Re: [Tagging] Link roads between different highways type

[djakk djakk]

Hello !

I think there should be both pieces of information ! A tag to indicate the
main road typology and a tag to indicate the link road typology (basically
the lower class of the interchange but it can be something else in case of
spaghetti junctions).
And let renderers decide which feature they want to use (probably both).

Julien « djakk »


Le mer. 16 janv. 2019 à 14:23, Paul Allen  a écrit :

> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 13:07, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
> I would argue for motorway links (and trunk links according to the "German
>> trunk interpretation") it is already like this, and for all the other links
>> it could be the other way round. Maybe the rule should be something like
>> the link is the same class than the road it _belongs_ to (and this is to be
>> decided by the mapper, e.g. based on context, road typology, shape, ...).
>> In practise it seems it is done like this.
>>
>
> I would say the rule ought to be that it should be mapped in accordance
> with local laws and
> regulations as to the nature of the link.  If that cannot be determined,
> then the mapper has to use
> best guest based on context, topology, shape, speed limit and other
> signage.  For UK motorways
> the regulations say motorway access roads are classed as motorways and the
> road signage
> confirms it.  That is not necessarily the case for links other than to
> motorways, and possibly not
> even for all of those (there are always exceptions).
>
> I suspect the wiki entry was written in days of yore when a question arose
> about motorway
> access roads and it became enshrined as a general rule for all link roads
> of all types in all
> countries.  Whatever the origin, I think it is time to amend it to
> something more sensible.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Link roads between different highways type

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 13:07, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

I would argue for motorway links (and trunk links according to the "German
> trunk interpretation") it is already like this, and for all the other links
> it could be the other way round. Maybe the rule should be something like
> the link is the same class than the road it _belongs_ to (and this is to be
> decided by the mapper, e.g. based on context, road typology, shape, ...).
> In practise it seems it is done like this.
>

I would say the rule ought to be that it should be mapped in accordance
with local laws and
regulations as to the nature of the link.  If that cannot be determined,
then the mapper has to use
best guest based on context, topology, shape, speed limit and other
signage.  For UK motorways
the regulations say motorway access roads are classed as motorways and the
road signage
confirms it.  That is not necessarily the case for links other than to
motorways, and possibly not
even for all of those (there are always exceptions).

I suspect the wiki entry was written in days of yore when a question arose
about motorway
access roads and it became enshrined as a general rule for all link roads
of all types in all
countries.  Whatever the origin, I think it is time to amend it to
something more sensible.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Link roads between different highways type

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 16. Jan. 2019 um 13:20 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen :

> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 03:27, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>>
>> In the US, this shouldn't be a thing; should be trunk from the last ramp
>> due to the intersection.
>>
>
> Radical proposal: change the wiki.  Have it say that the link road should
> have the category
> specified by the pertinent authority: in some countries that is often (but
> not always) the higher
> category.  Something along those lines.  Because it's clear that it is
> very dependent on the
> country and may also be modified by local circumstances.  Having a global
> rule that doesn't
> apply in many circumstances is less than useful.
>



I would argue for motorway links (and trunk links according to the "German
trunk interpretation") it is already like this, and for all the other links
it could be the other way round. Maybe the rule should be something like
the link is the same class than the road it _belongs_ to (and this is to be
decided by the mapper, e.g. based on context, road typology, shape, ...).
In practise it seems it is done like this.

In cases where a minor road has short links to and from a major road, it is
already common practice to use the lower classification, e.g. here:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/185148546 (Italy)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/329572626 (DE)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/391467084 (DE)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/35141178 (UK, not tagged as a link but
comparable to above situations)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/4089085 (UK, same)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/118449015 (UK, maybe here's a tagging
issue?)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/114398311 (FR, not tagged as link)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/311566506 (FR same)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/35449361 (FR same)

in the UK and France I first did not find any links other than motorway and
trunk links (by clicking around) and had to use Overpass to find some:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/184421347 (wiki conformal)
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/41262553 (not)
etc.

Particularly situations like this would look very strange if they were
strictly following the idea of using the higher class:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/145520505

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Link roads between different highways type

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 03:27, Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
> In the US, this shouldn't be a thing; should be trunk from the last ramp
> due to the intersection.
>

Radical proposal: change the wiki.  Have it say that the link road should
have the category
specified by the pertinent authority: in some countries that is often (but
not always) the higher
category.  Something along those lines.  Because it's clear that it is very
dependent on the
country and may also be modified by local circumstances.  Having a global
rule that doesn't
apply in many circumstances is less than useful.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Link roads between different highways type

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 9:02 AM Philip Barnes  wrote:

>
>
> On 15 January 2019 14:03:38 GMT, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> >I think agreeing with the higher level is correct as the link usually
> >inheirets, or at least tolerates, the rules and design standards for
> >the
> >higher road.
>
> The exception will be where a motorway ends at a roundabout, the
> roundabout will not be under motorway regulations.


In the US, this shouldn't be a thing; should be trunk from the last ramp
due to the intersection.
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Re: [Tagging] Link roads between different highways type

[Philip Barnes]

I did once have an issue with josm complaining about the classification of this 
roundabout. 

https://osm.org/go/eux0WFrmx-

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 15 January 2019 15:43:39 GMT, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>In reality this varies from case to case and from country to country.
>The important part is that the access rules are correct, and explicitly
>tagged, where needed.
>The general rule, i.e. to use the higher-level tagging takes largely
>care
>of this, as normally the higher-level road class has more access
>restrictions, at least for pedestrians, cyclists, small motorcycles,
>horses, 
>On the other hand I have met situations where (US) freeway exits ended
>in
>minor roads where some bigger vehicles surely would have problems.
>
>
>
>
>Virus-free.
>www.avast.com
>
><#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

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Re: [Tagging] Link roads between different highways type

[Volker Schmidt]

In reality this varies from case to case and from country to country.
The important part is that the access rules are correct, and explicitly
tagged, where needed.
The general rule, i.e. to use the higher-level tagging takes largely care
of this, as normally the higher-level road class has more access
restrictions, at least for pedestrians, cyclists, small motorcycles,
horses, 
On the other hand I have met situations where (US) freeway exits ended in
minor roads where some bigger vehicles surely would have problems.




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Re: [Tagging] Link roads between different highways type

[Philip Barnes]

On 15 January 2019 14:03:38 GMT, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>I think agreeing with the higher level is correct as the link usually
>inheirets, or at least tolerates, the rules and design standards for
>the
>higher road.

The exception will be where a motorway ends at a roundabout, the roundabout 
will not be under motorway regulations. 

Phil (trigpoint) 
>
>On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 04:51 Saeed Hubaishan wrote:
>
>> About the subject I used to tag the link with the lowest way class
>but in:
>>
>>
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Link_roads_between_different_highways_types
>> Link roads between different highways types - OpenStreetMap Wiki
>>
>
>> Based on my own understanding, this is how you tag the link roads,
>when
>> dealing with different highway categories. Always tag the link with
>the
>> highest class road.
>> wiki.openstreetmap.org
>>
>> it guides to use the hightest way class. I think this is not right
>> behavior link from motorway to tertiary way is tertiary way not 
>motorway,
>> and so.
>>
>> What do you think about this?
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Link roads between different highways type

[Paul Johnson]

I think agreeing with the higher level is correct as the link usually
inheirets, or at least tolerates, the rules and design standards for the
higher road.

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 04:51 Saeed Hubaishan  About the subject I used to tag the link with the lowest way class but in:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Link_roads_between_different_highways_types
> Link roads between different highways types - OpenStreetMap Wiki
> 
> Based on my own understanding, this is how you tag the link roads, when
> dealing with different highway categories. Always tag the link with the
> highest class road.
> wiki.openstreetmap.org
>
> it guides to use the hightest way class. I think this is not right
> behavior link from motorway to tertiary way is tertiary way not  motorway,
> and so.
>
> What do you think about this?
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Link roads between different highways type

[Georg Feddern]

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 11:52 Saeed Hubaishan  wrote:


About the subject I used to tag the link with the lowest way class
but in:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Link_roads_between_different_highways_types

it guides to use the hightest way class. I think this is not right
behavior link from motorway to tertiary way is tertiary way not
motorway, and so.

What do you think about this?



Am 15.01.2019 um 13:19 schrieb Johnparis:
> I agree with you.
>
> For roundabouts and circular junctions, I use the highest type. For 
link roads, the lowest.

>
> I could see an exception for motorway onramps, indicating "starting 
here you can't get off the motorway".

>
>

I could agree with you - with the exception of motorway on- and 
off-ramps, which are always motorway_link up to the end of the motorway 
regulations.


Georg

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Re: [Tagging] Link roads between different highways type

[Johnparis]

I agree with you.

For roundabouts and circular junctions, I use the highest type. For link
roads, the lowest.

I could see an exception for motorway onramps, indicating "starting here
you can't get off the motorway".






On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 11:52 Saeed Hubaishan  About the subject I used to tag the link with the lowest way class but in:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Link_roads_between_different_highways_types
> Link roads between different highways types - OpenStreetMap Wiki
> 
> Based on my own understanding, this is how you tag the link roads, when
> dealing with different highway categories. Always tag the link with the
> highest class road.
> wiki.openstreetmap.org
>
> it guides to use the hightest way class. I think this is not right
> behavior link from motorway to tertiary way is tertiary way not  motorway,
> and so.
>
> What do you think about this?
>
>
>
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