Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-22 Thread Janko Mihelić
I suggest we use shopping_centre as a broader term. A mall is a special
type of shopping centre (big, enclosed, with amenities). Tagging a mall
with shop=shopping_centre isn't wrong, but shop=mall is more specific.

That way we can tag everything that isn't a mall but has several shops
together with shopping_centre.

Janko Mihelić
 Dana 22. 10. 2014. 00:22 osoba John Willis jo...@mac.com napisala je:



 Sent from my iPad

 On Oct 21, 2014, at 10:45 PM, Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 I was also thinking that landuse=retail makes more sense than either mall
 or shopping_centre. If you have a big building enclosing lots of shops, you
 can tag it building=mall.

 johnw, I understand the distinction you're making (I would call your
 shopping_centre a strip mall, I think). But do you really hear people
 use these terms without overlap? Do you have some evidence of this usage?
 For example, in wikipedia, the page
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shopping_centres_in_the_United_Kingdom
 distinguishes shopping centres (what you're defining as malls) from retail
 parks (which you're defining as shopping centres).


 A strip mall is usually much smaller. It doesn't have any anchor stores.
 Although many of them have names, most people refer to the store itself as
 their destination. I'm going to ___shop

 They would never, ever, ever say I'm going to the mall for any of my
 shopping centre examples - but that would be the common term for referring
 to a large mall. They would also refer to the mall by name - I love going
 to Hanyu Aeon! - but almost never my def of a shopping_centre.

 Malls are a city-wide or regional shopping attraction, distinct from a
 local group of shops on the side of the road.

 If we want to keep these car centric, amenity free, roadside shopping
 areas (whatever you want to call them) just in landuse=retail, and kill
 off shopping_centre, that's fine.  But the definition of mall needs to
 narrowed a bit to avoid this confusion.

 Even though there is a couple satellite shops in a retail anchor store's
 space - anything with a couple shops inside is in no way a mall. Most
 really large supermarkets have small rental spots for a bank, florist,
 coffee  shop,, dry cleaner, or a donut shop. But 3 little stores doesn't
 make it a mall.  A mall is a big, special place.

 Javbw


 On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 8:22 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:



 On Oct 21, 2014, at 9:54 PM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote:

 Your description of a mall as an enclosed place makes sense to me, but
 where I live they seem to call anything a “mall”.

 Here is the Watchung Square Mall”:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258702838
 and the “Valley Mall”:  http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/256668041
 (both of those are really shopping centers, not malls)


 Yea. I tagged the local shopping centre here as a mall, because it has
 mall in the title . But I will be changing that.


 Anyway, I avoid the `shop=mall` and `shop=shopping_centre` completely.  I
 usually tag `landuse=retail` for the area and `building=retail` for the
 buildings.


 Me too, until realizing we have both these these tags. I love landuse=*so
 much.


 IMO, `shop=*` should really just be for a single shop.


 Yea - the mall seems more like retail=* sub tag stuff,if one exists.

 Javbw.





 On Oct 21, 2014, at 7:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily
 a closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor
 connectivity. They appear to be similar as they both have several
 independent shops and collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe
 a mall has to have restaurants and other eating facilities, while a
 shopping center doesn't have to (but could have). I think small sets of
 shops with collective parking won't qualify as mall but they might
 constitute a shopping center.
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Volker Schmidt
Paul,

according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall your first two examples are
malls, the third one would not be a mall.

Volker

On 21 October 2014 07:57, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 I'm thinking this is a shopping mall
 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Eaton_Centre_HDR_style.jpg,
 and this is a shopping center
 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Strip_Mall_Troy.jpg.
 Not to be confused with a mall http://i.imgur.com/MDVBYKF.jpg.

 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Matthijs Melissen 
 i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote:

 Dear all,

 We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical,
 meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182
 instances).

 Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate
 shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall?

 -- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread johnw
Isn't shopping centre a collection of disparate stores grouped together for 
connivence (same parking lot), whereas a mall is a singular large (or several 
large) buildings full of little shops, primarily accessed by a pedestrian 
Thoroughfare in the center? 

To me the defining characteristic is pedestrian centric shopping or not. Both 
can be named places (separate from the shops), but only the mall is some place 
where you get out and enter the mall and walk around to see the shops, 
whereas the shopping centre presents it's choices (and access) from the 
street/parking lot - similar but bigger than a stripmall. The collection of 
two or three big box stores and a few smaller stores is in no way a mall - but 
it often is a named place.  These dominate the arterial roads in California.

http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=la%20mesa%20ca#map=16/32.7773/-117.0096

There is Grossmont Center, a large mall on the north side of the freeway. The 
large (outdoor, in this case) pedestrian concourse in the centre where you walk 
to visit the stores makes it a mall. On the south side of the freeway, there 
are 3 (formerly 5) bigbox stores just plopped next to the road, all sharing the 
same parking amenity and lessor ( 8800 Grossmont Blvd, as the street number 
itself is the sign). To the north of the mall between fletcher parkway and the 
train line,  there is a collection of shops primarily accessed by cars. Named 
Grossmont Trolley Center.  There is a smaller, yet still distinctly named 
collection of stores on the frontage road on the other side of Parkway Plaza 
(still further north), all the shops accessed by the parking lot - Grossmont 
Center North - which again is a single place - but a shopping centre (to me). 
I put a simple point tag on them so it is easy to find on OSM.  These smaller, 
local Shopping Centres are in no way, shape or form a mall - but they are not 
just stores along a street. To me, that defines a Shopping centre.

A LOT of these are untagged - Probably many times more than malls currently 
tagged. These are properly named collections of shops togehter that are not a 
mall - and shouldn't be labeled as a mall (which draw people from far away, vs 
the shopping centre which does not). I can name all of the malls in San Diego 
on one hand, but there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of these shopping 
centres just in San Deigo - and their names are known only to the locals of the 
area.  It's easy to tag the malls, because most everyone of the 2-3 million 
people know of the 10 or so malls we have, but very few of those people know of 
these smaller shopping centres - so they remain untagged. Same goes for my 
local area in Japan, but there are MUCH less named shopping centres here than 
in San Diego. Maybe that is why there is such a big discrepancy in their 
tagging numbers - it might be a modern suburban thing that is not reflected 
well in the tagging that has been competed so far. 

Baybe I'm confused or unaware of other tags, but that is how I see the 
difference. 

On Oct 21, 2014, at 9:00 AM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote:

 Dear all,
 
 We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical,
 meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182
 instances).
 
 Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate
 shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall?
 
 -- Matthijs
 
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread johnw
The second is in no way, shape or form, a mall, in the modern usage of Mall' 
to define a shopping plaza destination.  The word mall can also define a 
pedestrian walkway with shops, But the singular noun of Mall - meaning a 
large pedestrian centric shopping plaza - is very different than 5 shops 
sharing a parking lot. 

check the reply I was just writing. 

if there currently is no discerning Paul's example #1 and #2, then we need to 
change the mall tag ASAP. Because that is totally mislabeling the stripmall / 
shopping_centre in example #2 - and really diluting the meaning of mall as it 
is commonly used in California and Japan.

javbw


On Oct 21, 2014, at 4:00 PM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Paul,
 
 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall your first two examples are 
 malls, the third one would not be a mall.
 
 Volker
 
 On 21 October 2014 07:57, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 I'm thinking this is a shopping mall, and this is a shopping center.  Not to 
 be confused with a mall.
 
 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl 
 wrote:
 Dear all,
 
 We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical,
 meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182
 instances).
 
 Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate
 shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall?
 
 -- Matthijs
 
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Paul Johnson
The third is functionally an esplanade (far, far more people walk it than
drive it), and it's official name is the Portland Mall.  Originally it only
had bus lanes on it, but Portland being too cheap to install bus traps and
not exactly having the most rigorous enforcement decided to add a third
lane about six years ago for through and left turning cars as well to
prevent interfering with transit service.

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:00 AM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Paul,

 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall your first two examples
 are malls, the third one would not be a mall.

 Volker

 On 21 October 2014 07:57, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 I'm thinking this is a shopping mall
 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Eaton_Centre_HDR_style.jpg,
 and this is a shopping center
 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Strip_Mall_Troy.jpg.
 Not to be confused with a mall http://i.imgur.com/MDVBYKF.jpg.

 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Matthijs Melissen 
 i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote:

 Dear all,

 We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical,
 meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182
 instances).

 Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate
 shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall?

 -- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Brad Neuhauser
I agree with Matthjis--I don't see much of a clearly defined and widely
agreed on difference between the two. Given that, and the small usage of
shopping_centre, I agree with should deprecate shopping_centre.

Cheers, Brad

On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 4:43 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 The third is functionally an esplanade (far, far more people walk it than
 drive it), and it's official name is the Portland Mall.  Originally it only
 had bus lanes on it, but Portland being too cheap to install bus traps and
 not exactly having the most rigorous enforcement decided to add a third
 lane about six years ago for through and left turning cars as well to
 prevent interfering with transit service.

 On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:00 AM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Paul,

 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall your first two examples
 are malls, the third one would not be a mall.

 Volker

 On 21 October 2014 07:57, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:

 I'm thinking this is a shopping mall
 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Eaton_Centre_HDR_style.jpg,
 and this is a shopping center
 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Strip_Mall_Troy.jpg.
 Not to be confused with a mall http://i.imgur.com/MDVBYKF.jpg.

 On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Matthijs Melissen 
 i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote:

 Dear all,

 We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical,
 meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182
 instances).

 Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate
 shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall?

 -- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a
closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity.
They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and
collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have
restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't
have to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective
parking won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center.
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread johnw



On Oct 21, 2014, at 8:21 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

 
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 To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a 
 closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity.

Pedestrian centric promenade surrounded by shops is a mall.  car parking 
centric access, with shops adjacent to parking is a Shopping Centre.

 They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and 
 collective facilities like toilets and parking.

Shopping centres almost never have any shared amenities at all. The shops 
themselves provide everything inside, especially toilets. 
The Shopping Centre's defining feature is shared parking with adjacent shops.  
Every example I used before and will use next has no public toilets whatsoever.

 Maybe a mall has to have restaurants and other eating facilities, while a 
 shopping center doesn't have to (but could have).

A shopping centre may have a lot of fast food, but it will never be or have a 
food court (at least in the US and Japan).  There are no drive-through food 
courts. I can't park my car in front of the individual shops in a food court. 

A mall has a designated, self-contained section full of various fast food with 
shared seating and amenities for the pedestrian visitors to the mall. 

  I think small sets of shops with collective parking won't qualify as mall 
 but they might constitute a shopping center.

Yep. 

Shopping Centres can be big - it's all about car centric access to each 
individual shop. 

https://goo.gl/maps/O0BXI - roadside shopping centre
https://goo.gl/maps/3b98e  - two shopping centres near a freeway exit. 
https://goo.gl/maps/cVLrw - a really large shopping centre

But Malls are massive - and most shops are accessed only through the center of 
the mall, by walking the center. 

https://goo.gl/maps/n0RqP   a single mall surrounded by 8 or 9 shopping_centres.

Everyone in San Deigo knows of that mall. Not everyone could name the stores or 
the shopping centres around it. Which is why we tag malls separately. 

https://goo.gl/maps/ofSO5 The Big Hanyu Aeon mall in Japan - surrounded by 
houses and rice fields. 

It has more shops than all 9 of the shopping centres in the above example put 
together - almost all accessed only from inside the mall. 
That is a Mall. 

That 6 shops in a row used as example #2  example in a earlier post isn't a 
mall whatsoever. 




- usually a shopping_centre rarely has _any_  shared amenities besides 
parking/access
- a mall would have shared facilities - bathrooms, security, 
lost  found, package wrapping services, and other shopper-centric services. 

Shopping_centres would usually have a shared front only, adjacent to parking 
(usually ringing it).
-  a Mall has a pedestrian exclusive area (indoor or outdoor)  
surrounded by shops, completely separated from all other forms of access (no 
cars). 

Shopping_centres (almost) never have shared access between a individual stores 
- you always have to leave one store, returning to the shared footway to access 
the next.
  - a Mall has shared entrances between large anchor stores 
(entering a dept store and exiting into the center of the mall, for example) 

Shopping_centres have no designated areas beyond the stores.
- A mall has food courts, shared seating and meeting areas, 
stages, event areas. some even have attractions like a theme park (carousel, 
other kids rides)

Shopping centres are usually all 1 story (but can be very wide) Occaisionally 
there is a second floor (or mixed use commerical/residential, which is hard to 
tag right now) and only basic foot access - It's almost all car centric, or 
adjacent to some other source of existing traffic (station, university)
- A mall is primarily pedestrian based access to a majority of 
the shops, and often contain multilevel promenades, with elevators, escalators, 
and bridges connecting everything, either indoors or outdoors. 


OSM is missing tens of thousands of shopping_centres

Javbw



 elaborate systems of walkways and escalators connecting the pedestrian access 
to the other stores.  
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Bryan Housel
Your description of a mall as an enclosed place makes sense to me, but where I 
live they seem to call anything a “mall”.

Here is the Watchung Square Mall”: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258702838 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258702838
and the “Valley Mall”:  http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/256668041 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/256668041
(both of those are really shopping centers, not malls)

Anyway, I avoid the `shop=mall` and `shop=shopping_centre` completely.  I 
usually tag `landuse=retail` for the area and `building=retail` for the 
buildings.

IMO, `shop=*` should really just be for a single shop.




 On Oct 21, 2014, at 7:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
 To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a 
 closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity. 
 They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and 
 collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have 
 restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't have 
 to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective parking 
 won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center.
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread John Willis


 On Oct 21, 2014, at 9:54 PM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote:
 
 Your description of a mall as an enclosed place makes sense to me, but where 
 I live they seem to call anything a “mall”.
 
 Here is the Watchung Square Mall”: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258702838
 and the “Valley Mall”:  http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/256668041
 (both of those are really shopping centers, not malls)

Yea. I tagged the local shopping centre here as a mall, because it has mall in 
the title . But I will be changing that. 
 
 Anyway, I avoid the `shop=mall` and `shop=shopping_centre` completely.  I 
 usually tag `landuse=retail` for the area and `building=retail` for the 
 buildings.

Me too, until realizing we have both these these tags. I love landuse=*so much. 
 
 IMO, `shop=*` should really just be for a single shop.

Yea - the mall seems more like retail=* sub tag stuff,if one exists. 

Javbw. 
 
 
 
 
 On Oct 21, 2014, at 7:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
 To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a 
 closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity. 
 They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and 
 collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have 
 restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't 
 have to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective 
 parking won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center.
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Jerry Clough - OSM
A few points:

* OSM standard is British English. Shopping Centre is standard British 
English for an enclosed pedestrian space with lots of shops. Historically these 
have been covered, but this is changing to a simulated street environment (in 
UK Liverpool One the Arc at Bury St Edmunds are recent examples.
* Use of the shop tag is inherently problematic. These are not shops 
but retail areas. At the moment whenever I do any kind of retail analytical 
query I have to do AND NOT IN (shop='mall'). I would prefer to use 
landuse=retail with retail=mall or retail=shopping centre etc. We certainly 
don't tag a centre of a village with a few shops as shop=village_centre.
* shop=mall is more widely used, and although predominantly US English 
is not likely to be a confusion which shopping centre obviously is from prior 
posts here. Some of the examples cited would be usually called Retail Park 
for what I think is typically called a strip mall in the US, and Shopping 
Precinct for a smaller pedestrian area, often with only minor weather 
protection for shoppers. The latter are dying on their feet in the UK as they 
cant compete with the Retail Park or have a poor selection of shops.
* I attempted to provide a fairly detailed typology of these various 
types of retail area in a blog post last summer (hopefully with some useful 
illustrations). However I think this could be expanded substantially especially 
with more examples from different countries. See also the typology used by a 
specialist Retail GIS Analytics company which features at the start of the 
blog. Some (largely those featuring the word Parade) may be very UK specific, 
but most are suitably general. There are also a couple of slides relating to 
the issue in my SotM-Baltics presentation (#10 in particular).
* I noticed whilst attending SotM-Baltics last summer that true 
shopping centres/malls are very common in the main towns in Latvia and Estonia. 
Presumably they are a favoured way of adding new retail premises. Unfortunately 
many of these have 3 or more shopping floors and are even harder to map than 2 
storey malls.
* The two main shopping centres in Nottingham have had all the retail 
outlets mapped. There are many issues as to the best way to map shopping 
centres/malls but it is clear that if one wants to be accurate about the 
provision of shops in a town it is essential that this is done. They are also 
difficult to map because most establishments are access=customers and do not 
allow photography. 
* I mapped an area E of Pittsburgh, PA which has a nice variety of 
different kinds of out-of-town retail areas (a mall, Monroeville Mall, several 
strip malls, smaller areas, numerous car dealers). Unfortunately we don't have 
active mappers in the area. If anyone can identify a similar location in the US 
where there are active mappers and useful pictures this would really help sort 
out the kind of typology we need.
I did start drafting a blog post on this very issue mentioning many of the 
points above, so it's probably time to finish it.

Cheers,

Jerry

 
  
 
 
 
 
 
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On Tuesday, 21 October 2014, 12:22, Martin Koppenhoefer 
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
  


To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a 
closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity. 
They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and 
collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have 
restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't have 
to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective parking won't 
qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center.


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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread ael
 To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a
 closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor connectivity.
 They appear to be similar as they both have several independent shops and
 collective facilities like toilets and parking. Maybe a mall has to have
 restaurants and other eating facilities, while a shopping center doesn't
 have to (but could have). I think small sets of shops with collective
 parking won't qualify as mall but they might constitute a shopping center.

Just a small interjection from a native British speaker. Shopping_centre
is the normal term. mall is rarely encountered.

That said, I appreciate the distinction in question, and not sure that I
have much constructive to say. But I do agree that shop= seems like the
wrong tag for an area or a building containing multiple shops. as
another post said, landuse=retail (or building=retail?) is surely far better.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-10-21 15:39 GMT+02:00 Jerry Clough - OSM sk53_...@yahoo.co.uk:


- Use of the shop tag is inherently problematic. These are not shops
but retail areas. At the moment whenever I do any kind of retail analytical
query I have to do AND NOT IN (shop='mall'). I would prefer to use
landuse=retail with retail=mall or retail=shopping centre etc. We certainly
don't tag a centre of a village with a few shops as shop=village_centre.



The centre of a village is much more than just shops, but that's another
discussion ;-)

I agree with you that shop=shopping_centre or mall is not a good tag,
unlike shop=department_store or supermarket, these are indeed entities
consisting of several shops. On the other hand, landuse doesn't seem a nice
tag to me neither, as it is about the use of land, an attribute. Yes,
landuse=retail and retail=mall will indicate that this land is used for a
mall, but I'd consider this an indirect way of stating: there must be some
shopping mall over there, rather than explicitly naming the feature (e.g.
amenity=shopping_centre would be a candidate), and I could also imagine
situations where several landuse objects together form one shopping mall or
centre (because they are interrupted in the middle by something else).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread Steve Doerr

On 21/10/2014 12:06, Brad Neuhauser wrote:
I agree with Matthjis--I don't see much of a clearly defined and 
widely agreed on difference between the two. Given that, and the small 
usage of shopping_centre, I agree with should deprecate shopping_centre.




Just chipping in to say that 'mall' is still considered a foreign word 
in Britain. The OED defines it thus:


'Chiefly N. Amer., Austral., and N.Z. A shopping precinct or street 
closed to vehicles; a large (usually covered) shopping centre'.


--
Steve

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-21 Thread John Willis


Sent from my iPad

 On Oct 21, 2014, at 10:45 PM, Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 I was also thinking that landuse=retail makes more sense than either mall or 
 shopping_centre. If you have a big building enclosing lots of shops, you can 
 tag it building=mall. 
 
 johnw, I understand the distinction you're making (I would call your 
 shopping_centre a strip mall, I think). But do you really hear people use 
 these terms without overlap? Do you have some evidence of this usage? For 
 example, in wikipedia, the page 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shopping_centres_in_the_United_Kingdom 
 distinguishes shopping centres (what you're defining as malls) from retail 
 parks (which you're defining as shopping centres).

A strip mall is usually much smaller. It doesn't have any anchor stores. 
Although many of them have names, most people refer to the store itself as 
their destination. I'm going to ___shop

They would never, ever, ever say I'm going to the mall for any of my shopping 
centre examples - but that would be the common term for referring to a large 
mall. They would also refer to the mall by name - I love going to Hanyu Aeon! 
- but almost never my def of a shopping_centre.

Malls are a city-wide or regional shopping attraction, distinct from a local 
group of shops on the side of the road. 

If we want to keep these car centric, amenity free, roadside shopping areas 
(whatever you want to call them) just in landuse=retail, and kill off 
shopping_centre, that's fine.  But the definition of mall needs to narrowed a 
bit to avoid this confusion.

Even though there is a couple satellite shops in a retail anchor store's space 
- anything with a couple shops inside is in no way a mall. Most really large 
supermarkets have small rental spots for a bank, florist, coffee  shop,, dry 
cleaner, or a donut shop. But 3 little stores doesn't make it a mall.  A mall 
is a big, special place. 

Javbw

 
 On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 8:22 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote:
 
 
 On Oct 21, 2014, at 9:54 PM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote:
 
 Your description of a mall as an enclosed place makes sense to me, but 
 where I live they seem to call anything a “mall”.
 
 Here is the Watchung Square Mall”: 
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/258702838
 and the “Valley Mall”:  http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/256668041
 (both of those are really shopping centers, not malls)
 
 Yea. I tagged the local shopping centre here as a mall, because it has mall 
 in the title . But I will be changing that. 
 
 Anyway, I avoid the `shop=mall` and `shop=shopping_centre` completely.  I 
 usually tag `landuse=retail` for the area and `building=retail` for the 
 buildings.
 
 Me too, until realizing we have both these these tags. I love landuse=*so 
 much. 
 
 IMO, `shop=*` should really just be for a single shop.
 
 Yea - the mall seems more like retail=* sub tag stuff,if one exists. 
 
 Javbw. 
 
 
 
 
 On Oct 21, 2014, at 7:21 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
 To me analyzing the given examples it seems as if a mall was necessarily a 
 closed place while a shopping center would/could have outdoor 
 connectivity. They appear to be similar as they both have several 
 independent shops and collective facilities like toilets and parking. 
 Maybe a mall has to have restaurants and other eating facilities, while a 
 shopping center doesn't have to (but could have). I think small sets of 
 shops with collective parking won't qualify as mall but they might 
 constitute a shopping center.
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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-20 Thread John F. Eldredge
At least in the USA, mall usually refers to a group of stores around a 
pedestrian-only courtyard, often with a common roof over both the stores and 
the courtyard space, and sharing a common parking lot. Shopping center usually 
refers to a linear or C-shaped group of stores, with a common parking area but 
no pedestrian courtyard.


On October 20, 2014 7:00:43 PM CDT, Matthijs Melissen 
i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote:
Dear all,

We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical,
meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182
instances).

Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate
shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Pre-RFC: shop=mall versus shop=shopping_centre

2014-10-20 Thread Paul Johnson
I'm thinking this is a shopping mall
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Eaton_Centre_HDR_style.jpg,
and this is a shopping center
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Strip_Mall_Troy.jpg.
Not to be confused with a mall http://i.imgur.com/MDVBYKF.jpg.

On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl
 wrote:

 Dear all,

 We have currently two tags with a closely related, if not identical,
 meaning: shop=mall (26 643 instances) and shop=shopping_centre (182
 instances).

 Is there a difference between these two tags, or should we deprecate
 shop=shopping_centre in favour of shop=mall?

 -- Matthijs

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