Re: [Tagging] noexit=yes wiki page update

2014-06-02 Thread André Pirard

  
  
On 2014-06-01 21:17, Nelson A. de
  Oliveira wrote :


  Can't the wiki page be protected?


Would you do the updates, corrections and translation?
I think it should just be mandatory to prepare/publish any
substantial change on the sister mailing list.
It looks like I was the only one to do that for this page.
Preventing changes or just saying that one should be done without
doing it as it often happens is no progress.
The changes to this page have been "jerky" indeed, but the result is
a definite improvement owing to rolling up sleeves.

Cheers,


  

  André

  



  


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Re: [Tagging] noexit=yes wiki page update

2014-06-01 Thread Pieren
All arguments are on the table. Nothing new here but a recent change in the
wiki removed what was accepted as a compromise in april.
There is not conceptual mistake to say it's a cul-de-sac on the node or on
the way. Providing the information to QA tools or other contributors on the
last way or on the last node is equal. And please read again the comment
from Frederik Ramm:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-April/017405.html

I don't understand why some people are not accepting simple things and
facts : we have currently 198.000 noexit on nodes and 119.000 on ways. So
I'm not the only one who think differently than you and enforcing that on
the wiki is really offending the intelligence of these contributors.
And even if you fiddle the wiki, you will not enforce contributors to use
the tag on ways. What will be you next step ? delete the tag in all ways ?
And what will be next ? delete all "oneway=no" because it's useless most of
the time ?

Pieren

To André, I did not reply to your last message in our private conversation
because I was simply not able to understand your arguments, even with my
best efforts.
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Re: [Tagging] noexit=yes wiki page update

2014-06-01 Thread Florian Schäfer
Hi André,

Am 01.06.2014 20:49, schrieb André Pirard:
> High,
>
> During the discussion of this tag, it was said that a sure culprit for
> incorrect noexit=yes tags, is a misleading phrasing
>> Use the noexit=yes tag at the end of a highway
>> =* to indicate that
>> there is no possibility to travel further by any transport mode along
>> a formal path or route.
> and that, this sentence being the first one, they read just that and
> ignore the warnings and tag noexit=yes on any dead end as said.
>
> Hence, it was decided to put the warnings first and to rewrite that
> phrase in a more precise way:
>> Use the *noexit*=yes tag on the node Node
>>  at the end of a
>> highway =* to
>> indicate when doubtful that the impossibility to travel further by
>> any transport mode is perfectly normal, due to otherwise existing
>> road layout. 
>
> Without any warning, Floscher
>   put the misleading
> sentence back to the beginning, duplicating the correct version below.
> So, I removed that phrase to conform to the decision to explain that
> tag correctly instead of misleadingly.
Sorry, I didn't realize that it's an ambiguously worded duplicate of the
usage-paragraph. My main intention was to remove the parts, which said
that noexit=yes should be used on ways (which were added by you).
I thought there was sort of a consensus that it should not be tagged on
ways, so I simply changed the page. I didn't want to start another large
discussion like in March/April on Talk-de and Tagging (in which I both
participated), because I think most of the points were discussed
extensively there.
> He restored the icons that I had restored myself to "node only" but
> that Pieren had set to "node+way".
Do you find that good or bad?
> He also removed my sort of "acknowledgement" that noexit=yes is
> effectively being tagged on ways and which was the right place to say
> that it must *not* be done. I don't mind that removal at all, but you
> should bulk erase the noexit=yes tags on ways and explicitly say that
> they must not come back.
> When I see that first phrase, that the "When *not* to use" § does not
> mention "on ways" but on waterways and railways and that "Rendering"
> says "When tagged on a node..." I wonder if all those gotchas are not
> made on purpose.
I can't find any sentence in your version, that is saying, that the
tagging on ways "must *not* be done". It just said, that noexit=yes can
be tagged on ways and/or on nodes.
In my opinion the main purpose of the wiki is not to document tagging
trends, but best practices for tagging. I don't see the necessity for
adding a sentence stating that in the past it was used on ways, but if
you see this necessity, feel free to add such a sentence.
You are right, that the paragraph "When not to use" should mention the
ways. Thus I've changed the page again and added a sentence to that
paragraph, stating that usage on ways is discouraged.
>
> Well, I finally put this at the beginning:
>> Read important warnings first, then read tag syntax in paragraph
>> *Usage*.
>>
>> Do not use this tag on ways (only on nodes).
>>
> There's little excuses any more.
I've moved the second sentence to "When not to use", as you suggested above.
> Last thing: many people believe that road signs (and other funny
> things) are used by router software (and this is not encouraging at
> all to believe in OSM GPSes). They want to, and do, tag the dead-end
> road sign whose icon German dead-end sign
>  is used by
> this page to render the other road end. Expect that icon to pop up at
> both ends of the ways for added fun one of these days ;-)
This is mentioned and discouraged in the opening text.
> See you at the next noexit=yes on ways discussion.
See you,
Florian


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Re: [Tagging] noexit=yes wiki page update

2014-06-01 Thread Nelson A. de Oliveira
Can't the wiki page be protected?

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[Tagging] noexit=yes wiki page update

2014-06-01 Thread André Pirard
High,

During the discussion of this tag, it was said that a sure culprit for
incorrect noexit=yes tags, is a misleading phrasing
> Use the noexit=yes tag at the end of a highway
> =* to indicate that
> there is no possibility to travel further by any transport mode along
> a formal path or route.
and that, this sentence being the first one, they read just that and
ignore the warnings and tag noexit=yes on any dead end as said.

Hence, it was decided to put the warnings first and to rewrite that
phrase in a more precise way:
> Use the *noexit*=yes tag on the node Node
>  at the end of a
> highway =* to indicate
> when doubtful that the impossibility to travel further by any
> transport mode is perfectly normal, due to otherwise existing road
> layout. 

Without any warning, Floscher
  put the misleading
sentence back to the beginning, duplicating the correct version below.
So, I removed that phrase to conform to the decision to explain that tag
correctly instead of misleadingly.

He restored the icons that I had restored myself to "node only" but that
Pieren had set to "node+way".

He also removed my sort of "acknowledgement" that noexit=yes is
effectively being tagged on ways and which was the right place to say
that it must *not* be done. I don't mind that removal at all, but you
should bulk erase the noexit=yes tags on ways and explicitly say that
they must not come back.
When I see that first phrase, that the "When *not* to use" § does not
mention "on ways" but on waterways and railways and that "Rendering"
says "When tagged on a node..." I wonder if all those gotchas are not
made on purpose.

Well, I finally put this at the beginning:
> Read important warnings first, then read tag syntax in paragraph *Usage*.
>
> Do not use this tag on ways (only on nodes).
>
There's little excuses any more.

Last thing: many people believe that road signs (and other funny things)
are used by router software (and this is not encouraging at all to
believe in OSM GPSes). They want to, and do, tag the dead-end road sign
whose icon German dead-end sign
 is used by
this page to render the other road end. Expect that icon to pop up at
both ends of the ways for added fun one of these days ;-)

See you at the next noexit=yes on ways discussion.

André.












 
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