[Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread John Willis via Tagging
Questions about using cycle relations properly: I am mapping and repairing cycle roads in the Kanto/Tokyo area. There are a lot of designated cycling roads that follow a long rivers and other water features out into the countryside, making up a regional system, and a lot of smaller local

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Alan Mackie
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 at 15:50, Vɑdɪm wrote: > Florian Lohoff-2 wrote > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 08:38:28AM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > Mapping large, multi-lane roads with a "do not cross line" in the > > middle as single line requires 4-5 times the number of turn > > restrictions. These are

Re: [Tagging] railway crossings with cycleways

2019-10-11 Thread John Willis via Tagging
I think it depends on the country - most cycling roads in Japan “end” and dump you into a sidewalk to cross rail crossings - otherwise they either avoid the grade crossing or end and put you into regular road traffic to use the road’s grade crossing. they are basically 1-2km long sections of

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 10:26 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken < snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com>: > > A level strip of grass can be crossed by any car. With a big SUV you > can cross curbs and so on. It's just a questions about how big your car > is and the nature of the physical separation. But I don't

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Philip Barnes
On Friday, 11 October 2019, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 10:26 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken < > snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com>: > > > > > A level strip of grass can be crossed by any car. With a big SUV you > > can cross curbs and so on. It's just a questions about how big

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
Have you discussed this with the individual mappers via changeset messages or on a Japanese forum/mailing list? Joseph On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 4:12 PM John Willis via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > Questions about using cycle relations properly: > > I am mapping and repairing

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Snusmumriken
On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 17:57 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > Am Do., 10. Okt. 2019 um 16:10 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken < > snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com>: > > For example if you try to create a routing advice for a car > > journey. > > Let's say that the journey starts at Main street

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Snusmumriken
On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 10:31 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 10:26 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken < > snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com>: > > A level strip of grass can be crossed by any car. With a big SUV > > you > > can cross curbs and so on. It's just a questions about how

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
11 Oct 2019, 10:31 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: > Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 10:26 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken <> > snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com > >: > >> >> A level strip of grass can be crossed by any car. With a big SUV you >> can cross curbs and so on.

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread Warin
On 11/10/19 18:04, John Willis via Tagging wrote: Questions about using cycle relations properly: I am mapping and repairing cycle roads in the Kanto/Tokyo area. There are a lot of designated cycling roads that follow a long rivers and other water features out into the countryside, making up

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
11 Oct 2019, 10:50 by snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com: > On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 10:31 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > >> Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 10:26 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken < >> snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com>: >> > A level strip of grass can be crossed by any car. With a big SUV >> >

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Snusmumriken
On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 10:57 +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > > > 11 Oct 2019, 10:50 by snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com: > > On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 10:31 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 10:26 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken < > > > snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com>: > >

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Snusmumriken
On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 19:53 +0200, Markus wrote: > On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 at 16:10, Snusmumriken > wrote: > > For example if you try to create a routing advice for a car > > journey. > > Let's say that the journey starts at Main street number 10 and that > > Main street is a two way street where the

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 11:10 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken < snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com>: > It is up to the driver. I think he can ignore most of the traffic laws > in the cause of getting as fast and as safe to where he needs to go. So > he would use his own judgment and not so much what a

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Colin Smale
On 2019-10-11 11:09, Snusmumriken wrote: > It is up to the driver. I think he can ignore most of the traffic laws > in the cause of getting as fast and as safe to where he needs to go. So > he would use his own judgment and not so much what a routing engine > tells him what he can do. That may

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Philip Barnes
Not just the driver. Routing software can be used to determine which vehicle can give the quickest response. Phil (trigpoint) On Friday, 11 October 2019, Snusmumriken wrote: > On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 10:57 +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > > > > > > > 11 Oct 2019, 10:50 by

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Peter Elderson
But where pedestrian crossing is not allowed at all, as in the case I described, two ways tagging does not give this routing problem. These roads are not for pedestrians, there is no sidewalk, and if there is a separate footway or cycleway it is physically separated and cyclists/pedestrians

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Markus
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019, 11:21 Snusmumriken, wrote: > > That tag is about lane changing, I don't see how it could be applied to > my example > If i understand the wiki page correctly, lanes=2 lanes:forward=1 lanes:backward=1 change:lanes:forward=not_left change:lanes:backward=not_left would mean

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Markus
On Fri, 11 Oct 2019, 22:00 Peter Elderson, wrote: > But where pedestrian crossing is not allowed at all, as in the case I > described, two ways tagging does not give this routing problem. > No, but it's again not the only solution: the information that crossing the road isn't permitted can also

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Peter Elderson
Then you wouldn’t tag separate carriageways on that particular way. In my country, lots of roads have carriageways separated by two lines with a green paint band of 1 m in between. I understand this is a type of european lining. Sometimes there is grass in between for a stretch, or vertical

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread Phyks
Hi, I've found similar issues in France recently. Cycling routes is too broad and diverse and covers various realities. From a rendering perspective (disclaimer: I'm one of the maintainer of the new CyclOSM rendering style, https://cyclosm.org), it is very often a nightmare to try to figure out

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread Andy Townsend
On 11/10/2019 12:51, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: 11 Oct 2019, 12:37 by rich...@systemed.net (I have a fair few lines of code in cycle.travel's rendering and routing codes to blacklist certain routes in OSM which are made up or otherwise unsuitable.) Can you list made-up lines

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread Warin
On 12/10/19 03:28, Phyks wrote: Hi, I've found similar issues in France recently. Cycling routes is too broad and diverse and covers various realities. From a rendering perspective (disclaimer: I'm one of the maintainer of the new CyclOSM rendering style, https://cyclosm.org), it is very often

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread John Willis via Tagging
> On Oct 12, 2019, at 1:28 AM, Phyks wrote: > > Hi, > > I've found similar issues in France recently. Cycling routes is too > broad and diverse and covers various realities. From a rendering > perspective (disclaimer: I'm one of the maintainer of the new CyclOSM > rendering style,

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Snusmumriken
On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 11:32 +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > > 11 Oct 2019, 11:19 by snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com: > > My assumption is that pedestrian routing engine would stick to > > sidewalks and crossings and not to tell the pedestrian to cross a > > street where there is no crossing.

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread John Willis via Tagging
Am I misunderstanding something fundamental? Mapping cycle route relations Sounds a lot like mapping bus routes: mapping the designated routes of existing public/private routes seems to be useful - mapping where you like to drive your RV around With a bus route relation and inter-mixing that

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Snusmumriken
On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 11:21 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 11:10 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken < > snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com>: > > It is up to the driver. I think he can ignore most of the traffic > > laws > > in the cause of getting as fast and as safe to where

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread Richard Fairhurst
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > wouldn't it be better to delete them from OSM if they are made up? It would, but I have limited hours in the day to police every single cycle route relation in OSM. I lose track of the amount of time I spent on user messages and changeset comments trying to get the

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Kevin Kenny
On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 5:21 AM Snusmumriken wrote: > My assumption is that pedestrian routing engine would stick to > sidewalks and crossings and not to tell the pedestrian to cross a > street where there is no crossing. The individual pedestrian can of > course make up his own mind what

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Snusmumriken
On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 12:48 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken < > snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com>: > > Just to be clear, I'm not advocating that legal separation MUST > > lead to > > way separation. Just that a rule that wouldn't allow it

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Florian Lohoff
Hi On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 10:59:53PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > I had a quick 10 Minute Look at Mapillary and i have found 10s of > > examples of separate way although no physical barrier.  > > > It can be easily done for any kind of mistake. > > Have you tried comparing it to split

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
11 Oct 2019, 13:23 by f...@zz.de: > Hi > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 10:59:53PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > >> > I had a quick 10 Minute Look at Mapillary and i have found 10s of >> > examples of separate way although no physical barrier.  >> > >> It can be easily done for any kind of

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
11 Oct 2019, 12:18 by tagging@openstreetmap.org: > > Is there something Im not understanding? Can anyone make a route relation for > any Way regardless if it is actually a designated oute by a city, signed, or > publically documented? > Such tagging for rendering happens but is incorrect and

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
11 Oct 2019, 12:37 by rich...@systemed.net > (I have a fair few lines of code in cycle.travel's rendering and routing > codes to blacklist certain routes in OSM which are made up or otherwise > unsuitable.) > Can you list made-up lines that pollute

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Paul Johnson
On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 5:38 AM Snusmumriken wrote: > On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 11:21 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > > > > Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 11:10 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken < > > snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com>: > > > It is up to the driver. I think he can ignore most of the traffic >

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread Richard Fairhurst
John Willis wrote: > I want to delete these fake “mountain workout” relations that > should be mapped in strava or a similar workout app. Fully agree. Go for it. OSM is for verifiable, signposted cycle routes and verifiable, real cycling infrastructure. If a route is on the way to being

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
11 Oct 2019, 13:04 by snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com: > On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 12:48 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > >> Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken < >> snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com>: >> > Just to be clear, I'm not advocating that legal separation MUST >> >

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Snusmumriken
On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 13:47 +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > Redefining stuff without very, very good > reason seems to be a bad idea. I don't see it as any kind of redefinition. I've been mapping like that for many years. And as Florian Lohoff pointed out, so has many others also.

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
11 Oct 2019, 11:09 by snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com: > On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 10:57 +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > >> >> >> >> 11 Oct 2019, 10:50 by snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com: >> > On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 10:31 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: >> > > Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 10:26 Uhr

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
11 Oct 2019, 11:19 by snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com: > My assumption is that pedestrian routing engine would stick to > sidewalks and crossings and not to tell the pedestrian to cross a > street where there is no crossing. The individual pedestrian can of > course make up his own mind what

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 12:39 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken < snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com>: > Just to be clear, I'm not advocating that legal separation MUST lead to > way separation. Just that a rule that wouldn't allow it would be a very > bad rule. What makes most sense based upon the ground

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
11 Oct 2019, 14:59 by pelder...@gmail.com: > > >> Op 11 okt. 2019 om 11:22 heeft Philip Barnes het >> volgende geschreven: >> >> Not just the driver. Routing software can be used to determine which vehicle >> can give the quickest response. >> >> Phil (trigpoint) >> > > I would never trust

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
11 Oct 2019, 11:22 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl: > > On 2019-10-11 11:09, Snusmumriken wrote: > > >> It is up to the driver. I think he can ignore most of the traffic laws >> in the cause of getting as fast and as safe to where he needs to go. So >> he would use his own judgment and not so much

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 12:38 Uhr schrieb Richard Fairhurst < rich...@systemed.net>: > (I have a fair few lines of code in cycle.travel's rendering and routing > codes to blacklist certain routes in OSM which are made up or otherwise > unsuitable.) wouldn't it be better to delete them from

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread Dave F via Tagging
Are you able to properly verify these are all "Random road your cycling club likes to ride on the weekend" & not designated/signed routes? ATM it appears you're vetting them purely on the class of highway used. Designated cycle routes can go along "just regular roads, with no designation for

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
11 Oct 2019, 12:38 by snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com: > On Fri, 2019-10-11 at 11:21 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > >> >> >> Am Fr., 11. Okt. 2019 um 11:10 Uhr schrieb Snusmumriken < >> snusmumriken.map...@runbox.com>: >> > It is up to the driver. I think he can ignore most of the traffic

Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse

2019-10-11 Thread John Willis via Tagging
> On Oct 11, 2019, at 8:52 PM, Mateusz Konieczny > wrote: > > Can anyone make a route relation for any Way regardless if it is actually a > designated oute by a city, signed, or publically documented? > Such tagging for rendering happens > but is incorrect and should be deleted. This is what

Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two

2019-10-11 Thread Peter Elderson
> Op 11 okt. 2019 om 11:22 heeft Philip Barnes het > volgende geschreven: > > Not just the driver. Routing software can be used to determine which vehicle > can give the quickest response. > > Phil (trigpoint) I would never trust OSM data for emergency routing or any purpose requiring