Re: [Tagging] Are rowboats covered by "boat=*" or "canoe=*"?

[Peter Elderson]

Networks for canoes use network=lpn|rpn|npn|rpn where p stands for
paddling.
Hm, I fear that only complicates the matter...

Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op di 23 jun. 2020 om 14:05 schreef Niels Elgaard Larsen :

> Joseph Eisenberg:
> > The wiki page Key:boat 
> says that tag
> > is to specify
> >
> > "Legal access restriction for boats. In the sense of OSM these are small
> boats and
> > pleasure crafts, including yachts."
> >
> > The picture shows a "no rowboats" sign: File:A.16_Fahrverbot.svg
> > 
> >
> > But there is also a key canoe=* - the page Key:canoe
> >  says:
> >
> > "Legal access restriction for boats without a motor or a sail like
> canoes, kajaks or
> > rowboats."
> >
> > I can see how canoes and kayaks are basically the same, since both are
> narrow boats
> > that usually carry 1 or 2 people and are propelled by paddles.
>
> And Stand Up Paddle?
>
> > But should rowboat access restrictions be under this key
> canoe=yes/no/designated, or
> > are they under boat=yes/no/designated - or something else?
>
> rowboats are not canoes.
> We are missing a more generic term.
> In the international rules it is "vessels under oars"
>
> I checked the tags in Denmark.
>
> Gudenåen and Skjern Å has canoe=permissive. But rowboats are also allowed
> (I have
> rowed on Gudenåen several times).
>
> Tåning Å has boat=yes, canoe=yes, motorboat=no
>
> There was also a floating pier tagged with canoe=yes.
> And that is probably not for rowboats. Clubs typically have different
> piers for
> rowboats and kayaks.
>
> I would say that we could have both "canoe" and "rowboat" and that both
> canoe and
> rowboat are also boat, just as e.g., hgv is also motor_vehicle.
>
> rowboats should not be canoes.
> In particular canoe=portage and canoe=put_in is wrong for rowing boats.
>
> Rowing clubs:
> https://agol.dk/elgaard/roklubber.html
>
> --
> Niels Elgaard Larsen
>
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Re: [Tagging] Are rowboats covered by "boat=*" or "canoe=*"?

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Joseph Eisenberg:
> The wiki page Key:boat  says 
> that tag
> is to specify 
> 
> "Legal access restriction for boats. In the sense of OSM these are small 
> boats and
> pleasure crafts, including yachts."
> 
> The picture shows a "no rowboats" sign: File:A.16_Fahrverbot.svg
> 
> 
> But there is also a key canoe=* - the page Key:canoe
>  says:
> 
> "Legal access restriction for boats without a motor or a sail like canoes, 
> kajaks or
> rowboats."
> 
> I can see how canoes and kayaks are basically the same, since both are narrow 
> boats
> that usually carry 1 or 2 people and are propelled by paddles.

And Stand Up Paddle?

> But should rowboat access restrictions be under this key 
> canoe=yes/no/designated, or
> are they under boat=yes/no/designated - or something else?

rowboats are not canoes.
We are missing a more generic term.
In the international rules it is "vessels under oars"

I checked the tags in Denmark.

Gudenåen and Skjern Å has canoe=permissive. But rowboats are also allowed (I 
have
rowed on Gudenåen several times).

Tåning Å has boat=yes, canoe=yes, motorboat=no

There was also a floating pier tagged with canoe=yes.
And that is probably not for rowboats. Clubs typically have different piers for
rowboats and kayaks.

I would say that we could have both "canoe" and "rowboat" and that both canoe 
and
rowboat are also boat, just as e.g., hgv is also motor_vehicle.

rowboats should not be canoes.
In particular canoe=portage and canoe=put_in is wrong for rowing boats.

Rowing clubs:
https://agol.dk/elgaard/roklubber.html

-- 
Niels Elgaard Larsen

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Re: [Tagging] Are rowboats covered by "boat=*" or "canoe=*"?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 23. Jun 2020, at 09:59, Georg Feddern  wrote:
> 
> "A boat that is _not_ driven by motor or sail."
> So it also forbids canoe/kayak.
> 
> So the access can only be determined correctly if a rowboat is considered 
> with the access canoe=*.


canoe=no
rowboat=no
boat=yes


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Are rowboats covered by "boat=*" or "canoe=*"?

[Georg Feddern]

Am 23.06.2020 um 06:29 schrieb Joseph Eisenberg:
The wiki page Key:boat  
says that tag is to specify


"Legal access restriction for boats. In the sense of OSM these are 
small boats and pleasure crafts, including yachts."


The picture shows a "no rowboats" sign: File:A.16_Fahrverbot.svg 



But there is also a key canoe=* - the page Key:canoe 
 says:


"Legal access restriction for boats without a motor or a sail like 
canoes, kajaks or rowboats."


I can see how canoes and kayaks are basically the same, since both are 
narrow boats that usually carry 1 or 2 people and are propelled by 
paddles.


But should rowboat access restrictions be under this key 
canoe=yes/no/designated, or are they under boat=yes/no/designated - or 
something else?




I would consider a rowboat a 'boat' - but the problem is that the "No 
rowboat" sign does not mean the vehicle class but the 'drive' of the 
vehicle:

"A boat that is _not_ driven by motor or sail."
So it also forbids canoe/kayak.

So the access can only be determined correctly if a rowboat is 
considered with the access canoe=*.


E.g. the german regulations differ

a) by drive
- motor
- sail
- oars/paddle

b) by class
- sport (motor or sail boat/yacht - but not: canoe, kayak, rowboat, 
surf..., jetski)

- waterski
- wind-/kitesurfing
- waterscooter/jetski

So the access restriction boat=* could only be used for 'sport' boats 
with motor or sail.


Georg
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Re: [Tagging] Are rowboats covered by "boat=*" or "canoe=*"?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 23. Jun 2020, at 06:38, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> I would say that rowboats should be a boat, while canoes & kayaks (& surfskis 
> should also be mentioned under that category) would be canoe



I would also see it like this. Boats with a sail may be very small while 
rowboats may be quite big and not similar to a canoe in any way. Maybe the 
rowboat term isn’t suitable for describing a legal restriction, because it is 
so imprecise? Aren’t restrictions typically based on size and draught?


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Are rowboats covered by "boat=*" or "canoe=*"?

[Yves]

I think the local access restrictions are probably more accurate that we are, 
do you have an example?
Yves 

Le 23 juin 2020 06:37:18 GMT+02:00, Graeme Fitzpatrick  
a écrit :
>On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 at 14:31, Joseph Eisenberg
>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> But should rowboat access restrictions be under this key
>> canoe=yes/no/designated, or are they under boat=yes/no/designated -
>or
>> something else?
>>
>
>As a boatie, I would say that rowboats should be a boat, while canoes &
>kayaks (& surfskis should also be mentioned under that category) would
>be
>canoe
>
>Thanks
>
>Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Are rowboats covered by "boat=*" or "canoe=*"?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 at 14:31, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

>
> But should rowboat access restrictions be under this key
> canoe=yes/no/designated, or are they under boat=yes/no/designated - or
> something else?
>

As a boatie, I would say that rowboats should be a boat, while canoes &
kayaks (& surfskis should also be mentioned under that category) would be
canoe

Thanks

Graeme
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