Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
Well, perhaps I misunderstood the proposal. It sounded to me like the proposal was that a store aimed at selling building materials to professional builders, but not the general public, would simply be tagged shop=trade, with no further qualifiers to specify what trade was intended. -- John F. Eldredge -- [email protected] "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On October 18, 2015 5:55:23 AM ael wrote: On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 07:28:39PM -0500, John Eldredge wrote: I find shop=trade too generic to be useful, as there are many different trades besides the building-construction trades. Where does that constraint come from? You can have the subtag trade take pretty well any relevant value. Building_materials just happened to be the original motivation. As for "white-collar" and such, that seems to be some sort of local class distinction. There is absolutely no such intention in the original proposal. Rather "trade" suggests "professional", and as such perhaps to be admired and emulated. But really it was invented as a way to tag clear groups of places that had no obvious existing tags, and using the subtag had the great advantage that applications did not have to know all the possible values of "trade". Applications can just include them in, say, a group of shop POIs in the vicinity. The user can then inspect and decide which are of interest. Having a plethora of slightly different main tags seems an inferior approach. But again, the subtag trade again has the vast advantage that it is completely compatible with as many main tags as needed. Some values of trade might become redundant if a new main tag is invented, but that is ok. What am I missing? ael ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
> On Oct 19, 2015, at 12:39 AM, Philip Barnes wrote: > > Trade is more an access tag, you can have a shop=motor_spares for > example. Some are open to the public, Is that really implied in the trade tag? I understand if you need a license or certification to buy parts - but a shop is still a shop. Shouldn't access restrictions be in access? In Japan 99% of car parts require a mechanics license (or similar) to buy. If I wanted to do anything other than change the oil, I am out of luck. This is the same situation for buying electrical sub-panels for a house, or large plumbing fixtures - DIY stores and automotive stores in Japan have huge sections missing. In America, I can pretty much buy and do any repair I am comfortable doing. Many things I could access at a DIY store (Home Depot) or at a specialty shop for professionals are not accessible to access=customer here. Therefore, A small specialty store that caters to professionals, or a small office of a specialty tradesmen may have very different levels of "access" depending on country. Warehouse stores have memberships (Costco) - but are still widely used (i would still consider it access=customers) But maybe we need an access=membership or access=certified for these kinds of cases. Moving the access to um, access seems appropriate. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 12:59:28PM +0200, Matthijs Melissen wrote: > On 18 October 2015 at 12:55, ael wrote: > > But really it was invented as a way to tag clear groups of places that > > had no obvious existing tags > > Do you have a source for that? (Not questioning you, just curious to > read the original discussion.) Here is the first message : see the rest of the thread. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2010-June/002682.html I see that it was John Smith who first suggested using a sub-tag. ael ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 04:39:37PM +0100, Philip Barnes wrote: > Trade is more an access tag, you can have a shop=motor_spares for > example. Some are open to the public, others are exclusively to sell to > other businesses and will refuse access to normal people. The same is > true for some shop=diy, others such as B&Q whilst open to all do have a > separate trade entrance where no doubt different prices are charged. Well, we did not imply that strict interpretation when inventing the trade tag. We explicitly stated that most of such places also accepted ordinary retail customers. While I agree that a small minority of such places (in the UK at least) do enforce such a strict policy, it is rare. If we had intended such, indeed we would have proposed something like access=trade. That is not what we did. So no, that is not what trade means here. > As for tagging, I would propose shop=*, access=trade/public although > the default of public would be assumed if no tag. Yes, you can have that as well, although using the same trade keyword is surely a potential source of confusion. ael ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
Trade is more an access tag, you can have a shop=motor_spares for example. Some are open to the public, others are exclusively to sell to other businesses and will refuse access to normal people. The same is true for some shop=diy, others such as B&Q whilst open to all do have a separate trade entrance where no doubt different prices are charged. A cash and carry, again is trade. They sell only to other businesses, or self employed people and you have to produce either business registration or self-employed tax paperwork, before you are allowed through the door. As for tagging, I would propose shop=*, access=trade/public although the default of public would be assumed if no tag. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 12:59:28PM +0200, Matthijs Melissen wrote: > On 18 October 2015 at 12:55, ael wrote: > > But really it was invented as a way to tag clear groups of places that > > had no obvious existing tags > > Do you have a source for that? (Not questioning you, just curious to > read the original discussion.) Well, I started the discussion on this list, but someone else suggested the use of a subtag, and we agreed on that solution. It was a while ago. It will take me a while to find the original reference, but it will be in the archives. ael ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On 18 October 2015 at 12:55, ael wrote: > But really it was invented as a way to tag clear groups of places that > had no obvious existing tags Do you have a source for that? (Not questioning you, just curious to read the original discussion.) -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 07:28:39PM -0500, John Eldredge wrote: > I find shop=trade too generic to be useful, as there are many different > trades besides the building-construction trades. Where does that constraint come from? You can have the subtag trade take pretty well any relevant value. Building_materials just happened to be the original motivation. As for "white-collar" and such, that seems to be some sort of local class distinction. There is absolutely no such intention in the original proposal. Rather "trade" suggests "professional", and as such perhaps to be admired and emulated. But really it was invented as a way to tag clear groups of places that had no obvious existing tags, and using the subtag had the great advantage that applications did not have to know all the possible values of "trade". Applications can just include them in, say, a group of shop POIs in the vicinity. The user can then inspect and decide which are of interest. Having a plethora of slightly different main tags seems an inferior approach. But again, the subtag trade again has the vast advantage that it is completely compatible with as many main tags as needed. Some values of trade might become redundant if a new main tag is invented, but that is ok. What am I missing? ael ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
Javbw > On Oct 18, 2015, at 5:11 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote: > > >> Am 18.10.2015 um 02:28 schrieb John Eldredge : >> >> I find shop=trade too generic to be useful, as there are many different >> trades besides the building-construction trades. > > > +1, > +1 It seems to follow the old "tradesmen vs college" division - but a lot pf white collar geek jobs (like web and graphic design) are often more like modern trade jobs now - a person can slap their name on a business card and rent a small room and start making "things." Craft is a bit better, as it is still pretty narrow scope - but trade vs shop vs office seems a little weird. Maybe it is a distinctiin that is stronger in some regions than others - farm / industrial / commercial / retail / is a great distinction for landuse names - the business types should follow a similar divide. Trying to split commercial up into trade/office and retail into craft/shop leads to some weird distinctions. A lot of craft people have shops in the workshop for their work - and some trades are in offices. Better just to leave it all in retail, just like we don't try to break out ball sports or paddle sports or sliding sports in sport=* (soccer, tennis, skiing). If the distinction offered something distinctive for the data or the mapping, that would be great, but it doesn't seem to offer that, so the distinction is just more busywork and tag confusion. ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
sent from a phone > Am 18.10.2015 um 02:28 schrieb John Eldredge : > > I find shop=trade too generic to be useful, as there are many different > trades besides the building-construction trades. +1, cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
I find shop=trade too generic to be useful, as there are many different trades besides the building-construction trades. -- John F. Eldredge -- [email protected] "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On October 7, 2015 2:40:36 PM Friedrich Volkmann wrote: On 07.10.2015 20:26, Matthijs Melissen wrote: On 7 October 2015 at 15:58, Daniel Koć wrote: builder Not sure what this is used for. I have mapped some craft=builder. Small offices, maybe with some storage for tools and construction materials. shop=* seems wrong. building_materials Possibly duplicate with shop=doityourself, not sure though. shop=trade craft I use this for shops selling coloured paper, glue, knitting supplies etc. sounds like shop=stationery or shop=fabric hobby Similar to shop=craft. Do you know what hobby this is about? Almost everything can be a hobby. antique - no wiki, mentioned on antiques page so maybe deprecate and propose antiques? Yes, shop=antiques is more popular. They obviously mean the same. Deprecating the rare one will do no harm. car_service - maybe car_repair? Agree. Some companies focus on car service, but all of them can do some repair as well, so this is certainly a candidate for a subtag of shop=car_repair. But not service=* as suggested on the shop=car_repair page. There is something going wrong. service=* is already a subtag of highway=service and railway=service. souvenir - gift? No, for example in Amsterdam shops where tourists buy things to take home are very distinct from shops were people go to buy a present for a friend they are visiting. The shop=gift tag definition explicitely covers "tourist gifts (souvenirs)". What present do you buy for a friend? Jewelry? That's shop=jewelry. Confectionery? That's shop=confectionery. Flowers? shop=florist. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
Javbw On Oct 8, 2015, at 4:40 AM, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: >> Similar to shop=craft. > > Do you know what hobby this is about? Almost everything can be a hobby. I belive it is about some form of scale model building or small scale electric things (trains rc cars, planes). Many of the hobby shops I know in the US cater to the Plastic model / train / RC enthusiasts. Craft stores are usually that place between art and hobby - scrapbooking, silk flowers, beads, papercraft, with a smattering of hobbyist stuff (a model car or two for kids and a little framing. Fabric shops still focus on cloth and other sewing or clothcraft, but also beading and scrapbooking - but their focus is "fabric" I wouldn't go to the hobby shop for stickers, the fabric shop for silk flowers, or the craft store for model kits, though they can be found at all three. They each have their focus. In Japan, there are several "plastic model kit" stores just in my tiny town here in Japan (they are insanely popular) - so even a value of plastic model kit store is appropriate. They are Jammed floor to ceiling with model kits, some with archways and tunnels made of model kit boxes to be sold (more of a cave than a shop, fire code be damned). Shop=hobby Hobby=plastic_model Hobby:ja=プラモデル This is where a subkey of craft=* or hobby=* would be useful (i think craft=* exists?) for detailing both large shops that have everything Shop=doityourself and a specific shop that focuses on one aspect. Shop=doityourself Doitfourself=fixtures Shop=Building_materials Building_materials=tile Shop=electroc Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
> On Oct 8, 2015, at 6:48 PM, Warin <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Some 'shops' also do repair, servicing of the things they sell. Bicycles has > already been equipped with tags for that, > and I'd think the sub tags should allow for it too... > > For example > > sells:hobby:train=yes > > or even > > sells:hobby:train:hornby=yes .. where the make is known. > > then > > services:hobby:train=yes > > repairs:hobby:train=yes > > & > On Oct 8, 2015, at 6:51 PM, Colin Smale wrote: > > In an ideal world, tagging should also be based on what it IS (which is > objective), not what it is CALLED (which is locale/culture dependent). In the > case of shops, that would mean enumerating the sorts of products/services on > sale, so shop=hat is better than shop=haberdasher. The generic type is absolutely necessary, because the there is a lot implied in a name and category - and people expect them to be presented and shown in generic categories. (DIY, Hobby, clothing, etc). but they also expect if you search “model trains” they don't give you a pin for a scrapbooking craft store that has 4 model car kits on a back shelf. The only reasonable answer (I have seen) is to have the shop=type and type=subtype + type:detail:object=yes model to to let people add the major focus and outliers *=no) and use the service and repair tag the same way. People don’t need to try to map what every chain store sells, because people usually are familiar with what is in a chain (or could be added with a automated edit to all of the chain locations) - but the small regional and “mom & pop” stores definitely could use this level of detail - and would drastically help with searches (if they are doing keyword searches). even separating dry cleaning and coin laundry is a hassle in both Google maps and Apple maps in (rural) Japan - I have submitted 10 different map repair requests just to get laundromats to show up correctly when I search for one in my town - which means their categories are crap and need to be properly segmented (and the rules followed). This generics also lets regional variations work in- generic:[lang]=detail → hobby=plastic model hobby:ja=プラモデル I talked to my ham radio friend tonight, and the shop he visits deals only with licensed hobbyist radios and their accessories / supplies / antennas (HAM, microwave, and similar) - so having a shop=electronics + electronics=radiotronics (what was that special word?) and then put whenever you think belongs in the sells, services, etc. This seems like a no-brainer: but a pretty big skeleton of types and subtypes has to be made up or everything will a giant pile of dictionary vomit. Javbw___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
> On Oct 8, 2015, at 6:54 PM, Tom Pfeifer wrote: > >> > printing - copyshop? >> if they don't offer "copying"? Copyshop would seem wrong in these cases. > > There is a clear difference in a shop that provides copiers > and maybe some laser printers, compared to the trade that > does offset printing and large-scale digital printing, cutting > and book-binding. A printing shop would make large format poster prints, or other large scale “promotional” materials - usually more professional or B2B purposes than a copyshop. When you get brochures professionally printed on a press and perforated and trimmed - it is usually in a warehouse with a 1M wide guillotine trimmer - but you walk in with a CD and get your 20 boxes brochures printed. It also might cover art reproduction printing shops. My friend runs a business that only prints large format paper and canvas prints for artists to sell. It is totally not a copy shop. Javbw___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
> printing - copyshop? if they don't offer "copying"? Copyshop would seem wrong in these cases. There is a clear difference in a shop that provides copiers and maybe some laser printers, compared to the trade that does offset printing and large-scale digital printing, cutting and book-binding. sewing - maybe tailor? No, in a sewing shop you can buy threads and needles, in a tailor you can get your clothes fixed. I see even three categories, selling sewing supplies (needles, thread, buttons), doing small sewing jobs (replacing a zipper, shortening trouser legs), and the tailor who makes a new suit on custom measure. tom ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
Great idea John. But we are going to have to deal with "mixed" shops, which fall into multiple categories at once. Our reluctance to find a proper solution for multi-valued attributes has already caused zillions of brain-hours to be expended on heated, protracted discussions with no sign of consensus. My opinion is that we should clearly state that we accept semicolon syntax for the value of "shop", where multiple values is the best representation of the shop. Otherwise we will be repeating this discussion time and time again because there is a shop that doesn't fall cleanly into one category, so either yet another value is created to cover the range of goods and services at this particular shop with significant overlap with existing values, or the shop is only tagged as one out of N categories and information is being lost. The fact that "renderers" may need a few extra lines of code to handle this, is irrelevant noise. In an ideal world, tagging should also be based on what it IS (which is objective), not what it is CALLED (which is locale/culture dependent). In the case of shops, that would mean enumerating the sorts of products/services on sale, so shop=hat is better than shop=haberdasher. //colin On 2015-10-08 11:32, John Willis wrote: > Li really like the idea of cleaning up the shop values, especially removing > really generic ones. > > But specific ones have their place > > For example, electronics is a good shop value, but what about a ham radio > store? > > Generic hobby shops exist, what about model train shops? > > We need to create a skeleton that has sub values, or we need to allow > (usually on a region by region basis) more detailed tags than is what > expected. > > For example, in Japan, a "bath fixtures" shop is a common store. They sell > toilets, showers, tubs, etc. there are plenty of big home stores that that > slo sell those, but the local "bath fixture shop" is a common sight. > > Same with "bamboo home goods" and "tea goods" for loose tea, powered macha, > special teapots, and the accessories for the pots. You can not buy a drink > there, just goods to make tea. W > > A skeleton of premade sub keys that can accept specific values shop=hobby, > hobby=trains or an acceptance of more specific values ( similar to cuisine - > octopus ball stands are fast food here) need to dealt with in a proper way. > > Javbw > >> On Oct 7, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Daniel Koć wrote: >> >> I was trying to review the shop values we show in osm-carto (top 100 >> according to TagInfo - you can list it by running this Ruby script: >> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/scripts/shop_values.rb >> ) and here are my quick findings: >> >> No wiki page or definition (some of them can be also candidates for >> deprecating and replacing with something else): >> >> builder >> building_materials >> craft >> discount >> energy >> flooring >> gallery >> games >> health_food >> hobby >> market >> phone >> real_estate >> rental >> salon >> shoe_repair >> tiles >> >> Candidates for deprecating: >> >> antique - no wiki, mentioned on antiques page so maybe deprecate and propose >> antiques? >> appliance - wiki redirects to electronics, so maybe deprecate and propose >> electronics instead? >> car_service - maybe car_repair? >> communication - wiki redirects to mobile_phone, so maybe deprecate and >> propose mobile_phone? >> general - deprecate and propose to look for other shop values (like "yes")? >> health - medical_supply? >> household - houseware? >> interior_decoration - houseware? >> office_supplies - stationery? >> printing - copyshop? >> radiotechnics - electronics? >> sewing - maybe tailor? >> shopping_centre - mall? >> solarium - leisure=tanning_salon? >> souvenir - gift? >> tanning - leisure=tanning_salon? >> >> Also organic is deprecated, but I was told that it was made by one person, >> so we should also decide if we support this change or we want to revert it. >> >> What are your propositions? >> >> -- >> "The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags >> down" [A. Cohen] >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On 8/10/2015 8:32 PM, John Willis wrote: Li really like the idea of cleaning up the shop values, especially removing really generic ones. But specific ones have their place For example, electronics is a good shop value, but what about a ham radio store? Generic hobby shops exist, what about model train shops? We need to create a skeleton that has sub values, or we need to allow (usually on a region by region basis) more detailed tags than is what expected. Yep .. needs to be 'generic' - usefull for all shop types. For example, in Japan, a "bath fixtures" shop is a common store. They sell toilets, showers, tubs, etc. there are plenty of big home stores that that slo sell those, but the local "bath fixture shop" is a common sight. There was a few blocks of a street in Athens, Greece that had a line of shops all selling this stuff (bathroom fittings, baths, tap ware, sinks etc). Would make shopping so easy! Side by side shops .. different brands and stock in each. Same with "bamboo home goods" and "tea goods" for loose tea, powered macha, special teapots, and the accessories for the pots. You can not buy a drink there, just goods to make tea. W A skeleton of premade sub keys that can accept specific values shop=hobby, hobby=trains or an acceptance of more specific values ( similar to cuisine - octopus ball stands are fast food here) need to dealt with in a proper way. Some 'shops' also do repair, servicing of the things they sell. Bicycles has already been equipped with tags for that, and I'd think the sub tags should allow for it too... For example sells:hobby:train=yes or even sells:hobby:train:hornby=yes .. where the make is known. then services:hobby:train=yes repairs:hobby:train=yes ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
There are a couple shops like "la mesa Lumber" and places dedicated to stone&tile that are public shops. Often times they are the more "pro" shops a builder or DIY person goes to source a large quantity of wood, tile, or stone for a building project - but there is not a tool to be found (all that is at the DIY store). Javbw > On Oct 8, 2015, at 12:22 PM, Marc Gemis wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Matthijs Melissen >> wrote: >> > building_materials >> >> Possibly duplicate with shop=doityourself, not sure though. > > I see this as a place where you can buy bricks, sand, wood, etc. but no > tools. A do-it-yourself in Belgium typically also sells tools. Something like > http://www.bouwmaterialen-vanherck.be/ (Dutch) > >> >> >> > rental >> >> I would use office=estate_agent for this as well. > > I see this for companies such as Eurorent, where you can rent machinery. From > simple hammers to specialised cranes. (e.g. https://www.eurorent.be/nl/ ) > > regards > > m > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
Li really like the idea of cleaning up the shop values, especially removing really generic ones. But specific ones have their place For example, electronics is a good shop value, but what about a ham radio store? Generic hobby shops exist, what about model train shops? We need to create a skeleton that has sub values, or we need to allow (usually on a region by region basis) more detailed tags than is what expected. For example, in Japan, a "bath fixtures" shop is a common store. They sell toilets, showers, tubs, etc. there are plenty of big home stores that that slo sell those, but the local "bath fixture shop" is a common sight. Same with "bamboo home goods" and "tea goods" for loose tea, powered macha, special teapots, and the accessories for the pots. You can not buy a drink there, just goods to make tea. W A skeleton of premade sub keys that can accept specific values shop=hobby, hobby=trains or an acceptance of more specific values ( similar to cuisine - octopus ball stands are fast food here) need to dealt with in a proper way. Javbw > On Oct 7, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Daniel Koć wrote: > > I was trying to review the shop values we show in osm-carto (top 100 > according to TagInfo - you can list it by running this Ruby script: > https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/scripts/shop_values.rb > ) and here are my quick findings: > > No wiki page or definition (some of them can be also candidates for > deprecating and replacing with something else): > > builder > building_materials > craft > discount > energy > flooring > gallery > games > health_food > hobby > market > phone > real_estate > rental > salon > shoe_repair > tiles > > Candidates for deprecating: > > antique - no wiki, mentioned on antiques page so maybe deprecate and propose > antiques? > appliance - wiki redirects to electronics, so maybe deprecate and propose > electronics instead? > car_service - maybe car_repair? > communication - wiki redirects to mobile_phone, so maybe deprecate and > propose mobile_phone? > general - deprecate and propose to look for other shop values (like "yes")? > health - medical_supply? > household - houseware? > interior_decoration - houseware? > office_supplies - stationery? > printing - copyshop? > radiotechnics - electronics? > sewing - maybe tailor? > shopping_centre - mall? > solarium - leisure=tanning_salon? > souvenir - gift? > tanning - leisure=tanning_salon? > > Also organic is deprecated, but I was told that it was made by one person, so > we should also decide if we support this change or we want to revert it. > > What are your propositions? > > -- > "The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags > down" [A. Cohen] > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
2015-10-07 20:26 GMT+02:00 Matthijs Melissen : > On 7 October 2015 at 15:58, Daniel Koć wrote: > > builder > > Not sure what this is used for. > neither am I. Maybe it's for developers that have public-facing offices to present their future projects and search for clients. Similar to an estate agent, but selling estates that often don't exist yet. > > > building_materials > > Possibly duplicate with shop=doityourself, not sure though. > "doityourself" could mean different things: here are shops where you can go and do your own woodwork in their workshop, using their tools, possibly buying wood from them, and paying for using the place. It could also mean a shop that sells tools and materials for doing some work (paper / wood / etc.). A shop that sells "building materials" is likely selling different stuff like mortar, bricks, cement, scaffolding, insulation material, drywall material, tiles, maybe metal pieces for junctions like screws, nails, consoles, maybe machinery, maybe rent machinery > > > craft > > I use this for shops selling coloured paper, glue, knitting supplies etc. > I'd call them stationery (well, if they sell knitting supplies and sewing stuff, etc. maybe yet another tag might make sense, "craft" is too generic to make sense IMHO). > > > discount > > I use shop=variety_store instead, but some mappers split the two > categories. > I agree that "discount" is not clear in meaning (could be a discout supermarket, a discount clothes shop, a kind of variety store or yet another kind of shop) > > > energy > > Likely used for public-facing offices of energy suppliers, especially > in countries where there is a free energy market so people might > actually be 'shopping' for an energy provider. > +1, that's also what I think. Like a phone shop which sells you a phone contract. > games > > Makes sense. > yes, might even be further refined if specialized (e.g. electronic games like pc games and console games, table top games, role playing games, ...) > > market > > Probably used for market halls. Might be a lesser used alternative of > amenity=marketplace. > IMHO it would be a misnamer then, because market halls are not shops, they are buildings where individual booths are set up (which might be seen as shops themselves) > > rental > > I would use office=estate_agent for this as well. > > Seems unclear what kind of stuff is for rent there. I'd discourage use of this tag and propose to use an attribute instead (e.g. rental=yes/no/only) together with a tag that says what's the product. > > salon > > Lesser used alternative of shop=hairdresser. > also unclear, should be discouraged > > > shoe_repair > > Lesser used alternative of shop=shoemaker. > literally there's a difference, practically likely not. > > appliance - wiki redirects to electronics, so maybe deprecate and propose > > electronics instead? > > Agree. > there's a difference between electronics and appliances. I wouldn't see washing machines, dish washers, fridges, electric heating, but also smaller stuff like flattening irons, hairdryers, blenders, toasters, microwaves, electrical toothbrushs, you name it, as electronics even if nowadays they might include a fair amount of electronic components. > > > communication - wiki redirects to mobile_phone, so maybe deprecate and > > propose mobile_phone? > > No, shop=communication is used for places where you can go to and call > abroad cheaply. Mainly common in places with many immigrants. > maybe some of them are also tagged as shop=phone. > > > general - deprecate and propose to look for other shop values (like > "yes")? > > Not sure. > a general store is a specific kind of shop, maybe it would be more clear if the tag was "general_store" rather than "general"? > interior_decoration - houseware? > > No, I use houseware for shops were you can buy practical stuff such as > pots, bins, and brooms, while I use interior_decoration for shops > +1, decoration is quite different than practically useful objects like pans and pots. > > > office_supplies - stationery? > > Likely yes (although people state that shops like Staples also sell > printers etc., and that that goes beyond what a stationery shop would > sell). > I'd not conflate them, the subtle difference could be useful when you search for a shop to buy specific things. > > printing - copyshop? > > Agree. > if they don't offer "copying"? Copyshop would seem wrong in these cases. > > > radiotechnics - electronics? > no, there might be small overlap in what they sell but these will be completely different kinds of shops from my experience. > > sewing - maybe tailor? > > No, in a sewing shop you can buy threads and needles, in a tailor you > can get your clothes fixed. > +1 cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On 10/07/2015 09:58 AM, Daniel Koć wrote: Candidates for deprecating: general - deprecate and propose to look for other shop values (like "yes")? No. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_store --Andrew ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote: > > building_materials > > Possibly duplicate with shop=doityourself, not sure though. > I see this as a place where you can buy bricks, sand, wood, etc. but no tools. A do-it-yourself in Belgium typically also sells tools. Something like http://www.bouwmaterialen-vanherck.be/ (Dutch) > > > > rental > > I would use office=estate_agent for this as well. > I see this for companies such as Eurorent, where you can rent machinery. >From simple hammers to specialised cranes. (e.g. https://www.eurorent.be/nl/ ) regards m ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On 8/10/2015 12:58 AM, Daniel Koć wrote: I was trying to review the shop values we show in osm-carto (top 100 according to TagInfo - you can list it by running this Ruby script: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/scripts/shop_values.rb ) and here are my quick findings: No wiki page or definition (some of them can be also candidates for deprecating and replacing with something else): builder That would be an office! Remove and redirect? building_materials Caters for both builders and DIY ? craft craft is a separate thing ... discount Of what ? needs a sub tag if it is to be usefull. energy Office! not a shop .. redirect? flooring carpets, rugs, timber, tile, vinyl etc.. gallery art. games electronic, board, health_food umm nutritional supplements? hobby ?scale models, market No... usually consists of many individual 'shops'. phone real_estate rental salon shoe_repair tiles Candidates for deprecating: antique - no wiki, mentioned on antiques page so maybe deprecate and propose antiques? appliance - wiki redirects to electronics, so maybe deprecate and propose electronics instead? -1 Appliance might be washing machines, stoves, fridges, air conditioners ... "white goods" car_service - maybe car_repair? -1. A service is the regular change of oil, filters, tune. Repair is fixing faults. Some places do both, others specialise. communication - wiki redirects to mobile_phone, so maybe deprecate and propose mobile_phone? -1 CB radios, Satellite phones, land line phone are some other forms of communication. So sub tag with the type of communication? general - deprecate and propose to look for other shop values (like "yes")? +1 Sounds good to me - consistent with other tags. health - medical_supply? household - houseware? interior_decoration - houseware? office_supplies - stationery? Think this has been discussed, and office_supplies were more than just stationery. printing - copyshop? radiotechnics - electronics? sewing - maybe tailor? -1 A tailor would not supply needles for a sewing machine where as a sewing shop would. shopping_centre - mall? A mall or a shopping centre is not a single shop! Redirect to building=mall? solarium - leisure=tanning_salon? +1 souvenir - gift? tanning - leisure=tanning_salon? +1 Also organic is deprecated, but I was told that it was made by one person, so we should also decide if we support this change or we want to revert it. What are your propositions? --- At the moment there are a unique set of sub tags under bicycle.. unfortunately these are not generic and cannot be applied to other shops .. I'd like to see a set of generic sub tags suggested ... as an example sells:motorcycle_helmets=yes sells:motorcycle_gloves=yes sells:motorcycle_jackets=yes sells:motorcycle_parts=Harley_Davidson; Yamaha repairs=Harley_Davidson; Yamaha services=Harley_Davidson; Yamaha The brand tag would be used to identify the primary produce (in this case motorcycles) that are sold new, the second hand tag for second hand goods ... Some shops do repairs/services too .. just as the bicycle shops now have tags for. ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On 07.10.2015 20:26, Matthijs Melissen wrote: > On 7 October 2015 at 15:58, Daniel Koć wrote: >> builder > > Not sure what this is used for. I have mapped some craft=builder. Small offices, maybe with some storage for tools and construction materials. shop=* seems wrong. >> building_materials > > Possibly duplicate with shop=doityourself, not sure though. shop=trade >> craft > > I use this for shops selling coloured paper, glue, knitting supplies etc. sounds like shop=stationery or shop=fabric >> hobby > > Similar to shop=craft. Do you know what hobby this is about? Almost everything can be a hobby. >> antique - no wiki, mentioned on antiques page so maybe deprecate and propose >> antiques? > > Yes, shop=antiques is more popular. They obviously mean the same. Deprecating the rare one will do no harm. >> car_service - maybe car_repair? > > Agree. Some companies focus on car service, but all of them can do some repair as well, so this is certainly a candidate for a subtag of shop=car_repair. But not service=* as suggested on the shop=car_repair page. There is something going wrong. service=* is already a subtag of highway=service and railway=service. >> souvenir - gift? > > No, for example in Amsterdam shops where tourists buy things to take > home are very distinct from shops were people go to buy a present for > a friend they are visiting. The shop=gift tag definition explicitely covers "tourist gifts (souvenirs)". What present do you buy for a friend? Jewelry? That's shop=jewelry. Confectionery? That's shop=confectionery. Flowers? shop=florist. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On Wed, Oct 07, 2015 at 03:58:23PM +0200, Daniel Koć wrote: > building_materials Very likely shop=trade and trade=building_supplies although perhaps it does not cater for professionals. ael ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On 7 October 2015 at 15:58, Daniel Koć wrote: > builder Not sure what this is used for. > building_materials Possibly duplicate with shop=doityourself, not sure though. > craft I use this for shops selling coloured paper, glue, knitting supplies etc. > discount I use shop=variety_store instead, but some mappers split the two categories. > energy Likely used for public-facing offices of energy suppliers, especially in countries where there is a free energy market so people might actually be 'shopping' for an energy provider. > flooring Makes sense. > gallery Lesser used alternative of shop=art. > games Makes sense. > health_food Lesser used alternative of shop=organic. > hobby Similar to shop=craft. > market Probably used for market halls. Might be a lesser used alternative of amenity=marketplace. > phone Likely most of these should be shop=mobile_phone. > real_estate Lesser used alternative of office=estate_agent. > rental I would use office=estate_agent for this as well. > salon Lesser used alternative of shop=hairdresser. > shoe_repair Lesser used alternative of shop=shoemaker. > tiles Makes sense, I guess. > Candidates for deprecating: > > antique - no wiki, mentioned on antiques page so maybe deprecate and propose > antiques? Yes, shop=antiques is more popular. > appliance - wiki redirects to electronics, so maybe deprecate and propose > electronics instead? Agree. > car_service - maybe car_repair? Agree. > communication - wiki redirects to mobile_phone, so maybe deprecate and > propose mobile_phone? No, shop=communication is used for places where you can go to and call abroad cheaply. Mainly common in places with many immigrants. > general - deprecate and propose to look for other shop values (like "yes")? Not sure. > health - medical_supply? Likely yes, or shop=organic (or shop=supermarket organic=yes) > household - houseware? Yes. > interior_decoration - houseware? No, I use houseware for shops were you can buy practical stuff such as pots, bins, and brooms, while I use interior_decoration for shops > office_supplies - stationery? Likely yes (although people state that shops like Staples also sell printers etc., and that that goes beyond what a stationery shop would sell). > printing - copyshop? Agree. > radiotechnics - electronics? > sewing - maybe tailor? No, in a sewing shop you can buy threads and needles, in a tailor you can get your clothes fixed. > shopping_centre - mall? Agree. > solarium - leisure=tanning_salon? Agree - apparently solarium is not even an English word. > souvenir - gift? No, for example in Amsterdam shops where tourists buy things to take home are very distinct from shops were people go to buy a present for a friend they are visiting. > tanning - leisure=tanning_salon? Agree. > Also organic is deprecated, but I was told that it was made by one person, > so we should also decide if we support this change or we want to revert it. Agree, I feel neutral about this. > What are your propositions? Thanks for working on this! Very useful to get more clarity in this direction. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Daniel Koć wrote: > Candidates for deprecating: > radiotechnics - electronics? I proposed[1] electronic_parts (though honestly didn't remember to make a voting after the RFC) - in a hindsight it could probably be named electronic_supply as they sell things like multimeters, ordinary tools, soldering irons etc. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Delectronic_parts Michał ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On Wed, 2015-10-07 at 15:58 +0200, Daniel Koć wrote: > I was trying to review the shop values we show in osm-carto (top 100 > according to TagInfo - you can list it by running this Ruby script: > https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/scrip > ts/shop_values.rb > ) and here are my quick findings: > > No wiki page or definition (some of them can be also candidates for > deprecating and replacing with something else): > > builder A builder does not normally have a shop. > building_materials > craft Selling craft supplies, similar to hobby. > discount Needs to define what is being sold at a discounting. > energy Not something you normally buy from a shop. > flooring Self explainatory, I don't see a problem. Somewhere like floors to go. > gallery A shop selling and displaying paintings/ > games A variation on toy, or maybe computer games. > health_food Self explainatory, I don't see a problem. > hobby Similar to craft > market A market is an outdoor place where things are sold, not a shop. > phone > real_estate Real Estate is American, it should be tagged as an estate agent. > rental Needs to define what is being rented. > salon The type needs to be defined, beauty? A hair salon should be shop=hairderesser. > shoe_repair Self explainatory, most high streets have one. > tiles Self explainatory > > Candidates for deprecating: > > antique - no wiki, mentioned on antiques page so maybe deprecate and > propose antiques? Normally use the plural > appliance - wiki redirects to electronics, so maybe deprecate and > propose electronics instead? > car_service - maybe car_repair? > communication - wiki redirects to mobile_phone, so maybe deprecate > and > propose mobile_phone? > general - deprecate and propose to look for other shop values (like > "yes")? > health - medical_supply? > household - houseware? > interior_decoration - houseware? > office_supplies - stationery? > printing - copyshop? > radiotechnics - electronics? > sewing - maybe tailor? A sewing shop will do repairs, alterations and maybe make simple clothes, a tailor would be expected to be able to make a made to measure suit. > shopping_centre - mall? Shopping Centre is British English, Mall is American. If anything mall should be changed to shopping centre, although neither are a shop, they are a place containing many shops. > solarium - leisure=tanning_salon? > souvenir - gift? > tanning - leisure=tanning_salon? > > Also organic is deprecated, but I was told that it was made by one > person, so we should also decide if we support this change or we want > to > revert it. Organic is an important thing to tag, but organic what needs to be defined. So shop=butchers, organic=yes etc. > Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
sent from a phone > Am 07.10.2015 um 19:08 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer : > > some of them are defined on other wikipages. For craft I'm sure there is a > page please forget this, sorry for the noise Regarding the idea to make them more general: when it's a specific shop specialized in selling few particular products it is IMHO better to be specific. If the values are 1:1 synonymous with more established values it makes sense to unify, but I d be very careful doing it, possibly contacting the original mapper. cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
sent from a phone > Am 07.10.2015 um 15:58 schrieb Daniel Koć : > > No wiki page or definition (some of them can be also candidates for > deprecating and replacing with something else): some of them are defined on other wikipages. For craft I'm sure there is a page cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Daniel Koć wrote: > interior_decoration - houseware? > JOSM has an icon for interior_decoration. and as Lauri wrote I use it for places selling carpets, curtains etc. > shopping_centre - mall? > This was discussed in the past year. As far as I remember, a shopping centre is smaller, typical 1 floor, where a mall has several. Can't find the reference at the moment regards m ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Shop values review
Daniel Koć wrote: > discount > flooring > games > health_food > hobby > tiles At least these are probably or possibly locally referred to as they are tagged, Maybe someone can come up with fitting but more general values, if there are any. If a shop sells mostly only games, it's a shop selling games. For the second list, at least some replacements seem incorrect: > Candidates for deprecating: > health - medical_supply? Probably different, first one could be a unlicenced selling products with (un)claimed health, performance, sleep or other benefits and whatever, nothing medical about them. > interior_decoration - houseware? Houseware seems to refer to "usable" equipment, but I'd assume interior decoration is anything from curtains and pictures to flower vases and pillows, possibly with some cabinets and storage boxes in the mix. > sewing - maybe tailor? I've seen a sewing supply shop, yarn, tools and some textiles and stuffing material, or the like. They won't sew anything for you, like a tailor does. > shopping_centre - mall? The wikipedia page lists regional differences and I'm no native, so the words themselves may not refer exactly to these attributes, but the way I read it a year or several ago there is a difference, even if many might use the words interchangeably. They're almost similar, but some professionals and others make the distinction that in a mall the distinct shops are within a single (enclosed) area, but in a shopping centre the shops have their main entrances from the outside. In the other, you (almost always) first enter the mall, then the shops; in the other, you (can) enter the shops directly; or in a mall you go around with what you bought and then return to your car, but in a shopping center you're more likely to take your bags to the car between visits to different shops. It might be that discussing what the two words really mean would never end, but the difference in concepts exists. > souvenir - gift? Although somewhat similar, I wouldn't got to souvenir shop to buy gifts for my relatives, they only sell stuff that gives tourists a cliché memory of the attraction, city or country. As a tourist, I wouldn't go to a mainstream gift shop business (as WP calls them) to buy a t-shirt with the name of the city I was visiting; they probably wouldn't have such. -- alv ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Shop values review
I was trying to review the shop values we show in osm-carto (top 100 according to TagInfo - you can list it by running this Ruby script: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/scripts/shop_values.rb ) and here are my quick findings: No wiki page or definition (some of them can be also candidates for deprecating and replacing with something else): builder building_materials craft discount energy flooring gallery games health_food hobby market phone real_estate rental salon shoe_repair tiles Candidates for deprecating: antique - no wiki, mentioned on antiques page so maybe deprecate and propose antiques? appliance - wiki redirects to electronics, so maybe deprecate and propose electronics instead? car_service - maybe car_repair? communication - wiki redirects to mobile_phone, so maybe deprecate and propose mobile_phone? general - deprecate and propose to look for other shop values (like "yes")? health - medical_supply? household - houseware? interior_decoration - houseware? office_supplies - stationery? printing - copyshop? radiotechnics - electronics? sewing - maybe tailor? shopping_centre - mall? solarium - leisure=tanning_salon? souvenir - gift? tanning - leisure=tanning_salon? Also organic is deprecated, but I was told that it was made by one person, so we should also decide if we support this change or we want to revert it. What are your propositions? -- "The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags down" [A. Cohen] ___ Tagging mailing list [email protected] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
