Re: [Tagging] patron saints
Isn't there an official dedication for a given japanese place of worship? Some has 1 official (main) dedication. Some has plural dedication as official. e.g. Katori Jingu Shrine = 経津主大神 (Futsunushi-no-Kami) http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%A6%99%E5%8F%96%E7%A5%9E%E5%AE%AE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katori_Shrine http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%B5%8C%E6%B4%A5%E4%B8%BB%E7%A5%9E http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futsunushi Wikidata Notability Each Japanese shrine has always their dedication god(s). Even pretty small shrine (such as wayside_shrine) has. If we use wikidata, Notability of Wikipedia might be problematic. Maybe it is better to make a brand new dataset for this purpose. (too heavy, indeed) Sorry that I missed your proposal. Do not mind :) Let's make better approach together! 2015-01-30 18:40 GMT+09:00 Jo winfi...@gmail.com: I think that when it gets really that complex, it's best to create a wikidata item for the shrine (and probably a Wikpedia page as well, I guess at least on ja.WP they are noteworthy enough to deserve a page), then simply refer to that using the wikidata tag itself. and maybe a comma delimited list of wikidata Q-refs in the dedication:wikidata tag, for people who want to rely on only OSM data for statistics purposes. Jo 2015-01-29 13:24 GMT+01:00 Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com: +1 to use wikidata. I had once thinking about same purpose. :) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/enshrine But many place of worship in Japanese have multiple dedication gods. And when we would like to express using semi-colon (;), multi-lingual approach would be fail into complex array. e.g. If a shrine dedicates 3 gods. in Japanese Kanji = 天照大御神; 月讀命; 素戔嗚尊 in English = Amaterasu-Oomikami; Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto; Susanoo-no-Mikoto And each gods has loc_name, alt_name, or alternated writings. I was thinking about dedication:N (like Addr:N) once, but it is a bit troublesome. 2015-01-29 2:10 GMT+09:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2015-01-28 17:12 GMT+01:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: Speaking of Vatican, i.e. Roman Catholic Church, Mary is Blessed, not Saint. Her title is Beata Virgo Maria (Beata Vergine Maria in Italian, Blessed Virgin Mary in English). She is an unordinary Blessed, as she and her feasts are more important than those of the Saints; anyway, Saint Mary is nothing but a popular name :-) Are you sure about this? Because I have heard about Santissima Madre di Dio (holiest mother of God) My reply was of course kidding. That, in Simone's terms, the Vatican use a popular language ;-) The fact is that in French, we use no such words as Blessed. the correct term in French is bienheureux ou bienheureuse, le qualificatif donné à une personne qui a été béatifiée http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9atification cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
I think that when it gets really that complex, it's best to create a wikidata item for the shrine (and probably a Wikpedia page as well, I guess at least on ja.WP they are noteworthy enough to deserve a page), then simply refer to that using the wikidata tag itself. and maybe a comma delimited list of wikidata Q-refs in the dedication:wikidata tag, for people who want to rely on only OSM data for statistics purposes. Jo 2015-01-29 13:24 GMT+01:00 Satoshi IIDA nyamp...@gmail.com: +1 to use wikidata. I had once thinking about same purpose. :) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/enshrine But many place of worship in Japanese have multiple dedication gods. And when we would like to express using semi-colon (;), multi-lingual approach would be fail into complex array. e.g. If a shrine dedicates 3 gods. in Japanese Kanji = 天照大御神; 月讀命; 素戔嗚尊 in English = Amaterasu-Oomikami; Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto; Susanoo-no-Mikoto And each gods has loc_name, alt_name, or alternated writings. I was thinking about dedication:N (like Addr:N) once, but it is a bit troublesome. 2015-01-29 2:10 GMT+09:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2015-01-28 17:12 GMT+01:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: Speaking of Vatican, i.e. Roman Catholic Church, Mary is Blessed, not Saint. Her title is Beata Virgo Maria (Beata Vergine Maria in Italian, Blessed Virgin Mary in English). She is an unordinary Blessed, as she and her feasts are more important than those of the Saints; anyway, Saint Mary is nothing but a popular name :-) Are you sure about this? Because I have heard about Santissima Madre di Dio (holiest mother of God) My reply was of course kidding. That, in Simone's terms, the Vatican use a popular language ;-) The fact is that in French, we use no such words as Blessed. the correct term in French is bienheureux ou bienheureuse, le qualificatif donné à une personne qui a été béatifiée http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9atification cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Satoshi IIDA mail: nyamp...@gmail.com twitter: @nyampire ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 29.01.2015 13:24, Satoshi IIDA wrote: +1 to use wikidata. I had once thinking about same purpose. :) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/enshrine Sorry that I missed your proposal. Indeed, it seems that the wikidata id makes the tagging of related enshrines superfluous, as the relation between main and related enshrines can be defined outside OSM. But many place of worship in Japanese have multiple dedication gods. And when we would like to express using semi-colon (;), multi-lingual approach would be fail into complex array. e.g. If a shrine dedicates 3 gods. in Japanese Kanji = 天照大御神; 月讀命; 素戔嗚尊 in English = Amaterasu-Oomikami; Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto; Susanoo-no-Mikoto And each gods has loc_name, alt_name, or alternated writings. I was thinking about dedication:N (like Addr:N) once, but it is a bit troublesome. There's a subtle difference to addrN: addr1:street, addr1:housenumber etc. need to be used in conjunction, while name:en, name:jp etc. are alternatives. Of course, local names or alternated spellings complicate things a lot. Isn't there an official dedication for a given japanese place of worship? We do have that for churches. It's one fixed wording (and spelling) for a given church, just like a birth certificate defines one fixed spelling for a given individual. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 28.01.2015 05:01, John F. Eldredge wrote: On 01/25/2015 10:29 AM, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: Probable all christian churches (buildings) and most chapels are dedicated to patron saints. E.g. the Basilica Sancti Petri (Saint Peter's Basilica) in Vatican City is obviously dedicated to Sanctus Petrus (Saint Peter). As in this example, the patron saint is often part of the common name of a church. But this example also shows that an automated extraction is almost impossible. This depends upon which branch of Christianity you are talking about. Many Protestant denominations do not recognize the existence of saints in the Roman Catholic sense of no-longer-living humans who serve as intermediaries between living humans and God. We colloquially refer to some of the early church leaders as saints, referring to Saint Peter or Saint Paul, but feel that prayers should be directed to God, not to any lesser being. That's interesting, because I always thought of christianism as a polytheistic religion. Now there seems to be a consensus to use a dedication=* key, which certainly works for monotheists as well. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 28.01.2015 12:34, Andy Mabbett wrote: There are sometimes more than one saint with the same name, This is where Wikidata tags provide useful disambiguation. You can either tag with: wikidata = Q12512 (resolves to https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q12512 ; the item for Saint Peter's Basilica) from which you can determine that the patron saint (P417) is Q33923 ( https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q33923 ; equivalent the articles on St Peter in various languages, such as, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter ) Or you could tag more explicitly, with patron-saint:wikidata = Q33923 The reference to wikidata has already been suggested elsewhere in this thread. It currently comes down to dedication=* for the full name(s) in local language, dedication:en=* etc. for translations, and dedication:wikidata=* for the wikidata code(s). -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 25 January 2015 at 16:29, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: patron saints. E.g. the Basilica Sancti Petri (Saint Peter's Basilica) in Vatican City is obviously dedicated to Sanctus Petrus (Saint Peter). There are sometimes more than one saint with the same name, This is where Wikidata tags provide useful disambiguation. You can either tag with: wikidata = Q12512 (resolves to https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q12512 ; the item for Saint Peter's Basilica) from which you can determine that the patron saint (P417) is Q33923 ( https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q33923 ; equivalent the articles on St Peter in various languages, such as, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter ) Or you could tag more explicitly, with patron-saint:wikidata = Q33923 You can find the Wikidata ID from a Wikipedia article, in any language, in its left-hand column, as a link labelled Wikidata item. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
2015-01-27 11:42 GMT+01:00 Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com: Speaking of Vatican, i.e. Roman Catholic Church, Mary is Blessed, not Saint. Her title is Beata Virgo Maria (Beata Vergine Maria in Italian, Blessed Virgin Mary in English). She is an unordinary Blessed, as she and her feasts are more important than those of the Saints; anyway, Saint Mary is nothing but a popular name :-) Are you sure about this? Because I have heard about Santissima Madre di Dio (holiest mother of God) There are also several other St. Marys, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Goretti cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 28/01/2015 12:43, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
2015-01-27 11:42 GMT+01:00 Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com
mailto:simone.savi...@gmail.com:
Speaking of Vatican, i.e. Roman Catholic Church, Mary is Blessed,
not Saint. Her title is Beata Virgo Maria (Beata Vergine Maria in
Italian, Blessed Virgin Mary in English). She is an unordinary
Blessed, as she and her feasts are more important than those of
the Saints; anyway, Saint Mary is nothing but a popular name :-)
Are you sure about this? Because I have heard about Santissima Madre
di Dio (holiest mother of God)
There are also several other St. Marys, e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Goretti
Describing someone as 'holy' is not the same as giving them the title
'saint'. The very fact that the superlative is used ('santissima')
somewhat suggests that this is not the regular title meaning 'saint'.
Nevertheless, there are many Church of England churches dedicated to 'St
Mary the Virgin', so she seems to have been promoted to sainthood by the
Anglican church! In Catholic circles, 'Our Lady' or its equivalent is
also a common dedication.
The confusion in the use of Saint is noted by the Oxford English Dictionary:
'†3. Prefixed to various common nouns (in collocations taken over from
Latin and French), esp. Charity, Cross, Spirit, Trinity. Obs.
'Sometimes abbreviated as in A. 1.
'In dedications of churches there occur St. Cross, St. Faith, St.
Saviour, St. Sepulchre.'
--
Steve
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Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 26 January 2015 at 00:39, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: maybe using Wikidata should be considered through an additional tag such as dedication:wikidata=Q33923 for Saint Peter https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q33923 I dislike these numbers. They are not human readable, and typos will not be noticed. So have editing software fetch the title from Wikidata; it has an open and free API. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 2015-01-28 13:43, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote : 2015-01-27 11:42 GMT+01:00 Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com mailto:simone.savi...@gmail.com: On 2015-01-27 11:25, André Pirard wrote : You should urgently warn the Vatican https://www.google.be/search?q=site:va%20%22sainte+vierge+marie%22oq=site%3Ava+%22sainte%20vierge%20marie%22 ! Speaking of Vatican, i.e. Roman Catholic Church, Mary is Blessed, not Saint. Her title is Beata Virgo Maria (Beata Vergine Maria in Italian, Blessed Virgin Mary in English). She is an unordinary Blessed, as she and her feasts are more important than those of the Saints; anyway, Saint Mary is nothing but a popular name :-) Are you sure about this? Because I have heard about Santissima Madre di Dio (holiest mother of God) My reply was of course kidding. That, in Simone's terms, the Vatican use a popular language ;-) The fact is that in French, we use no such words as Blessed. We use saint(e) as a noun or as an adjective. La sainte Vierge Marie (adjective) means blessed Mary. Sainte Marie (noun) is normally not said (except in the Hail Mary... prayer ;-) , in which it's an adjective) and would mean that Mary is a saint. Un saint (noun) is someone who has been canonized https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonization. Un saint homme (adjective) was not (necessarily), he is virtuous. Santissima is an adjective. Holy Mary was never canonized (it would be seen as a joke). But what about Saint Joseph, sort of half one, Simone (no (more) comment from me ;-) ). Bless you, André. There are also several other St. Marys, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Goretti cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 28/01/2015 16:12, André Pirard wrote: The fact is that in French, we use no such words as Blessed. The French equivalent is 'Bienheureux/se'. I don't suppose it's ever used of the Virgin Mary, though. -- Steve --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
2015-01-28 17:12 GMT+01:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2015-01-28 13:43, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote : 2015-01-27 11:42 GMT+01:00 Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com: On 2015-01-27 11:25, André Pirard wrote : You should urgently warn the Vatican https://www.google.be/search?q=site:va%20%22sainte+vierge+marie%22oq=site%3Ava+%22sainte%20vierge%20marie%22 ! Speaking of Vatican, i.e. Roman Catholic Church, Mary is Blessed, not Saint. Her title is Beata Virgo Maria (Beata Vergine Maria in Italian, Blessed Virgin Mary in English). She is an unordinary Blessed, as she and her feasts are more important than those of the Saints; anyway, Saint Mary is nothing but a popular name :-) Are you sure about this? Because I have heard about Santissima Madre di Dio (holiest mother of God) My reply was of course kidding. That, in Simone's terms, the Vatican use a popular language ;-) The fact is that in French, we use no such words as Blessed. What about sacré-coeur? Jo ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
2015-01-28 17:12 GMT+01:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: Speaking of Vatican, i.e. Roman Catholic Church, Mary is Blessed, not Saint. Her title is Beata Virgo Maria (Beata Vergine Maria in Italian, Blessed Virgin Mary in English). She is an unordinary Blessed, as she and her feasts are more important than those of the Saints; anyway, Saint Mary is nothing but a popular name :-) Are you sure about this? Because I have heard about Santissima Madre di Dio (holiest mother of God) My reply was of course kidding. That, in Simone's terms, the Vatican use a popular language ;-) The fact is that in French, we use no such words as Blessed. the correct term in French is bienheureux ou bienheureuse, le qualificatif donné à une personne qui a été béatifiée http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9atification cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
2015-01-26 15:28 GMT+01:00 Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com: On 26/01/2015 00:01, Simone Saviolo wrote: http://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=patron_saint%3Ait%3D*+globalR I swear, I would think that there were more of these. patron_saint:it seems to be a common suggestion for this purpose in Italian discussions about churches, I really thought we had more of them. Anyway, as you can see there are a few already. I see at least one patron_saint:it is not a saint: Spirito Santo ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/58152285). To be correct, the Virgin Mary isn't a saint either ;-) Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
And dedication was proposed. As one of the first comments in this thread. Then it was repeated when dedication:wikidata was mentioned. Jo ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
Le 27/01/2015 11:55, Daniel Koć a écrit : W dniu 27.01.2015 11:25, André Pirard napisał(a): On 2015-01-27 09:51, Simone Saviolo wrote : To be correct, the Virgin Mary isn't a saint either ;-) You should urgently warn the Vatican [3] ! ;-) It doesn't really matter anyway. =} Someone has already mentioned on this thread that patron may not be a person at all (Jesus's heart is not exactly the same as Jesus) and sometimes it is set as a commemoration of an important event. So I think we need more general name of the key than patron, because there are also other institutions and objects (for example many streets and schools, parks, even some allotments) devoted in some way to someone/something. And dedication was proposed. -- FrViPofm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 2015-01-27 09:51, Simone Saviolo wrote : 2015-01-26 15:28 GMT+01:00 Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com mailto:doerr.step...@gmail.com: On 26/01/2015 00:01, Simone Saviolo wrote: http://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=patron_saint%3Ait%3D*+globalR I swear, I would think that there were more of these. patron_saint:it seems to be a common suggestion for this purpose in Italian discussions about churches, I really thought we had more of them. Anyway, as you can see there are a few already. I see at least one patron_saint:it is not a saint: Spirito Santo (http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/58152285). To be correct, the Virgin Mary isn't a saint either ;-) https://www.google.be/search?q=site:va%20%22sainte+vierge+marie%22oq=site%3Ava+%22sainte%20vierge%20marie%22 You should urgently warn the Vatican https://www.google.be/search?q=site:va%20%22sainte+vierge+marie%22oq=site%3Ava+%22sainte%20vierge%20marie%22 ! ;-) Ave André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
2015-01-27 11:25 GMT+01:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2015-01-27 09:51, Simone Saviolo wrote : 2015-01-26 15:28 GMT+01:00 Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com: On 26/01/2015 00:01, Simone Saviolo wrote: http://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=patron_saint%3Ait%3D*+globalR I swear, I would think that there were more of these. patron_saint:it seems to be a common suggestion for this purpose in Italian discussions about churches, I really thought we had more of them. Anyway, as you can see there are a few already. I see at least one patron_saint:it is not a saint: Spirito Santo ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/58152285). To be correct, the Virgin Mary isn't a saint either ;-) https://www.google.be/search?q=site:va%20%22sainte+vierge+marie%22oq=site%3Ava+%22sainte%20vierge%20marie%22 You should urgently warn the Vatican https://www.google.be/search?q=site:va%20%22sainte+vierge+marie%22oq=site%3Ava+%22sainte%20vierge%20marie%22 ! ;-) Speaking of Vatican, i.e. Roman Catholic Church, Mary is Blessed, not Saint. Her title is Beata Virgo Maria (Beata Vergine Maria in Italian, Blessed Virgin Mary in English). She is an unordinary Blessed, as she and her feasts are more important than those of the Saints; anyway, Saint Mary is nothing but a popular name :-) Regards, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
W dniu 27.01.2015 11:25, André Pirard napisał(a): On 2015-01-27 09:51, Simone Saviolo wrote : To be correct, the Virgin Mary isn't a saint either ;-) You should urgently warn the Vatican [3] ! ;-) It doesn't really matter anyway. =} Someone has already mentioned on this thread that patron may not be a person at all (Jesus's heart is not exactly the same as Jesus) and sometimes it is set as a commemoration of an important event. So I think we need more general name of the key than patron, because there are also other institutions and objects (for example many streets and schools, parks, even some allotments) devoted in some way to someone/something. -- Mambałaga ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 01/25/2015 10:29 AM, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: Probable all christian churches (buildings) and most chapels are dedicated to patron saints. E.g. the Basilica Sancti Petri (Saint Peter's Basilica) in Vatican City is obviously dedicated to Sanctus Petrus (Saint Peter). As in this example, the patron saint is often part of the common name of a church. But this example also shows that an automated extraction is almost impossible. This depends upon which branch of Christianity you are talking about. Many Protestant denominations do not recognize the existence of saints in the Roman Catholic sense of no-longer-living humans who serve as intermediaries between living humans and God. We colloquially refer to some of the early church leaders as saints, referring to Saint Peter or Saint Paul, but feel that prayers should be directed to God, not to any lesser being. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
2015-01-25 23:30 GMT+01:00 Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com: If this tag is to be useful (assuming it is the sort of thing OSM should record), maybe using Wikidata should be considered through an additional tag such as dedication:wikidata=Q33923 for Saint Peter https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q33923 +1 I was already using name:etymology:wikidata=* but dedication:wikidata=* is probably better. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 2015-01-26 01:39, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: On 25.01.2015 23:30, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: On 1/26/15, Lukas Sommer sommer...@gmail.com wrote: And I think it makes sense to define explicitly some things in the documentation. Things like – use always (or use never) “Saint”: “Saint Paul” vs “Paul”. That's a good point. In German, there are name variations for many saints, e.g. Nepomuk = Johannes Nepomuk. There are name variations even for the word saint: Sankt, St., Heiliger, Hl., none. But AFAIK the official dedication for a given church is always a fixed version of the name. Of course that breaks comparability. Maybe use the Wikidata-ID instead? patron_saint:wikidata=Q. If you need the names in whatever language you want you can get it from wikidata in a second step. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
If this tag is to be useful (assuming it is the sort of thing OSM should record), maybe using Wikidata should be considered through an additional tag such as dedication:wikidata=Q33923 for Saint Peter https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q33923 I also think we should add wikidata tags right away (possibly in addition to human readable info in the local language). Whether you dislike those numbers or not, it can't be denied that querying for them is extremely efficient and universal. I do hope that one day JOSM and iD will simply show a human readable tag next to them, possibly in the user's language, so detecting errors visually becomes easier. Polyglot ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 26.01.15 08:37, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I am not sure if you are kidding here, but obviously this is referring to a certain episode in the life of Mary, mother of Jesus, and not to a saint called Heimsuchung with his last name. I answer in German because it's too hard for me to translate all this terms. Eine römisch-katholische Kirche wird geweiht. Sie (die Kirche) erhält einen Weihenamen, der an einen/mehrere Heiligen erinnert. Das ist das Patrozinium und ein Hochfest der jeweiligen Kirche. Der Name kann ein oder mehrere Heilige sein, es gibt auch Alle Heiligen Kirchen, es gibt Dreifaltigkeitskirchen, es können auch Mysterien (liturgisch gefeierte Ereignisse dieses Heiligen) sein, also z.B. Mariae Empfängnis (die Empfängnis der Maria), Mariae Himmelfahrt, Mariae Heimsuchung*), Christi Himmelfahrt, ... Die Lateranbasilika z.B. heißt Arcibasilica del Santissimo Salvatore e dei Santi Giovanni Battista ed Evangelista in Laterano (lat. Archibasilica Sanctissimi Salvatoris et Sanctorum Iohannis Baptistae et Evangelistae in Laterano). Back to OSM, this should be a *..._name* tag, it should be a different name than the name= Tag, which should give a commonly used name (Pfarrkirche soundso o.ä.). This ..._name= value should be given in local language (if not indicated with a language suffix). The key I use is *holy_name=* which indicates that it is the Weihename, a sanctified name, a somewhat holy name. That's what I'd suggest. But keep in mind: it's just an alternate name, though something special. /al *) To give just one link: These are the Mariä-Heimsuchung-Kirchen in the German Wiki: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari%C3%A4-Heimsuchung-Kirche What is Mariä Heimsuchung (Visitatio Mariæ) is described in a link there. Probably all the above terms can be found in the German Wiki, if somebody is interested. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 25/01/2015 16:29, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: I'd like to suggest a new key for patron saints. Certainly patron_saint=* or just patron=*. There are some occurrences in Taginfo, although most values of patron=* do not look like saints. holy_name=* has also been suggested, but this sounds to me as if the name were holy. It's actually the saint who is holy. patronage=* may be ambiguous. patrociny=* seems to be an extinct word. In English, we often call this the 'dedication' of the church. This can include things like Holy Cross (Sacré Cœur) which are obviously not saints. -- Steve --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On Jan 25, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Steve Doerr wrote: In English, we often call this the 'dedication' of the church. This can include things like Holy Cross (Sacré Cœur) which are obviously not saints. -- Steve I know nothing about who churches are dedicated to, but wouldn't Sacré Cœur translate to Sacred Heart rather than Holy Cross?___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On Sun, 2015-01-25 at 16:20 +, Steve Doerr wrote: On 25/01/2015 16:29, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: I'd like to suggest a new key for patron saints. Certainly patron_saint=* or just patron=*. There are some occurrences in Taginfo, although most values of patron=* do not look like saints. holy_name=* has also been suggested, but this sounds to me as if the name were holy. It's actually the saint who is holy. patronage=* may be ambiguous. patrociny=* seems to be an extinct word. In English, we often call this the 'dedication' of the church. This can include things like Holy Cross (Sacré Cœur) which are obviously not saints. Many are dedicated All Saints, so will saints=all be used there? Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 25/01/2015 16:27, Tod Fitch wrote: On Jan 25, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Steve Doerr wrote: In English, we often call this the 'dedication' of the church. This can include things like Holy Cross (Sacré Cœur) which are obviously not saints. -- Steve I know nothing about who churches are dedicated to, but wouldn't Sacré Cœur translate to Sacred Heart rather than Holy Cross? Doh! Yes. Steve --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] patron saints
Probable all christian churches (buildings) and most chapels are dedicated to patron saints. E.g. the Basilica Sancti Petri (Saint Peter's Basilica) in Vatican City is obviously dedicated to Sanctus Petrus (Saint Peter). As in this example, the patron saint is often part of the common name of a church. But this example also shows that an automated extraction is almost impossible. There are also many churches whose common names do not include the patron saint at all. E.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/30344133 is usually called Bergkirche or Haydnkirche, but the patron saint is Maria Heimsuchung. Well, I don't know if a saint named Maria Heimsuchung really existed, but the church is dedicated to her, so it's a patron saint at least in an abstract sense. There has been no tagging rules so far. Some churches have name=common_name + alt_name=patron, some have it the opposite way, some have the patron or the common name omitted. I'd like to suggest a new key for patron saints. Certainly patron_saint=* or just patron=*. There are some occurrences in Taginfo, although most values of patron=* do not look like saints. holy_name=* has also been suggested, but this sounds to me as if the name were holy. It's actually the saint who is holy. patronage=* may be ambiguous. patrociny=* seems to be an extinct word. What do you think? -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 1/26/15, Lukas Sommer sommer...@gmail.com wrote: I think this can be a useful new tag. And I think it makes sense to define explicitly some things in the documentation. Things like – use always (or use never) “Saint”: “Saint Paul” vs “Paul”. – write the name of the dedication always in the local language (Or always in latin? Could become very complicate ;-) The clearer these things are defined from the very beginning, the more useful will the tag be. If you are going to use the local language in this tag, then the sort of GIS queries suggested (most popular saint in a region, etc.) would not be possible. In addition, do you tag Paul or Paul the Apostle or Simon Peter? Do you tag Joan or Joan of Arc? If this tag is to be useful (assuming it is the sort of thing OSM should record), maybe using Wikidata should be considered through an additional tag such as dedication:wikidata=Q33923 for Saint Peter https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q33923 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On Jan 26, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Vincent Pottier vpott...@gmail.com wrote: dedication +1 If we’re going to make something that goes with the religion tag, we might want to make it more universal. There are different shrines for different kinds of buddhas, Different various shinto gods, and something having to do with the “7 gods” (of which I have no idea where they come from) here in Japan. There are statues, shrines, temples, and other building/monuments that are not only for a certain religion and denomination, but to a specific deity / person / thing . having a tag to particularly show who/what is enshrined there seems to be a good idea. This might be flexible enough to handle some secular things as well, like a stature commemorating a certain event/person/thing that is not directly mentioned in it’s name. There might also be a need for specialty or something. Many shrines are known for specific things - go here to pray for a good birth, go here to pray for health - there is even a shrine for “test taking” near Tokyo University. People purchase charms there just for their kids / students who are taking entrance exams (to high school / college). something with tag values such as =fertility =luck =marriage. But this is a nebulous idea. But as many shrines are dedicated to a deity for that purpose, this might be redundant information if you understand the deity worshipped there. Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
Am 25.01.2015 um 17:29 schrieb Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: but the patron saint is Maria Heimsuchung. Well, I don't know if a saint named Maria Heimsuchung really existed, but the church is dedicated to her, so it's a patron saint at least in an abstract sense. I am not sure if you are kidding here, but obviously this is referring to a certain episode in the life of Mary, mother of Jesus, and not to a saint called Heimsuchung with his last name. I generally agree that patron saints merit tagging (in catholic context), but stuff is more complicated: some churches have several saints to which they are dedicated (shall the tag contain a list? Do we use tags like alt_saint?), either alternatively or together (eg Peter and Paul). Also different saints might have the same name and different names might refer to the same saint, so using something like wikipedia/ wikidata seems to make sense (but requires external resources to be useful). Or use the local name in its longest form (eg including the home town like San Francesco d'Asissi), and add translations optionally to subspaces like saints:it? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 2015-01-26 01:39, Friedrich Volkmann wrote : On 25.01.2015 23:30, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: On 1/26/15, Lukas Sommer sommer...@gmail.com wrote: And I think it makes sense to define explicitly some things in the documentation. Things like – use always (or use never) “Saint”: “Saint Paul” vs “Paul”. That's a good point. In German, there are name variations for many saints, e.g. Nepomuk = Johannes Nepomuk. There are name variations even for the word saint: Sankt, St., Heiliger, Hl., none. But AFAIK the official dedication for a given church is always a fixed version of the name. Of course that breaks comparability. And it make sense too to also say which tag this comment is about. Please leave the name=* tag alone as it is: the words by which something is referred to in local language (a definition missing from Key:name http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name and Names http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names which as usual in this wiki define name as the name and even as the default name, like a survey being a survey, causing everybody to have his own interpretation of it and discussions like this). If you want to keep in line with the wiki, that is Names http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names, add a something_name=* to it for your purpose. And if you want to do unlike the wiki, don't forget to specify what to do when there are several patron saints like name=Église Saints-Hermès-et-Alexandre ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 2015-01-25 17:29, Friedrich Volkmann wrote : Probable all christian churches (buildings) and most chapels are dedicated to patron saints. E.g. the Basilica Sancti Petri (Saint Peter's Basilica) in Vatican City is obviously dedicated to Sanctus Petrus (Saint Peter). As in this example, the patron saint is often part of the common name of a church. But this example also shows that an automated extraction is almost impossible. There are also many churches whose common names do not include the patron saint at all. E.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/30344133 is usually called Bergkirche or Haydnkirche, but the patron saint is Maria Heimsuchung. Well, I don't know if a saint named Maria Heimsuchung really existed, but the church is dedicated to her, so it's a patron saint at least in an abstract sense. There has been no tagging rules so far. Some churches have name=common_name + alt_name=patron, some have it the opposite way, some have the patron or the common name omitted. I'd like to suggest a new key for patron saints. Certainly patron_saint=* or just patron=*. There are some occurrences in Taginfo, although most values of patron=* do not look like saints. holy_name=* has also been suggested, but this sounds to me as if the name were holy. It's actually the saint who is holy. patronage=* may be ambiguous. patrociny=* seems to be an extinct word. What do you think? I think that, when they have a name=* tag (when the mapper cared to find it, easy, they're all here (unités pastorales) http://liege.diocese.be/), almost all churches around here are tagged with the dedication. I wonder why no one imported them already (I recommended the clergy to list a street address so that believers knew where to go;-) ). So, someone volunteering to change all that to another tag and only when it's a dedication would have a terrible job on his hand. If I came across a case like yours (usual name definitely not the dedication) I would simply use name=Haydnkirche Heilige Maria Heimsuchung or use alt_name=Heilige ... There's no need to have as many variations of alt_name as the sorts of names that can be. André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 25.01.2015 19:07, André Pirard wrote: I think that, when they have a name=* tag (when the mapper cared to find it, easy, they're all here (unités pastorales) http://liege.diocese.be/), almost all churches around here are tagged with the dedication. Looking at Liège in OSM, I see names like: name=Cathédrale Saint-Paul name=Collégiale Saint-Jean name=Église Saint Pierre etc. So they are not exactly tagged with the dedication, but the dedication is part of the name. So, someone volunteering to change all that to another tag and only when it's a dedication would have a terrible job on his hand. The new tag is optional, so there is no need to do that work. However, if someone happens to do it, reports like show me all churches dedicated to Saint Paul or show me the most popular dedication in that region or show me the region where Saint Paul is most popular become possible. If I came across a case like yours (usual name definitely not the dedication) I would simply use name=Haydnkirche Heilige Maria Heimsuchung This would be simple, but wrong, because that is not the name. or use alt_name=Heilige ... This is how we have done it so far, but strictly speaking it is wrong too, because Heilige Maria Heimsuchung is not the name of the church, it's the name of the dedication. Kirche zur Heiligen Maria Heimsuchung could be a name, but then again, the tag value is unusuable for reporting. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
http://overpass-turbo.eu/?w=patron_saint%3Ait%3D*+globalR I swear, I would think that there were more of these. patron_saint:it seems to be a common suggestion for this purpose in Italian discussions about churches, I really thought we had more of them. Anyway, as you can see there are a few already. Regards, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
On 25.01.2015 23:30, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: On 1/26/15, Lukas Sommer sommer...@gmail.com wrote: And I think it makes sense to define explicitly some things in the documentation. Things like – use always (or use never) “Saint”: “Saint Paul” vs “Paul”. That's a good point. In German, there are name variations for many saints, e.g. Nepomuk = Johannes Nepomuk. There are name variations even for the word saint: Sankt, St., Heiliger, Hl., none. But AFAIK the official dedication for a given church is always a fixed version of the name. Of course that breaks comparability. – write the name of the dedication always in the local language (Or always in latin? Could become very complicate ;-) It's the same as with species=*, plant_community=* etc. The values of theses tags are latin, too. Mappers get used to them quickly. Names in other languages can be given as species:en=*etc., although the benefit of these translations remains unclear. If we use the local language for the value of dedication=*, it's like name=*. Again there's name:en etc. So we may think about dedication:language=* in any case, but I'm not sure about the language of dedication=* itself. The clearer these things are defined from the very beginning, the more useful will the tag be. If you are going to use the local language in this tag, then the sort of GIS queries suggested (most popular saint in a region, etc.) would not be possible. In addition, do you tag Paul or Paul the Apostle or Simon Peter? Do you tag Joan or Joan of Arc? If this tag is to be useful (assuming it is the sort of thing OSM should record), maybe using Wikidata should be considered through an additional tag such as dedication:wikidata=Q33923 for Saint Peter https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q33923 I dislike these numbers. They are not human readable, and typos will not be noticed. Can we find out how many distinct dedications do exist? Maybe we can create a list and then visualize it and get inspiration. That list can subsequently be used for the dedication=* wiki page. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
I think this can be a useful new tag. And I think it makes sense to define explicitly some things in the documentation. Things like – use always (or use never) “Saint”: “Saint Paul” vs “Paul”. – write the name of the dedication always in the local language (Or always in latin? Could become very complicate ;-) The clearer these things are defined from the very beginning, the more useful will the tag be. Cheers ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] patron saints
Le 25/01/2015 17:20, Steve Doerr a écrit : In English, we often call this the 'dedication' of the church. This can include things like Holy Cross (Sacré Cœur) which are obviously not saints. I would prefer the dedication rather than a patron, for, as said above, the dedication may be a mystery and not a saint. I France, we have exposed the rules for including the dedication into the name and other elements composing this name. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Tag:amenity%3Dplace_of_worship#Nom_et_d.C3.A9dicace_des_.C3.A9glises_d.C3.A9di.C3.A9es_au_culte_catholique -- FrViPofm ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
