Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-12 Thread Allan Mustard
Even for a government bureaucrat like me it seems a bit wordy. :-)

On 11/12/2018 6:19 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote
>> On 7. Nov 2018, at 02:28, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
>>
>> Maybe change the title a little bit: "office of an elected official"?
> maybe this goes too far?
>
> Cheers, Martin 
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-12 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 7. Nov 2018, at 02:28, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> Maybe change the title a little bit: "office of an elected official"?


maybe this goes too far?

Cheers, Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-07 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar
On Nov 7, 2018 11:22 PM, "Allan Mustard"  wrote:

I like constituency_office.


+1

FWIW, Wikidata has settled on the term "constituency" for this political
concept (aka parliamentary seat, electoral district, legislative district,
etc.): https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q192611
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-07 Thread Allan Mustard
I like constituency_office.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 7, 2018, at 4:44 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I think I have firmed up on
> 
> office=government
> 
> with either
> 
> government=constituency_office
> or
> government=politicians_office
> 
> I'll start a proposal page .. I'd like a vote on which one, or if there are 
> any other ideas for a government= something else.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-06 Thread Warin

On 07/11/18 12:28, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 10:13, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:



As the subject title says " tagging for an office of the local
representative to parliament"?
 Note different places may use different words to describe their
'parliament' and/or 'local representative'


Maybe change the title a little bit: "office of an elected official"?

government=constituency_office
or
government=politicians_office

???


To be honest, I'm not overly excited by either of them, but maybe the 
same thing could work?


government=elected_official




I don't think all of them are elected ... House of Lords GB springs to 
mind. Possibly they don't have offices anyway :)


Elected official look to refer to the person, rather then a place to go 
to contact them.


?
I'm not that happy with either of them .. but have not though of 
something better.
Politician for me is slightly in front of constituency as it is in more 
common use so might be better understood/translated in other languages.
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-06 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 10:13, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> As the subject title says " tagging for an office of the local
> representative to parliament"?
>  Note different places may use different words to describe their
> 'parliament' and/or 'local representative'
>

Maybe change the title a little bit: "office of an elected official"?

government=constituency_office
> or
> government=politicians_office
>
> ???
>

To be honest, I'm not overly excited by either of them, but maybe the same
thing could work?

government=elected_official

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-06 Thread Warin

On 07/11/18 11:01, Paul Allen wrote:
On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 11:45 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:



I think I have firmed up on

office=government

with either

government=constituency_office
or
government=politicians_office


I assume you're thinking of elected representatives. Because they're 
usually the ones to make
legislation and therefore the ones to complain to when you have 
grievances you want the

government to redress.  But they're not the only ones.


As the subject title says " tagging for an office of the local 
representative to parliament"?
 Note different places may use different words to describe their 
'parliament' and/or 'local representative'  lets not debate that, I 
have no interest in it.




What is your preference ?

government=constituency_office
or
government=politicians_office

???
Nothing in taginfo over 1 use that is suitable.


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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-06 Thread Paul Allen
On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 11:45 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I think I have firmed up on
>
> office=government
>
> with either
>
> government=constituency_office
> or
> government=politicians_office
>

I assume you're thinking of elected representatives.  Because they're
usually the ones to make
legislation and therefore the ones to complain to when you have grievances
you want the
government to redress.  But they're not the only ones.  And sometimes not
the first point of
contact, either.

Some countries have an Ombudsman.  Many countries have regulatory agencies,
such as
EPA, FDA , FCC, etc. in the US; OfCom, OfGem, OfWat, etc. in the UK.
Technically, in the UK,
one still has the right to petition Mrs Betty Windsor for the redress of
personal grievances.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-06 Thread Warin


I think I have firmed up on

office=government

with either

government=constituency_office
or
government=politicians_office

I'll start a proposal page .. I'd like a vote on which one, or if there 
are any other ideas for a government= something else.




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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-05 Thread Paul Allen
On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 7:25 AM Colin Smale  wrote:

> On 2018-11-04 01:20, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:10 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>> Question though (more for someone in Europe) - is a "Member of the
>> European Parliament" elected, or just appointed by their home country? Are
>> they a "politician" as such?
>>
>
> Elected.  They don't serve any useful purpose since the EU is run by
> unelected bureaucrats, but they're
> elected.
>
>
> Paul, please keep your personal politics out of this discussion.
>

I simplified.  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament

Although the European Parliament has legislative power that the Council and
Commission do not possess, it does not formally possess legislative
initiative , as
most national
parliaments

of European Union member states do.

And then you can go down a twisty maze of Wikipedia articles to conclude
that, as parliaments go,
the European Parliament is very limited in its powers but the bureaucracy
is not.  Still, it counts
as elected representation for the purposes of the proposal.

BTW, I'm not going to insist you refrain from inferring my politics by what
I wrote, merely point
out that you inferred incorrectly.  And that by mentioning it at all, you
perpetuated this side-issue.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-04 Thread Colin Smale
On 2018-11-04 01:20, Paul Allen wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:10 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick  
> wrote:
> 
>> Question though (more for someone in Europe) - is a "Member of the European 
>> Parliament" elected, or just appointed by their home country? Are they a 
>> "politician" as such?
> 
> Elected.  They don't serve any useful purpose since the EU is run by 
> unelected bureaucrats, but they're 
> elected.

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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-04 Thread Warin

On 04/11/18 11:20, Paul Allen wrote:
On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:10 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Question though (more for someone in Europe) - is a "Member of the
European Parliament" elected, or just appointed by their home
country? Are they a "politician" as such?


Elected.  They don't serve any useful purpose since the EU is run by 
unelected bureaucrats, but they're

elected.

Is there another overall term for elected people? (& yes, I can
think of quite a few terms for them, but I don't think we should
be marking any of them on the map! :-))


My local councillor is elected.  Is she counted in this scheme of 
things?  Local government is
government and getting elected is politics.  Even though it has US 
connotations, a general term

might be "representative."



office=government
government=constituency_office
or
government=politicians_office

???

Leaving is as office=government is too broad .. could encompass a 
taxation office.
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-04 Thread Allan Mustard
Exactly right.  Government has a legal monopoly on coercion, ranging
from the death penalty to collection of taxes and enforcement of the
barking dog ordinance in Fairfax County, Virginia.  Contractors do a lot
of government work (in the United States, contractors outnumber
direct-hire government employees by a ratio of 2.5:1) but their firms
are or should be tagged office=company while the government offices
where they may perform their duties should be tagged office=government.

I supervised a computer shop for two years.  One-third of my
subordinates were direct-hire government employees.  Two-thirds worked
for a private company with a government contract.  They shared offices
and were virtually interchangeable.  The corporate headquarters was
separate, and in my mind would have been tagged office=company.  My
government office building (the South Agriculture Building, largest
government office building in the District of Columbia at the time)
would have been tagged office=ministry since USDA is a Cabinet
department=ministry.

The bus company in Ashgabat is state-owned.  I have tagged its depot as
a bus depot, not as a government office.  Function to me also plays a role.

apm


On 11/4/2018 8:42 PM, Colin Smale wrote:
>
> The activity of a prison is on behalf of a government, pursuant to a
> statutory duty of the government to administer justice. That its
> operation is outsourced to a private company doesn't change that fact.
> You can't just start your own prison - it is a state monopoly.
>
> Public transport may be a state monopoly, but sometimes it isn't. In
> the middle you have state regulation, which is the status in much of
> the UK. Anyone can start a bus company, but you need to register the
> route at least. (I think it might be a bit more complicated than
> that...) Providing free transport, well, I suppose anyone can make it
> free if they want, but the money has to come from somewhere...
>
>
> On 2018-11-04 15:41, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> On 4. Nov 2018, at 10:19, Allan Mustard > > wrote:
>>
>>> If it is a budget-dependent company/corporation, such as the
>>> Commodity Credit Corporation of the U.S. government, which generates
>>> no revenue of its own and relies wholly on appropriations from the
>>> U.S. Congress, yes, it should be tagged government.  As Deep Throat
>>> said, "Follow the money!"
>>>
>>>
>>
>>  
>> I find this difficult, because it implies we define what is original
>> government duty and what is not. Providing beer is apparently not a
>> government job (any more?), providing healthcare might be (?), what
>> about transportation? Is free public transportation a government
>> duty? They surely wouldn't generate (at least direct) profits, and if
>> the service isn't free it could still be financed by the government
>> and not be profitable. Similarly the providing of energy, water, the
>> treatment of waste. Europeans tend to see prisons as government
>> sites, in the US prisons are often private.
>>  
>> Ciao, Martin 
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-04 Thread Colin Smale
The activity of a prison is on behalf of a government, pursuant to a
statutory duty of the government to administer justice. That its
operation is outsourced to a private company doesn't change that fact.
You can't just start your own prison - it is a state monopoly. 

Public transport may be a state monopoly, but sometimes it isn't. In the
middle you have state regulation, which is the status in much of the UK.
Anyone can start a bus company, but you need to register the route at
least. (I think it might be a bit more complicated than that...)
Providing free transport, well, I suppose anyone can make it free if
they want, but the money has to come from somewhere... 

On 2018-11-04 15:41, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone 
> 
> On 4. Nov 2018, at 10:19, Allan Mustard  wrote:
> 
>> If it is a budget-dependent company/corporation, such as the Commodity 
>> Credit Corporation of the U.S. government, which generates no revenue of its 
>> own and relies wholly on appropriations from the U.S. Congress, yes, it 
>> should be tagged government.  As Deep Throat said, "Follow the money!"
> 
> I find this difficult, because it implies we define what is original 
> government duty and what is not. Providing beer is apparently not a 
> government job (any more?), providing healthcare might be (?), what about 
> transportation? Is free public transportation a government duty? They surely 
> wouldn't generate (at least direct) profits, and if the service isn't free it 
> could still be financed by the government and not be profitable. Similarly 
> the providing of energy, water, the treatment of waste. Europeans tend to see 
> prisons as government sites, in the US prisons are often private. 
> 
> Ciao, Martin  
> 
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-04 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 4. Nov 2018, at 10:19, Allan Mustard  wrote:
> 
> If it is a budget-dependent company/corporation, such as the Commodity Credit 
> Corporation of the U.S. government, which generates no revenue of its own and 
> relies wholly on appropriations from the U.S. Congress, yes, it should be 
> tagged government.  As Deep Throat said, "Follow the money!"
> 


I find this difficult, because it implies we define what is original government 
duty and what is not. Providing beer is apparently not a government job (any 
more?), providing healthcare might be (?), what about transportation? Is free 
public transportation a government duty? They surely wouldn’t generate (at 
least direct) profits, and if the service isn’t free it could still be financed 
by the government and not be profitable. Similarly the providing of energy, 
water, the treatment of waste. Europeans tend to see prisons as government 
sites, in the US prisons are often private.

Ciao, Martin 



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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-04 Thread Colin Smale
Thanks for the clear explanation, Allan! 

Although if it really has zero staff, I do wonder who employs the people
who "push the buttons" - authorising and approving payments etc. Do they
work for the Dept of Agriculture? Are they technically "contractors" to
the CCC?

On 2018-11-04 13:43, Allan Mustard wrote:

> The Commodity Credit Corporation is the U.S. equivalent of a British "crown 
> corporation".  It has no staff of its own, a board of directors that consists 
> of the senior political appointees of the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and 
> authority to disburse funds to farmers eligible for various government 
> programs.  It has many statutory duties and authorities to provide credit and 
> subsidies, dating back to legislation first passed in the Great Depression.  
> Programs are implemented by USDA (i.e., government) employees under these 
> authorities.  It is about as far from a commercial enterprise as one can 
> imagine--not even "pseudo-commercial"!  In WTO terms, it is the U.S. 
> government's "national paying agency" for agriculture and so by international 
> treaty is considered a government agency, even though it is incorporated in 
> Delaware as a corporation, has a board of directors, and so on.  If the CCC 
> had an office, it would be tagged office=government, but since CCC only 
> exists on paper, we
mappers don't really have to worry about it :-) On 11/4/2018 3:52 PM, Colin 
Smale wrote:
> 
> The answer will depend on whether we are talking about landuse, building, 
> office or amenity. 
> 
> Waste disposal is (in Europe) usually a statutory task, performed by a 
> commercial company on behalf of some government. If it is open to the public, 
> then the "amenity" provided is waste disposal / recycling. The landuse is 
> probably something like "waste disposal" or "industrial", similar to how 
> landfill sites might be tagged. The "office" belongs to the commercial 
> company, so that is not governmental. 
> 
> Other areas where this (outsourcing of statutory duties) is commonplace (that 
> I know of) include public transport, administration of visa applications, 
> healthcare provision, assessment of benefits claims, and operation of 
> highways/infrastructure. 
> 
> Government-owned companies like a brewery are IMHO nothing to do with the 
> execution of statutory tasks and are therefore not governmental in any way, 
> shape or form. 
> 
> In the example of the Credit Corporation, does some government organisation 
> have a statutory duty to provide credit? Or does it come under something more 
> general like "protecting the poor"? Would the government be "failing in its 
> statutory duty" if thie company disappeared? Otherwise it sounds like an 
> optional, pseudo-commercial venture which in this case happens to be 
> bankrolled by the government.
> 
> On 2018-11-04 11:13, Warin wrote: 
> 
> Where do you draw the line?
> 
> If a 'government company' has 50% of its income from a government allocation 
> and the rest from elsewhere (e.g. contracts with private 
> companies/individuals) is it 'government' or not?
> 
> On 04/11/18 20:19, Allan Mustard wrote: 
> 
> If it is a profitable company that adds to the government's coffers, such as 
> the Budvar brewery in the Czech Republic, which is government owned, I'd say 
> no.  It should be tagged as a brewery.  Same logic would apply to 
> Rosoboronexport, which is Russia's second-largest revenue earner as an arms 
> exporter.  Petronas, the Malaysian government gas and oil company, should be 
> tagged as a gas and oil company.  Same for Pemex, Petroleo Mexicano, as well 
> as the grocery stores the Bangladeshi army operates.
> 
> If it is a budget-dependent company/corporation, such as the Commodity Credit 
> Corporation of the U.S. government, which generates no revenue of its own and 
> relies wholly on appropriations from the U.S. Congress, yes, it should be 
> tagged government.  As Deep Throat said, "Follow the money!" 
> 
> apm-wa 
> On 11/4/2018 1:29 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> On 4. Nov 2018, at 05:54, Allan Mustard  wrote:
> 
> Paul, as Deep Throat told Bob Woodward, "Follow the money."  Who pays the 
> rent on the office and who pays the salary of the occupant?  If the filthy 
> lucre comes out of the government budget, and the office is used by someone 
> drawing a government salary (as all executives, legislators, and judges do, 
> or are supposed to, at least) then it is a government office.
> 
> what about government owned companies? Should they get a government tag?
> 
> Cheers, Martin

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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-04 Thread Allan Mustard
The Commodity Credit Corporation is the U.S. equivalent of a British
"crown corporation".  It has no staff of its own, a board of directors
that consists of the senior political appointees of the U.S. Department
of Agriculture, and authority to disburse funds to farmers eligible for
various government programs.  It has many statutory duties and
authorities to provide credit and subsidies, dating back to legislation
first passed in the Great Depression.  Programs are implemented by USDA
(i.e., government) employees under these authorities.  It is about as
far from a commercial enterprise as one can imagine--not even
"pseudo-commercial"!  In WTO terms, it is the U.S. government's
"national paying agency" for agriculture and so by international treaty
is considered a government agency, even though it is incorporated in
Delaware as a corporation, has a board of directors, and so on.  If the
CCC had an office, it would be tagged office=government, but since CCC
only exists on paper, we mappers don't really have to worry about it :-)

On 11/4/2018 3:52 PM, Colin Smale wrote:
>
> The answer will depend on whether we are talking about landuse,
> building, office or amenity.
>
> Waste disposal is (in Europe) usually a statutory task, performed by a
> commercial company on behalf of some government. If it is open to the
> public, then the "amenity" provided is waste disposal / recycling. The
> landuse is probably something like "waste disposal" or "industrial",
> similar to how landfill sites might be tagged. The "office" belongs to
> the commercial company, so that is not governmental.
>
> Other areas where this (outsourcing of statutory duties) is
> commonplace (that I know of) include public transport, administration
> of visa applications, healthcare provision, assessment of benefits
> claims, and operation of highways/infrastructure.
>
> Government-owned companies like a brewery are IMHO nothing to do with
> the execution of statutory tasks and are therefore not governmental in
> any way, shape or form.
>
> In the example of the Credit Corporation, does some government
> organisation have a statutory duty to provide credit? Or does it come
> under something more general like "protecting the poor"? Would the
> government be "failing in its statutory duty" if thie company
> disappeared? Otherwise it sounds like an optional, pseudo-commercial
> venture which in this case happens to be bankrolled by the government.
>
>  
>
>
> On 2018-11-04 11:13, Warin wrote:
>
>> Where do you draw the line?
>> If a 'government company' has 50% of its income from a government
>> allocation and the rest from elsewhere (e.g. contracts with private
>> companies/individuals) is it 'government' or not?
>>
>>  On 04/11/18 20:19, Allan Mustard wrote:
>>>
>>> If it is a profitable company that adds to the government's coffers,
>>> such as the Budvar brewery in the Czech Republic, which is
>>> government owned, I'd say no.  It should be tagged as a brewery. 
>>> Same logic would apply to Rosoboronexport, which is Russia's
>>> second-largest revenue earner as an arms exporter.  Petronas, the
>>> Malaysian government gas and oil company, should be tagged as a gas
>>> and oil company.  Same for Pemex, Petroleo Mexicano, as well as the
>>> grocery stores the Bangladeshi army operates.
>>>
>>> If it is a budget-dependent company/corporation, such as the
>>> Commodity Credit Corporation of the U.S. government, which generates
>>> no revenue of its own and relies wholly on appropriations from the
>>> U.S. Congress, yes, it should be tagged government.  As Deep Throat
>>> said, "Follow the money!"
>>>
>>> apm-wa
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/4/2018 1:29 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 sent from a phone

> On 4. Nov 2018, at 05:54, Allan Mustard  wrote:
>
> Paul, as Deep Throat told Bob Woodward, "Follow the money."  Who pays the 
> rent on the office and who pays the salary of the occupant?  If the 
> filthy lucre comes out of the government budget, and the office is used 
> by someone drawing a government salary (as all executives, legislators, 
> and judges do, or are supposed to, at least) then it is a government 
> office.
 what about government owned companies? Should they get a government tag?

 Cheers, Martin 
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-04 Thread Colin Smale
The answer will depend on whether we are talking about landuse,
building, office or amenity. 

Waste disposal is (in Europe) usually a statutory task, performed by a
commercial company on behalf of some government. If it is open to the
public, then the "amenity" provided is waste disposal / recycling. The
landuse is probably something like "waste disposal" or "industrial",
similar to how landfill sites might be tagged. The "office" belongs to
the commercial company, so that is not governmental. 

Other areas where this (outsourcing of statutory duties) is commonplace
(that I know of) include public transport, administration of visa
applications, healthcare provision, assessment of benefits claims, and
operation of highways/infrastructure. 

Government-owned companies like a brewery are IMHO nothing to do with
the execution of statutory tasks and are therefore not governmental in
any way, shape or form. 

In the example of the Credit Corporation, does some government
organisation have a statutory duty to provide credit? Or does it come
under something more general like "protecting the poor"? Would the
government be "failing in its statutory duty" if thie company
disappeared? Otherwise it sounds like an optional, pseudo-commercial
venture which in this case happens to be bankrolled by the government.

On 2018-11-04 11:13, Warin wrote:

> Where do you draw the line?
> 
> If a 'government company' has 50% of its income from a government allocation 
> and the rest from elsewhere (e.g. contracts with private 
> companies/individuals) is it 'government' or not?
> 
> On 04/11/18 20:19, Allan Mustard wrote: 
> 
> If it is a profitable company that adds to the government's coffers, such as 
> the Budvar brewery in the Czech Republic, which is government owned, I'd say 
> no.  It should be tagged as a brewery.  Same logic would apply to 
> Rosoboronexport, which is Russia's second-largest revenue earner as an arms 
> exporter.  Petronas, the Malaysian government gas and oil company, should be 
> tagged as a gas and oil company.  Same for Pemex, Petroleo Mexicano, as well 
> as the grocery stores the Bangladeshi army operates.
> 
> If it is a budget-dependent company/corporation, such as the Commodity Credit 
> Corporation of the U.S. government, which generates no revenue of its own and 
> relies wholly on appropriations from the U.S. Congress, yes, it should be 
> tagged government.  As Deep Throat said, "Follow the money!" 
> 
> apm-wa 
> On 11/4/2018 1:29 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> On 4. Nov 2018, at 05:54, Allan Mustard  wrote:
> 
> Paul, as Deep Throat told Bob Woodward, "Follow the money."  Who pays the 
> rent on the office and who pays the salary of the occupant?  If the filthy 
> lucre comes out of the government budget, and the office is used by someone 
> drawing a government salary (as all executives, legislators, and judges do, 
> or are supposed to, at least) then it is a government office.
> 
> what about government owned companies? Should they get a government tag?
> 
> Cheers, Martin

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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-04 Thread Warin

Where do you draw the line?

If a 'government company' has 50% of its income from a government 
allocation and the rest from elsewhere (e.g. contracts with private 
companies/individuals) is it 'government' or not?



 On 04/11/18 20:19, Allan Mustard wrote:


If it is a profitable company that adds to the government's coffers, 
such as the Budvar brewery in the Czech Republic, which is government 
owned, I'd say no.  It should be tagged as a brewery.  Same logic 
would apply to Rosoboronexport, which is Russia's second-largest 
revenue earner as an arms exporter.  Petronas, the Malaysian 
government gas and oil company, should be tagged as a gas and oil 
company.  Same for Pemex, Petroleo Mexicano, as well as the grocery 
stores the Bangladeshi army operates.


If it is a budget-dependent company/corporation, such as the Commodity 
Credit Corporation of the U.S. government, which generates no revenue 
of its own and relies wholly on appropriations from the U.S. Congress, 
yes, it should be tagged government.  As Deep Throat said, "Follow the 
money!"


apm-wa


On 11/4/2018 1:29 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

sent from a phone


On 4. Nov 2018, at 05:54, Allan Mustard  wrote:

Paul, as Deep Throat told Bob Woodward, "Follow the money."  Who pays the rent 
on the office and who pays the salary of the occupant?  If the filthy lucre comes out of 
the government budget, and the office is used by someone drawing a government salary (as 
all executives, legislators, and judges do, or are supposed to, at least) then it is a 
government office.

what about government owned companies? Should they get a government tag?

Cheers, Martin




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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-04 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 4. Nov 2018, at 05:54, Allan Mustard  wrote:
> 
> Paul, as Deep Throat told Bob Woodward, "Follow the money."  Who pays the 
> rent on the office and who pays the salary of the occupant?  If the filthy 
> lucre comes out of the government budget, and the office is used by someone 
> drawing a government salary (as all executives, legislators, and judges do, 
> or are supposed to, at least) then it is a government office.


what about government owned companies? Should they get a government tag?

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-04 Thread Allan Mustard
If it is a profitable company that adds to the government's coffers,
such as the Budvar brewery in the Czech Republic, which is government
owned, I'd say no.  It should be tagged as a brewery.  Same logic would
apply to Rosoboronexport, which is Russia's second-largest revenue
earner as an arms exporter.  Petronas, the Malaysian government gas and
oil company, should be tagged as a gas and oil company.  Same for Pemex,
Petroleo Mexicano, as well as the grocery stores the Bangladeshi army
operates.

If it is a budget-dependent company/corporation, such as the Commodity
Credit Corporation of the U.S. government, which generates no revenue of
its own and relies wholly on appropriations from the U.S. Congress, yes,
it should be tagged government.  As Deep Throat said, "Follow the money!"

apm-wa


On 11/4/2018 1:29 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 4. Nov 2018, at 05:54, Allan Mustard  wrote:
>>
>> Paul, as Deep Throat told Bob Woodward, "Follow the money."  Who pays the 
>> rent on the office and who pays the salary of the occupant?  If the filthy 
>> lucre comes out of the government budget, and the office is used by someone 
>> drawing a government salary (as all executives, legislators, and judges do, 
>> or are supposed to, at least) then it is a government office.
>
> what about government owned companies? Should they get a government tag?
>
> Cheers, Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-03 Thread Allan Mustard
Paul, as Deep Throat told Bob Woodward, "Follow the money."  Who pays
the rent on the office and who pays the salary of the occupant?  If the
filthy lucre comes out of the government budget, and the office is used
by someone drawing a government salary (as all executives, legislators,
and judges do, or are supposed to, at least) then it is a government office.

By the way the UK has no monopoly on overlap between executive and
legislative branches.  Since we Yanks adopted a Constitution in 1789
that makes the Vice President also the President of the Senate, our VP
is technically a member of the legislative branch, and his office budget
is so appropriated. 

Cheers,
apm-wa


On 11/4/2018 2:04 AM, Warin wrote:
> On 04/11/18 01:41, Paul Allen wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 3:29 AM Allan Mustard > > wrote:
>>
>> Hmmm.  Reaching back to my bachelor's degree in political
>> science, Parliament is also a government body, the legislative
>> branch of the government, so even a member of the opposition is
>> part of "government" in its broadest sense.  I would tag it
>> office=government, government=parliamentarian or something
>> similar.  Executive, legislative, judicial are all "government".
>>
>> There's a can of annelids here, just waiting to be opened.
>>
>> Over here in the UK, I have an MP (Member of Parliament) representing
>> me in the UK national
>> government.  There's also the House of Lords (upper chamber), some
>> members of which might
>> have unofficial offices outside of parliament buildings where they
>> can be contacted, but a quick
>> search shows no evidence of such.  Since I live in Wales, I also have
>> an AM (Assembly Member)
>> of the National Assembly of Wales.  And, for a few more months, I
>> have an MEP (Member of the
>> European Parliament).  Scotland and Northern Ireland have devolved
>> governments like Wales
>> (but different names for their assemblies and members) but England
>> does not (don't get me
>> started on the West Lothian question).
>>
>> Other member countries of the European Union will have MEPs in
>> addition to representatives of
>> their own national governments and some may have (like the UK)
>> devolved assemblies in
>> addition.  The US has state and federal government.  Oh, and don't
>> forget that technically, the US
>> has three branches of government so we have to decide if we absorb
>> the judiciary into this
>> (does our definition of government differ from that of the US
>> Constitution).
>>
>> It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings here, to
>> come up with a scheme
>> with sensible terminology that works for all those situations. 
>
>
> And those examples are only the ones 'we' are aware of. I'd like some
> thoughts from elsewhere.
>
>
> To me these are all 'politicians' or at least serve a political role
> when acting (I hope) on our behalf to represent 'us'.
> Don't think every situation would be happy with 'parliamentarians'.
>
> I am not going to try and distinguish between the various levels -
> upper and lower houses, federal, state, local, unions etc...
> That could go in the description, far too many variables around the
> world for a single system I think.
> Lets get the first level of tagging done before contemplating a more
> complex area?
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-03 Thread Allan Mustard
He is still a government official, is drawing a government salary, and
the office rent is paid for out of the government budget.  It isn't his
personal office for which he is paying out of his own pocket. 

Political parties don't pay for office expenses of members of Parliament
or other legislatures.  "Politician" would be more appropriate for the
campaign office of candidate who has not yet been elected, but they are
temporary and thus not mappable under OSM guidelines.


On 11/4/2018 6:33 AM, Warin wrote:
> On 04/11/18 11:17, Allan Mustard wrote:
>>
>> Top-level tag IMHO would be office=government, then additional tag
>> would be government=legislature.
>>
>> The three branches of government are the executive, the legislative,
>> and the judicial branches.
>>
>
> Errr...
>
>  this is not to map the executive, the legislative, or the judicial
> branches! Probably why I thought office=politician would be better
> than office=government.
>
> This is to map the personal usually local office of some usually
> elected representative .. so locals can communicate to them and they
> can communicate to locals (who usually elect them). It is not about
> the executive, the legislative, and the judicial branches' but about a
> politician trying to maintain some connection to the people that
> usually elect them .. so they might get re-elected.
>
> Have I put enough 'usually' in there to keep the edge cases happy?
>
>
> An example?
> Tony Abbott ex PM, http://tonyabbott.com.au/ Has an office at Level 2,
> 17 Sydney Road, Manly, NSW 2095 Australia. It is not the office of the
> Liberal Party, nor an office of what ever role he might be playing in
> parliament. It is an office of Tony Abbott the elected representative
> in this area.
>
>
>
>>
>> On 11/4/2018 5:08 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 07:05, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
 It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings
 here, to come up with a scheme
 with sensible terminology that works for all those situations. 
>>> To me these are all 'politicians' or at least serve a political
>>> role when acting (I hope) on our behalf to represent 'us'.
>>> Don't think every situation would be happy with 'parliamentarians'.
>>>
>>> I am not going to try and distinguish between the various levels
>>> - upper and lower houses, federal, state, local, unions etc...
>>> That could go in the description, far too many variables around
>>> the world for a single system I think.
>>> Lets get the first level of tagging done before contemplating a
>>> more complex area?
>>>
>>>
>>> No, I agree with you!
>>>
>>> I would think either of the 2 basic we mentioned should fit
>>> office=government or office=politician 
>>>
>>> Question though (more for someone in Europe) - is a "Member of the
>>> European Parliament" elected, or just appointed by their home
>>> country? Are they a "politician" as such?
>>>
>>> Is there another overall term for elected people? (& yes, I can
>>> think of quite a few terms for them, but I don't think we should be
>>> marking any of them on the map! :-))
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Graeme
>>>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-03 Thread Warin

On 04/11/18 11:17, Allan Mustard wrote:


Top-level tag IMHO would be office=government, then additional tag 
would be government=legislature.


The three branches of government are the executive, the legislative, 
and the judicial branches.




Errr...

 this is not to map the executive, the legislative, or the judicial 
branches! Probably why I thought office=politician would be better than 
office=government.


This is to map the personal usually local office of some usually elected 
representative .. so locals can communicate to them and they can 
communicate to locals (who usually elect them). It is not about the 
executive, the legislative, and the judicial branches' but about a 
politician trying to maintain some connection to the people that usually 
elect them .. so they might get re-elected.


Have I put enough 'usually' in there to keep the edge cases happy?


An example?
Tony Abbott ex PM, http://tonyabbott.com.au/ Has an office at Level 2, 
17 Sydney Road, Manly, NSW 2095 Australia. It is not the office of the 
Liberal Party, nor an office of what ever role he might be playing in 
parliament. It is an office of Tony Abbott the elected representative in 
this area.






On 11/4/2018 5:08 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 07:05, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:



It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings here,
to come up with a scheme
with sensible terminology that works for all those situations.

To me these are all 'politicians' or at least serve a political
role when acting (I hope) on our behalf to represent 'us'.
Don't think every situation would be happy with 'parliamentarians'.

I am not going to try and distinguish between the various levels
- upper and lower houses, federal, state, local, unions etc...
That could go in the description, far too many variables around
the world for a single system I think.
Lets get the first level of tagging done before contemplating a
more complex area?


No, I agree with you!

I would think either of the 2 basic we mentioned should fit 
office=government or office=politician


Question though (more for someone in Europe) - is a "Member of the 
European Parliament" elected, or just appointed by their home 
country? Are they a "politician" as such?


Is there another overall term for elected people? (& yes, I can think 
of quite a few terms for them, but I don't think we should be marking 
any of them on the map! :-))


Thanks

Graeme



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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-03 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:10 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Question though (more for someone in Europe) - is a "Member of the
> European Parliament" elected, or just appointed by their home country? Are
> they a "politician" as such?
>

Elected.  They don't serve any useful purpose since the EU is run by
unelected bureaucrats, but they're
elected.

Is there another overall term for elected people? (& yes, I can think of
> quite a few terms for them, but I don't think we should be marking any of
> them on the map! :-))
>

My local councillor is elected.  Is she counted in this scheme of things?
Local government is
government and getting elected is politics.  Even though it has US
connotations, a general term
might be "representative."

That's why I said this is a can of annelids.  In a rabbit hole.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-03 Thread Allan Mustard
Top-level tag IMHO would be office=government, then additional tag would
be government=legislature.

The three branches of government are the executive, the legislative, and
the judicial branches.


On 11/4/2018 5:08 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 07:05, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings here,
>> to come up with a scheme
>> with sensible terminology that works for all those situations. 
> To me these are all 'politicians' or at least serve a political
> role when acting (I hope) on our behalf to represent 'us'.
> Don't think every situation would be happy with 'parliamentarians'.
>
> I am not going to try and distinguish between the various levels -
> upper and lower houses, federal, state, local, unions etc...
> That could go in the description, far too many variables around
> the world for a single system I think.
> Lets get the first level of tagging done before contemplating a
> more complex area?
>
>
> No, I agree with you!
>
> I would think either of the 2 basic we mentioned should fit
> office=government or office=politician 
>
> Question though (more for someone in Europe) - is a "Member of the
> European Parliament" elected, or just appointed by their home country?
> Are they a "politician" as such?
>
> Is there another overall term for elected people? (& yes, I can think
> of quite a few terms for them, but I don't think we should be marking
> any of them on the map! :-))
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-03 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 07:05, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings here, to come
> up with a scheme
> with sensible terminology that works for all those situations.
>
> To me these are all 'politicians' or at least serve a political role when
> acting (I hope) on our behalf to represent 'us'.
> Don't think every situation would be happy with 'parliamentarians'.
>
> I am not going to try and distinguish between the various levels - upper
> and lower houses, federal, state, local, unions etc...
> That could go in the description, far too many variables around the world
> for a single system I think.
> Lets get the first level of tagging done before contemplating a more
> complex area?
>

No, I agree with you!

I would think either of the 2 basic we mentioned should fit
office=government or office=politician

Question though (more for someone in Europe) - is a "Member of the European
Parliament" elected, or just appointed by their home country? Are they a
"politician" as such?

Is there another overall term for elected people? (& yes, I can think of
quite a few terms for them, but I don't think we should be marking any of
them on the map! :-))

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-03 Thread Warin

On 04/11/18 01:41, Paul Allen wrote:


On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 3:29 AM Allan Mustard > wrote:


Hmmm. Reaching back to my bachelor's degree in political science,
Parliament is also a government body, the legislative branch of
the government, so even a member of the opposition is part of
"government" in its broadest sense.  I would tag it
office=government, government=parliamentarian or something
similar. Executive, legislative, judicial are all "government".

There's a can of annelids here, just waiting to be opened.

Over here in the UK, I have an MP (Member of Parliament) representing 
me in the UK national
government.  There's also the House of Lords (upper chamber), some 
members of which might
have unofficial offices outside of parliament buildings where they can 
be contacted, but a quick
search shows no evidence of such.  Since I live in Wales, I also have 
an AM (Assembly Member)
of the National Assembly of Wales.  And, for a few more months, I have 
an MEP (Member of the
European Parliament).  Scotland and Northern Ireland have devolved 
governments like Wales
(but different names for their assemblies and members) but England 
does not (don't get me

started on the West Lothian question).

Other member countries of the European Union will have MEPs in 
addition to representatives of
their own national governments and some may have (like the UK) 
devolved assemblies in
addition.  The US has state and federal government.  Oh, and don't 
forget that technically, the US
has three branches of government so we have to decide if we absorb the 
judiciary into this
(does our definition of government differ from that of the US 
Constitution).


It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings here, to 
come up with a scheme

with sensible terminology that works for all those situations.



And those examples are only the ones 'we' are aware of. I'd like some 
thoughts from elsewhere.



To me these are all 'politicians' or at least serve a political role 
when acting (I hope) on our behalf to represent 'us'.

Don't think every situation would be happy with 'parliamentarians'.

I am not going to try and distinguish between the various levels - upper 
and lower houses, federal, state, local, unions etc...
That could go in the description, far too many variables around the 
world for a single system I think.
Lets get the first level of tagging done before contemplating a more 
complex area?




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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-03 Thread Paul Allen
On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 3:29 AM Allan Mustard  wrote:

> Hmmm.  Reaching back to my bachelor's degree in political science,
> Parliament is also a government body, the legislative branch of the
> government, so even a member of the opposition is part of "government" in
> its broadest sense.  I would tag it office=government,
> government=parliamentarian or something similar.  Executive, legislative,
> judicial are all "government".
>
There's a can of annelids here, just waiting to be opened.

Over here in the UK, I have an MP (Member of Parliament) representing me in
the UK national
government.  There's also the House of Lords (upper chamber), some members
of which might
have unofficial offices outside of parliament buildings where they can be
contacted, but a quick
search shows no evidence of such.  Since I live in Wales, I also have an AM
(Assembly Member)
of the National Assembly of Wales.  And, for a few more months, I have an
MEP (Member of the
European Parliament).  Scotland and Northern Ireland have devolved
governments like Wales
(but different names for their assemblies and members) but England does not
(don't get me
started on the West Lothian question).

Other member countries of the European Union will have MEPs in addition to
representatives of
their own national governments and some may have (like the UK) devolved
assemblies in
addition.  The US has state and federal government.  Oh, and don't forget
that technically, the US
has three branches of government so we have to decide if we absorb the
judiciary into this
(does our definition of government differ from that of the US Constitution).

It's going to take some careful thought, and many postings here, to come up
with a scheme
with sensible terminology that works for all those situations.  It's going
to make the difference
between a consulate and an embassy seem like a walk in the park.

Do we really want to open this can?  Doesn't matter, somebody will anyway.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-02 Thread Allan Mustard
Hmmm.  Reaching back to my bachelor's degree in political science,
Parliament is also a government body, the legislative branch of the
government, so even a member of the opposition is part of "government"
in its broadest sense.  I would tag it office=government,
government=parliamentarian or something similar.  Executive,
legislative, judicial are all "government".

On 11/3/2018 5:46 AM, Warin wrote:
> On 03/11/18 11:04, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>> I've done office=government with name=Michael Hart MP, Member for
>> Burleigh, which seems to work, but office=politician would also seem OK.
>
> Not all of the elected are 'government' .. a few are 'opposition' :)
>
> Hence my reluctance to use that value.
>
> Oh and there are the occasional ones that desert, not usually ones
> elected to the government though.
>
>>
>> Definitely not an embassy though!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 09:53, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> What tags to use for a local representative to parliament (or any
>> other
>> form of government)?
>>
>>
>> I came across one that was tagged amenity=embassy .. which is not
>> right.
>>
>> But what to use?
>>
>> I have, for the moment, tagged it as office=politician... is there
>> something better?
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-02 Thread Warin

On 03/11/18 11:04, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
I've done office=government with name=Michael Hart MP, Member for 
Burleigh, which seems to work, but office=politician would also seem OK.


Not all of the elected are 'government' .. a few are 'opposition' :)

Hence my reluctance to use that value.

Oh and there are the occasional ones that desert, not usually ones 
elected to the government though.




Definitely not an embassy though!

Thanks

Graeme


On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 09:53, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


Hi,


What tags to use for a local representative to parliament (or any
other
form of government)?


I came across one that was tagged amenity=embassy .. which is not
right.

But what to use?

I have, for the moment, tagged it as office=politician... is there
something better?


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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-02 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
I've done office=government with name=Michael Hart MP, Member for Burleigh,
which seems to work, but office=politician would also seem OK.

Definitely not an embassy though!

Thanks

Graeme


On Sat, 3 Nov 2018 at 09:53, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> What tags to use for a local representative to parliament (or any other
> form of government)?
>
>
> I came across one that was tagged amenity=embassy .. which is not right.
>
> But what to use?
>
> I have, for the moment, tagged it as office=politician... is there
> something better?
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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[Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

2018-11-02 Thread Warin

Hi,


What tags to use for a local representative to parliament (or any other 
form of government)?



I came across one that was tagged amenity=embassy .. which is not right.

But what to use?

I have, for the moment, tagged it as office=politician... is there 
something better?



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging