Re: [Tagging] Orientation of an adit?

[Tod Fitch]

This is exactly what I was looking for! And I see the wiki for man_made=adit 
was updated today to include mention of the direction tag.

Thanks!


> On Mar 10, 2017, at 6:11 AM, Zecke  wrote:
> 
> Please note that www.historic.place displays the orientation of adits. As it 
> can be seen here:
> http://gk.historic.place/historische_objekte/translate/en/index-en.html?zoom=17=49.27361=6.9515=n2218896180=KmHaSaHe
> 
> We evaluate the direction tag, Please note that the direction is seen from 
> the underground gallery outwards.
> 
> See also:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:direction
> 
> Regards,
> Carsten
> 
> Am 10.03.2017 um 14:48 schrieb Tod Fitch:
>> There are a number of abandoned adits and mine shafts in an area I’ve done 
>> some mapping in. When looking at old USGS topographic maps of the area, I’ve 
>> noticed that they used to align their symbol for an adit to show its 
>> orientation.
> 



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Re: [Tagging] Orientation of an adit?

[Kevin Kenny]

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Mark Wagner  wrote:

> Thing is, the information *isn't* available by other means.  Adits
> don't always go straight in -- of the two I'm aware of, both are at
> rather sharp angles to the (very local) slope of the hill.
>
OK, you've convinced me, and in any case, I was playing
the devil's advocate and anticipating the objections of others.

I still like this approach for cave entrances, small dams (represented
as points), waterfalls on small streams (represented as points), and
other similar features where there is a point feature with a flow
of goods, water, traffic, 
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Re: [Tagging] Orientation of an adit?

[Kevin Kenny]

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 7:34 AM, Kevin Kenny 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I can just now hear, nevertheless, a chorus asserting that the
>> information is available by other means and therefore does not belong in
>> OSM. An adit or a cave entrance (that isn't a sinkhole) pretty much has to
>> go into a hillside, and a waterfall or a dam flows downhill, so with
>> information about local topography, the direction can be determined.
>>
> In many parts of the world there may not be elevation data with an open
> license of suitable resolution to make this determination for an adit.
>

Outside the band of 54° S to 60° N, you're certainly right about that.
Within that band, the August 2015 NASA data set is in the public domain and
has coverage at 30 m resolution horizontally. That's probably Not Quite
Good Enough - I get spoilt by the 10 m coverage available for North America.
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Re: [Tagging] Orientation of an adit?

[Mark Wagner]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:34:51 -0500
Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> I can just now hear, nevertheless, a chorus asserting that the
> information is available by other means and therefore does not belong
> in OSM. An adit or a cave entrance (that isn't a sinkhole) pretty
> much has to go into a hillside, and a waterfall or a dam flows
> downhill, so with information about local topography, the direction
> can be determined.

Thing is, the information *isn't* available by other means.  Adits
don't always go straight in -- of the two I'm aware of, both are at
rather sharp angles to the (very local) slope of the hill.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Orientation of an adit?

[Mike Thompson]

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Zecke  wrote:

> Am 10.03.2017 20:04, schrieb Mike Thompson:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 7:34 AM, Kevin Kenny 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I can just now hear, nevertheless, a chorus asserting that the
>> information is available by other means and therefore does not belong in
>> OSM. An adit or a cave entrance (that isn't a sinkhole) pretty much has to
>> go into a hillside, and a waterfall or a dam flows downhill, so with
>> information about local topography, the direction can be determined.
>>
> In many parts of the world there may not be elevation data with an open
> license of suitable resolution to make this determination for an adit.
>
> It's not true that an adit always enters the hill in slope direction. I
> know of many adits entering at an angle. So this approach does not really
> help. We decided to use a different symbol for adits without direction
> information than for directed adits.
>
All the more reason to explicitly tag the direction of the opening.
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Re: [Tagging] Orientation of an adit?

[Zecke]

Am 10.03.2017 20:04, schrieb Mike Thompson:



On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 7:34 AM, Kevin Kenny 
> wrote:



I can just now hear, nevertheless, a chorus asserting that the
information is available by other means and therefore does not
belong in OSM. An adit or a cave entrance (that isn't a sinkhole)
pretty much has to go into a hillside, and a waterfall or a dam
flows downhill, so with information about local topography, the
direction can be determined.

In many parts of the world there may not be elevation data with an 
open license of suitable resolution to make this determination for an 
adit.
It's not true that an adit always enters the hill in slope direction. I 
know of many adits entering at an angle. So this approach does not 
really help. We decided to use a different symbol for adits without 
direction information than for directed adits.
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Re: [Tagging] Orientation of an adit?

[Mike Thompson]

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 7:34 AM, Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

>
> I can just now hear, nevertheless, a chorus asserting that the information
> is available by other means and therefore does not belong in OSM. An adit
> or a cave entrance (that isn't a sinkhole) pretty much has to go into a
> hillside, and a waterfall or a dam flows downhill, so with information
> about local topography, the direction can be determined.
>
In many parts of the world there may not be elevation data with an open
license of suitable resolution to make this determination for an adit.
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Re: [Tagging] Orientation of an adit?

[Dalibor Jelínek]

Hello,
+1 for direction tag.

Dalibor

> -Original Message-
> From: Zecke [mailto:zecke@historic.place]
> Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 3:12 PM
> To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools <tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Orientation of an adit?
> 
> Please note that www.historic.place displays the orientation of adits.
> As it can be seen here:
> http://gk.historic.place/historische_objekte/translate/en/index-
> en.html?zoom=17=49.27361=6.9515=n2218896180=Km
> HaSaHe
> 
> We evaluate the direction tag, Please note that the direction is seen from the
> underground gallery outwards.
> 
> See also:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:direction
> 
> Regards,
> Carsten
> 
> Am 10.03.2017 um 14:48 schrieb Tod Fitch:
> > There are a number of abandoned adits and mine shafts in an area I’ve
> done some mapping in. When looking at old USGS topographic maps of the
> area, I’ve noticed that they used to align their symbol for an adit to show 
> its
> orientation.
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Orientation of an adit?

[Kevin Kenny]

 On 03/10/2017 08:48 AM, Tod Fitch wrote:

There are a number of abandoned adits and mine shafts in an area I’ve
done some mapping in. When looking at old USGS topographic maps of the
area, I’ve noticed that they used to align their symbol for an adit to
show its orientation.

My inclination, at present, is to use either:

bearing=*
or
adit:bearing=*

Where the value would be in degrees clockwise from north, though I
doubt that more accuracy is needed than just compass points.

Comments? Suggestions?

I rather like this idea (which, I'm afraid, means that the consensus here
will not.

It would be useful not only for adits, but also for cave entrances.
Moreover, I'd like to see such a thing on small dams, small waterfalls, and
other directional point features. I know that the hydrographic ones can be
deduced from direction of the flow of the watercourse, but that, too, is
difficult to extract from the OSM data model - difficult enough that I know
of no rendering of OSM that is able to use the conventional symbol of blue
hashmarks across a stream to represent a waterfall or black ones to
represent a dam. It would similarly help for point objects used to
represent barriers such as gates.

I can just now hear, nevertheless, a chorus asserting that the information
is available by other means and therefore does not belong in OSM. An adit
or a cave entrance (that isn't a sinkhole) pretty much has to go into a
hillside, and a waterfall or a dam flows downhill, so with information
about local topography, the direction can be determined. The conventional
symbol for a gate would be drawn across the roadway (and presumably the
roadway direction is available), and so on. The fact that this hasn't been
done yet, I'd argue, indicates that it is difficult enough that a little
bit of auxiliary data might help!

And now I've got something added to my "to do eventually if nobody gets to
it first" list - a piece of programming to take features of this sort, find
corresponding points on interpolated data in an elevation data set, and use
gradient information to come up with a direction for rendering the symbol
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Re: [Tagging] Orientation of an adit?

[Zecke]

Please note that www.historic.place displays the orientation of adits. 
As it can be seen here:

http://gk.historic.place/historische_objekte/translate/en/index-en.html?zoom=17=49.27361=6.9515=n2218896180=KmHaSaHe

We evaluate the direction tag, Please note that the direction is seen 
from the underground gallery outwards.


See also:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:direction

Regards,
Carsten

Am 10.03.2017 um 14:48 schrieb Tod Fitch:

There are a number of abandoned adits and mine shafts in an area I’ve done some 
mapping in. When looking at old USGS topographic maps of the area, I’ve noticed 
that they used to align their symbol for an adit to show its orientation.



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Re: [Tagging] Orientation of an adit?

[Colin Smale]

On 2017-03-10 14:48, Tod Fitch wrote:

> There are a number of abandoned adits and mine shafts in an area I've done 
> some mapping in. When looking at old USGS topographic maps of the area, I've 
> noticed that they used to align their symbol for an adit to show its 
> orientation.
> 
> I'd like to duplicate that rendering on the topographic maps I make, but 
> adits [1 [1]] are single points in the OSM data model without a bearing or 
> orientation tag so there is no information to drive the rendering.
> 
> There does not seem to be much in the wiki [2 [2]], [3 [3]] or taginfo [4 
> [4]] for applying a bearing or orientation to a point.
> 
> My inclination, at present, is to use either:
> 
> bearing=*
> or
> adit:bearing=*

Speaking of inclination, would that not be a relevant characteristic for
adits? They are not all level, as I understand it. 

//colin 

Links:
--
[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dadit
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN/Tag_mappings
[3]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Seamarks/Sectored_and_Directional_Lights
[4] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=bearing___
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