Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-09 Thread Tom Pfeifer

I appreciate amenity=place_of_mourning.

tom

On 09.11.2020 10:15, woll...@posteo.de wrote:
OK, so I haven't really done all the counting, but my impression is that amenity=place_of_mourning 
has quite some fans while most of the others are at least able to swallow it.


Unless anyone explains me that I got that wrong, I think I'll move the proposal 
there then.

Am 05.11.2020 09:43 schrieb woll...@posteo.de:

Thanks for all the interventions.

To avoid that the discussion becomes inconclusive again, could
everybody rate the following "favourable", "acceptable" or
"unfavourable"?

amenity=mourning
amenity=place_of_mourning
amenity=mourning_room
amenity=viewing_arrangements
amenity=deceased_viewing

Am 04.11.2020 11:17 schrieb woll...@posteo.de:

Dear all,

As there have been no more comments for some time on this proposal,
I've set it to voting. Please have a look and vote:

Chapel of rest: a room or building where families and friends can come
and view someone who has died before their funeral

Proposal page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest

Discussion page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest

Thanks!

Vollis


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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-09 Thread wolle68
OK, so I haven't really done all the counting, but my impression is that 
amenity=place_of_mourning has quite some fans while most of the others 
are at least able to swallow it.


Unless anyone explains me that I got that wrong, I think I'll move the 
proposal there then.


Am 05.11.2020 09:43 schrieb woll...@posteo.de:

Thanks for all the interventions.

To avoid that the discussion becomes inconclusive again, could
everybody rate the following "favourable", "acceptable" or
"unfavourable"?

amenity=mourning
amenity=place_of_mourning
amenity=mourning_room
amenity=viewing_arrangements
amenity=deceased_viewing

Am 04.11.2020 11:17 schrieb woll...@posteo.de:

Dear all,

As there have been no more comments for some time on this proposal,
I've set it to voting. Please have a look and vote:

Chapel of rest: a room or building where families and friends can come
and view someone who has died before their funeral

Proposal page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest

Discussion page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest

Thanks!

Vollis


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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-07 Thread Paul Allen
On Sat, 7 Nov 2020 at 14:26, Brian M. Sperlongano 
wrote:

> I note that "visitation room" is a term that describes "A room designated
> in the funeral home for the deceased to lie before the funeral so that
> people can view the deceased."
>

I hadn't come across the term in the UK, but that could be because I
have little interest in that sort of thing.

Conveniently, it carries no religious connotation.
>

It's funny you should say that. :)  Meaning 3 given in
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/visitation is "An encounter with supernatural
beings such as ghosts or aliens."  Meaning 5 is "A punishment or
blessing ordained by God."

It also has the problem that it has "room" in the name but is
intended to be applied to a building which may have several
such rooms.

And then there is the fact that the emphasis is on those
attending to view the corpse even though in some cases
there are no attendees.  I'd go with "place to view
corpses" since the corpse is pretty much guaranteed to
be there even if nobody comes to look at it.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-07 Thread Brian M. Sperlongano
I note that "visitation room" is a term that describes "A room designated
in the funeral home for the deceased to lie before the funeral so that
people can view the deceased."  Conveniently, it carries no religious
connotation.

Some cursory searching indicates that this term is in use both in the US
and the UK:

https://www.lymn.co.uk/funerals/visiting-the-deceased
https://www.us-funerals.com/funeral-articles/funeral-glossary-of-terms.html

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 8:14 AM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 08:46,  wrote:
>
>>
>> amenity=mourning
>>
>
> Barely acceptable.  It's a verb not a noun, an activity not a place.
>
> amenity=place_of_mourning
>>
>
> Acceptable.  Some would say mourning could happen anywhere, and
> not necessarily for the dead.  But those people miss an important
> fact about English: an arrangement of words may have a
> different meaning from the literal interpretation of the
> individual words.  Compare with "listed building" which
> means a structure (not necessarily a building) which is
> under the legal protection of a national heritage
> organization.
>
> amenity=mourning_room
>>
>
> Unacceptable.  "Mourning room" was the old name for what is now
> known as a "living room" (and was also known as a "parlour"),  A
> room in somebody's house which was pressed into use for the
> display of a corpse when needed.
>
> amenity=viewing_arrangements
>>
>
> This is a verb, not a noun.  It is the process by which plans are
> made to look at a corpse, not the place where the corpse is
> viewed.  In American English it has taken on a meaning
> different from a literal interpretation of the individual words,
> but we use British English in OSM.
>
> amenity=deceased_viewing
>>
>
> That almost works.  But it's a verb not a noun, an activity not a place.
> With additional words it could work, but it would be rather inelegantly
> named.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Brian M. Sperlongano
I agree that my examples are outliers in the key.  However, I was pointing
out the existence of a small collection of outliers for cases where the
*place* was too hard to describe and therefore the *thing *or *service *was
described instead.  So if we find ourselves in the position where the place
is too hard to describe, there is precedence in describing the service
being provided.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 8:43 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 5. Nov 2020, at 16:47, Brian M. Sperlongano 
> wrote:
> >
> > We use amenity=ice_cream and not amenity=ice_cream_parlor, because "ice
> cream" is the amenity being offered.
>
>
> ice cream is more outlier than regular though. And amenity=ice_cream is
> not just for ice cream parlors, it’s also for ice cream stands. And there
> is another tag, amenity=cafe with cuisine=ice_cream, that follows the main
> way of amenity tagging.
>
>
> Cheers Martin
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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 5. Nov 2020, at 16:47, Brian M. Sperlongano  wrote:
> 
> We use amenity=ice_cream and not amenity=ice_cream_parlor, because "ice 
> cream" is the amenity being offered. 


ice cream is more outlier than regular though. And amenity=ice_cream is not 
just for ice cream parlors, it’s also for ice cream stands. And there is 
another tag, amenity=cafe with cuisine=ice_cream, that follows the main way of 
amenity tagging.


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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Paul Allen
On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 18:56, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> I'm not able to find any website which clearly talks about a specific
> "mourning room", though it is certainly documented that the front room of a
> house, often known as a "parlour" at the time, would be used to view the
> corpse of a deceased family member.
>

https://www.vintag.es/2018/01/living-room-what-we-call-today-was.html

https://blogsurabhi.wordpress.com/2013/03/09/what-is-the-origin-of-the-term-living-room/

Those two aren't entirely independent but each provides details the other
omits.

>
> Do you have a link? Do you think that anyone in the 2000s is likely to be
> confused by the term amenity=mourning_room?
>

I haven't encountered anyone using it but then I've rarely been in a
situation where such a room was discussed.

When I search for "mourning room" with google i get a few links
to pages actually using the term and a lot of links to pages about living
rooms, sitting rooms and parlours.  Nothing for chapels of rest (or
whatever we end up calling them), just rooms in private houses.
Google search results are personalized, but I can't think of any reason it
would be giving me these particular results.  So it appears that google
still
thinks a mourning room is a room in a private house.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Peter Elderson
In Nederland it is a normal option to arrange a temporary mourning room 
("rouwkamer") in the house. Any room could be used. I don't think this counts 
as a mappable amenity. Most people, though, use a permanent mourning facility, 
usually with several viewing/mourning rooms because people do not die on 
schedule one at a time.

Peter Elderson

> Op 5 nov. 2020 om 19:56 heeft Joseph Eisenberg  
> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> 
> I'm not able to find any website which clearly talks about a specific 
> "mourning room", though it is certainly documented that the front room of a 
> house, often known as a "parlour" at the time, would be used to view the 
> corpse of a deceased family member. This practice is still common in 
> Southeast Asia, BTW. This room might also have been called a "sitting room", 
> and now is likely the "living room".
> 
> Do you have a link? Do you think that anyone in the 2000s is likely to be 
> confused by the term amenity=mourning_room?
> 
> -- Joseph Eisenberg
> 
>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 10:36 AM Paul Allen  wrote:
>>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 18:19, Steve Doerr  wrote:
 On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 1:14 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>>> 
> On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 08:46,  wrote:
>>>  
> amenity=mourning_room
 
 Unacceptable.  "Mourning room" was the old name for what is now
 known as a "living room" (and was also known as a "parlour"),  A
 room in somebody's house which was pressed into use for the
 display of a corpse when needed.
 
>>> 
>>> I think you'll find that's a 'morning room', defined by the OED as 'a room 
>>> used as a sitting room during the morning or early part of the day'.
>> 
>> Those existed too, if you were rich enough to have a very large house
>> and could move from room to room to follow the sun.  For most
>> people, there was only one sitting room which also served as a place
>> to put a corpse.  I thought I gave a link explaining this.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Paul
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Brian M. Sperlongano
That is clear and unambiguous terminology that is not religion-specific.  I
would support this.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 2:10 PM António Madeira via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> In many modern places near cemeteries there's not a room, but several.
> So, I would prefer amenity=place_of_mourning
>
>
> Às 12:39 de 05/11/2020, Peter Elderson escreveu:
>
>
>
>> rate the following "favourable", "acceptable" or "unfavourable"?
>>
>> amenity=mourning
>>
>
> acceptable, though I think an amenity should be a feature, not an activity
>
>
>> amenity=place_of_mourning
>>
>
> favourable. Secondary tags could add details if necessary
>
>
>> amenity=mourning_room
>>
>
> unfavourable. Too specific.
>
>
>> amenity=viewing_arrangements
>>
>
> unfavourable. I think an amenity should describe a feature, not
> arrangements.
>
>
>> amenity=deceased_viewing
>>
>
> unfavourable.
>
>
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread António Madeira via Tagging

In many modern places near cemeteries there's not a room, but several.
So, I would prefer amenity=place_of_mourning


Às 12:39 de 05/11/2020, Peter Elderson escreveu:


rate the following "favourable", "acceptable" or "unfavourable"?

amenity=mourning


acceptable, though I think an amenity should be a feature, not an
activity

amenity=place_of_mourning


favourable. Secondary tags could add details if necessary

amenity=mourning_room


unfavourable. Too specific.

amenity=viewing_arrangements


unfavourable. I think an amenity should describe a feature, not
arrangements.

amenity=deceased_viewing


unfavourable.

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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
I'm not able to find any website which clearly talks about a specific
"mourning room", though it is certainly documented that the front room of a
house, often known as a "parlour" at the time, would be used to view the
corpse of a deceased family member. This practice is still common in
Southeast Asia, BTW. This room might also have been called a "sitting
room", and now is likely the "living room".

Do you have a link? Do you think that anyone in the 2000s is likely to be
confused by the term amenity=mourning_room?

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 10:36 AM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 18:19, Steve Doerr  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 1:14 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 08:46,  wrote:
>>>

>>
>>> amenity=mourning_room

>>>
>>> Unacceptable.  "Mourning room" was the old name for what is now
>>> known as a "living room" (and was also known as a "parlour"),  A
>>> room in somebody's house which was pressed into use for the
>>> display of a corpse when needed.
>>>
>>>
>> I think you'll find that's a 'morning room', defined by the OED as 'a
>> room used as a sitting room during the morning or early part of the day'.
>>
>
> Those existed too, if you were rich enough to have a very large house
> and could move from room to room to follow the sun.  For most
> people, there was only one sitting room which also served as a place
> to put a corpse.  I thought I gave a link explaining this.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Paul Allen
On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 18:19, Steve Doerr  wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 1:14 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 08:46,  wrote:
>>
>>>
>
>> amenity=mourning_room
>>>
>>
>> Unacceptable.  "Mourning room" was the old name for what is now
>> known as a "living room" (and was also known as a "parlour"),  A
>> room in somebody's house which was pressed into use for the
>> display of a corpse when needed.
>>
>>
> I think you'll find that's a 'morning room', defined by the OED as 'a room
> used as a sitting room during the morning or early part of the day'.
>

Those existed too, if you were rich enough to have a very large house
and could move from room to room to follow the sun.  For most
people, there was only one sitting room which also served as a place
to put a corpse.  I thought I gave a link explaining this.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Steve Doerr
On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 1:14 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 08:46,  wrote:
>
>>

> amenity=mourning_room
>>
>
> Unacceptable.  "Mourning room" was the old name for what is now
> known as a "living room" (and was also known as a "parlour"),  A
> room in somebody's house which was pressed into use for the
> display of a corpse when needed.
>
>
I think you'll find that's a 'morning room', defined by the OED as 'a room
used as a sitting room during the morning or early part of the day'.

-- 
Steve


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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Brian M. Sperlongano
>
>
> amenity=deceased_viewing
>>
>
> That almost works.  But it's a verb not a noun, an activity not a place.
> With additional words it could work, but it would be rather inelegantly
> named.
>

We use amenity=ice_cream and not amenity=ice_cream_parlor, because "ice
cream" is the amenity being offered.  A similar argument for
amenity=fast_food, amenity=bicycle_rental, amenity=fuel, amenity=gambling,
etc.  While I agree that "most" of the values in amenity describe the
place-noun, a decent minority are describing the specific service on
offer.  So, if the place we are describe is "a place where the deceased can
be viewed", deceased_viewing would seem to be a neutral descriptor that
works.
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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Peter Elderson
> rate the following "favourable", "acceptable" or "unfavourable"?
>
> amenity=mourning
>

acceptable, though I think an amenity should be a feature, not an activity


> amenity=place_of_mourning
>

favourable. Secondary tags could add details if necessary


> amenity=mourning_room
>

unfavourable. Too specific.


> amenity=viewing_arrangements
>

unfavourable. I think an amenity should describe a feature, not
arrangements.


> amenity=deceased_viewing
>

unfavourable.


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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Paul Allen
On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 08:46,  wrote:

>
> amenity=mourning
>

Barely acceptable.  It's a verb not a noun, an activity not a place.

amenity=place_of_mourning
>

Acceptable.  Some would say mourning could happen anywhere, and
not necessarily for the dead.  But those people miss an important
fact about English: an arrangement of words may have a
different meaning from the literal interpretation of the
individual words.  Compare with "listed building" which
means a structure (not necessarily a building) which is
under the legal protection of a national heritage
organization.

amenity=mourning_room
>

Unacceptable.  "Mourning room" was the old name for what is now
known as a "living room" (and was also known as a "parlour"),  A
room in somebody's house which was pressed into use for the
display of a corpse when needed.

amenity=viewing_arrangements
>

This is a verb, not a noun.  It is the process by which plans are
made to look at a corpse, not the place where the corpse is
viewed.  In American English it has taken on a meaning
different from a literal interpretation of the individual words,
but we use British English in OSM.

amenity=deceased_viewing
>

That almost works.  But it's a verb not a noun, an activity not a place.
With additional words it could work, but it would be rather inelegantly
named.

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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging



Nov 5, 2020, 09:43 by woll...@posteo.de:

> Thanks for all the interventions.
>
> To avoid that the discussion becomes inconclusive again, could everybody rate 
> the following "favourable", "acceptable" or "unfavourable"?
>
> amenity=mourning
>
unfavourable (unclear)

> amenity=place_of_mourning
>
unfavourable (likely to be misinterpreted by nonnative speakers)

> amenity=mourning_room
>
favourable

> amenity=viewing_arrangements
>
unfavourable (seems unrelated to funeral)

> amenity=deceased_viewing
>
favourable, though sounds a bit silly

>
> Am 04.11.2020 11:17 schrieb woll...@posteo.de:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> As there have been no more comments for some time on this proposal,
>> I've set it to voting. Please have a look and vote:
>>
>> Chapel of rest: a room or building where families and friends can come
>> and view someone who has died before their funeral
>>
>> Proposal page:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest
>>
>> Discussion page:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Vollis
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Niels Elgaard Larsen

woll...@posteo.de:

Thanks for all the interventions.

To avoid that the discussion becomes inconclusive again, could everybody rate the 
following "favourable", "acceptable" or "unfavourable"?





amenity=mourning

favorable


amenity=place_of_mourning
amenity=mourning_room

acceptable



amenity=viewing_arrangements

unfavourable


amenity=deceased_viewing

acceptable

--
Niels Elgaard Larsen

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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread Robert Delmenico
All of these would be acceptable to me - Preference from highest to lowest:

amenity=deceased_viewing
amenity=viewing_arrangements
amenity=place_of_mourning
amenity=mourning_room
amenity=mourning

Rob

On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 19:45,  wrote:

> Thanks for all the interventions.
>
> To avoid that the discussion becomes inconclusive again, could everybody
> rate the following "favourable", "acceptable" or "unfavourable"?
>
> amenity=mourning
> amenity=place_of_mourning
> amenity=mourning_room
> amenity=viewing_arrangements
> amenity=deceased_viewing
>
> Am 04.11.2020 11:17 schrieb woll...@posteo.de:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > As there have been no more comments for some time on this proposal,
> > I've set it to voting. Please have a look and vote:
> >
> > Chapel of rest: a room or building where families and friends can come
> > and view someone who has died before their funeral
> >
> > Proposal page:
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest
> >
> > Discussion page:
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Vollis
>
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Re: [Tagging] religous bias - Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

2020-11-05 Thread wolle68

Thanks for all the interventions.

To avoid that the discussion becomes inconclusive again, could everybody 
rate the following "favourable", "acceptable" or "unfavourable"?


amenity=mourning
amenity=place_of_mourning
amenity=mourning_room
amenity=viewing_arrangements
amenity=deceased_viewing

Am 04.11.2020 11:17 schrieb woll...@posteo.de:

Dear all,

As there have been no more comments for some time on this proposal,
I've set it to voting. Please have a look and vote:

Chapel of rest: a room or building where families and friends can come
and view someone who has died before their funeral

Proposal page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest

Discussion page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest

Thanks!

Vollis


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