Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[John F. Eldredge]

In American usage, gravel refers to both rounded and unrounded stones of 
similar size.  For example, concrete often makes use of crushed stone in the 
gravel size; it is angular rather than rounded. Pea gravel is often used as an 
ornamental surface layer for concrete, but not for use within a concrete slab, 
since it is more expensive.


On May 12, 2015 4:47:54 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:
>2015-05-10 14:19 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :
>
>> *pebbles* is similar to gravel, only that loose pebbles are used in
>place
>> of the gravel. The pebbles are bigger than the gravel pieces, and
>rounded.
>
>
>
>reading several sources it appears to me that gravel is rounded too,
>the
>wiki seems wrong here:
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface  wrong picture and wrong
>description, wrong size specification...
>
>FWIW, pebbles seem to be a subset of gravel (grain size):
>
>granular gravel (2 to 4 mm)
>pebble gravel (4 to 64 mm)
>
>cheers,
>Martin
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-12 14:49 GMT+02:00 pmailkeey . :

> Now, we can start arguing about the definition of 'small' :)) - so I'll
> start, in this context, with any stone smaller than a curling stone
>  !
>
> large ones  can be several
> feet in diameter and a couple of kT.
>



there are definitions for the sizes:
ISO 14688-1 which is basically DIN 4022.
in the US:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Wentworth-Grain-Size-Chart.pdf

the basic sequence clay, silt, sand, pebbles, cobbles, boulders is the
same, there's nothing to argue about.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[pmailkeey .]

On 12 May 2015 at 10:49, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2015-05-12 11:47 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>> FWIW, pebbles seem to be a subset of gravel (grain size):
>>
>>

Ahh osm just seems to be an argument ground ;)

OED: "A small, smooth, rounded stone, worn by the action of water, ice, or
sand."

Now, we can start arguing about the definition of 'small' :)) - so I'll
start, in this context, with any stone smaller than a curling stone
 !

large ones  can be several feet
in diameter and a couple of kT.

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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-12 11:47 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

> FWIW, pebbles seem to be a subset of gravel (grain size):
>
> granular gravel (2 to 4 mm)
> pebble gravel (4 to 64 mm)
>


to complete this for our purposes:
below granular gravel there is sand, above pebble there are cobbles (64 -
254mm diameter).

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-10 14:19 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :

> *pebbles* is similar to gravel, only that loose pebbles are used in place
> of the gravel. The pebbles are bigger than the gravel pieces, and rounded.



reading several sources it appears to me that gravel is rounded too, the
wiki seems wrong here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface  wrong picture and wrong
description, wrong size specification...

FWIW, pebbles seem to be a subset of gravel (grain size):

granular gravel (2 to 4 mm)
pebble gravel (4 to 64 mm)

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[John F. Eldredge]

In American usage, by contrast, the mixed-sizes, rounded rocks you would find 
on a rocky beach are shingle. Only the smaller of such rocks would be referred 
to as pebbles. Pea gravel refers specifically to pea-sized pebbles, generally 
mined from a stream bed or river bed.


On May 11, 2015 5:50:26 PM CDT, "pmailkeey ."  wrote:
>On 11 May 2015 at 21:35, John F. Eldredge  wrote:
>
>> Speaking as an American, I would refer to that as a mix of cobbles
>and
>> setts (some of the stones in the photo look rounded, some squared,
>and some
>> irregular). They appear ti be about the size of a human palm. I think
>of
>> pebbles as rocks of finger-diameter or less, such as the pea gravel
>often
>> used on the surface of concrete driveways, for ornamental reasons.
>>
>>
>>
>Pebbles to me are 'rounded stones' (aka 'cornerless) of any size as
>found
>washed up on a beach having been ground by rubbing against each other
>with
>tidal action. What you describe, I think we'd call 'shingle'.
>
>There ought to be an American translation of the wiki and osm
>interfaces.
>
>
>-- 
>Mike.
>@millomweb 
>-
>For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
>via *the area's premier website - *
>
>*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family,
>property
>& pets*
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[pmailkeey .]

On 11 May 2015 at 21:35, John F. Eldredge  wrote:

> Speaking as an American, I would refer to that as a mix of cobbles and
> setts (some of the stones in the photo look rounded, some squared, and some
> irregular). They appear ti be about the size of a human palm. I think of
> pebbles as rocks of finger-diameter or less, such as the pea gravel often
> used on the surface of concrete driveways, for ornamental reasons.
>
>
>
Pebbles to me are 'rounded stones' (aka 'cornerless) of any size as found
washed up on a beach having been ground by rubbing against each other with
tidal action. What you describe, I think we'd call 'shingle'.

There ought to be an American translation of the wiki and osm interfaces.


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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[John F. Eldredge]

Speaking as an American, I would refer to that as a mix of cobbles and setts 
(some of the stones in the photo look rounded, some squared, and some 
irregular). They appear ti be about the size of a human palm. I think of 
pebbles as rocks of finger-diameter or less, such as the pea gravel often used 
on the surface of concrete driveways, for ornamental reasons.


On May 11, 2015 6:46:10 AM CDT, "pmailkeey ."  wrote:
>On 10 May 2015 at 15:34, Andy Mabbett 
>wrote:
>
>> On 10 May 2015 at 13:19, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>>
>> > pebblestones is a road surface where pebbles are set in sand or
>mortar
>> (?)
>> > and is typically seen in old cities. Example:
>> > http://mapillary.com/map/im/2KnVHcwLqcyy6Qis4iWF1Q
>>
>> In British English, those are cobbles or cobblestinoes:
>>
>
>
>Those are pebbles - or pebblestone
>
>Cobbles are rounded and difficult to walk on
>
>esp. when wet
>
>Then there's setts
>
>- squarer blocks
>
>
>
>-- 
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>@millomweb 
>-
>For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
>via *the area's premier website - *
>
>*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family,
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>& pets*
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[pmailkeey .]

On 10 May 2015 at 15:34, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> On 10 May 2015 at 13:19, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
> > pebblestones is a road surface where pebbles are set in sand or mortar
> (?)
> > and is typically seen in old cities. Example:
> > http://mapillary.com/map/im/2KnVHcwLqcyy6Qis4iWF1Q
>
> In British English, those are cobbles or cobblestinoes:
>


Those are pebbles - or pebblestone

Cobbles are rounded and difficult to walk on

esp. when wet

Then there's setts 
- squarer blocks



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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[pmailkeey .]

On 10 May 2015 at 13:19, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> I don't think it's the same.
>
> I am interpreting and using these two tags like this:
>
> *pebblestones* is a road surface where pebbles are set in sand or mortar
> (?) and is typically seen in old cities. Example:
> http://mapillary.com/map/im/2KnVHcwLqcyy6Qis4iWF1Q
>
> *pebbles* is similar to gravel, only that loose pebbles are used in place
> of the gravel. The pebbles are bigger than the gravel pieces, and rounded.
> They are not set in any way. (example:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/171367286 - no photo available)
> *pebbles* is also used as beach surface. Example:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/189789251
>


That's my interpretation too - even before I read this :)

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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[Andy Mabbett]

On 10 May 2015 at 13:19, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> pebblestones is a road surface where pebbles are set in sand or mortar (?)
> and is typically seen in old cities. Example:
> http://mapillary.com/map/im/2KnVHcwLqcyy6Qis4iWF1Q

In British English, those are cobbles or cobblestinoes:

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobblestone

(regional dialects may differ)

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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[Richard Z.]

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 03:03:14PM +0200, Richard Z. wrote:
> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 01:29:48PM +0100, SomeoneElse wrote:
> > Regardless of pebbles vs pebblestone, where did the distinction of
> > "gravel=sharp, pebblestone=rounded" come from?   Is there any way to easily
> > see who first contributed a particular section of a wiki page?
> 
> wikiblame would do it but as afaics does not search our wiki so 
> someone would have to setup a server or arrange something with
> wikiblame itself.

actually wikiblame apparently works out of the box if you know which 
parameters to enter:
language: the word "blank" without quotes (not a blank)
project: wiki.openstreetmap

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[Richard Z.]

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 01:29:48PM +0100, SomeoneElse wrote:
> Regardless of pebbles vs pebblestone, where did the distinction of
> "gravel=sharp, pebblestone=rounded" come from?   Is there any way to easily
> see who first contributed a particular section of a wiki page?

wikiblame would do it but as afaics does not search our wiki so 
someone would have to setup a server or arrange something with
wikiblame itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiBlame

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[Volker Schmidt]

I have to confess that my use is based on the OSM wiki:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface and
I did not check the mother tongue of the authors :-)

There are highway surfaces where pebbles are set (I suppose by hand) into
some material that holds them in position (typically in historic city
centres) and I have encountered tracks where loose pebbles are used to
stabilise the surface.
I don't care too much what they are called, but they need different tag
values.


On 10 May 2015 at 14:31, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> On 10 May 2015 at 12:03, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
> > Is there any good reason to avoid changing existing surface=pebbles to
> > surface=pebblestone?
>
> I'm a native speaker of British English, and I've; never heard of
> "pebblestones".
>
> +1 for pebbles.
>
> Google suggests useage of the latter outweighs the former by almost 100
> times:
>
>http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?word1=pebblestones&word2=pebbles
>
> --
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> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[Andy Mabbett]

On 10 May 2015 at 12:03, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> Is there any good reason to avoid changing existing surface=pebbles to
> surface=pebblestone?

I'm a native speaker of British English, and I've; never heard of
"pebblestones".

+1 for pebbles.

Google suggests useage of the latter outweighs the former by almost 100 times:

   http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?word1=pebblestones&word2=pebbles

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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[SomeoneElse]

Regardless of pebbles vs pebblestone, where did the distinction of 
"gravel=sharp, pebblestone=rounded" come from?   Is there any way to 
easily see who first contributed a particular section of a wiki page?


I'm not convinced that the wiki is documenting usage in OSM here.  A bit 
like natural=wood / landuse=forest, I suspect that you wouldn't be able 
read anything much based on whether something was tagged as 
surface=gravel, pebbles or pebblestone.


Cheers,

Andy




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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[Volker Schmidt]

I don't think it's the same.

I am interpreting and using these two tags like this:

*pebblestones* is a road surface where pebbles are set in sand or mortar
(?) and is typically seen in old cities. Example:
http://mapillary.com/map/im/2KnVHcwLqcyy6Qis4iWF1Q

*pebbles* is similar to gravel, only that loose pebbles are used in place
of the gravel. The pebbles are bigger than the gravel pieces, and rounded.
They are not set in any way. (example:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/171367286 - no photo available)
*pebbles* is also used as beach surface. Example:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/189789251

On 10 May 2015 at 13:03, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:

> surface=pebblestone is documented at
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface and used 23 537 times.
>
> surface=pebbles is not documented and used 555 times.
>
> Both seem to have the same meaning.
>
> Is there any good reason to avoid changing existing surface=pebbles to
> surface=pebblestone?
>
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[Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

surface=pebblestone is documented at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface and used 23 537 times.

surface=pebbles is not documented and used 555 times.

Both seem to have the same meaning.

Is there any good reason to avoid changing existing surface=pebbles to
surface=pebblestone?

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