Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Made some changes to the proposal to delete reference to helicopters &
"rescue-related sites", which will probably both become their own
proposals, but your thoughts & comments are still welcome!

Thanks

Graeme


On Sun, 18 Dec 2022 at 10:55, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 17 Dec 2022 at 18:45, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> 17 gru 2022, 01:19 od graemefi...@gmail.com:
>>
>> The other issue with the currently mapped info is that most of it appears
>> to have come from an unauthorised source.
>>
>> Can you link problematic changeset?
>>
>
> Most appear to have been added as individual changes per station, but
> here's one of them:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/97506916#map=19/55.33612/-1.58176.
> Source for the UK stations is listed as:
> https://rnli.org/find-my-nearest?type=Lifeboat-Station, which has T:
> https://rnli.org/footer/terms-and-conditions, including a full section on
> IPRs, which includes such things as:
> * You are permitted to print and download extracts from our websites for
> your personal non-commercial use
> * No other use of material on our websites may be made without first
> obtaining our written permission. In particular, you must not do the
> following unless you have first obtained our written permission:-
> ** Incorporate any material from our websites in any other work or
> publication, whether in hard copy or electronic form; or
>
> ** Make any commercial use or publication of any material on our websites
>
> The same user mapped lifeboat locations all over Western Europe:
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1pbQ, with all of them having similar
> references e.g.
>
> Denmark:
> https://www.forsvaret.dk/da/opgaver/nationale-opgaver/eftersogning-og-redning/
> (Danish Ministry of Defence)
>
> France: https://station-gravelines.snsm.org/bateaux-de-sauvetage
>
> Poland: https://www.sar.gov.pl/pl/contact/ustka/
>
> Germany: https://www.seenotretter.de/crews-stationen/zingst
>
> The only one of these that I can find reference to copyright / IP is the
> French site, which includes:
>
> *Any reproduction, representation, modification, publication, adaptation
> of all or part of the elements of the site, whatever the means or process
> used, is prohibited, except with the prior written authorization of the
> National Society for Sea Rescue (SNSM).
>
> Thanks
> Graeme
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2022 at 18:45, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> 17 gru 2022, 01:19 od graemefi...@gmail.com:
>
> The other issue with the currently mapped info is that most of it appears
> to have come from an unauthorised source.
>
> Can you link problematic changeset?
>

Most appear to have been added as individual changes per station, but
here's one of them:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/97506916#map=19/55.33612/-1.58176.
Source for the UK stations is listed as:
https://rnli.org/find-my-nearest?type=Lifeboat-Station, which has T:
https://rnli.org/footer/terms-and-conditions, including a full section on
IPRs, which includes such things as:
* You are permitted to print and download extracts from our websites for
your personal non-commercial use
* No other use of material on our websites may be made without first
obtaining our written permission. In particular, you must not do the
following unless you have first obtained our written permission:-
** Incorporate any material from our websites in any other work or
publication, whether in hard copy or electronic form; or

** Make any commercial use or publication of any material on our websites

The same user mapped lifeboat locations all over Western Europe:
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1pbQ, with all of them having similar
references e.g.

Denmark:
https://www.forsvaret.dk/da/opgaver/nationale-opgaver/eftersogning-og-redning/
(Danish Ministry of Defence)

France: https://station-gravelines.snsm.org/bateaux-de-sauvetage

Poland: https://www.sar.gov.pl/pl/contact/ustka/

Germany: https://www.seenotretter.de/crews-stationen/zingst

The only one of these that I can find reference to copyright / IP is the
French site, which includes:

*Any reproduction, representation, modification, publication, adaptation of
all or part of the elements of the site, whatever the means or process
used, is prohibited, except with the prior written authorization of the
National Society for Sea Rescue (SNSM).

Thanks
Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

17 gru 2022, 01:19 od graemefi...@gmail.com:

>
>
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 at 17:55, Marc_marc <> marc_m...@mailo.com> > wrote:
>
>> Le 16.12.22 à 08:30, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :
>>
>>  > In this case amenity=lifeboat is - I expect - used to map lifeboat 
>>  > stationing place, not lifeboat itself
>>  
>>  of course, like marina doesn't map boats but the mooring area
>>
>
> Yes, that is how they are being used, but the tag is being completed with the 
> name & details of the lifeboat itself, which, to me at least, infers that 
> this boat is always at this spot, & it isn't.
>
> The other issue with the currently mapped info is that most of it appears to 
> have come from an unauthorised source.
>
Can you link problematic changeset? (if there is import from invalid source 
then 
contacting DWG is a good idea. Also, I hope that I am not writing this
to DWG member again)
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Further thoughts re air rescue, please.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/emergency%3Dlifeboat_station#Air_rescue

Thanks

Graeme


On Sat, 17 Dec 2022 at 11:05, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Possibly combine all existing tags under a new top tag
> emergency=water_rescue?
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/emergency%3Dlifeboat_station#Replace_emergency=lifeboat_station_with_emergency=water_rescue
>
> Thoughts & comments please?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

 Possibly combine all existing tags under a new top tag
emergency=water_rescue?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/emergency%3Dlifeboat_station#Replace_emergency=lifeboat_station_with_emergency=water_rescue

Thoughts & comments please?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 at 17:55, Marc_marc  wrote:

> Le 16.12.22 à 08:30, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :
>
> > In this case amenity=lifeboat is - I expect - used to map lifeboat
> > stationing place, not lifeboat itself
>
> of course, like marina doesn't map boats but the mooring area
>

Yes, that is how they are being used, but the tag is being completed with
the name & details of the lifeboat itself, which, to me at least, infers
that this boat is always at this spot, & it isn't.

The other issue with the currently mapped info is that most of it appears
to have come from an unauthorised source.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Marc_marc]

Le 16.12.22 à 08:30, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging a écrit :




16 gru 2022, 02:51 od graemefi...@gmail.com:


On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 at 10:59, Andy Townsend mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com>> wrote:

doesn't explain why "amenity=lifeboat" is "deprecated".  Like it
or not, this is used exactly how you'd expect:

https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#20/54.48811/-0.61310 



But as I've pointed out a couple of times before, by policy, OSM
doesn't map mobile items

e.g https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building=houseboat


" Houseboats that are moving are not mappable in OSM"

Yes, that (totally undocumented & undiscussed) tag could be either
written up to specify it's the location where a lifeboat is moored,
or it could be changed to amenity=lifeboat_mooring, but, is it
verifiable? Can anybody walk up to that spot 24/7/365 & say Ah yes,
that's the /George//& Mary Webb/? Sorry, but no they can't, as it
may be elsewhere at that moment.

In this case amenity=lifeboat is - I expect - used to map lifeboat 
stationing place, not lifeboat itself


of course, like marina doesn't map boats but the mooring area




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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

16 gru 2022, 02:51 od graemefi...@gmail.com:

>
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 at 10:59, Andy Townsend <> ajt1...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>> doesn't explain why "amenity=lifeboat" is "deprecated".  Like it  or 
>> not, this is used exactly how you'd expect:
>>  
>>
>> https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#20/54.48811/-0.61310
>>
>>
>
> But as I've pointed out a couple of times before, by policy, OSM doesn't map 
> mobile items
>
> e.g > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building=houseboat
>
> "Houseboats that are moving are not mappable in OSM"
>
> Yes, that (totally undocumented & undiscussed) tag could be either written up 
> to specify it's the location where a lifeboat is moored, or it could be 
> changed to amenity=lifeboat_mooring, but, is it verifiable? Can anybody walk 
> up to that spot 24/7/365 & say Ah yes, that's the > George>  & Mary Webb> ? 
> Sorry, but no they can't, as it may be elsewhere at that moment.
>
In this case amenity=lifeboat is - I expect - used to map lifeboat stationing 
place, not
lifeboat itself (it may or may be confusing enough that new tag us useful).
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 at 12:15, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> Most of the time, yes they can* - 8000 launches per year between 400
> lifeboats is on average 20 per year.  If we take a guess at 8 hours per
> launch, it's there 98% of the time.
>
By those numbers, yep, perfectly correct!

But those 8000 launches are for actual rescue call-outs - they don't
include the boat/s going out for training, PR jobs etc or being away from
Base for servicing & so on.

& if the Unit has two boats, which side of the jetty are they each moored
at today?

e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=18/36.95504/-76.32943 (Bing) -
so can we stick a pin on the north side of Pier 11 & mark that as the *Gerald
R Ford*?; https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=17/36.95551/-76.32857
(Esri) - Ooh, maybe not?; but then again
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=18/36.95551/-76.32993 (Esri Clarity)
- well, the *Harry S Truman* is a *Nimitz* class rather than a *Ford*, but
that's close enough, isn't it?

I have to keep saying the same thing - boats are mobile objects, & as such,
shouldn't be mapped.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Andy Townsend]

On 16/12/2022 01:51, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:





On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 at 10:59, Andy Townsend  wrote:

doesn't explain why "amenity=lifeboat" is "deprecated".  Like it
or not, this is used exactly how you'd expect:

https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#20/54.48811/-0.61310

But as I've pointed out a couple of times before, by policy, OSM 
doesn't map mobile items


... and that discussion veered off (on IRC) into "things that can move 
but usually don't" as I recall.



Yes, that (totally undocumented & undiscussed) tag could be either 
written up to specify it's the location where a lifeboat is moored, or 
it could be changed to amenity=lifeboat_mooring, but, is it 
verifiable? Can anybody walk up to that spot 24/7/365 & say Ah yes, 
that's the /George//& Mary Webb/? Sorry, but no they can't, as it may 
be elsewhere at that moment.


Most of the time, yes they can* - 8000 launches per year between 400 
lifeboats is on average 20 per year.  If we take a guess at 8 hours per 
launch, it's there 98% of the time.


Best Regards,

Andy


* source 
https://rnli.org/what-we-do/lifeboats-and-stations/our-lifeboat-fleet 
and 
https://rnli.org/what-we-do/lifeboats-and-stations/latest-lifeboat-launches


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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2022 at 10:59, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> doesn't explain why "amenity=lifeboat" is "deprecated".  Like it or not,
> this is used exactly how you'd expect:
>
> https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#20/54.48811/-0.61310
>
But as I've pointed out a couple of times before, by policy, OSM doesn't
map mobile items

e.g https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building=houseboat

" Houseboats that are moving are not mappable in OSM"

Yes, that (totally undocumented & undiscussed) tag could be either written
up to specify it's the location where a lifeboat is moored, or it could be
changed to amenity=lifeboat_mooring, but, is it verifiable? Can anybody
walk up to that spot 24/7/365 & say Ah yes, that's the *George** & Mary
Webb*? Sorry, but no they can't, as it may be elsewhere at that moment.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Andy Townsend]

On 15/12/2022 23:34, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


& it's also a shame that they couldn't have been mentioned as 
unresolved when I said twice that it was ready to go to voting!



I think that any "reading of the room" yesterday (when it was moved to 
voting) would suggest that the issues raised 6/12 on the mailing list 
hadn't really been resolved.


The answer to "what are we mapping" of "The land-based location of 
emergency groups dedicated to the saving of lives at sea" doesn't 
explain why "amenity=lifeboat" is "deprecated".  Like it or not, this is 
used exactly how you'd expect:


https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#20/54.48811/-0.61310

I actually only added that rendering when I discovered that the data was 
there, because of this proposal, but given that it /is /there any 
attempt to deprecate it without a replacement is going to get a no from me.


Best Regards,

Andy

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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Voting cancelled to discuss issues.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 at 23:53, Marc_marc  wrote:

>
> it's a shame to have gone to the vote without resolving the 5 issues raised
>

& it's also a shame that they couldn't have been mentioned as unresolved
when I said twice that it was ready to go to voting!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Marc_marc]

Le 15.12.22 à 04:25, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
No further comments or discussion so moved to voting: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/emergency%3Dlifeboat_station#Voting 


it's a shame to have gone to the vote without resolving the 5 issues raised



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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

No further comments or discussion so moved to voting:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/emergency%3Dlifeboat_station#Voting

Thanks

Graeme


On Mon, 12 Dec 2022 at 12:59, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> I've made a minor change to the format of the possible tags to include.
>
> If there are no more comments, I'll move to voting in the next day or two.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 at 00:33, Marc_marc  wrote:
>
>> Le 07.12.22 à 07:31, Warin a écrit :
>> >
>> > On 7/12/22 01:54, Marc_marc wrote:
>> >> Le 06.12.22 à 00:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
>> >>>
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2022-November/066540.html
>> >>>
>> >>> Are there any further comments that anybody would like to raise?
>> >>
>> >> I have not issue with merging 3-4 tags with the same meaning but :
>> >>
>> >> - what are we mapping ? reading the description, this seems to be more
>> >> of a landuse=ermergency than mapping an emergency service i.e. where
>> >> you can go to get a service
>> >
>> > Similar comments can be made for fire stations and ambulances - you
>> call
>> > them up for them to come to you. As these are already accepted by the
>> > community I see no reason to exclude this case.
>>
>> for the 2 fire stations I know, you can/must go there
>> for advice or a fireman's pre-notice about a new building.
>> It is very different from a technical room or an office closed
>> to the public.
>> Will we also tag office+parking with emergency=defibrillator for the
>> office of the compagny dealing with maintenance or telephone support for
>> defribilators? this seems inconsistent to me
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I've made a minor change to the format of the possible tags to include.

If there are no more comments, I'll move to voting in the next day or two.

Thanks

Graeme


On Thu, 8 Dec 2022 at 00:33, Marc_marc  wrote:

> Le 07.12.22 à 07:31, Warin a écrit :
> >
> > On 7/12/22 01:54, Marc_marc wrote:
> >> Le 06.12.22 à 00:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
> >>>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2022-November/066540.html
> >>>
> >>> Are there any further comments that anybody would like to raise?
> >>
> >> I have not issue with merging 3-4 tags with the same meaning but :
> >>
> >> - what are we mapping ? reading the description, this seems to be more
> >> of a landuse=ermergency than mapping an emergency service i.e. where
> >> you can go to get a service
> >
> > Similar comments can be made for fire stations and ambulances - you call
> > them up for them to come to you. As these are already accepted by the
> > community I see no reason to exclude this case.
>
> for the 2 fire stations I know, you can/must go there
> for advice or a fireman's pre-notice about a new building.
> It is very different from a technical room or an office closed
> to the public.
> Will we also tag office+parking with emergency=defibrillator for the
> office of the compagny dealing with maintenance or telephone support for
> defribilators? this seems inconsistent to me
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Marc_marc]

Le 07.12.22 à 07:31, Warin a écrit :


On 7/12/22 01:54, Marc_marc wrote:

Le 06.12.22 à 00:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2022-November/066540.html

Are there any further comments that anybody would like to raise?


I have not issue with merging 3-4 tags with the same meaning but :

- what are we mapping ? reading the description, this seems to be more 
of a landuse=ermergency than mapping an emergency service i.e. where

you can go to get a service


Similar comments can be made for fire stations and ambulances - you call 
them up for them to come to you. As these are already accepted by the 
community I see no reason to exclude this case.


for the 2 fire stations I know, you can/must go there
for advice or a fireman's pre-notice about a new building.
It is very different from a technical room or an office closed
to the public.
Will we also tag office+parking with emergency=defibrillator for the 
office of the compagny dealing with maintenance or telephone support for 
defribilators? this seems inconsistent to me




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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Warin]

On 6/12/22 21:51, Tom Pfeifer wrote:

Still does not resolve my problem with a water rescue station where there is no 
boat.



I don't see a requirement for a boat? 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dlifeboat_station


Specifically mentions other things like helicopters.




Before people ask again how that is possible - they might have their boats 
mooring at changing
locations without a station, but the station is not directly at one of the 
rivers/lakes.

tom

On 06.12.2022 00:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

Bringing this forward to the new month.

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2022-November/066540.html


Are there any further comments that anybody would like to raise?

To sum-up, proposal is to:
Approve emergency=lifeboat_station
Deprecate emergency=marine_rescue & merge it's usages into =lifeboat_station
Deprecate amenity= lifeboat_station & merge it's usages into 
emergency=lifeboat_station
Remove incorrect tagging of amenity=lifeboat, currently being used to show the 
location that
lifeboats are moored at.

If there's nothing further, then I'll move it to voting over the next few days.

Thanks

Graeme

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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Warin]

On 7/12/22 01:54, Marc_marc wrote:

Le 06.12.22 à 00:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2022-November/066540.html 



Are there any further comments that anybody would like to raise?


I have not issue with merging 3-4 tags with the same meaning but :

- what are we mapping ? reading the description, this seems to be more 
of a landuse=ermergency than mapping an emergency service i.e. where

you can go to get a service


Similar comments can be made for fire stations and ambulances - you call 
them up for them to come to you. As these are already accepted by the 
community I see no reason to exclude this case.




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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 7 Dec 2022 at 00:57, Marc_marc  wrote:

>
> - what are we mapping ? reading the description, this seems to be more
> of a landuse=ermergency than mapping an emergency service i.e. where
> you can go to get a service
>

The land-based location of emergency groups dedicated to the saving of
lives at sea.

I would not map a coordinating & controlling for doctors under
> emergency=* and so don't see a logic to map full "office only" place
> with a emergency=*
>

When you say "office only", do you mean observation / communication centres
such as https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/63985402? Yes, as discussed on
the talk page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/emergency%3Dlifeboat_station#Use_on_Rescue-related_sites,
emergency=coastguard may be the best option for them, but that would
require further work on that tag, to ensure no confusion between military &
rescue-only Coastguards.

- proposing lifeboat_station for a helicopter rescue base seems
> to me a bad idea. a more generic tag without "boat" seems better.
> maybe rescue station (and it would be very logical to have the same
> term as seamark)
> otherwise another tag will naturally be created for those area
> where the proposed tag is counter-intuitive
>

I can't argue with you there, but when you look at
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/coastguard-search-and-rescue-helicopter-programme
&
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-contract-uses-the-latest-technology-for-search-and-rescue,
what do you call those bases?

- should we vote on the meaning of "Deprecated" for this particular
> proposal? and thus expose ourselves to having proposals with a different
> meaning? it seems to me that it would be better to take this content out
> of the proposal, this is not what we are voting on, instead a link to a
> page describing this meaning would be ideal
>

Sorry, you've got me a bit confused there? If we say that "this" is the tag
we're going to use, then the other , basically identical, tags should be
deprecated to reduce their use, especially when the same POI is tagged with
multiple tags, all meaning the same thing e.g. emergency=lifeboat_station &
amenity=lifeboat_station together

- are we voting also for all "Tags used in combination" ?
>

Maybe that should be marked as Possible tags to use in combination? Most
people probably wouldn't know enough about the activities of any particular
unit to use all of them, unless they were a member of that unit.


> the seamark mess (including duplicate and :type meaningless) would lead
> me to automatically vote no to a proposal that would try to include them
> in something else without reason
>

What is the problem with including "seamark" tags?


> - what's a lifeboat:class ?


e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn-class_lifeboat

- The various seamark categories *should* be included
> sorry I disagree. it may, it not mandatory and perfectly valid/usefull
> to create a object without these tags (especially those which
> are only repetition of other osm tags), the next contributor has
> the opportunity to add to the first contribution
>

As above, they "could" all be included if known. Working on
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Seamarks/Radio_Stations, " The tags
defined on this page will render in various nautical charts", I would have
thought that any information we can add would / could be valuable to other
users?

- lifeboat = offshore / inshore : the description is not clear


Sorry, dropped into technical talk! That refers to where the lifeboats is
intended to operate. Inshore is intended to operate within 5nm of the
coast, while offshore (also called All-weather) boats are deep-water craft,
up to 50nm out to sea.

if it informs the place of intervention of the boats (the stations of Lake
> Geneva are inshore despite of its size) or the extent of the coverage:
> a rescue station probably would be preferable to have a more generic
> tag, more thoughtful so that it can be applied to non-water rescue.
> something describing the extent (maybe scope)
>

Sorry, don't understand what you're getting at there?


> if not, does emergency=marine_rescue implie lifeboat=offshore or
> not always ?
>

Not always. Some units would have one have one class of boat, some the
other, & some units would be equipped with both to use as required

- Remove incorrect tagging of amenity=lifeboat, currently being used
> to show the location that lifeboats are moored at.
> ok, but list the correct tag
>

What's the correct tag to map a mobile feature i.e. a boat? We could change
this to lifeboat-mooring or similar, but that still doesn't get around the
problem of whether the boat is moored on this side of the jetty or that
side; or is it moored on the buoy in the harbour today?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 6 Dec 2022 at 20:54, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

> Still does not resolve my problem with a water rescue station where there
> is no boat.
>
> Before people ask again how that is possible - they might have their boats
> mooring at changing
> locations without a station, but the station is not directly at one of the
> rivers/lakes.
>

As mentioned in the proposal, where you have the situation that the unit's
admin / radio room / crew quarters are in one location, but their boat is
housed / moored at a different spot eg https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1oKr,
the same tag can be used on both locations.

Thanks

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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Marc_marc]

Le 06.12.22 à 00:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick a écrit :

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2022-November/066540.html

Are there any further comments that anybody would like to raise?


I have not issue with merging 3-4 tags with the same meaning but :

- what are we mapping ? reading the description, this seems to be more 
of a landuse=ermergency than mapping an emergency service i.e. where

you can go to get a service
I would not map a coordinating & controlling for doctors under 
emergency=* and so don't see a logic to map full "office only" place 
with a emergency=*


- proposing lifeboat_station for a helicopter rescue base seems
to me a bad idea. a more generic tag without "boat" seems better.
maybe rescue station (and it would be very logical to have the same
term as seamark)
otherwise another tag will naturally be created for those area
where the proposed tag is counter-intuitive

- should we vote on the meaning of "Deprecated" for this particular 
proposal? and thus expose ourselves to having proposals with a different 
meaning? it seems to me that it would be better to take this content out 
of the proposal, this is not what we are voting on, instead a link to a 
page describing this meaning would be ideal


- are we voting also for all "Tags used in combination" ?
the seamark mess (including duplicate and :type meaningless) would lead 
me to automatically vote no to a proposal that would try to include them 
in something else without reason


- what's a lifeboat:class ? it would be a good idea to describe it 
better or to take it out of the proposal and postpone it to a next time 
(this does not prevent to have it on the wiki page of the tag, without 
the approved status and thus likely to be improved easily)


- The various seamark categories *should* be included
sorry I disagree. it may, it not mandatory and perfectly valid/usefull
to create a object without these tags (especially those which
are only repetition of other osm tags), the next contributor has
the opportunity to add to the first contribution

- lifeboat = offshore / inshore : the description is not clear if it 
informs the place of intervention of the boats (the stations of Lake 
Geneva are inshore despite of its size) or the extent of the coverage:
a rescue station probably would be preferable to have a more generic 
tag, more thoughtful so that it can be applied to non-water rescue. 
something describing the extent (maybe scope)

if not, does emergency=marine_rescue implie lifeboat=offshore or
not always ?

- Remove incorrect tagging of amenity=lifeboat, currently being used
to show the location that lifeboats are moored at.
ok, but list the correct tag

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Tom Pfeifer]

Still does not resolve my problem with a water rescue station where there is no 
boat.

Before people ask again how that is possible - they might have their boats 
mooring at changing
locations without a station, but the station is not directly at one of the 
rivers/lakes.

tom

On 06.12.2022 00:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> Bringing this forward to the new month.
> 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2022-November/066540.html
> 
> 
> Are there any further comments that anybody would like to raise?
> 
> To sum-up, proposal is to:
> Approve emergency=lifeboat_station
> Deprecate emergency=marine_rescue & merge it's usages into =lifeboat_station
> Deprecate amenity= lifeboat_station & merge it's usages into 
> emergency=lifeboat_station
> Remove incorrect tagging of amenity=lifeboat, currently being used to show 
> the location that
> lifeboats are moored at.
> 
> If there's nothing further, then I'll move it to voting over the next few 
> days.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme
> 
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Mapping standard location of lifeboat mooring or
lifeboat station location seems entirely fine.

(I am person who added this claim to wiki
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:building%3Dhouseboat=1931553=1797928
)

27 lis 2022, 02:03 od graemefi...@gmail.com:

> In regard to mapping the location of a lifeboat, just noticed this: > 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=6952187784#map=19/53.09914/5.94569
>
> & the wiki for houseboats > 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building=houseboat> , states 
> "Houseboats that are moving are not mappable in OSM".
>
> I think the same would apply to lifeboats, except even more so!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

In regard to mapping the location of a lifeboat, just noticed this:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?node=6952187784#map=19/53.09914/5.94569

& the wiki for houseboats
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building=houseboat, states "
Houseboats that are moving are not mappable in OSM".

I think the same would apply to lifeboats, except even more so!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Further suggestion to combine all water-rescue activities under
emergency=water_rescue as an effective top tag:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/emergency%3Dlifeboat_station#Another_option:_emergency=water_rescue

Thanks

Graeme


On Fri, 25 Nov 2022 at 12:01, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Discussions on the Talk page mentioned groups such as these
> https://wsart.org.uk/, who assist Emergency Services (Police, Fire &
> Ambulance) with water search & rescue.
>
> Have mentioned them in the proposal as emergency_service=water
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Fri, 25 Nov 2022 at 09:35, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 19:05, Jez Nicholson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> When the lifeboat is permanently moored at a particular location it is
>>> less transitory than a busso people can and do tag them. Not me
>>> necessarily, but other mappers.
>>>
>>
>> True, but can you guarantee that I can walk up to that spot "right now" &
>> see that lifeboat moored there?
>>
>> No, as it could be out in use or away being serviced, if there are
>> multiple vessels at any station, their locations could swap around, or
>> there could be a visiting vessel moored there.
>>
>> So, my request that amenity=lifeboat be removed from the proposal's list
>>> of incorrect tags as it is *not* a lifeboat station.
>>>
>>
>> No, it's a mobile feature, and I thought it was an OSM axiom that we
>> don't map mobile features?
>>
>>
>>> but they are low in number.
>>>
>>
>> It would appear that most of them, ~200, appeared in one go, possibly as
>> an import "almost two years ago", which I certainly don't remember being
>> discussed at all at the time?
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/lifeboat#chronology e.g.
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4113966536.
>>
>> That makes reference to a source of https://rnli.org/find-my-nearest.
>> But when you look at it's T, particularly the IPRs,
>> https://rnli.org/footer/terms-and-conditions, it would appear highly
>> unlikely that we are actually allowed to make use of it as a source :-(
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Discussions on the Talk page mentioned groups such as these
https://wsart.org.uk/, who assist Emergency Services (Police, Fire &
Ambulance) with water search & rescue.

Have mentioned them in the proposal as emergency_service=water

Thanks

Graeme


On Fri, 25 Nov 2022 at 09:35, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 19:05, Jez Nicholson 
> wrote:
>
>> When the lifeboat is permanently moored at a particular location it is
>> less transitory than a busso people can and do tag them. Not me
>> necessarily, but other mappers.
>>
>
> True, but can you guarantee that I can walk up to that spot "right now" &
> see that lifeboat moored there?
>
> No, as it could be out in use or away being serviced, if there are
> multiple vessels at any station, their locations could swap around, or
> there could be a visiting vessel moored there.
>
> So, my request that amenity=lifeboat be removed from the proposal's list
>> of incorrect tags as it is *not* a lifeboat station.
>>
>
> No, it's a mobile feature, and I thought it was an OSM axiom that we don't
> map mobile features?
>
>
>> but they are low in number.
>>
>
> It would appear that most of them, ~200, appeared in one go, possibly as
> an import "almost two years ago", which I certainly don't remember being
> discussed at all at the time?
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/lifeboat#chronology e.g.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4113966536.
>
> That makes reference to a source of https://rnli.org/find-my-nearest. But
> when you look at it's T, particularly the IPRs,
> https://rnli.org/footer/terms-and-conditions, it would appear highly
> unlikely that we are actually allowed to make use of it as a source :-(
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 19:05, Jez Nicholson  wrote:

> When the lifeboat is permanently moored at a particular location it is
> less transitory than a busso people can and do tag them. Not me
> necessarily, but other mappers.
>

True, but can you guarantee that I can walk up to that spot "right now" &
see that lifeboat moored there?

No, as it could be out in use or away being serviced, if there are multiple
vessels at any station, their locations could swap around, or there could
be a visiting vessel moored there.

So, my request that amenity=lifeboat be removed from the proposal's list of
> incorrect tags as it is *not* a lifeboat station.
>

No, it's a mobile feature, and I thought it was an OSM axiom that we don't
map mobile features?


> but they are low in number.
>

It would appear that most of them, ~200, appeared in one go, possibly as an
import "almost two years ago", which I certainly don't remember being
discussed at all at the time?
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/lifeboat#chronology e.g.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4113966536.

That makes reference to a source of https://rnli.org/find-my-nearest. But
when you look at it's T, particularly the IPRs,
https://rnli.org/footer/terms-and-conditions, it would appear highly
unlikely that we are actually allowed to make use of it as a source :-(

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 20:55, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Past discussion on burger vans etc lead to the understanding that if
> something was, for the majority of the time, found at a certain location
> then OSM should map it.
>
True, but part of the argument there was that the van had to be at this
location at those times e.g. Mo-Fr 08:00-14:00. An emergency vessel such as
a lifeboat may be there, or may not, depending on whether it's been called
out on a job.

> I expect the lifeboats do get more regular use, for things like training
> at least.
>
Training, & activations, can be at any time of the day or night.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 19:12, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Some ships and boats don't move much... as they are part of museums ...
>
 On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 20:55, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> HMS Belfast in London is mapped as building=ship, for all intents is it
> permanent (I'd expect it to be seldom away in a dry dock to get hull
> repairs).
>
In both cases, they should probably actually be tagged as museums, as they
are part of either the Australian Maritime Museum, or the Imperial War
Museum.

& tagging them as building=ship is really For The Renderer!

The classic example of this, of course, is
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=18/40.76472/-74.00060 (which used to
be building=ship, covered by lots of building=aircraft) It's now been
improved slightly but it's still wrong!

Thanks

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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Warin]

On 24/11/22 20:37, Nathan Case wrote:

On 24/11/2022 09:07, Warin wrote:

Some ships and boats don't move much... as they are part of museums ...


Something that is part of a museum, and is genuinely permanently 
secured, seems very different to an emergency response vehicle (which 
a lifeboat is for all intents and purposes). I'd map planes at an air 
and space museum but not ones at an airport terminal.


I guess the trouble with lifeboats is that they can be stored on land 
or they can be kept moored in the water. So it isn't quite as easy as 
saying "map the building" as sometimes there won't be a building (for 
the lifeboat, there normally is a building for the crew to change in 
etc).




Past discussion on burger vans etc lead to the understanding that if 
something was, for the majority of the time, found at a certain location 
then OSM should map it.


HMS Belfast in London is mapped as building=ship, for all intents is it 
permanent (I'd expect it to be seldom away in a dry dock to get hull 
repairs). I have changed the Darling Harbor ships to reflect the London 
tagging.


I expect the lifeboats do get more regular use, for things like training 
at least.





On 24/11/2022 09:00, Jez Nicholson wrote:
When the lifeboat is permanently moored at a particular location it 
is less transitory than a busso people can and do tag them. Not 
me necessarily, but other mappers.


Being a little pedantic, a lifeboat that is "permanently moored" won't 
serve much use as a lifeboat. Being less pedantic, mapping the 
reserved mooring location could work, however, in that case, we should 
be tagging it as a mooring spot rather than as a lifeboat itself. The 
mooring location will remain even if the lifeboat is at sea.



Nathan


On 24/11/2022 09:07, Warin wrote:



On 24/11/22 11:25, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 09:29, Andy Townsend  wrote:


Why not both?

Because a boat is a mobile feature, that we don't / can't map?

e.g 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=349559642#map=19/-27.42815/153.08582 
- we don't try to map the last bus in the middle row as #632



Some ships and boats don't move much... as they are part of museums ...

Way: HMAS Onslow (166230547) - mapped as a 'ship' but it is a 
submarine and they are boats.


Way: HMAS Vampire (166230548)

 Tags:
    "historic"="ship"
    "name"="HMAS Vampire"
    "ref"="D11"
    "seamark:name"="HMAS Vampire"
    "ship:type"="destroyer"
    "start_date"="1956"
    "tourism"="attraction"
    "wikidata"="Q721087"
    "wikipedia"="en:HMAS Vampire (D11)"

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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Nathan Case]

On 24/11/2022 09:07, Warin wrote:

Some ships and boats don't move much... as they are part of museums ...


Something that is part of a museum, and is genuinely permanently 
secured, seems very different to an emergency response vehicle (which a 
lifeboat is for all intents and purposes). I'd map planes at an air and 
space museum but not ones at an airport terminal.


I guess the trouble with lifeboats is that they can be stored on land or 
they can be kept moored in the water. So it isn't quite as easy as 
saying "map the building" as sometimes there won't be a building (for 
the lifeboat, there normally is a building for the crew to change in etc).



On 24/11/2022 09:00, Jez Nicholson wrote:
When the lifeboat is permanently moored at a particular location it is 
less transitory than a busso people can and do tag them. Not me 
necessarily, but other mappers.


Being a little pedantic, a lifeboat that is "permanently moored" won't 
serve much use as a lifeboat. Being less pedantic, mapping the reserved 
mooring location could work, however, in that case, we should be tagging 
it as a mooring spot rather than as a lifeboat itself. The mooring 
location will remain even if the lifeboat is at sea.



Nathan


On 24/11/2022 09:07, Warin wrote:



On 24/11/22 11:25, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 09:29, Andy Townsend  wrote:


Why not both?

Because a boat is a mobile feature, that we don't / can't map?

e.g 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=349559642#map=19/-27.42815/153.08582 
- we don't try to map the last bus in the middle row as #632



Some ships and boats don't move much... as they are part of museums ...

Way: HMAS Onslow (166230547) - mapped as a 'ship' but it is a 
submarine and they are boats.


Way: HMAS Vampire (166230548)

 Tags:
    "historic"="ship"
    "name"="HMAS Vampire"
    "ref"="D11"
    "seamark:name"="HMAS Vampire"
    "ship:type"="destroyer"
    "start_date"="1956"
    "tourism"="attraction"
    "wikidata"="Q721087"
    "wikipedia"="en:HMAS Vampire (D11)"

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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Warin]

On 24/11/22 11:25, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 09:29, Andy Townsend  wrote:


Why not both?

Because a boat is a mobile feature, that we don't / can't map?

e.g 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=349559642#map=19/-27.42815/153.08582 
- we don't try to map the last bus in the middle row as #632



Some ships and boats don't move much... as they are part of museums ...

Way: HMAS Onslow (166230547) - mapped as a 'ship' but it is a submarine 
and they are boats.


Way: HMAS Vampire (166230548)

 Tags:
    "historic"="ship"
    "name"="HMAS Vampire"
    "ref"="D11"
    "seamark:name"="HMAS Vampire"
    "ship:type"="destroyer"
    "start_date"="1956"
    "tourism"="attraction"
    "wikidata"="Q721087"
    "wikipedia"="en:HMAS Vampire (D11)"___
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Jez Nicholson]

When the lifeboat is permanently moored at a particular location it is less
transitory than a busso people can and do tag them. Not me necessarily,
but other mappers.

So, my request that amenity=lifeboat be removed from the proposal's list of
incorrect tags as it is *not* a lifeboat station.

Yes, it should probably be emergency=lifeboat and the proposal could
suggest that, but they are low in number.

On Thu, Nov 24, 2022 at 12:29 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 09:29, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>
>>
>> Why not both?
>>
> Because a boat is a mobile feature, that we don't / can't map?
>
> e.g
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=349559642#map=19/-27.42815/153.08582
> - we don't try to map the last bus in the middle row as #632
>
>> Taking an example:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8321217532
>>
>>- amenity = lifeboat
>>- emergency = marine_rescue
>>- lifeboat = offshore
>>- lifeboat:class = RNLI Trent
>>
>> I've included those in the proposal as they are details that apply to the
> station, but
>
>>
>>- name = George and Mary Webb
>>
>> is the name of the lifeboat itself. This could possibly be included as
> lifeboat:name= ?
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> name  Whitby
>> Lifeboat Station
>>
>
> This is the actual name of the station.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 09:29, Andy Townsend  wrote:

>
> Why not both?
>
Because a boat is a mobile feature, that we don't / can't map?

e.g
https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?way=349559642#map=19/-27.42815/153.08582
- we don't try to map the last bus in the middle row as #632

> Taking an example:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8321217532
>
>- amenity = lifeboat
>- emergency = marine_rescue
>- lifeboat = offshore
>- lifeboat:class = RNLI Trent
>
> I've included those in the proposal as they are details that apply to the
station, but

>
>- name = George and Mary Webb
>
> is the name of the lifeboat itself. This could possibly be included as
lifeboat:name= ?


>
>
>
>
> name  Whitby
> Lifeboat Station
>

This is the actual name of the station.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Andy Townsend]

On 23/11/2022 22:23, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
But we're supposed to be tagging the base / buildings, not the boat 
itself.




Why not both?

Taking an example:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/8321217532

 * amenity = lifeboat
 * emergency = marine_rescue
 * lifeboat = offshore
 * lifeboat:class = RNLI Trent
 * name = George and Mary Webb
 * operator = Royal National Lifeboat Institution
 * operator:short = RNLI
 * ref = 14-14
 * seamark:name = George and Mary Webb
 * seamark:radio_station:category = ais
 * seamark:radio_station:mmsi = 232002370
 * seamark:rescue_station:category = lifeboat_on_mooring
 * seamark:source = Bing; https://rnli.org/find-my-nearest
 * seamark:type = rescue_station
 * website =
   
https://rnli.org/find-my-nearest/lifeboat-stations/whitby-lifeboat-station/whitby-lifeboats

The matching lifeboat station for that is:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/167044613

building 
 	yes 

description 
 
Search and Rescue
emergency 
 
lifeboat_station 

name  
Whitby Lifeboat Station
operator 
 	Royal 
National Lifeboat Institution
operator:short 
 
RNLI
operator:wikidata 
 
	Q2166873 
seamark:name 
 
Whitby Lifeboat Station
seamark:rescue_station:category 	lifeboat 

seamark:type 
 
rescue_station 

website  
https://rnli.org/find-my-nearest/lifeboat-stations/whitby-lifeboat-station
wikidata 
 
Q64584542 


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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 23 Nov 2022 at 19:12, Jez Nicholson  wrote:

>
> Is amenity=lifeboat actually wrong?
>

No, not really, but why have amenity=lifeboat & emergency=lifeboat (&
sometimes emergency=marine_rescue) both tagged on the same feature?


> The ones in the UK at least are actual lifeboats, showing where they are
> moored, probably with a lifeboat station nearby.
>

But we're supposed to be tagging the base / buildings, not the boat itself.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] RFC - Proposed features/emergency=lifeboat station

[Jez Nicholson]

Re: deprecating amenity=lifeboat

Is amenity=lifeboat actually wrong? The ones in the UK at least are actual
lifeboats, showing where they are moored, probably with a lifeboat station
nearby.

On Wed, Nov 23, 2022 at 1:00 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Following our previous discussions, I've now raised a proposal to proceed
> with these changes:
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/emergency%3Dlifeboat_station
>
> Please comment in whichever of the 3 places that you prefer, & I'll
> attempt to keep on top of all of them! :-)
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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