Re: [Tagging] wetland=bog, why only "receive their water and nutrients from rainfall"?

[John Sturdy]

There's an explanatory notice in Cambridge University Botanical
Gardens, indicating that fens are fed with water from limestone /
chalk springs, which is relatively alkaline, whereas bogs, being fed
by rainwater, are relatively acidic.  The different pH means that
different ranges of plants will grow there.


On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 10:59 AM, David Marchal <pene...@live.fr> wrote:
>
>
> 
>> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 15:59:24 +
>> From: ajt1...@gmail.com
>> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org; tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> Subject: Re: [Tagging] wetland=bog, why only "receive their water and 
>> nutrients from rainfall"?
>>
>> What does "fen" means to you?
>>
>> I've a fairly good idea what I think it means, and I'd never or almost never 
>> tag it as a natural feature (though it may have a name, and the natural 
>> features within it may have names).
>
> In my current understanding, the main difference is that fens at least partly 
> receive water from groundwater, like springs, flow and streams, while bogs 
> are isolated from groundwater and only get water from rain.
>
> Hope I'm not saying you something stupid here, but, if that can help you…
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Re: [Tagging] wetland=bog, why only "receive their water and nutrients from rainfall"?

[David Marchal]

Damn Hotmail!


> From: chris_horm...@gmx.de
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 22:37:07 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] wetland=bog, why only "receive their water and 
> nutrients from rainfall"?
>
> On Saturday 23 January 2016, David Marchal wrote:
> >
> > I tagged some bogs today, and I wondered: why does the wiki restricts
> > bogs to "depressions that receive their water and nutrients from
> > rainfall"? AFAIK, bogs are not necessarily isolated from water
> > streams or bodies. Wikipedia talls about sloping bogs where running
> > water is intercepted in the soil by plants;
>
> There are of course all kind of boundary cases but the typical bog as
> common in many parts of northern Europe is rain fed. In German we have
> the more specific term 'Regenmoor' which indicates this. Mires fed by
> groundwater or water inflow from the outside are usually not bogs.
> See:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mire

Ah, that can explain the difference in my interpretation: in French, bogs and 
fens are usually designated with the same word, "tourbière", which designates 
mires; this word is usually translated in English with "bog". To designate 
fens, we say "tourbière minérotrophe", but essentialy only specialists will 
know about this difference, most people will use "tourbière" for both fens and 
bogs. And now, I see my error: fens are modelled with a different "wetland=*" 
tagging, but, my language using essentially the same word for both, I stopped 
at the first occurence on the wiki page designating a mire, "wetland=bog", 
without understanding that the next one, "wetland=fen", designated exactly what 
I was looking for. The problem is the French translation of this page on the 
wiki, I'll correct it. Thanks for your answer.  
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Re: [Tagging] wetland=bog, why only "receive their water and nutrients from rainfall"?

[David Marchal]

Re-sent message, the first one being misformatted.

> From: chris_horm...@gmx.de
> To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 22:37:07 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] wetland=bog,   why only "receive their water and 
> nutrients from rainfall"?
> 
> On Saturday 23 January 2016, David Marchal wrote:
>>
>> I tagged some bogs today, and I wondered: why does the wiki restricts
>> bogs to "depressions that receive their water and nutrients from
>> rainfall"? AFAIK, bogs are not necessarily isolated from water
>> streams or bodies. Wikipedia talls about sloping bogs where running
>> water is intercepted in the soil by plants; 

Ah, that can explain the difference in my interpretation: in French, bogs and 
fens are usually designated with the same word, "tourbière", which designates 
mires; this word is usually translated in English with "bog". To designate 
fens, we say "tourbière minérotrophe", but essentialy only specialists will 
know about this difference, most people will use "tourbière" for both fens and 
bogs. And now, I see my error: fens are modelled with a different "wetland=*" 
tagging, but, my language using essentially the same word for both, I stopped 
at the first occurence on the wiki page designating a mire, "wetland=bog", 
without understanding that the next one, "wetland=fen", designated exactly what 
I was looking for. The problem is the French translation of this page on the 
wiki, I'll correct it. Thanks for your answer.  
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Re: [Tagging] wetland=bog, why only "receive their water and nutrients from rainfall"?

[David Marchal]

> From: chris_horm...@gmx.de
> There are of course all kind of boundary cases but the typical bog as 
> common in many parts of northern Europe is rain fed. In German we have 
> the more specific term 'Regenmoor' which indicates this. Mires fed by 
> groundwater or water inflow from the outside are usually not bogs. 
> See:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mire
> 
> Of course wetland=bog is currently widely used incorrectly in OSM in 
> that regard. But assessing the specifics of water chemistry and plant 
> communities is not easy so this is somewhat understandable.

Ah, that can explain the difference in my interpretation: in French, bogs and 
fens are usually designated with the same word, "tourbière", which designates 
mires; this word is usually translated in English with "bog". To designate 
fens, we say "tourbière minérotrophe", but essentialy only specialists will 
know about this difference, most people will use "tourbière" for both fens and 
bogs. And now, I see my error: fens are modelled with a different "wetland=*" 
tagging, but, my language using essentially the same word for both, I stopped 
at the first occurence on the wiki page designating a mire, "wetland=bog", 
without understanding that the next one, "wetland=fen", designated exactly what 
I was looking for. The problem is the French translation of this page on the 
wiki, I'll correct it.

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Re: [Tagging] wetland=bog, why only "receive their water and nutrients from rainfall"?

[Andy Mabbett]

On 23 January 2016 at 21:37, Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> the typical bog as
> common in many parts of northern Europe is rain fed.

That's not my understanding. For example I worked on the conservation of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moseley_Bog

which is spring and stream fed.

> Mires fed by
> groundwater or water inflow from the outside are usually not bogs.
> See:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mire

That's contradicted by:

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] wetland=bog, why only "receive their water and nutrients from rainfall"?

[Andy Townsend]

What does "fen" means to you?

I've a fairly good idea what I think it means, and I'd never or almost never 
tag it as a natural feature (though it may have a name, and the natural 
features within it may have names).

I'm a native English speaker (though not native to a fenland area)..

Could you come up with some examples of things that are currently tagged as 
bogs but shouldn't be, or aren't tagged as fens but should be (in the UK and 
Ireland would be helpful to me, as that's what I'm going to be most familiar 
with, but obviously other places will be helpful to other people).

Cheers,

Andy (SomeoneElse)

  Original Message  
From: Christoph Hormann
Sent: Sunday, 24 January 2016 15:47
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Reply To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] wetland=bog, why only "receive their water and nutrients 
from rainfall"?

On Sunday 24 January 2016, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
> > Mires fed by
> > groundwater or water inflow from the outside are usually not bogs.
> > See:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mire
>
> That's contradicted by:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog

Well - I don't want to pass judgement here on the articles - I only 
provided the link because it contains a well readable description of 
the differences. That being said the bog article is quite clearly not 
a shining example of quality in Wikipedia.

The established values for wetland=* in OSM are mostly based on wetland 
classification schemes common in North America which generally make the 
distinction between bogs and fens as indicated. You can find this for 
example on:

http://www.water.ncsu.edu/watershedss/info/wetlands/types3.html
http://www.epa.gov/wetlands/wetlands-classification-and-types
http://www.env.gov.yk.ca/animals-habitat/documents/canadian_wetland_classification_system.pdf

which is of course somewhat biased towards the types of wetland common 
in the region. There would be no problem in using more precise tags 
more clearly distinguishing the nuances in wetland types. There is 
already some limited use of wetland=string_bog/palsa_bog/raised_bog.

Current tag use indicates severe underuse of wetland=fen and overuse of 
wetland=bog. Probably more than half of what is tagged wetland=bog is 
actually incorrect.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] wetland=bog, why only "receive their water and nutrients from rainfall"?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Sunday 24 January 2016, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
> > Mires fed by
> > groundwater or water inflow from the outside are usually not bogs.
> > See:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mire
>
> That's contradicted by:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog

Well - I don't want to pass judgement here on the articles - I only 
provided the link because it contains a well readable description of 
the differences.  That being said the bog article is quite clearly not 
a shining example of quality in Wikipedia.

The established values for wetland=* in OSM are mostly based on wetland 
classification schemes common in North America which generally make the 
distinction between bogs and fens as indicated.  You can find this for 
example on:

http://www.water.ncsu.edu/watershedss/info/wetlands/types3.html
http://www.epa.gov/wetlands/wetlands-classification-and-types
http://www.env.gov.yk.ca/animals-habitat/documents/canadian_wetland_classification_system.pdf

which is of course somewhat biased towards the types of wetland common 
in the region.  There would be no problem in using more precise tags 
more clearly distinguishing the nuances in wetland types.  There is 
already some limited use of wetland=string_bog/palsa_bog/raised_bog.

Current tag use indicates severe underuse of wetland=fen and overuse of 
wetland=bog.  Probably more than half of what is tagged wetland=bog is 
actually incorrect.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] wetland=bog, why only "receive their water and nutrients from rainfall"?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Sunday 24 January 2016, Andy Townsend wrote:
> What does "fen" means to you?
>
> I've a fairly good idea what I think it means, and I'd never or
> almost never tag it as a natural feature (though it may have a name,
> and the natural features within it may have names).

As a non-native English speaker i do not have a genuine understanding of 
the word fen but in terms of wetland types i consider fens peat 
producing wetlands with lower acidity and higher levels of nutrients 
and therefore hosting more diverse plant communities than bogs.  There 
are boundary cases of course.

> Could you come up with some examples of things that are currently
> tagged as bogs but shouldn't be, or aren't tagged as fens but should
> be (in the UK and Ireland would be helpful to me, as that's what I'm
> going to be most familiar with, but obviously other places will be
> helpful to other people).

For the UK/Ireland this is difficult without local knowledge.  Due to 
the climate and geology blanket bogs are very widespread there and the 
presence of a stream in the area for example does not necessarily mean 
it feeds the wetland - it can still be primarily fed by rainfall.

Here in Germany with a drier, more continental climate you can pretty 
much rule out any wetland at the shore of a larger lake or next to a 
larger river to be a bog.  Like: 

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/51.0768/12.4432
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/51.0303/12.4669
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/53.9642/13.1271
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/54.00570/12.12454
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/48.1004/11.1292

And if you look at 

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/wetland=bog#map

you can also see bogs mapped in regions (like Tunesia) where climate 
would not allow the formation of bogs.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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[Tagging] wetland=bog, why only "receive their water and nutrients from rainfall"?

[David Marchal]

Hello, there.

I tagged some bogs today, and I wondered: why does the wiki restricts bogs to 
"depressions that receive their water and nutrients from rainfall"? AFAIK, bogs 
are not necessarily isolated from water streams or bodies. Wikipedia talls 
about sloping bogs where running water is intercepted in the soil by plants; at 
least one well-known example comes to my mind, the lac de Lispach, in France, 
which is crossed by a river and still hosts a bog, and I saw 2 more exeamples 
today on a hike in the French mountains Vosges. Shouldn't this restriction be 
lifted, as it does not seem to be justified?

Furthermore, how could rain bring nutrients? It only brings, at least directly, 
water, and can only bring nutrients indirectly, like with erosion or bringing 
leaves.

Awaiting your answers,

Regards.  
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Re: [Tagging] wetland=bog, why only "receive their water and nutrients from rainfall"?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Saturday 23 January 2016, David Marchal wrote:
>
> I tagged some bogs today, and I wondered: why does the wiki restricts
> bogs to "depressions that receive their water and nutrients from
> rainfall"? AFAIK, bogs are not necessarily isolated from water
> streams or bodies. Wikipedia talls about sloping bogs where running
> water is intercepted in the soil by plants; 

There are of course all kind of boundary cases but the typical bog as 
common in many parts of northern Europe is rain fed.  In German we have 
the more specific term 'Regenmoor' which indicates this.  Mires fed by 
groundwater or water inflow from the outside are usually not bogs.  
See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mire

Of course wetland=bog is currently widely used incorrectly in OSM in 
that regard.  But assessing the specifics of water chemistry and plant 
communities is not easy so this is somewhat understandable.

> at least one well-known 
> example comes to my mind, the lac de Lispach, in France, which is
> crossed by a river and still hosts a bog, and I saw 2 more exeamples
> today on a hike in the French mountains Vosges. Shouldn't this
> restriction be lifted, as it does not seem to be justified?

Note this is not a restriction of OSM, it is simply what bogs are.  If 
you'd lift it you could simply drop most of the wetland=* distinction 
alltogether.

There are true bogs in the Vosges - like around Le Tanet and Gazon du 
Faing but it seems unlikely that what you observe at the Lac de Lispach 
is a bog.

> Furthermore, how could rain bring nutrients? It only brings, at least
> directly, water, and can only bring nutrients indirectly, like with
> erosion or bringing leaves.

Nutrients can arrive via air and through rainfall.  Dust from the Sahara 
has been found to be an important source of nutrients for the Amazon 
rain forest for example.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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