Re: [Tagging] usage of maxspeed:practical is described as recommended on wiki
I would modify the section [1] by replacing it is recommended by it is suggested and adding at the end a note saying that a large part of the community consider these two tags -smoothness and maxspeed:practical - too subjective. Pieren (I also suspect the 12000 coming from some imports. Such numbers do not say many thing if we don't know how many contributors really used it). [1] Marking surface of road with tag surface without adding it to parallel roads (or adding only tags surface) may lead to unwarranted understating priority of road relative to surrounding[1]- so it is recommended to add also proposed tags smoothness=* and maxspeed:practical=*. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] usage of maxspeed:practical is described as recommended on wiki
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:43:36AM +0200, Pieren wrote: I would modify the section [1] by replacing it is recommended by it is suggested and adding at the end a note saying that a large part of the community consider these two tags -smoothness and maxspeed:practical - too subjective. I have rewritten it even a bit more, hope it is better now. Also changed the old proposal page a bit. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] usage of maxspeed:practical is described as recommended on wiki
On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:43:36AM +0200, Pieren wrote: ...adding at the end a note saying that a large part of the community consider these two tags -smoothness and maxspeed:practical - too subjective. I don't think smoothness is too subjective or anyhow comparable to maxspeed:practical - it may be badly defined and may have strange proposed values, but I think it can still be handled somehow and is generally suitable for the db (can be defined objectively) while practical speed is not. cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] usage of maxspeed:practical is described as recommended on wiki
On Sat, 23 Aug 2014, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Il giorno 23/ago/2014, alle ore 21:08, Ilpo Järvinen ilpo.jarvi...@helsinki.fi ha scritto: How much of such ways that would be a candidate for maxspeed:practical IMHO this is a highly subjective tag that depends heavily on your driving ability and the vehicle and driving comfort you expect. E.g. a moderately modern battle tank can drive 70-90km/h on an open field with no road at all ;-) As we are generally rejecting subjective tagging like suitability and the like, this practical speed tag does not fit well in our system Like I said, I agree that it is pretty subjective tag and don't use it myself. However, my point was to say that there are plenty of highways where the legal speed is the most limiting one by any sane definition (I'm not interested in hearing about clever corners that somebody could certainly invent to counter this claim :-)). ...And one would not expect to have maxspeed:practical in any of those but only maxspeed as people use it only to solve a particular no-other-tag-exists problem case. Thus low number is sort of expected unless we'd have lots of active mappers on all those open fields with no road at all ;-). -- i.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] usage of maxspeed:practical is described as recommended on wiki
See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:surface#maxspeed:practical for proposed change ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] usage of maxspeed:practical is described as recommended on wiki
On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 09:08:08AM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:surface#maxspeed:practical for proposed change with 12000 ways already tagged maxspeed:practical and lack of alternatives I would think twice removing any documentation. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] usage of maxspeed:practical is described as recommended on wiki
2014-08-23 10:48 GMT+02:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 09:08:08AM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:surface#maxspeed:practical for proposed change with 12000 ways already tagged maxspeed:practical and lack of alternatives I would think twice removing any documentation. 12 000 ways is really low number in this situation. Surface tag is used on nearly 9 million roads, number of highway=* ways crossed 76 million. Also, I am not proposing deletion of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxspeed:practical but merely removing it from Key:surface page. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] usage of maxspeed:practical is described as recommended on wiki
On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 10:55:15AM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: 2014-08-23 10:48 GMT+02:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: 12 000 ways is really low number in this situation. Surface tag is used on nearly 9 million roads, number of highway=* ways crossed 76 million. possibly it is used in many situations where other tags are desperately insufficient. No matter how bad it was considered in voting it is sometimes needed. I would be in favor of improving that proposal instead of removing all references. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] usage of maxspeed:practical is described as recommended on wiki
On Sat, 23 Aug 2014, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: 2014-08-23 10:48 GMT+02:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 09:08:08AM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:surface#maxspeed:practical for proposed change with 12000 ways already tagged maxspeed:practical and lack of alternatives I would think twice removing any documentation. 12 000 ways is really low number in this situation. Surface tag is used on nearly 9 million roads, number of highway=* ways crossed 76 million. Since you go into the realms of statistics, could you also estimate few things relevant here: - How much out of those 76 million and 9 million highways/surfaced is directly from import or drawn from imagery, and nobody never really surveyed by a mapper on ground? - How much of the remaining you'd expect to need maxspeed:practical? - How much of such ways that would be a candidate for maxspeed:practical, are within reasonable distance from an active enough mapper? ...In particular, I don't think we have that good mapper coverage for rural areas which is likely very very relevant here. - Also many mappers are likely to not know about maxspeed:practical (I suspect this could be seen as supporting your argument too but might also be relevant to explain low number). Based on the above realism check to your statistics, I come to exactly opposite conclusion than you. 12k is a big number. Out of 4.5M ways with maxspeed, a quick calculation yields to 0.25%, IMHO too few zeros were necessary to represent it for it to be a really low number. I agree with you though that coming up a value for this tag that mappers would agree is unlikely in practice so I don't like/use this tag myself but I can also understand why somebody would want to have such tag. -- i. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] usage of maxspeed:practical is described as recommended on wiki
Il giorno 23/ago/2014, alle ore 21:08, Ilpo Järvinen ilpo.jarvi...@helsinki.fi ha scritto: How much of such ways that would be a candidate for maxspeed:practical IMHO this is a highly subjective tag that depends heavily on your driving ability and the vehicle and driving comfort you expect. E.g. a moderately modern battle tank can drive 70-90km/h on an open field with no road at all ;-) As we are generally rejecting subjective tagging like suitability and the like, this practical speed tag does not fit well in our system cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] usage of maxspeed:practical is described as recommended on wiki
On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 10:33:16PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Il giorno 23/ago/2014, alle ore 21:08, Ilpo Järvinen ilpo.jarvi...@helsinki.fi ha scritto: How much of such ways that would be a candidate for maxspeed:practical IMHO this is a highly subjective tag that depends heavily on your driving ability and the vehicle and driving comfort you expect. E.g. a moderately modern battle tank can drive 70-90km/h on an open field with no road at all ;-) as I wrote on the talk page I am fully in support to update the proposal to include modern tanks and other relevant vehicle types. As we are generally rejecting subjective tagging like suitability and the like, this practical speed tag does not fit well in our system It just fills a gap. Many other tags such as track type and even highway type (primary/secondary...) are highly subjective and used very differently from country to country. There is no reason to think track types are any more objective than maxspeed:practical. Just tagged a road in the Seychelles as tertiary.. I remember it is a slightly difficult single lane partially paved road with a steep incline in some places. Even if I would remember every single detail of the road and use all existing tags - what can you deduce from that? What can routing software deduce from it? If I add maxspeed:practical=25 everyone from anywhere in the world has a first idea what to expect. Even if people would argue that it should be 15 or 30 instead of 25, all other tags taken together are not anywhere close to help you predict a similar value. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
