Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reusable packaging

2019-09-14 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am Fr., 13. Sept. 2019 um 14:09 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen :

>
> In British English (which OSM generally uses) "bulk" means "being large
> in size, mass or
> volume (of goods, etc.)."  See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bulk
>


it also means "Unpackaged goods when transported in large volumes, e.g.
coal, ore or grain."
same link for reference. (e.g. bulk cargo).



I agree that we need a tag to indicate what you think of as bulk
purchasing, that is where

> you bring your own container.  I'm not sure if there's a
> generally-accepted term for this
> in British English yet.  I've seen "zero waste" (misleading, because it's
> not zero) and
> "unpackaged" (also misleading as it is in a package, just not a package
> that you can
> take away) as well as "bring your own container."  There are also "plastic
> free"
> shops, but that doesn't necessarily mean the same thing, although there is
> quite
> a lot of overlap.
>



IMHO "unpackaged" isn't misleading if you see it as buying a product
without a packaging. It doesn't mean the product has never been packaged,
but you won't get a packaging when buying it.
I would restricting the definition of "bulk_purchase" for places where you
have to buy huge quantities and introduce a new qualifier, like
"sells_unpackaged" or "unpackaged_purchase" for the other.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reusable packaging

2019-09-14 Thread Paul Allen
On Sat, 14 Sep 2019 at 16:49, Ruben  wrote:

>
> There has been discussion about this on the forum:
> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=66456
>
> I had drafted a (in retrospect not perfect) proposal as well:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Low_waste_and_zero_waste
>

I had a quick look at both of those.  Both seem to largely ignore the
elephant in the
room.  In many stores, this will apply to only SOME of the products.  The
percentage
of products covered is almost certain to increase over time, but the nature
of some
products makes it unlikely they can ever be sold loose.  Is a supermarket
zero
waste because one brand of one particular type of breakfast cereal is sold
loose
but nothing else is?

Incidentally, I've just managed to remember a common term that might cover
zero/low waste better: such items are sold loose.  A term which used to be
in common usage many decades ago when I was a child but which has almost
vanished because, these days, few things are sold loose.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reusable packaging

2019-09-14 Thread Ruben
On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 13:07:13 +0100, Paul Allen  wrote:
> I'm not sure if there's a generally-accepted
> term for this
> in British English yet.  I've seen "zero waste" (misleading, because it's
> not zero) and
> "unpackaged" (also misleading as it is in a package, just not a package
> that you can
> take away) as well as "bring your own container."  There are also "plastic
> free"
> shops, but that doesn't necessarily mean the same thing, although there is
> quite
> a lot of overlap.

There has been discussion about this on the forum: 
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=66456

I had drafted a (in retrospect not perfect) proposal as well: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Low_waste_and_zero_waste

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reusable packaging

2019-09-13 Thread Paul Allen
On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 at 11:04, Antoine Jaury via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> marc marc wrote:
>
> "well in this case, this shop isn't a bulk_purchase=yes shop
> bulk_purchase=* in osm mean that you can BUY item in bulk
> not that the shop has a stock of product that he packs for you on site.
> bulk_purchase informs how the customer can have the product and not in
> what form the stock in the shop is kept"
>
> I disagree on that definition. For me bulk purchase means that you can buy
>
>
> the exact quantity you want and is not related to the packaging even if in
>
>  most of the cases you have the opportunity to re-use a paper bag you already 
> used.
>
>
In British English (which OSM generally uses) "bulk" means "being large in
size, mass or
volume (of goods, etc.)."  See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bulk

The same applies to "bulk purchasing" which means "the purchase of much
larger quantities
than the usual, for a unit price 
that is lower than the usual."  See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulk_purchasing

 Also, the wiki page of the tag is not clear at all about that and we can
>
>  see multiple topics where people don't have the same definition:
>
>
Then the wiki page should be fixed and, in my opinion, fixed to reflect
British English usage.

I agree that we need a tag to indicate what you think of as bulk
purchasing, that is where
you bring your own container.  I'm not sure if there's a generally-accepted
term for this
in British English yet.  I've seen "zero waste" (misleading, because it's
not zero) and
"unpackaged" (also misleading as it is in a package, just not a package
that you can
take away) as well as "bring your own container."  There are also "plastic
free"
shops, but that doesn't necessarily mean the same thing, although there is
quite
a lot of overlap.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reusable packaging

2019-09-13 Thread Antoine Jaury via Tagging

marc marc wrote:

"well in this case, this shop isn't a bulk_purchase=yes shop
bulk_purchase=* in osm mean that you can BUY item in bulk
not that the shop has a stock of product that he packs for you on site.
bulk_purchase informs how the customer can have the product and not in
what form the stock in the shop is kept"


I disagree on that definition. For me bulk purchase means that you can buy the 
exact quantity you want and is not related to the packaging even if in most of 
the cases you have the opportunity to re-use a paper bag you already used. 
Also, the wiki page of the tag is not clear at all about that and we can see 
multiple topics where people don't have the same definition:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bulk_purchase  says: "Tag to use for  
bulk purchasing, if a shop offers 
products/without packaging/."

But the wiki page defining the "bulk purchasing" in the link says: "Bulk purchasing 
is the purchase of much larger quantities than the usual, for a unit price that is lower than the 
usual."

The two definitions presented in the same sentence don't say the same thing. In 
some countries there are a lot of shops specialized in selling products in 
large quantity. But you almost always have a container with the product.

Another thing is that it's really rare to be able to buy products without 
packaging. It's possible for bread for example but not with most of the food 
products. In most of the cases you need a package but the package could be a 
reusable one (glass jar, reused paper bag...).

Maybe the definition of the bulk_purchase tag is not clear enough and could be 
merge with the reused_packaging one.

I just see different things here that may need to be distinguished:
- buying products in large quantity,
- buying products without packaging,
- buying products using a reused package (a package that the customer chose and 
bring to buy the product such as a reused paper bag or a package that the shop 
proposes and expects the client to bring it back later),
- buying a product in bulk in order to buy the right quantity, no more, no less.

marc marc wrote:


PS: I think your butcher is outdated, I haven't seen any refusals
for at least 2 years :) including in Carrefour-like shop


I can tell you from many feedback I heard with different members of the 
Zero Waste France organization that there are still a lot of shops that 
refuse. And that's a barrier for people who want to start to reduce 
their amount of waste. That's why Zero Waste is making stickers to 
identify the shops that accept reusable containers. There is a real need 
identified there.


marc marc wrote:


Frederik Ramm wrote:

Do we even have a remote hope of achieving a
level of completeness and timeliness that makes this usable?

no more or no less than for landuses.
in places where there are contributors interested in the subject,
applications/sites using osm are the best ones.
where no osm contributors but contributors to proprietary databases,
those are the best.


That's also why I propose to add a condition for shops for which the 
involvement is not clear enough in the long time:
A shop accepting reusable containers should physically display it on 
the shop. It could be a sticker on the shop window, a sign hand-made 
by the shop saying "here you can bring your reusable containers" or a 
shop that explicitly says "Zero waste shop" meaning that the 
philosophy is not to sell products with packaging.


This will limit the tag to shops that really want to do the involvement. And I 
think that when you start doing it and you display it it's complicated to come 
back to your decision. This won't be seen as a good change from your customers 
if you stop accepting reusable container from one day to another.


On 12/09/2019 13:18, marc marc wrote:

well in this case, this shop isn't a bulk_purchase=yes shop
bulk_purchase=* in osm mean that you can BUY item in bulk
not that the shop has a stock of product that he packs for you on site.
bulk_purchase informs how the customer can have the product and not in
what form the stock in the shop is kept

PS: I think your butcher is outdated, I haven't seen any refusals
for at least 2 years :) including in Carrefour-like shop

Le 12.09.19 à 12:54, Antoine Jaury via Tagging a écrit :

And sorry Marc but I don't have an article explaining the use of one-use
only bag proposed by bulk purchase shops.

In my case, I buy only bulk purchase products and it often happen in
supermarket for example that you can only use the supermarket's paper
bags with a plastic window on the bag to see what is inside. I tried
once to use in an "Carrefour shop" a paper bag I reused from another
shop and one of the sell men explained to me that I couldn't do that
because they need to see what is inside the bag without opening it and
for hygienic reasons we can't reuse a bag multiple times.

As explained also in my previous message: butchers, backery, 

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reusable packaging

2019-09-13 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 12. Sep 2019, at 13:52, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> Do we even have a remote hope of achieving a
> level of completeness and timeliness that makes this usable?


if your apprehension comes true and we became the default go-to business 
directory, then definitely yes (but we would have to fight much more with spam 
and manipulation of data out of individual interests, than we do now). This 
role is now mostly taken by G Maps (and, depending on the business type, some 
other companies like yelp, booking or tripadvisor,...), but it isn’t excluded 
we could grow into this role as well.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reusable packaging

2019-09-12 Thread marc marc
Le 12.09.19 à 13:52, Frederik Ramm a écrit :
> A supermarket chain can introduce paper bags today, discontinue them 
> next week, and re-introduce plastic bags next month.

in theory yes.
in practice logistics chains probably change less quickly
than the urbanization of agricultural land.
if we think we can maintain the landuses (I am not sure when I see the 
catastrophic state of them in some countries with many contributors), 
then we can probably keep up to date a logistical change by decade.

> Do we even have a remote hope of achieving a
> level of completeness and timeliness that makes this usable?

no more or no less than for landuses.
in places where there are contributors interested in the subject, 
applications/sites using osm are the best ones.
where no osm contributors but contributors to proprietary databases, 
those are the best.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reusable packaging

2019-09-12 Thread Frederik Ramm
Hi,

I am generally skeptical of us becoming more and more a business directory.

I think that objects in the real world have some real-world, observable
properties, like a house that has a certain form and height, or a sign
that has been put up, or a bench, and while these properties can change,
it will usually involve some construction and not happen willy-nilly. I
am in favour of mapping such things.

On the other hand, there are commercial and policy things, like: Does
this shop accept credit cards, does this shop sell vegan food, or how
many varieties of chocolate bars does this shop stock, and does this
museum open on Sundays? While I can see that this information is
interesting in some situations, these properties can change on a whim. A
supermarket chain can introduce paper bags today, discontinue them next
week, and re-introduce plastic bags next month. Do we really want to go
into that effort of trying to actively represent what products are sold
and under what conditions? Do we even have a remote hope of achieving a
level of completeness and timeliness that makes this usable? Where does
it stop?

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reusable packaging

2019-09-12 Thread marc marc
well in this case, this shop isn't a bulk_purchase=yes shop
bulk_purchase=* in osm mean that you can BUY item in bulk
not that the shop has a stock of product that he packs for you on site.
bulk_purchase informs how the customer can have the product and not in 
what form the stock in the shop is kept

PS: I think your butcher is outdated, I haven't seen any refusals
for at least 2 years :) including in Carrefour-like shop

Le 12.09.19 à 12:54, Antoine Jaury via Tagging a écrit :
> And sorry Marc but I don't have an article explaining the use of one-use 
> only bag proposed by bulk purchase shops.
> 
> In my case, I buy only bulk purchase products and it often happen in 
> supermarket for example that you can only use the supermarket's paper 
> bags with a plastic window on the bag to see what is inside. I tried 
> once to use in an "Carrefour shop" a paper bag I reused from another 
> shop and one of the sell men explained to me that I couldn't do that 
> because they need to see what is inside the bag without opening it and 
> for hygienic reasons we can't reuse a bag multiple times.
> 
> As explained also in my previous message: butchers, backery, pastry 
> shops ... are the perfect example of shops with bulk products that will 
> not automatically accept reusable packaging. It's difficult for instance 
> to find a butcher that will accept that you use your glass jar to buy 
> some meat. Most of them will say that they have to use one-use only bags 
> for hygienic reasons.
> 
> 
> On 12/09/2019 12:29, marc marc wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Le 12.09.19 à 12:20, Antoine Jaury via Tagging a écrit :
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/reusable_packaging
>>> Definition: Describes a shop accepting reusable containers from their
>>> customers and/or proposing some
>> it'sn't the same as 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bulk_purchase ?
>> you said "Some shops selling bulk products will only accept that their
>> customers use the one-use only bags proposed by the shop. "
>> bulk product in one-use packaging provided by the store ? I have never
>> heard such a contradiction. do you have a link to an article on this
>> subject?
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reusable packaging

2019-09-12 Thread Antoine Jaury via Tagging
And sorry Marc but I don't have an article explaining the use of one-use 
only bag proposed by bulk purchase shops.


In my case, I buy only bulk purchase products and it often happen in 
supermarket for example that you can only use the supermarket's paper 
bags with a plastic window on the bag to see what is inside. I tried 
once to use in an "Carrefour shop" a paper bag I reused from another 
shop and one of the sell men explained to me that I couldn't do that 
because they need to see what is inside the bag without opening it and 
for hygienic reasons we can't reuse a bag multiple times.


As explained also in my previous message: butchers, backery, pastry 
shops ... are the perfect example of shops with bulk products that will 
not automatically accept reusable packaging. It's difficult for instance 
to find a butcher that will accept that you use your glass jar to buy 
some meat. Most of them will say that they have to use one-use only bags 
for hygienic reasons.



On 12/09/2019 12:29, marc marc wrote:

Hello,

Le 12.09.19 à 12:20, Antoine Jaury via Tagging a écrit :

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/reusable_packaging
Definition: Describes a shop accepting reusable containers from their
customers and/or proposing some

it'sn't the same as https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bulk_purchase ?
you said "Some shops selling bulk products will only accept that their
customers use the one-use only bags proposed by the shop. "
bulk product in one-use packaging provided by the store ? I have never
heard such a contradiction. do you have a link to an article on this
subject?
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reusable packaging

2019-09-12 Thread Antoine Jaury via Tagging

Hello,

It's not the same as the key bulk_purchase.

As explained:

   " OpenStreetMap allows to identify bulk purchase shops
    and it
   exists some applications like https://cartovrac.fr for people who
   just want a render of these data.

   Shops accepting reusable containers are not necessarily shops who
   sell "bulk products". It could be any shop that accepts that people
   bring their own containers to buy a food product, soap, detergent
   ... A shop that has bulk products, as described in the OpenStreetMap
   wiki , is not
   necessarily a shop who accepts reusable containers. Some shops
   selling bulk products will only accept that their customers use the
   one-use only bags proposed by the shop."

A shop that has bulk product doesn't necessarily sell its product with 
reusable packaging. Some shops use plastic bags to sell bulk products.


Also, a butcher, a bakery, a pastry shops are not considered as 
bulk_purchase shops but they can sell their product using reusable 
packaging.



On 12/09/2019 12:29, marc marc wrote:

Hello,

Le 12.09.19 à 12:20, Antoine Jaury via Tagging a écrit :

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/reusable_packaging
Definition: Describes a shop accepting reusable containers from their
customers and/or proposing some

it'sn't the same as https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bulk_purchase ?
you said "Some shops selling bulk products will only accept that their
customers use the one-use only bags proposed by the shop. "
bulk product in one-use packaging provided by the store ? I have never
heard such a contradiction. do you have a link to an article on this
subject?
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Reusable packaging

2019-09-12 Thread marc marc
Hello,

Le 12.09.19 à 12:20, Antoine Jaury via Tagging a écrit :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/reusable_packaging
> Definition: Describes a shop accepting reusable containers from their 
> customers and/or proposing some

it'sn't the same as https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bulk_purchase ?
you said "Some shops selling bulk products will only accept that their 
customers use the one-use only bags proposed by the shop. "
bulk product in one-use packaging provided by the store ? I have never 
heard such a contradiction. do you have a link to an article on this 
subject?
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