Re: [Tagging] Postal verses locational addresses

2023-09-14 Thread Greg Troxel
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 12/9/23 03:57, Greg Troxel wrote:
>> The fundamental issue is that there are postal addresses and what might
>> be called "civil addresses" or "physical addresses" ('locational' I
>> understand but is not normal English usage).
> I could not think of a better descriptive 'word' for what I wanted to
> express.

Sure, didn't mean to be unkind.  I understood you and was trying to
suggest something that fits for en_GB and en_US both.  (I am an en_US
native speaker.)

>>   In the US, we also have
>> "911 dispatchable location" which is all about getting there physically
>> and is US-bureaucatic-speak.
>>
>> OSM has decided to tag postal addresses on address points.   I find this
>> an odd choice, and I think it really doesn't mean this, as companies
>> that use PO boxes are not tagged that way, but with the street address.
>>
>> The only fix I think of is to have a separate set of tags paddr: and a
>> rule that those should be set if they are different from the addr: tags
>> (which are postal).  except postcode, which is a postal-only.
>
> Err the zip/postcode in the UK is a (small) physical area. It is used
> by truck delivery drivers to enter into their GPS to find a route to
> the delivery point. See
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcodes_in_the_United_Kingdom

In the UK, yes.  In the US, "zip codes" are not technically a physical
area, even though they act like one and most people don't understand
this.  They are a set of delivery addresses.  They do not always line up
with civil boundaries.  You can be in TownA and have a postal address
that has TownA in it but the zip of TownB because that carrier route
handles your mail.

And, addresses on property deeds, etc. do not have zip codes.  They are
not part of "civil addresses", only mailing.

I am unclear on whether a UK postcode is part of one's civil/legal
address.

> Possibly the OSM addr thinking is based on the UK where the postal
> address is the physical location?There maybe exceptions to this in the
> UK too?

Likely.  Everything in OSM was/is based on UK thinking, and sometimes
that is ok and occasionally it is not.

>> All in all I think it was a mistake to tag postal addresses.  Maybe we
>> can just redefine addr:foo to be the physical address, except
>> addr:postcode is the code assigned by the government/monopoly delivery
>> service.  And then add some mailing address tag for things that need
>> them.
>
> I do think OSM is more of a location data base. Imaging a personal
> visit to these places with addresses quite some distance (miles) away
> .. nasty. And some of them have more than two locations...

Agreed.  And there is also the issue where a physical place has an
address in the normal "drive to it" or "911 dispatchable location"
sense, but has a PO Box in another state that you write to in order to
interact by mail.  IMHO it would be completely unreasonable to tag this
PO box address on a store node as addr:foo.   If somebody wanted to add

  addr_mailing_not_physical:foo

I wouldn't like it but I couldn't say it was super wrong.

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Re: [Tagging] Postal verses locational addresses

2023-09-14 Thread Warin


On 14/9/23 04:50, Marc_marc wrote:

Le 13.09.23 à 19:21, Jez Nicholson a écrit :

OSM addresses are physical, 'locational' addresses


ok

it is the anomalous postal addresses that need to have their own 
schemeif at all.


some mapper in France are using contact:* for that (and also
some contact:addr for a kind of number+street and sometime CP+city)

note that no (including fr) app is known for using that
and due the fact that some mappers also put physical/locational 
addresses into contact:*, you can't know what this info represents 
without having the other addr:* object with the same address

to compare the distance between the 2



Comparing the difference between the two and it still may not be 
determined.



Perhaps

contact:postal:street=* etc. could do the job and be reasonably obvious? 
Yes there would need to be a good wiki page to say that these are 
postal/delivery addresses rather than the physical location of the 
feature, and then changes to the addr: wiki pages ... The changes to 
addr pages I see as clarification of the usual practice and normal 
circumstance. He use of contact:postal:*=* would only be for the 
exceptions?



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Re: [Tagging] Postal verses locational addresses

2023-09-13 Thread Marc_marc

Le 13.09.23 à 19:21, Jez Nicholson a écrit :

OSM addresses are physical, 'locational' addresses


ok


it is the anomalous postal addresses that need to have their own schemeif 
at all.


some mapper in France are using contact:* for that (and also
some contact:addr for a kind of number+street and sometime CP+city)

note that no (including fr) app is known for using that
and due the fact that some mappers also put physical/locational 
addresses into contact:*, you can't know what this info represents 
without having the other addr:* object with the same address

to compare the distance between the 2



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Re: [Tagging] Postal verses locational addresses

2023-09-13 Thread Jez Nicholson
IMHO OSM addresses are physical, 'locational' addresses and it is the
anomalous postal addresses that need to have their own schemeif at all.

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023, 17:33 Philip Barnes,  wrote:

>
>
> On 12 September 2023 10:28:11 CEST, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >On 12/9/23 03:57, Greg Troxel wrote:
> >> The fundamental issue is that there are postal addresses and what might
> >> be called "civil addresses" or "physical addresses" ('locational' I
> >> understand but is not normal English usage).
> >I could not think of a better descriptive 'word' for what I wanted to
> express.
> >>   In the US, we also have
> >> "911 dispatchable location" which is all about getting there physically
> >> and is US-bureaucatic-speak.
> >>
> >> OSM has decided to tag postal addresses on address points.   I find this
> >> an odd choice, and I think it really doesn't mean this, as companies
> >> that use PO boxes are not tagged that way, but with the street address.
> >>
> >> The only fix I think of is to have a separate set of tags paddr: and a
> >> rule that those should be set if they are different from the addr: tags
> >> (which are postal).  except postcode, which is a postal-only.
> >
> >
> >Err the zip/postcode in the UK is a (small) physical area. It is used by
> truck delivery drivers to enter into their GPS to find a route to the
> delivery point. See
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcodes_in_the_United_Kingdom
> >
> >Possibly the OSM addr thinking is based on the UK where the postal
> address is the physical location?There maybe exceptions to this in the UK
> too?
> >
> The company I work for has a PO box meaning the postcode is not the actual
> location.
>
> Visitors often arrive having put the postcode into their satnav and have
> had a detour via the Royal Mail sorting office several miles away.
>
> Putting the company name into an  OSM based router will take you straight
> there.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Postal verses locational addresses

2023-09-13 Thread Philip Barnes



On 12 September 2023 10:28:11 CEST, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>On 12/9/23 03:57, Greg Troxel wrote:
>> The fundamental issue is that there are postal addresses and what might
>> be called "civil addresses" or "physical addresses" ('locational' I
>> understand but is not normal English usage).
>I could not think of a better descriptive 'word' for what I wanted to express.
>>   In the US, we also have
>> "911 dispatchable location" which is all about getting there physically
>> and is US-bureaucatic-speak.
>> 
>> OSM has decided to tag postal addresses on address points.   I find this
>> an odd choice, and I think it really doesn't mean this, as companies
>> that use PO boxes are not tagged that way, but with the street address.
>> 
>> The only fix I think of is to have a separate set of tags paddr: and a
>> rule that those should be set if they are different from the addr: tags
>> (which are postal).  except postcode, which is a postal-only.
>
>
>Err the zip/postcode in the UK is a (small) physical area. It is used by truck 
>delivery drivers to enter into their GPS to find a route to the delivery 
>point. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcodes_in_the_United_Kingdom
>
>Possibly the OSM addr thinking is based on the UK where the postal address is 
>the physical location?There maybe exceptions to this in the UK too?
>
The company I work for has a PO box meaning the postcode is not the actual 
location.

Visitors often arrive having put the postcode into their satnav and have had a 
detour via the Royal Mail sorting office several miles away.

Putting the company name into an  OSM based router will take you straight there.

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Re: [Tagging] Postal verses locational addresses

2023-09-12 Thread Warin



On 12/9/23 03:57, Greg Troxel wrote:

The fundamental issue is that there are postal addresses and what might
be called "civil addresses" or "physical addresses" ('locational' I
understand but is not normal English usage).
I could not think of a better descriptive 'word' for what I wanted to 
express.

  In the US, we also have
"911 dispatchable location" which is all about getting there physically
and is US-bureaucatic-speak.

OSM has decided to tag postal addresses on address points.   I find this
an odd choice, and I think it really doesn't mean this, as companies
that use PO boxes are not tagged that way, but with the street address.

The only fix I think of is to have a separate set of tags paddr: and a
rule that those should be set if they are different from the addr: tags
(which are postal).  except postcode, which is a postal-only.



Err the zip/postcode in the UK is a (small) physical area. It is used by 
truck delivery drivers to enter into their GPS to find a route to the 
delivery point. See 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcodes_in_the_United_Kingdom


Possibly the OSM addr thinking is based on the UK where the postal 
address is the physical location?There maybe exceptions to this in the 
UK too?




All in all I think it was a mistake to tag postal addresses.  Maybe we
can just redefine addr:foo to be the physical address, except
addr:postcode is the code assigned by the government/monopoly delivery
service.  And then add some mailing address tag for things that need
them.



I do think OSM is more of a location data base. Imaging a personal visit 
to these places with addresses quite some distance (miles) away .. 
nasty. And some of them have more than two locations...



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Re: [Tagging] Postal verses locational addresses

2023-09-11 Thread Greg Troxel
The fundamental issue is that there are postal addresses and what might
be called "civil addresses" or "physical addresses" ('locational' I
understand but is not normal English usage).  In the US, we also have
"911 dispatchable location" which is all about getting there physically
and is US-bureaucatic-speak.

OSM has decided to tag postal addresses on address points.   I find this
an odd choice, and I think it really doesn't mean this, as companies
that use PO boxes are not tagged that way, but with the street address.

The only fix I think of is to have a separate set of tags paddr: and a
rule that those should be set if they are different from the addr: tags
(which are postal).  except postcode, which is a postal-only.

It is further messy that there are postal addresses, and then addresses
that Fedex, UPS, DHL etc. deliver to.  In the US  mostly the post office
(USPS) maintains a database and people verify/match against it and those
are used as legitimate physical delivery addresses by non-USPS carriers.

All in all I think it was a mistake to tag postal addresses.  Maybe we
can just redefine addr:foo to be the physical address, except
addr:postcode is the code assigned by the government/monopoly delivery
service.  And then add some mailing address tag for things that need
them.

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Re: [Tagging] Postal verses locational addresses

2023-09-10 Thread Snusmumriken via Tagging
On Sun, 2023-09-10 at 19:09 +1000, Warin wrote:
> HI,
> 
> I am coming across cases of OSM entered addresses on buildings that
> are 
> some kilometers from the nominated address location. These appear to
> be 
> 'gated communities', 'retirement villages' and possibly other things 
> that use some official address and thus keep deliveries from going to
> the actual location but going through the office.
> 
> I can probably lump all of a group together in some kind of relation 
> (e.g. landuse) that would reduce the warnings down from many to one.
> But 
> I wonder if these postal addresses would be better entered in some
> other 
> way. One issue is a routers to some address having more than one
> result 
> - all with the same address..
> 
> Ideas?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal:Provides_feature
Could fit the bill


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Re: [Tagging] Postal verses locational addresses

2023-09-10 Thread Jez Nicholson
There's https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:delivery_point but I wasn't
convinced by the description

On Sun, 10 Sep 2023, 10:15 Warin, <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> HI,
>
> I am coming across cases of OSM entered addresses on buildings that are
> some kilometers from the nominated address location. These appear to be
> 'gated communities', 'retirement villages' and possibly other things
> that use some official address and thus keep deliveries from going to
> the actual location but going through the office.
>
> I can probably lump all of a group together in some kind of relation
> (e.g. landuse) that would reduce the warnings down from many to one. But
> I wonder if these postal addresses would be better entered in some other
> way. One issue is a routers to some address having more than one result
> - all with the same address..
>
> Ideas?
>
>
>
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