Re: [Tagging] Setting a preferred routing

[Greg Troxel]

Dave Swarthout  writes:

> I came across an interesting routing problem the other day. A section of
> the Richardson Highway in Alaska was relocated in 2015 by the Alaska DOT in
> anticipation of erosion or flooding by the nearby Delta River. However, the
> old highway is still present, is still paved, and is shorter than the new
> highway that replaced it. OSM mapper Will Lenz classified the old highway
> as a track to "persuade" his GPS's routing algorithm into using the new
> section. See the following changeset and the conversation I had with Will
> here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/47049836.

Changing tags to make a router do something, when the tags are not
accurate is "tagging for the router" and not ok, in the same sense that
"tagging for the renderer" is not ok.

Certainly as sections become unpaved, bridges no longer work, those
features should be reflected in the map, and that will pretty quickly
(instantly in the case of bridges) cause routing to flip to the new way.
So perhaps this is already no longer an issue.

> Clearly, the old highway is not a track using the Wiki's definition. I
> might be tempted to tag it as highway=unclassified, or perhaps service, but
> none of these solutions is ideal. Will's idea works but is not, strictly
> speaking, proper.

unclassified, or maybe even tertiary (assuming AK 4 is secondary, being a
state highway) seems ok.  The real point is lanes, surface, maxspeed and
maxspeed:practical, in terms of how routers behave.

A big question is how the authorities view use of the road.  If it's
perfectly ok to use it, then it seems that it's just a matter of
preference for someone to want to use the new section instead.   If it's
posted not to use it, then access tags are in order.

A router ought to be constructing an estimate of how long it takes for a
given path, and the distance.  Then allocating penalties for things that
are not about time/distance, like bumps endured, and then choosing a
path with some minimum of a compound metric.  Generally highway
classification will have little to do with this, but surface, lanes,
speeds, traffic lights, etc. will of course matter.

The obvious experiement is to drive both ways and record the experience,
and then figure out how the map data transforms into time/distance
estimates, and see where those estimates are incorrect, and if there are
serious instances of that, fix the map.

But if the old road is faster and shorter, a router saying to take it
is not wrong.

Someone who prefers a route that is longer is not wrong to have that
preference.  But they need to be able to communicate that preference to
the router, rather than expecting their preference to be encoded in a
subtle, hard-to-follow manner in the map.  An obvious method is to
select an intermediate waypoint along the new road.  I do this when I
want to force a particular route (because I know about
traffic/construction, or just because I find a less crowded road more
pleasant, even if it does take longer).
.




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Re: [Tagging] Setting a preferred routing

[Andre Engels]

I would make it unclassified - more generally, in this kind of case I
would put the old route at some lower highway level than the new
route, exact value depending on the situation (both the relative
quality of the roads and the presence or absence of destinations for
which the old road would actually be the best choice.

Andre Engels


On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 1:10 AM, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
> Hi,
> I came across an interesting routing problem the other day. A section of the
> Richardson Highway in Alaska was relocated in 2015 by the Alaska DOT in
> anticipation of erosion or flooding by the nearby Delta River. However, the
> old highway is still present, is still paved, and is shorter than the new
> highway that replaced it. OSM mapper Will Lenz classified the old highway as
> a track to "persuade" his GPS's routing algorithm into using the new
> section. See the following changeset and the conversation I had with Will
> here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/47049836.
>
> Clearly, the old highway is not a track using the Wiki's definition. I might
> be tempted to tag it as highway=unclassified, or perhaps service, but none
> of these solutions is ideal. Will's idea works but is not, strictly
> speaking, proper.
>
> How then should one tag such a way?
>
> AlaskaDave
>
> --
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
>
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Re: [Tagging] Setting a preferred routing

[André Pirard]

Hi,

Wouldn't it be appropriate for this kind of discussion to ask
routing/GPS programmers like OSMand and Graphhopper etc. what they use
for route optimization and what else they would like to use, hence us to do.
I always say that the biggest routing problem (some people openly LOL at
OSM routing) is that taggers and wiki writers don't realize that it's a
matter of following the very strict, same rules in OSM as in the routers.
I'm disappointed to see basic misunderstanding show in tags like many
unnecessary bicycle=yes
or [OSM-talk-be] Missing oneway:bicycle=no 2017-02-14 17:33 where
oneway:bicycle
=no, an
instruction to routers, is confused with Key:cycleway, the indication of
the presence of a cycleway.
The explanation of cycleway
=opposite* and its
presence in the "access" page make believe that it's an access tag when
it's not (a cycle map confuses them and a friend tagged them both
everywhere where there is no cycleway).
I'm also disappointed that I, instead of the LOL above, have been called
sarcastic for saying things like this and help.

Cheers

André.



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Re: [Tagging] Setting a preferred routing

[Dave Swarthout]

I'm so enamored of the new ESRI imagery I had forgotten to check *all* the
available imagery in that area. Thanks, Hans.

It appears that not only has some of the old pavement been removed but
there is no bridge over the small stream anymore. The highway isn't even
continuous. I'll check with Will to see if he knows for sure if that bridge
is gone.

Either way, the problem is solved.

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> The old hwy looks like it is being torn apart in a few area looking at the
> Digital Globe standard imagery. Track may be more appropriate.
>
> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 7:27 PM, Hans De Kryger  > wrote:
>
>> DigitalGlobe Standard Imagery has the new road. Also we have a more up to
>> date map than Google in that area 
>>
>> *Regards,*
>>
>> *Hans*
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick <
>> graemefi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> How about =proposed?
>>>
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:proposed
>>>
>>> "For roads to be removed, use *proposed:highway*=no. This is understood
>>> by (at least) ITO's Transport Construction
>>>  map."
>>>
>>> "
>>>
>>>- a further tag could be added to illustrate the expected beginning
>>>of construction and planned opening date.
>>>
>>> e.g. construction_start_expected
>>> 
>>> =-MM-DD construction_end_expected
>>> 
>>> =-MM-DD"
>>>
>>> I don't know what that would do to routing - I'd guess that you could
>>> still force your GPS to go that way, but it wouldn't automatically pick it?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Graeme
>>>


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>
>
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Setting a preferred routing

[Clifford Snow]

The old hwy looks like it is being torn apart in a few area looking at the
Digital Globe standard imagery. Track may be more appropriate.

On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 7:27 PM, Hans De Kryger 
wrote:

> DigitalGlobe Standard Imagery has the new road. Also we have a more up to
> date map than Google in that area 
>
> *Regards,*
>
> *Hans*
>
> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  > wrote:
>
>> How about =proposed?
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:proposed
>>
>> "For roads to be removed, use *proposed:highway*=no. This is understood
>> by (at least) ITO's Transport Construction
>>  map."
>>
>> "
>>
>>- a further tag could be added to illustrate the expected beginning
>>of construction and planned opening date.
>>
>> e.g. construction_start_expected
>> 
>> =-MM-DD construction_end_expected
>> 
>> =-MM-DD"
>>
>> I don't know what that would do to routing - I'd guess that you could
>> still force your GPS to go that way, but it wouldn't automatically pick it?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>>>
>>>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Setting a preferred routing

[Hans De Kryger]

DigitalGlobe Standard Imagery has the new road. Also we have a more up to
date map than Google in that area 

*Regards,*

*Hans*

On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 4:37 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> How about =proposed?
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:proposed
>
> "For roads to be removed, use *proposed:highway*=no. This is understood
> by (at least) ITO's Transport Construction
>  map."
>
> "
>
>- a further tag could be added to illustrate the expected beginning of
>construction and planned opening date.
>
> e.g. construction_start_expected
> 
> =-MM-DD construction_end_expected
> 
> =-MM-DD"
>
> I don't know what that would do to routing - I'd guess that you could
> still force your GPS to go that way, but it wouldn't automatically pick it?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Setting a preferred routing

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

How about =proposed?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:proposed

"For roads to be removed, use *proposed:highway*=no. This is understood by
(at least) ITO's Transport Construction 
 map."

"

   - a further tag could be added to illustrate the expected beginning of
   construction and planned opening date.

e.g. construction_start_expected

=-MM-DD construction_end_expected

=-MM-DD"

I don't know what that would do to routing - I'd guess that you could still
force your GPS to go that way, but it wouldn't automatically pick it?

Thanks

Graeme

>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Setting a preferred routing

[Kevin Kenny]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> I came across an interesting routing problem the other day. A section of
> the Richardson Highway in Alaska was relocated in 2015 by the Alaska DOT in
> anticipation of erosion or flooding by the nearby Delta River. However, the
> old highway is still present, is still paved, and is shorter than the new
> highway that replaced it. OSM mapper Will Lenz classified the old highway
> as a track to "persuade" his GPS's routing algorithm into using the new
> section. See the following changeset and the conversation I had with Will
> here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/47049836.
>
> Clearly, the old highway is not a track using the Wiki's definition. I
> might be tempted to tag it as highway=unclassified, or perhaps service, but
> none of these solutions is ideal. Will's idea works but is not, strictly
> speaking, proper.
>

It rather depends on why a router should avoid it. Is it posted 'no thru
traffic' while still being the only route to somewhere? (In which case
'access=destination' might cover it.)
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Re: [Tagging] Setting a preferred routing

[Clifford Snow]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> Hi,
> I came across an interesting routing problem the other day. A section of
> the Richardson Highway in Alaska was relocated in 2015 by the Alaska DOT in
> anticipation of erosion or flooding by the nearby Delta River. However, the
> old highway is still present, is still paved, and is shorter than the new
> highway that replaced it. OSM mapper Will Lenz classified the old highway
> as a track to "persuade" his GPS's routing algorithm into using the new
> section. See the following changeset and the conversation I had with Will
> here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/47049836.
>
> Clearly, the old highway is not a track using the Wiki's definition. I
> might be tempted to tag it as highway=unclassified, or perhaps service, but
> none of these solutions is ideal. Will's idea works but is not, strictly
> speaking, proper.
>
> From the imagery, it certainly would fit the highway=unclassified. Since
the new road isn't visible, do you know if the old road is paved up to the
primary road on both ends? If it is, then yes, its an unclassified road.

It might help routers to have add maxspeed. (Does Alaska even have a max
speed limit?)

Clifford



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