Re: [Tagging] Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

2019-08-18 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 14:13, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: this is what you can always do, and what you should do if you don’t know > the specifics, although from a survey (or even from detailed aerial > imagery) even a city dweller would usually be able to distinguish at least > pasture from

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - protection_class=* (Words, not numeric codes)

2019-08-18 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
Kevin, The proposal looks pretty good. When you've finished editing, please make a clear list off all the new, proposed tags, in one place. Also please clarify what pages are being edited and if protect_class=* is being deprecated by this proposal. It might make sense to deprecate all values of

Re: [Tagging] Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

2019-08-18 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 14:52, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > landuse=meadow is also used for pasture, as mentioned on it's wiki > page and description. Since it's not always obvious if grass is going > to be grazed or cut for hay, it would often be difficult to tell the > difference. > I didn't spot

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Rob Savoye
On 8/18/19 9:41 AM, Paul Allen wrote: > Assuming that "CR 2" is a name and not a ref, one possibility that > springs to mind, and which will no doubt be highly controversial is Yes, it's county designated name. It's gets messier than that, as sometimes "CR 2" might include multiple other road

Re: [Tagging] Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

2019-08-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 18. Aug 2019, at 01:17, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > > So at least we know it probably isn’t a meadow or a farmyard or an orchard? and not used for pasture Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org

Re: [Tagging] Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

2019-08-18 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 07:40, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > But I see that there is some desire for a tag for generic cropland, or > farmland used to grow unspecified crops. For this I would suggest the > key "farmland=cropland" or "crop=field_cropland", rather than crop=yes > (less specific) or

Re: [Tagging] Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

2019-08-18 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
It's unlikely that a synonym of landuse=farmland will be accepted by most mappers. That's why I suggested using something like landuse=farmland + farmland=cropland - the key farmland=* is already used (though not in a very consistent or helpful way). Or cropland=yes would also work fine. For

Re: [Tagging] Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

2019-08-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 18. Aug 2019, at 15:41, Paul Allen wrote: > > Thinking about it, maybe we should reactivate landuse=pasture and add > landuse=arable. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arable_land which makes the > distinction between pasture, arable land, and land for permanent woody

Re: [Tagging] Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

2019-08-18 Thread Warin
On 18/08/19 16:39, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: "Crop is a produce" What does that mean? The word "crop" in British English means " a cultivated plant that is grown on a large scale commercially, especially a cereal, fruit, or vegetable. (Oxford); or "a plant such as a grain, fruit, or vegetable

Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?

2019-08-18 Thread ael
On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 10:46:45PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > On 17. Aug 2019, at 22:36, ael wrote: > > > > But do we have any generic terms already? Unless > > you just mean office. > > > businesses can already be found in amenity (e.g. food and drink, pharmacies, > post

Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?

2019-08-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 18. Aug 2019, at 11:53, ael wrote: > > Of course, the more specific tagging is right where there is a good > match. +1, and where there isn’t yet a good match I’d prefer to invent one. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing

Re: [Tagging] Roles of route members (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, ...)

2019-08-18 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 10:01, Sarah Hoffmann wrote: > > I have no issue if relations require reasonable processing to get to a > result > but I would like to see enough information encoded in the route relation > that > the processing invariably gets me to the result that the mapper intended. >

Re: [Tagging] Roles of route members (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, ...)

2019-08-18 Thread Sarah Hoffmann
On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 01:11:17AM -0700, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Peter Elderson wrote: > > I would like to see this software in operation! Could you give me the > > links of some applications > > I use my code in the backend of cycle.travel. It's not open source. I've > seen code used by

Re: [Tagging] Roles of route members (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, ...)

2019-08-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 18. Aug 2019, at 14:43, Paul Allen wrote: > > Maybe > we shouldn't ever insist that mappers sort the routes they add, but I don't > think > we should discourage them if they want to put in that effort. +1, this is my opinion as well. Sorted routes make it usually

Re: [Tagging] Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

2019-08-18 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
landuse=meadow is also used for pasture, as mentioned on it's wiki page and description. Since it's not always obvious if grass is going to be grazed or cut for hay, it would often be difficult to tell the difference. I normally only use landuse=farmland for cropland, since the other times of

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Julien djakk
Hello Rob ! If you have several name or several ref, you can use the “;” separator Julien “djakk” Le dim. 18 août 2019 à 17:17, Rob Savoye a écrit : > Where I live in rural Colorado, many of the roads have 3 names. The > county designated one like "CR 2", but often have an alternate name >

Re: [Tagging] Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

2019-08-18 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
"Crop is a produce" What does that mean? The word "crop" in British English means " a cultivated plant that is grown on a large scale commercially, especially a cereal, fruit, or vegetable. (Oxford); or "a plant such as a grain, fruit, or vegetable grown in large amounts" (Cambridge). Plants

[Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Rob Savoye
Where I live in rural Colorado, many of the roads have 3 names. The county designated one like "CR 2", but often have an alternate name everyone uses like "Corkscrew Gulch Road", and then many have a US Forest Service designation like "FS 729.2B". I usually use the common name as the 'name' tag,

Re: [Tagging] Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

2019-08-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 18. Aug 2019, at 08:39, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > > For this I would suggest the > key "farmland=cropland" or ok > "crop=field_cropland", not ok IMHO, field cropland is a kind if field, not a kind of crop > rather than crop=yes to me this isn’t perfect (yes

Re: [Tagging] Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

2019-08-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 18. Aug 2019, at 14:10, Paul Allen wrote: > > Land in crop rotation may be left fallow for a year, with no crop. OTOH, > where the land is very uneven then it might be used for nothing but pasture > (sheep or goats are the usual "crop" on land like that). +1, also

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 16:17, Rob Savoye wrote: > Where I live in rural Colorado, many of the roads have 3 names. The > county designated one like "CR 2", but often have an alternate name > everyone uses like "Corkscrew Gulch Road", and then many have a US > Forest Service designation like "FS

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 19:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > for several names it is common to use variations of the name tag, like > alt_name reg_name etc. > Yep. And in many cases those, along with loc_name, may be the best way to handle it. But only name (and ref, if used) get rendered

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 19:55, Rob Savoye wrote: > So no space ? USFS roads use "FS " with a space, at least that seems > to be common. So should those be "FS739.1A' ? > My opinion is "paint the label." Others disagree. Make up your own mind which is better. -- Paul

Re: [Tagging] Roles of route members (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, ...)

2019-08-18 Thread Peter Elderson
Richard Fairhurst : > Sarah Hoffman wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 01:11:17AM -0700, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > > Peter Elderson wrote: > > > > The point is, as it is it's not good enough for data use besides > > > > rendering. you can't rely on route relations for anything but > >

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
):NFH for a National Forest Highway, or US:NFSR:(name of the > forest):NFR for a National Forest Road. If the renderer that I've been > linking to in this message gets one of those (or just USFS for the > network, but the same numbers can be reused many times, so it's better > to have the

Re: [Tagging] Roles of route members (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, ...)

2019-08-18 Thread Richard Fairhurst
Sarah Hoffman wrote: > On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 01:11:17AM -0700, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > Peter Elderson wrote: > > > The point is, as it is it's not good enough for data use besides > > > rendering. you can't rely on route relations for anything but > rendering > > > > Once again: pretty

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
It looks like "CR 2" is a "ref" rather than a name, and so is FS 729.2B. A ref=, short for "reference number" (or more properly "reference alphanumeric string") is a set of letters and numbers that identifies a feature. While it's best to have the common name in the tag name=, like name=Corkscrew

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Johnparis
Normally it would be "ref:usfs" rather than "usfs:ref". I frequently use tags like "ref:FR:STIF" where STIF is an agreed tag within FR (France). And yes, the main ref for the cited road would be "ref=CR 2". Included spaces in a ref tag vary by local consensus. Some places might use "ref=CR2". If

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 18:29, Rob Savoye wrote: > > Since I usually validate by truck, I use whatever the street sign > says, since that's what the driver uses. A few weeks ago we were at a > structure fire and a local had put up his own road sign, but with the > wrong name! We decided to

Re: [Tagging] Roles of route members (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, ...)

2019-08-18 Thread Peter Elderson
Kevin Kenny : > >> On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 3:31 PM Peter Elderson wrote: >> I'm afraid testing is all I can offer. I could list problems to detect, but >> I think I would not be telling you news. Very important: handle nested >> relations (hierarchies). RA currently does not. > > Uhm, yeah,

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Richard Fairhurst
Rob Savoye wrote: > Where I live in rural Colorado, many of the roads have 3 names. > The county designated one like "CR 2", but often have an alternate > name everyone uses like "Corkscrew Gulch Road", and then many > have a US Forest Service designation like "FS 729.2B". name=Corkscrew

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Rob Savoye
On 8/18/19 11:09 AM, Johnparis wrote: > Normally it would be "ref:usfs" rather than "usfs:ref". Thanks, I just found the ref=* page. Also noticed 'loc_name' and 'nat_name', and it looks like those plus ref* are used for routing. Anyway, I like the ref:usfs tag, and will use that, and ref= for

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 18. Aug 2019, at 17:41, Paul Allen wrote: > > Ugly and probably breaks many explicit and implicit rules. You'll no doubt > find out > all the ways it is a bad idea very shortly. for several names it is common to use variations of the name tag, like alt_name

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Rob Savoye
On 8/18/19 12:24 PM, Paul Allen wrote: > If the owner calls in a fire at his house, he's going to use his own > wrong name for the road.  So you'd probably be best to have it as a loc_name, > then > there's a chance of somebody other than you finding it. Luckily a neighbor called it in, he

Re: [Tagging] Is crop=yes tag completely and utterly useless?

2019-08-18 Thread Warin
On 18/08/19 22:10, Paul Allen wrote: On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 07:40, Joseph Eisenberg mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote: But I see that there is some desire for a tag for generic cropland, or farmland used to grow unspecified crops. For this I would suggest the key

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Rob Savoye
On 8/18/19 10:27 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > name=Corkscrew Gulch Road > ref=CR 2 > usfs:ref=FS 729.2B Interesting, I didn't realize "usfs:ref" is a tag. I have used ref for camp site numbers, didn't know it supported alphanumerics. I dug around, and don't see usfs:ref being used, at least

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 18. Aug 2019, at 20:36, Rob Savoye wrote: > > Luckily a neighbor called it in, he wasn't home. using 'loc_name' or > 'alt_name' makes sense. This entire area doesn't even exist in Google > Maps, so people not using OSM couldn't find it till we gave directions > on the

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Rob Savoye
On 8/18/19 12:42 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > names in OSM are usually in natural language, CR2 is probably what > OpenStreetMap calls a ref, which is for numbers and alphanumeric > codes. The other name is also looking like a code, I agree with > Richard’s suggestion to use one name and 2

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Kevin Kenny
linking to in this message gets one of those (or just USFS for the network, but the same numbers can be reused many times, so it's better to have the forest included), it'll produce a shield that looks like https://kbk.is-a-geek.net/attachments/20190818/nfsr2336.png. If a road has no name othe

Re: [Tagging] Roles of route members (was: Merging tagging scheme on wiki pages of Hiking, ...)

2019-08-18 Thread Kevin Kenny
On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 3:31 PM Peter Elderson wrote: > I'm afraid testing is all I can offer. I could list problems to detect, but I > think I would not be telling you news. Very important: handle nested > relations (hierarchies). RA currently does not. Uhm, yeah, that's a problem. For what

Re: [Tagging] Bicycle kitchens, community centres that offer bicycle repairs etc

2019-08-18 Thread Morten Lange via Tagging
Hello, I am skeptical as that makes finding them less straightforward, if you are looking for   [ a place where I can get my bicycle repaired or receive some help].Many potential users will not know about bicycle kitchens or that other community centres offer bicycle repairs.But I think they

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Warin
On 19/08/19 05:16, Paul Allen wrote: On Sun, 18 Aug 2019 at 19:55, Rob Savoye > wrote:   So no space ? USFS roads use "FS " with a space, at least that seems to be common. So should those be "FS739.1A' ? My opinion is "paint the label."  Others disagree. 

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
I would have expected tracktype=grade2 for a gravel road. Is it common to use grade1 in that area for very well built, quality gravel roads? Joseph On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 12:11 PM Johnparis wrote: > Don't know how you deduced "no space?" from Martin's comment. A space is > an alphanumeric

Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?

2019-08-18 Thread Warin
On 19/08/19 10:20, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: This: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-March/044160.html was the original discussion that I had been going to expand on, with the possibility of trade= for places like a plumber's workshop / shed etc. There was also

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Johnparis
Don't know how you deduced "no space?" from Martin's comment. A space is an alphanumeric character. In any case, as I mentioned, there is normally a local consensus on space-versus-no space, and as others have mentioned, it's up to you. The problem with space-vs-no space arises particularly with

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
F Street and 1st Street (usually written out as First Street, though this depends on the local standards) are a common name, which goes in the name field. 1st Street might also be part of County Road (CR) #312, which would be ref=CR 312 or =CR312 or similar. The idea is that most people locally

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Paul Johnson
On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 10:24 PM Joseph Eisenberg < joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote: > F Street and 1st Street (usually written out as First Street, though > this depends on the local standards) are a common name, which goes in > the name field. > It can also be regionally dependent. Oklahoma

Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?

2019-08-18 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
Re “What's the preference of trade= against business= plumbers, electricians, builders etc who don't work out of an "office"?” Some of those do have offices, especially if it’s a company that employed several plumbers. But trade= is better than generic business= for the workshop of an individual

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Kevin Kenny
On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 11:30 PM Rob Savoye wrote: > > Tag *names*, by contrast, use an underscore instead of a space. > > Kevin Kenny's comment above indicates what appears to be the > > consensus on the tag name(s) in the USA. So in theory you might have > >

Re: [Tagging] Keys to which new values can be added without a proposal: craft=, shop=, building=, office=, sport=?

2019-08-18 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
This: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-March/044160.html was the original discussion that I had been going to expand on, with the possibility of trade= for places like a plumber's workshop / shed etc. There was also discussion about craft= being more used for "one-off"

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Paul Johnson
On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 10:16 AM Rob Savoye wrote: > Where I live in rural Colorado, many of the roads have 3 names. The > county designated one like "CR 2", but often have an alternate name > everyone uses like "Corkscrew Gulch Road", and then many have a US > Forest Service designation like

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread brad
So is F street, or 1st street a name or a ref? On 8/18/19 10:27 AM, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: It looks like "CR 2" is a "ref" rather than a name, and so is FS 729.2B. A ref=, short for "reference number" (or more properly "reference alphanumeric string") is a set of letters and numbers that

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Rob Savoye
On 8/18/19 9:09 PM, Johnparis wrote: > Don't know how you deduced "no space?" from Martin's comment. A space > is an alphanumeric character. In any case, as I mentioned, there is I just read too much into example of 'CR2'... I'm just trying to get it right, so routing works better. I prefer the

Re: [Tagging] roads with many names

2019-08-18 Thread Andrew Davidson
On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 1:45 AM Julien djakk wrote: > > If you have several name or several ref, you can use the “;” separator > > Name tags with ";" in them get flagged as a problem to fix by validators. If there are more than one alternative names for something I use alt_name=* alt_name:1=*