Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
Roy Wallace napsal(a): On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 1:20 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: leisure=garden garden=residential Much better. This clearly means you are tagging a particular *type* of garden. I don't see in what sense is this better - your own remark 'someone lives in the garden?' applies here as well, and it's even worse, because imho residential=garden suggest that this part of residential land is garden, but garden=residential suggests that this garden is for residential purposes. And the added bonus of abusing leisure=garden tag... Let me one more time explain what I think is wrong on this tag, so here is an example: Step one: Take a look at this area: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8ll=50.008617,15.799091spn=0.000565,0.001706z=20 Step two: Which one of these lines better describes the area? A) Place where flowers and other plants are grown in a decorative and structured manner or for scientific purposes. B) Open, green area for recreation. Step three: Take a look where did I get those descriptions: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgarden http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dpark Seems like recently the page about leisure=garden was significantly changed by copying a text from wikipedia, which makes an impression that almost any recreation ground can be called garden. Looking at the original wikipedia page, it lacks any clear definition of a garden. Second remark I have - is really definiton of OSM tag leisure=garden equivalent to the explanation from wikipedia? Regards, Petr Morávek signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
2010/5/14 Petr Morávek [Xificurk] xific...@gmail.com: And the added bonus of abusing leisure=garden tag... Let me one more time explain what I think is wrong on this tag, so here is an example: Step two: Which one of these lines better describes the area? A) Place where flowers and other plants are grown in a decorative and structured manner or for scientific purposes. B) Open, green area for recreation. Step three: Take a look where did I get those descriptions: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgarden http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dpark you are talking about abusing a tag, and then citing http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgarden where the third sentence is: The most common form is known as a residential garden. Most of the description actually is about residential gardens and the functions are described like this: A garden can have aesthetic, functional, and recreational uses: * Cooperation with nature * Observation of nature * Relaxation * Growing useful produce You can argue here as much as you like but I know many areas where residential gardens are already tagged with leisure=garden so there is not much to do (If you don't want to check all 27550 current uses of leisure=garden (tagwatch)). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
This is, at least in part, a difference between different dialects of English. Your definition A below (place where plants are grown in a structured and decorative manner) would be classified in both Britain and the USA as a flower garden. Both places would also use the term vegetable garden or kitchen garden to mean a place where plants are grown for food. A place where plants are grown for scientific purposes would be described in both places as a botanical garden. Definition B, open, green area for recreation, is used in British English but not in American English. Americans call that a yard, not a garden. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited) From :mailto:xific...@gmail.com Date :Fri May 14 10:42:56 America/Chicago 2010 Roy Wallace napsal(a): On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 1:20 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: leisure=garden garden=residential Much better. This clearly means you are tagging a particular *type* of garden. I don't see in what sense is this better - your own remark 'someone lives in the garden?' applies here as well, and it's even worse, because imho residential=garden suggest that this part of residential land is garden, but garden=residential suggests that this garden is for residential purposes. And the added bonus of abusing leisure=garden tag... Let me one more time explain what I think is wrong on this tag, so here is an example: Step one: Take a look at this area: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8ll=50.008617,15.799091spn=0.000565,0.001706z=20 Step two: Which one of these lines better describes the area? A) Place where flowers and other plants are grown in a decorative and structured manner or for scientific purposes. B) Open, green area for recreation. Step three: Take a look where did I get those descriptions: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgarden http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dpark Seems like recently the page about leisure=garden was significantly changed by copying a text from wikipedia, which makes an impression that almost any recreation ground can be called garden. Looking at the original wikipedia page, it lacks any clear definition of a garden. Second remark I have - is really definiton of OSM tag leisure=garden equivalent to the explanation from wikipedia? Regards, Petr Morávek -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
2010/5/14 Petr Morávek [Xificurk] xific...@gmail.com: That's the part of copied text from wikipedia, that really significantly changed the meaning of leisure=garden page on OSM wiki. Take a look at the history, only few weeks ago the content said something completely different (although it was marked as a stub). OK, I see what you mean (I was confused anyway because I remembered also a different content ;-) ). Still the old version is IMHO not useful either. On one hand it is an identical meaning to park. On the other decorative and structured are highly subjective terms when it comes to gardens. Are you aware of the two main lines of European garden history? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_garden http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_garden Reading your post I get the feeling that you think mainly about garden as a French Garden. Still I'm missing the difference from leisure=garden and leisure=park, that's why I think it's not a bad idea to change the meaning of leisure=garden also officially in OSM. Yes, a lot of those areas are here in Czech Republic, that's why I brought this up, because we were discussing it in talk-cz and did not came to any definite conclusion - some think this is an inappropriate usage (like I do), some think it's ok. you see. leisure=garden has for a long time not corresponded to the wiki definition, that's probably why someone changed it. Anyway, the page of leisure=garden was recently significantly changed not only in the level of detail, but the meaning of this tag seems to be shifted by this added content. In current state I can't see any clear definition/description of what this tag should be used for. but before neither ;-) As you said there is already a lot of leisure=garden areas, so the clear criteria for its usage should be resolved rather sooner then later, when the number grows even bigger. If anyone is able to give me a clear description of the meaning of this tag (that would include cut grass behind a family house), I'll shut up and use it according to that definition. what if someone decides not to cut his grass? It would IMHO still be a garden. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On 15 May 2010 05:09, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: OK, I see what you mean (I was confused anyway because I remembered also a different content ;-) ). Still the old version is IMHO not useful either. On one hand it is an identical meaning to park. On the other decorative and structured are highly subjective terms when it comes to gardens. Are you aware of the two main lines of European garden history? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_garden http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_garden I don't really see what the big deal is, leisure=garden can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, so it needs to be sub-tagged, and one possible way would be how I suggested: leisure=garden then garden=english_garden|french_garden|japanese_garden|water_garden|horticulture|lawn you could also expand horticulture to cover things if there is a predomonite type of gardening occurring, eg horticulture=flowers|vegetables ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
2010/5/14 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_garden http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_garden I don't really see what the big deal is, leisure=garden can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, so it needs to be sub-tagged, +1 and one possible way would be how I suggested: leisure=garden +1 then garden=english_garden|french_garden|japanese_garden|water_garden|horticulture|lawn -1, this seems pretty inconsequential ;-). If you go for structuring garden tagging, you cannot mix landcover (lawn), typology (english / french) and others. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On 15 May 2010 06:05, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: garden=english_garden|french_garden|japanese_garden|water_garden|horticulture|lawn -1, this seems pretty inconsequential ;-). If you go for structuring garden tagging, you cannot mix landcover (lawn), typology (english / french) and others. Well as I see it, lawn is both land cover and land use, although if you wanted to be more specific you could use garden=residential,surface=grass ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On Sat, 15 May 2010, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: what if someone decides not to cut his grass? It would IMHO still be a garden. My grass is rarely cut (climatic reasons) and we have left the main grassed area to become /meadow/. It's not a garden now in any English term, and is a /yard/. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
Liz wrote: On Sat, 15 May 2010, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: what if someone decides not to cut his grass? It would IMHO still be a garden. My grass is rarely cut (climatic reasons) and we have left the main grassed area to become /meadow/. It's not a garden now in any English term, and is a /yard/. You have animals grazing? Or perhaps you cut it for hay or silage? If not then it's just an unkempt garden, just letting the grass grow doesn't make it a meadow, except perhaps in pretentious gardening programmes :) Cheers, Chris ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
2010/5/14 Liz ed...@billiau.net: On Sat, 15 May 2010, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: what if someone decides not to cut his grass? It would IMHO still be a garden. My grass is rarely cut (climatic reasons) and we have left the main grassed area to become /meadow/. It's not a garden now in any English term, and is a /yard/. OK, maybe we should go for yard, is this what you suggest? I can't get off my German roots, and in German yours would still be your Garten (probably dependant on the size, if it gets agricultural dimensions it will usually not be called a Garten anymore) ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On Sat, 15 May 2010, Chris Hill wrote: You have animals grazing? Or perhaps you cut it for hay or silage? If not then it's just an unkempt garden, just letting the grass grow doesn't make it a meadow, except perhaps in pretentious gardening programmes :) I guess you assumed I lived in a city area. I don't. So if you leave your garden alone it reverts to meadow. I am no longer supporting a plant monoculture but a variety of plants which vary with the seasons. 10 years of drought give a low likelihood of feeding any animal from what is grown there. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On 15 May 2010 07:04, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: I guess you assumed I lived in a city area. I don't. So if you leave your garden alone it reverts to meadow. I am no longer supporting a plant monoculture but a variety of plants which vary with the seasons. 10 years of drought give a low likelihood of feeding any animal from what is grown there. My grandfather used to live on a farm, but still had a house yard fenced differently to the rest of the farm. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
2010/5/15 Petr Morávek [Xificurk] xific...@gmail.com: That's the thing, I'm not convinced that a lawn should be tagged as leisure=garden just because it's behind a fence around a family house. To me it isn't the lawn that makes the garden, but the fact that the garden can be viewed as a relaxation area adjoining the home outside. But I'm slowly changing my mind and a good subtagging could be the right way to go... the problem is that currently leisure=garden alone is used for a lot of different areas and it's becoming useless without better usage description on wiki. highway=road is equally useless, but it's used as a place marker until someone adds additional information, you need to think of OSM as an evolutionary process going from nothing to something approaching a complete map... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
2010/5/15 Petr Morávek [Xificurk] xific...@gmail.com: but before neither ;-) I disagree, it was pretty simple to ask myself if the area is Place where flowers and other plants are grown in a decorative and structured manner or for scientific purposes. - Botanical garden - yes, Japanese garden belonging to a tea-house - yes, lawn behind a family house - no, OK, it was good to tell: this is somehow cared for green grown either for decorative or scientific purposes, but it was not good enough if you care for the difference between a japanese garden, a botanical garden, the rose garden of a castle, some private garden with flowers and other plants grown in a decorative and structured way, but not if they were growing herbs or vegetables (but yes again if they were growing stuff with scientific interest),... ;-) But I'm slowly changing my mind and a good subtagging could be the right way to go... the problem is that currently leisure=garden alone is used for a lot of different areas and it's becoming useless without better usage description on wiki. +1, I agree, some subtags would be usefull. Probably some of them could be applicable to other tags as well (leisure=park, landuse=orchard, ...) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On 15 May 2010 11:09, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: and other plants grown in a decorative and structured way, but not if they were growing herbs or vegetables (but yes again if they were growing stuff with scientific interest),... ;-) Market gardens grow vegtables in a small plot smaller than a farm, but not always joined to a house. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_gardening ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On Sat, 15 May 2010, Chris Hill wrote: No I didn't assume anything, except that what you have is land attached to a house. That is a garden. Green or not, maintained or not. Decked, paved or grassed, cultivated or not. A meadow is agricultural land. still wrong, the area under discussion was a vineyard, separated from the house garden by a physical barrier ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
2010/5/13 Petr Morávek [Xificurk] xific...@gmail.com: By themselves not, but they are within the residential land and this tagging proposal follows the scheme like highway=service + service=whatever. I admit, it's not the best solution, but it is already a proposed scheme. I don't have a better solution... maybe it would be better to add a new leisure value, I'm opened to reasonable suggestions. I have personally no idea what the proper english word could be. leisure=garden garden=residential ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 1:20 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: leisure=garden garden=residential Much better. This clearly means you are tagging a particular *type* of garden. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
Roy Wallace napsal(a): 2010/5/10 Petr Morávek [Xificurk] xific...@gmail.com Until there is a better solution I'll use the proposed scheme of landuse='residential' + residential='garden'. FWIW, I don't like that. Look at residential=garden...someone lives in the garden? Well, yes :) You don't need to sleep there over night (although especially kids do that sometimes) to designate it as a residential area. Petr signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
Petr Morávek [Xificurk] wrote: But after a while of searching the wiki, I found something reasonable... Until there is a better solution I'll use the proposed scheme of landuse='residential' + residential='garden'. Landuses are a relatively large-scale, abstract classification. A typical residential landuse area contains many buildings, gardens and other associated features. So gardens can certainly be a part of a residential area, but they aren't residential areas themselves. Tobias Knerr ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
I really really don't think it is a good idea to degrade the leisure='garden' tag to mark everything from a castle garden, dendrological garden (with or without public access), or e.g. small Japanese garden belonging to a tea-house, to the extreme case of plain cut grass in some backyard. Such a vague usage of a tag is imho something that shouldn't be in OSM. Tagging every piece of an area with surface=* really isn't an option as I wrote before. But after a while of searching the wiki, I found something reasonable... Until there is a better solution I'll use the proposed scheme of landuse='residential' + residential='garden'. Regards, Petr Morávek signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
2010/5/10 Petr Morávek [Xificurk] xific...@gmail.com Until there is a better solution I'll use the proposed scheme of landuse='residential' + residential='garden'. FWIW, I don't like that. Look at residential=garden...someone lives in the garden? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 11:48 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: Please don't confuse land use, what the land is used for, and land cover, what is the upper most covering on the ground... Good point. landuse=forest (or tree_farm if locally defined?) is true even for the week (or whatever) between when the clearcut harvesters leave and the forester shows up to replant seedlings, the intent tax status hasn't changed. -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 10:56 PM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:01 AM, Jonas Minnberg sas...@gmail.com wrote: That is what I like about it - when all I can find out about an area is that is green and lies in between buildings, yard is an appropriately vague word. You say you only know two things: 1) it is green -- color=green (IMHO, this is silly - don't bother mapping this) don't map it is a bad advice, lets say it's already mapped by e.g. me as a leisure=park even though it isn't. So the question is how do you handle the edge cases, that someone as scrupleless as me would tag as a park. I would tag it as leisure=park, access=no 2) lies in between buildings -- just map the buildings with building=yes areas On the other hand, if you actually know that it's a private garden, then that's a different story - see the other posts about how to tag this. There are buildings which don't have atriums. One could map it as leisure=private_yard_between_houses + surface=[green_stuff | mostly_concrete] perhaps defaulting to render green as a park. Maybe it's hard to decide because there are so many words for semi private yard, other words can be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrium_%28architecture%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrangle_%28architecture%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtyard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patio_garden http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backyard And that's not even counting what Petr wants, front side garden. -- /emj PS. Jonas hälsa Emil DS. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
M∡rtin Koppenhoefer napsal(a): 2010/5/6 Petr Morávek [Xificurk] xific...@gmail.com: To the proposed solutions in this thread: * highway=pedestrian, area=yes - It doesn't really make sense to me to tag private fenced and _green_ areas by highway tag. sure, for green areas it isn't, for paved ones it IMO is. Yeah, but as the thread says - we are talking about the green ones ;-) * surface=grass, surface=lawn, surface=whatever - I don't like this because what I really want to map is not that my neighbour has a lawn behind his house, but the fact that there is a private green property add access=private? You missed the point - I don't want to add the information about the surface, I just want to say that this area is a backyard/garden around family house. - I think it makes no sense to try to map and tag every piece of these areas like this is grass, this is a bed of carrot, there are roses, here we have some bushes etc. why not? As long as people do want to do this and only tag what is there, I don't have a problem with it. Well, the first problem is that the surface may change during quite a short period of time, so it doesn't really make much sense to try to map it all and the idea of keeping that data up to date is crazy. Second problem is that, personally when I look at the map, I would like to know that here behind the fence is grass, maybe some plants or trees, but I really don't care if it is a bed of carrot, roses, or tomatos... or it's only plain grass. * leisure='garden' or leisure='park' - see above leisure=park is not the right choice, sure. But leisure=garden could IMO qualify. a) because it is at least in some areas common practise ;-) and b) the size of the garden is already determined by the size of the polygon. If you use this tag only for huge gardens of estates/castles it is more or less useless and hard to tell the difference from a park. Parks also have sometimes fences around them, limited access, no access, fee for access, castles / mansions and others inside them. Big gardens are basically parks! Gardens on the other hand can be completely different, from french barocque gardens to English gardens to zen gardens (not even green). All of them are usually much bigger then the usual detached house garden, and can therefore simply be differentiated automatically just by their size (e.g. mapnik can do this without any additional processing just by standard rules). For human readers of the map it is even easier. I would like to see a difference in tagging the grassy area with small basin (I wouldn't call this garden and neither would anyone who follows description on OSM wiki) and real garden, both can be the same size. Furthermore, it's not really true that you can with certainty differentiate large gardens from a family house backyard, because it's common practice to tag the whole block of these properties together with leisure='garden', so that a lot of small gardens is joined into one polygon. Best regards, Petr Morávek signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
2010/5/7 Petr Morávek [Xificurk] xific...@gmail.com: * surface=grass, surface=lawn, surface=whatever - I don't like this because what I really want to map is not that my neighbour has a lawn behind his house, but the fact that there is a private green property add access=private? You missed the point - I don't want to add the information about the surface, I just want to say that this area is a backyard/garden around family house. That's what access=private says (that it is a private property). If you want to deal with the around family house-fact: draw the house. - I think it makes no sense to try to map and tag every piece of these areas like this is grass, this is a bed of carrot, there are roses, here we have some bushes etc. why not? As long as people do want to do this and only tag what is there, I don't have a problem with it. Second problem is that, personally when I look at the map, I would like to know that here behind the fence is grass, maybe some plants or trees, but I really don't care if it is a bed of carrot, roses, or tomatos... or it's only plain grass. well, then simply don't tag it like that. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
2010/5/6 Jonas Minnberg sas...@gmail.com: landuse=lawn (For smaller areas of kept grass that are either inaccessible or not meant to - you know - picnic on or similar). landuse=yard (For private backyards etc, usually inaccessible, even if they may look park-like on the satellite). For the first there is already landuse=grass, for the latter highway=pedestrian, area=yes. For accessibility use the access-tags, e.g. in your examples access=no and access=private. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On 06/05/2010 13:49, Jonas Minnberg wrote: Ok so I keep running into these; green areas visible on satellite imagery that are tagged as parks but aren't really. My first instinct was to remove them, but that was mostly met with skepticism and alternative tag suggestions. So I am thinking of inventing a couple of new tags for this: landuse=lawn (For smaller areas of kept grass that are either inaccessible or not meant to - you know - picnic on or similar). landuse=yard (For private backyards etc, usually inaccessible, even if they may look park-like on the satellite). I think yard is a rather vague word, as it could also be a farmyard, industrial yard, courtyard, shipyard etc. What about landuse=curtilage See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtilage This is the official / legal term for the enclosed area around a dwelling. And its (usually) private, not accessible by the public. It might include a lawn, trees/plants, a shed, a paved area etc. Craig ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
Jonas Minnberg wrote: [snip] landuse=yard (For private backyards etc, usually inaccessible, even if they may look park-like on the satellite). In the UK we would sometimes call a backyard a garden. leisure=garden already exists. Cheers, Chris ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On Thursday 06 May 2010 15:06:36 Jonas Minnberg wrote: for the latter highway=pedestrian, area=yes. For accessibility use the access-tags, e.g. in your examples access=no and access=private. This would really confuse I think. This is not confusing, it is simply wrong. Nobody in his right mind will tag a private yard/garden with highway=pedestrian. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On 6 May 2010 22:49, Jonas Minnberg sas...@gmail.com wrote: landuse=lawn (For smaller areas of kept grass that are either inaccessible or not meant to - you know - picnic on or similar). landuse=yard (For private backyards etc, usually inaccessible, even if they may look park-like on the satellite). Please don't confuse land use, what the land is used for, and land cover, what is the upper most covering on the ground... How about using surface=grass or surface=lawn instead? You might also want to consider surface=astroturf for people that have fake lawns and in sports stadiums etc... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
2010/5/6 Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl: On Thursday 06 May 2010 15:06:36 Jonas Minnberg wrote: for the latter highway=pedestrian, area=yes. For accessibility use the access-tags, e.g. in your examples access=no and access=private. This would really confuse I think. This is not confusing, it is simply wrong. Nobody in his right mind will tag a private yard/garden with highway=pedestrian. if it's a garden, I would tag it like this (leisure=garden, access=private) if it's a backyard, it is IMHO not wrong. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Craig Wallace craig...@fastmail.fm wrote: I think yard is a rather vague word, as it could also be a farmyard, industrial yard, courtyard, shipyard etc. That is what I like about it - when all I can find out about an area is that is green and lies in between buildings, yard is an appropriately vague word. The area=yes, surface=grass tag mentioned will also work to that effect. What about landuse=curtilage See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtilage This is the official / legal term for the enclosed area around a dwelling. And its (usually) private, not accessible by the public. It might include a lawn, trees/plants, a shed, a paved area etc. Will work for when I can visibly confirm it. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
2010/5/6 Petr Morávek [Xificurk] xific...@gmail.com: To the proposed solutions in this thread: * highway=pedestrian, area=yes - It doesn't really make sense to me to tag private fenced and _green_ areas by highway tag. sure, for green areas it isn't, for paved ones it IMO is. * surface=grass, surface=lawn, surface=whatever - I don't like this because what I really want to map is not that my neighbour has a lawn behind his house, but the fact that there is a private green property add access=private? - I think it makes no sense to try to map and tag every piece of these areas like this is grass, this is a bed of carrot, there are roses, here we have some bushes etc. why not? As long as people do want to do this and only tag what is there, I don't have a problem with it. * leisure='garden' or leisure='park' - see above leisure=park is not the right choice, sure. But leisure=garden could IMO qualify. a) because it is at least in some areas common practise ;-) and b) the size of the garden is already determined by the size of the polygon. If you use this tag only for huge gardens of estates/castles it is more or less useless and hard to tell the difference from a park. Parks also have sometimes fences around them, limited access, no access, fee for access, castles / mansions and others inside them. Big gardens are basically parks! Gardens on the other hand can be completely different, from french barocque gardens to English gardens to zen gardens (not even green). All of them are usually much bigger then the usual detached house garden, and can therefore simply be differentiated automatically just by their size (e.g. mapnik can do this without any additional processing just by standard rules). For human readers of the map it is even easier. I therefore suggest to use leisure=garden and add subtags for the style (some might suit only bigger gardens): garden=Chinese garden=English garden=à_la_française (for French gardens) garden=rosarium (for rose gardens) garden=unclassified (suitable for many small private gardens) and maybe also subtags for the use: a) flower garden b) fruit and vegetable / kitchen garden (what tag could suit this? type?) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On 7 May 2010 06:09, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: and maybe also subtags for the use: a) flower garden b) fruit and vegetable / kitchen garden (what tag could suit this? type?) garden=horticulture ? horticulture=flowers|vegetables|fruit Although then you get into all kinds of fun debates over if tomatoes and other things are fruits or vegetables :D ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Green areas that are not parks (revisited)
On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:01 AM, Jonas Minnberg sas...@gmail.com wrote: That is what I like about it - when all I can find out about an area is that is green and lies in between buildings, yard is an appropriately vague word. You say you only know two things: 1) it is green -- color=green (IMHO, this is silly - don't bother mapping this) 2) lies in between buildings -- just map the buildings with building=yes areas On the other hand, if you actually know that it's a private garden, then that's a different story - see the other posts about how to tag this. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
