Re: [Tagging] power lines/cables power

2020-11-19 Thread François Lacombe
Hi André

It's great to have such a discussion here as to move forward on power
routing.
Answers below

Le mer. 18 nov. 2020 à 02:38, André Pirard  a
écrit :

>
> Haille François,
>
> Merci pour ta réponse.
> So, I was told that 7,5 GW rating by an ALEGrO engineer but I didn't see
> it on OSM. He didn't mention 1 GW.
>

7.5 GW is really huge for a single system.
This : https://www.amprion.net/Grid-expansion/Our-Projects/ALEGrO/ states
1000 MW only.


> So I looked all over the wiki.
> Passing an accepted proposal that should say that it is overridden by
> another one, typical wiki, I saw no mention of power rating except for
> generators. And that cable has dead ends.
>
Rating was proposed for power transformers
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Transformer_extension_proposal
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtransformer#Tagging
Generators got an output value with generator:output:electricity

Which proposal is overridden please?

And in the proposal you show, I see no mention of power rating either, esp.
> in the relation.
>
That's right, the proposal introduces a new relation formalism to put
properties on power systems (ALEGrO is a power system, composed of a line
and other components)
We will be able to add ratings, like frequency or operating voltage on that
system.


> A typical OSM browser needs to be an expert already to know how to look at
> tags and do so.
> Let alone guessing that what he does not find could be in a relation.
>
We're not responsible for world complexity and we need reliable models to
describe what actually exists.
Editors, tools, render, documentation are here to help to do so.
i.e. that's counterproductive to make things more intuitive than they
actually are for sake of edition ease.

Furthermore, I don't see at all how a relation could indicate the
> operational *power ratings of branches*.
>
It can't indeed.
It's the same as voltage: some branches could be designed up to 400 kV but
the whole system will be operating at 220 kV
So power lines branches will get voltage=40 and the system relation
will get voltage=22
Is this difference clearer?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Power_routing_proposal#Splitting_logical_from_physical_infrastructure

Puting system rating on physical route is the same as marking public
transport buses capacity on osm highway ways
We actually have public transport relations for that


> All in all, I continue to believe that a cable or line should indicate
> their power ratings.
>
Yes, but that's not what we discuss about here since ALEGrO is a power
system
Public documentation will give the system rating, not the cable design in
detail (I think but change my mind)

power:maximum=7.5 GW
> power:used=1 GW
>

That's a nice try thank you
Those values should be on two separate osm features according to what we
intend to do regarding power systems
I have doubts on the sense of "used": used values change every second.
Don't we deal with operated value instead?


> Quite self-describing and friendly.
> Please discuss this matter and warn me of any change.
>

Power routing proposal is still in RFC and its author is waiting for API
0.7 to start voting.
It's a pity since this topic deserve a clear and reliable tagging to
provide a better understanding to everyone
Our discussion (and many before and certainly many in the future) help to
refine wording and improve docs and explanations

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] power lines/cables power

2020-11-17 Thread André Pirard

  
  
On 15/11/2020 19.17, François Lacombe
  wrote:


  
  
  
Le dim. 15 nov. 2020 à 16:45,
  André Pirard  a
  écrit :


   Hi,

A group of friends were discussing the first electricity
power link between Germany and Belgium.
And I was kinda proud to show them this
where the only line
  across the border clearly shows.
Well done, guys (and gals?)!

  

  Way 578137663
  Tags 7
  
cables=1
circuits=1
frequency=0
location=underground
name=Alegro Interconnector
power=cable
voltage=32
  

  

Their concern was interstate power transfers and a maximum
of 7,5 GW was mentioned (more than the 6 GW Belgian
deprecated nuclear capacity, effectively running at 4,5 GW).
So then I was surprised that a power cable or line does not
indicate that power.
I looked trough the wiki and all I found as power was an
unsuitable generator:rating:...
So, as power:power=* seems weird, I added power:maximum=7.5
  GW, allowing for power:mean=* or he like.
As I don't want to get into propositions, I let specialists
discuss that.
Let me know if and how I should change that tag.

Envoyé de mon immobile Thunderbird, et sans virus
non plus grâce à seulement Ubuntu, 

All the best, 


  

  André.

  


  

On 15/11/2020 19.17, François Lacombe
  wrote:



  Hi André,
  
  
  That's an interesting question.
  Power transformers can have rating=* to state how many
power they can transmit.
  I see no problem to add it to a power relation like the
one involving the line you mention
  https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8193755#map=11/50.7528/6.0606
  
  
  Can you explain the difference between your value (7.5
GW) and the value already visible on the relation (1 GW)
please?
  
  
  Difference between rating on a power=line/cable and
rating on a power relation is a follow:
  - On a line/cable, it's the maximum capacity the
line/cable is designed for
  - On a relation, it's the rating the whole link is
operating at
  
  
  
  Power circuits relations :
  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_routing_proposal
  
  
  All the best
  
  
  François
  


   

  


Haille François,

Merci pour ta réponse.
So, I was told that 7,5 GW rating by an ALEGrO engineer but I didn't
see it on OSM. He didn't mention 1 GW.
So I looked all over the wiki.
Passing an accepted proposal that should say that it is overridden
by another one, typical wiki, I saw no mention of power rating
except for generators. And that cable has dead ends.
And in the proposal you show, I see no mention of power rating
either, esp. in the relation.

A typical OSM browser needs to be an expert already to know how to
look at tags and do so.
Let alone guessing that what he does not find could be in a
relation.
Furthermore, I don't see at all how a relation could indicate the
operational power ratings of branches.

All in all, I continue to believe that a cable or line should
indicate their power ratings.
Let's be nice to the map users who were refused
  a F1=Help by Tom Hughes.
So, so, so, I have made the cable nice tags:

power:maximum=7.5 GW
power:used=1 GW

Quite self-describing and friendly.
Please discuss this matter and warn me of any change.

All the best,

Cordialement,



  

  André.

  


  


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Re: [Tagging] power lines/cables power

2020-11-15 Thread François Lacombe
Hi André,

That's an interesting question.
Power transformers can have rating=* to state how many power they can
transmit.
I see no problem to add it to a power relation like the one involving the
line you mention
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/8193755#map=11/50.7528/6.0606

Can you explain the difference between your value (7.5 GW) and the value
already visible on the relation (1 GW) please?

Difference between rating on a power=line/cable and rating on a power
relation is a follow:
- On a line/cable, it's the maximum capacity the line/cable is designed for
- On a relation, it's the rating the whole link is operating at

Power circuits relations :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_routing_proposal

All the best

François

Le dim. 15 nov. 2020 à 16:45, André Pirard  a
écrit :

> Hi,
>
> A group of friends were discussing the first electricity power link
> between Germany and Belgium.
> And I was kinda proud to show them this
> 
> where the only line across the border
>  clearly shows.
> Well done, guys (and gals?)!
>
> Way 578137663  Tags 7
>
>- cables=1
>- circuits=1
>- frequency=0
>- location=underground
>- name=Alegro Interconnector
>- power=cable
>- voltage=32
>
> Their concern was interstate power transfers and a maximum of 7,5 GW was
> mentioned (more than the 6 GW Belgian deprecated nuclear capacity,
> effectively running at 4,5 GW).
> So then I was surprised that a power cable or line does not indicate that
> power.
> I looked trough the wiki and all I found as power was an unsuitable
> generator:rating:...
> So, as power:power=* seems weird, I added *power:maximum=7.5 GW*,
> allowing for power:mean=* or he like.
> As I don't want to get into propositions, I let specialists discuss that.
> Let me know if and how I should change that tag.
>
> Envoyé de mon immobile Thunderbird, et *sans virus* non plus grâce à
> seulement Ubuntu,
>
> All the best,
>
> André.
>
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[Tagging] power lines/cables power

2020-11-15 Thread André Pirard

Hi,

A group of friends were discussing the first electricity power link 
between Germany and Belgium.
And I was kinda proud to show them this 
 
where the only line across the border 
 clearly shows.

Well done, guys (and gals?)!



Way 578137663 


  Tags 7

  * cables=1
  * circuits=1
  * frequency=0
  * location=underground
  * name=Alegro Interconnector
  * power=cable
  * voltage=32

Their concern was interstate power transfers and a maximum of 7,5 GW was 
mentioned (more than the 6 GW Belgian deprecated nuclear capacity, 
effectively running at 4,5 GW).
So then I was surprised that a power cable or line does not indicate 
that power.
I looked trough the wiki and all I found as power was an unsuitable 
generator:rating:...
So, as power:power=* seems weird, I added /power:maximum=7.5 GW/, 
allowing for power:mean=* or he like.

As I don't want to get into propositions, I let specialists discuss that.
Let me know if and how I should change that tag.

Envoyé de mon immobile Thunderbird, et *sans virus* non plus grâce à 
seulement Ubuntu,


All the best,

André.


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