Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-22 Thread phil
Dormitories are rooms with multiple beds, usually bunk beds and associated with 
youth hostels,  certainly not suitable for student accommodation where there is 
typically one student in a room, maybe two but they are certainly not 
dormitories. 

Phil (trigpoint )

On Sat Sep 20 2014 23:12:24 GMT+0100 (BST), Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
 On 9/20/14, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote:
  2014-09-19 15:52 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de:
  I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely
  accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British
  english!
 
 Wouldn't be the first time if ever:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dsoccer
 
 That said, to me dormitories may also apply to other institutionalized
 housing such as housing for staff of a manufacturing plant. Although I
 admit that dormitories are primarily for students in my understanding.
 This ambiguity can be resolved by careful definition in the Wiki if
 ever people accept *=dormitory.
 
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-21 Thread Dan S
2014-09-21 0:49 GMT+01:00 Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com:
 On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 7:09 AM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:

 Dormitories are rooms with multiple beds, usually bunk beds and associated
 with youth hostels,  certainly not suitable for student accommodation where
 there is typically one student in a room, maybe two but they are certainly
 not dormitories.

 What you're saying is British English usage. Here in the Philippines,
 dormitories are understood to be buildings primarily for students.

Thanks. So we've re-confirmed that the word dormitory has some
ambiguities that might be problematic, especially considering that OSM
is based on British English.

Eugene points out sport=soccer which is a good example of OSM
deliberately avoiding ambiguities, since in that case the common term
football has one meaning in US and one in UK. In that case we
avoided the British term as a special case, to avoid the ambiguity.
Here dormitory is the ambiguous term.

But that's all fine, since remember that Hno's tag proposal has
already been altered to amenity=student_accommodation.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/amenity%3Dstudent_accommodation
I agree with fly that it'd be nice to have a tag which didn't fix the
profession (so that it could be used for nurses/lecturers/etc) but
maybe that's not so bad.

Cheers
Dan

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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-21 Thread Dan S
2014-09-19 16:15 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:


 2014-09-19 14:22 GMT+02:00 Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com:


  for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university +
 operator=*
 OR
  for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*

 Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for
 landuse.



 I am not sure if this works. Have you been looking at current values for
 the residential key? These are the ones with more than 100 uses:

 rural http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=rural
 78 141

 -

 urban http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=urban
 12 698

 -

 garden http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=garden
 3 805

 -

 gated http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=gated
 884

 -

 apartments http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=apartments
 231

 -

 single_family
 http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=single_family
 197

 -

 detached http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=detached
 133




Thanks Martin. Yes I did look at these. NONE of them have a wiki page, nor
does the residential=* tag in general, so I'm at a loss to work out what is
intended by them!

* Surely the rural/urban distinction is judged by location? Could you have
residential=rural in the town centre? Maybe (since the tag isn't
documented) but I would guess not. So what's the tag for? Does it designate
context, building style, building density...?

* Surely apartments/detached/single_family should be properties of the
building objects?

* residential=garden I quite like, but it seems to duplicate leisure=garden
and it seems strange to me to consider gardens as residential since
usually no-one lives in the garden. I wonder if it was ever discussed much.

* residential=gated I like. In theory you can use barrier=* and access=* to
indicate the unusual access constraints for gated residences, but actually
it's not always obvious as that, since non-gated communities might also
have fences etc. So this tag seems to me like it might make a useful
distinction.



 There are already at least 3 different systems (one for rural / urban and
 one for the building typology (detached / single_family / apartments) and
 one for gated communities (what's this, socio-economic aspect of urbanism
 maybe?). Now you seem to be adding yet another one, university for
 student's appartments (not really self explaining IMHO).


So if not self-explaining, what misunderstandings of
residential=university could happen? It seems quite self-explaining to
me, so I'd be grateful if you could offer your perspective of potential
misunderstandings of residential=university.



 I would use a specific tag for the building typology (e.g.
 building=dormitory or student_accomodation or similar if the building was
 built as such) and another one if it is actually used as such (e.g. under
 the amenity key as suggested by Tobias).


Understood. For the building, at least, the subtag works, if used to
indicate building typology.



 I don't see this as a case for adding a specific landuse value, but I do
 agree that refining the generic residential into more differentiated
 values by subtagging might be a general option (regardless of this
 particular case of student accomodation), e.g. differentiate according to
 density and

 structure (open / closed, not sure about the precise term in English, for
 reference see these two pictures:
 open (=space between buildings)
 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offene_Bauweise_%28Baurecht%29#mediaviewer/File:Offene_Bauweise.png
 closed (buildings without space between them):
 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschlossene_Bauweise_%28Baurecht%29#mediaviewer/File:Geschlossene_Bauweise.png


In British English this seems to me to  detached vs semi-detached vs
terrace (though there's not a 1:1 concept match). Again, though, it's not
clear to me why you'd want to tag residential areas as having these
properties, since they're already commonly indicated via the tags/geometry
of the building objects.

Thanks again for your detailed reply.

Best
Dan
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-21 Thread John F. Eldredge
Another difference between college dormitories and apartments is that 
dormitory rooms usually lack cooking facilities, and, at least in older 
buildings, may have communal toilet/shower facilities rather than en suite 
facilities.




On September 20, 2014 8:47:08 AM sabas88 saba...@gmail.com wrote:


On 19 Sep 2014 16:54, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote:

 On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote:
   for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university +
operator=*
  OR
   for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*
 
  Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for
landuse.
 
  I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't
  find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently
  used 263 times. (I will add that dormitory is certainly a little odd
  from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments
  already made to the RFC.)

 That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely
 because of the oddness involved with the term dormitory.

 Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or
 landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct
 facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but
 how the building is built.

+1
I tagged some student residences as tourism=guest_house previously, but
they aren't buildings (some are apartments inside buildings, but owned by
the local government agency for student services).

Stefano
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread Dan S
2014-09-19 15:52 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de:
 On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote:
  for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university + operator=*
 OR
  for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*

 Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for 
 landuse.

 I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't
 find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently
 used 263 times. (I will add that dormitory is certainly a little odd
 from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments
 already made to the RFC.)

 That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely
 because of the oddness involved with the term dormitory.

Ah yes, thanks. So now it assumes the occupants are students and not
lecturers ;)

(I'm just being cheeky. I know of universities in which lecturers do
stay in similar accommodation blocks, but that point is not important
enough to argue about...)

 Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or
 landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct
 facility

OK. I understand why you'd prefer amenity for tagging the usage. If
that tag gets accepted I guess I should use that instead of landuse,
and I understand your arguments there. I feel differently, because I
feel the analogy between a housing estate and a multi-building
student halls site is quite a strong analogy, neatly represented by
a named area of landuse=residential. But there we go.

 and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but how the building 
 is built.

This week I stayed in university accommodation (even though I'm not a
student ;), and the buildings were purpose-built student halls, so it
would be nice to tag the building appropriately. Alternatives include:
(a) building=residential (without subtagging), which is fine if vague;
(b) building=apartments, which is tolerable but not quite appropriate;
(c) building=dormitory which is in use, but it's US English, and to
my Brit English mind just feels wrong. Sorry to moan about the US/UK
difference, but it is indeed a difference:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/dormitory,
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/dormitory
(d) building=residential + residential=university, the approach I
was using recently. Not as widely used. It has an advantage of
graceful fallback (meaning data-users can understand the objects as
building=residential even if they ignore the subtag).

I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely
accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British
english!

Cheers
Dan

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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread sabas88
On 19 Sep 2014 16:54, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote:

 On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote:
   for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university +
operator=*
  OR
   for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*
 
  Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for
landuse.
 
  I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't
  find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently
  used 263 times. (I will add that dormitory is certainly a little odd
  from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments
  already made to the RFC.)

 That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely
 because of the oddness involved with the term dormitory.

 Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or
 landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct
 facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but
 how the building is built.

+1
I tagged some student residences as tourism=guest_house previously, but
they aren't buildings (some are apartments inside buildings, but owned by
the local government agency for student services).

Stefano
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread phil
Students accommodation is neither tourism or guesthouse,  I would have gone for 
hall_of_residence. 

Phil (trigpoint )

On Sat Sep 20 2014 14:46:17 GMT+0100 (BST), sabas88 wrote:
 On 19 Sep 2014 16:54, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote:
 
  On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote:
for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university +
 operator=*
   OR
for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*
  
   Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for
 landuse.
  
   I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't
   find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently
   used 263 times. (I will add that dormitory is certainly a little odd
   from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments
   already made to the RFC.)
 
  That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely
  because of the oddness involved with the term dormitory.
 
  Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or
  landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct
  facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but
  how the building is built.
 
 +1
 I tagged some student residences as tourism=guest_house previously, but
 they aren't buildings (some are apartments inside buildings, but owned by
 the local government agency for student services).
 
 Stefano
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread fly
Am 20.09.2014 18:32, schrieb p...@trigpoint.me.uk:
 Students accommodation is neither tourism or guesthouse,

+1

  I would have gone for hall_of_residence. 

Do not know if hall_of_residence is the right term.

I know this accommodations for staff of hospitals (nurses) , too.

Would be nice if could find some tag to describe it without profession.

cu fly

 On Sat Sep 20 2014 14:46:17 GMT+0100 (BST), sabas88 wrote:
 On 19 Sep 2014 16:54, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote:

 On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote:
  for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university +
 operator=*
 OR
  for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*

 Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for
 landuse.

 I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't
 find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently
 used 263 times. (I will add that dormitory is certainly a little odd
 from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments
 already made to the RFC.)

 That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely
 because of the oddness involved with the term dormitory.

 Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or
 landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct
 facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but
 how the building is built.

 +1
 I tagged some student residences as tourism=guest_house previously, but
 they aren't buildings (some are apartments inside buildings, but owned by
 the local government agency for student services).

 Stefano
 ___
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread Richard Welty


On 09/20/2014 12:41 PM, fly wrote:

Am 20.09.2014 18:32, schrieb p...@trigpoint.me.uk:

  I would have gone for hall_of_residence.

Do not know if hall_of_residence is the right term.


hall_of_residence would work. i would have proposed the
shorter, less formal term residence_hall which is what you
will find in US usage.

richard


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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer




 Il giorno 20/set/2014, alle ore 13:47, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com ha 
 scritto:
 
 I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely
 accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British
 english!


I'm also for a specific value, if dormitory doesn't hit it for the British, 
maybe there is an analog term?


cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar
On 9/20/14, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote:
 2014-09-19 15:52 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de:
 I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely
 accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British
 english!

Wouldn't be the first time if ever:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dsoccer

That said, to me dormitories may also apply to other institutionalized
housing such as housing for staff of a manufacturing plant. Although I
admit that dormitories are primarily for students in my understanding.
This ambiguity can be resolved by careful definition in the Wiki if
ever people accept *=dormitory.

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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread phil
Dormitories are rooms with multiple beds, usually bunk beds and associated with 
youth hostels,  certainly not suitable for student accommodation where there is 
typically one student in a room, maybe two but they are certainly not 
dormitories. 

Phil (trigpoint )

On Sat Sep 20 2014 23:12:24 GMT+0100 (BST), Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
 On 9/20/14, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote:
  2014-09-19 15:52 GMT+01:00 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de:
  I still prefer (d) though if building=dormitory becomes widely
  accepted then I guess I shall have to swallow that loss for British
  english!
 
 Wouldn't be the first time if ever:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dsoccer
 
 That said, to me dormitories may also apply to other institutionalized
 housing such as housing for staff of a manufacturing plant. Although I
 admit that dormitories are primarily for students in my understanding.
 This ambiguity can be resolved by careful definition in the Wiki if
 ever people accept *=dormitory.
 
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-20 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar
On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 7:09 AM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:

 Dormitories are rooms with multiple beds, usually bunk beds and associated
 with youth hostels,  certainly not suitable for student accommodation where
 there is typically one student in a room, maybe two but they are certainly
 not dormitories.


What you're saying is British English usage. Here in the Philippines,
dormitories are understood to be buildings primarily for students.

For example, in the Ateneo de Manila University, we have the Cervini
Residence Hall for males and Eliazo Residence Hall for females: Note that
the Wikipedia article classifies these are dormitories in accordance to
local usage even if the official name uses Residence Hall:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cervini-Eliazo_Residence_Halls

In the University of the Philippines, we have several dormitories such as
Kalayaan Hall, Ilang-Ilang Hall, Molave Hall, etc.

There are also private businesses that run student dormitories, usually
located very near universities such as Manila Dormitory across the
University of Santo Tomas: http://maniladormitory.com/
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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-19 Thread Tobias Knerr
On 19.09.2014 14:22 Dan S wrote:
  for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university + operator=*
 OR
  for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*
 
 Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for 
 landuse.
 
 I thought this had been discussed on tagging recently, but I can't
 find it, all I can find is the RFC for amenity=dormitory, currently
 used 263 times. (I will add that dormitory is certainly a little odd
 from a British English point of view, notwithstanding the comments
 already made to the RFC.)

That proposal now suggests amenity=student_accommodation, precisely
because of the oddness involved with the term dormitory.

Personally, I prefer using the amenity key rather than building or
landuse. Landuse lacks the implication that this is one distinct
facility, and building values are not supposed to represent usage, but
how the building is built.


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Re: [Tagging] University accommodation (was Re: Future proposal - RFC - amenity=dormitory)

2014-09-19 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-09-19 14:22 GMT+02:00 Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com:


  for buildings:   building=residential + residential=university +
 operator=*
 OR
  for sites:   landuse=residential + residential=university + operator=*

 Note that the same scheme seems to me to work well for building and for
 landuse.



I am not sure if this works. Have you been looking at current values for
the residential key? These are the ones with more than 100 uses:

rural http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=rural
78 141

-

urban http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=urban
12 698

-

garden http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=garden
3 805

-

gated http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=gated
884

-

apartments http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=apartments
231

-

single_family
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=single_family
197

-

detached http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/residential=detached
133



There are already at least 3 different systems (one for rural / urban and
one for the building typology (detached / single_family / apartments) and
one for gated communities (what's this, socio-economic aspect of urbanism
maybe?). Now you seem to be adding yet another one, university for
student's appartments (not really self explaining IMHO).

I would use a specific tag for the building typology (e.g.
building=dormitory or student_accomodation or similar if the building was
built as such) and another one if it is actually used as such (e.g. under
the amenity key as suggested by Tobias).

I don't see this as a case for adding a specific landuse value, but I do
agree that refining the generic residential into more differentiated
values by subtagging might be a general option (regardless of this
particular case of student accomodation), e.g. differentiate according to
density and

structure (open / closed, not sure about the precise term in English, for
reference see these two pictures:
open (=space between buildings)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offene_Bauweise_%28Baurecht%29#mediaviewer/File:Offene_Bauweise.png
closed (buildings without space between them):
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschlossene_Bauweise_%28Baurecht%29#mediaviewer/File:Geschlossene_Bauweise.png

the above distinction is still quite generic, both of these types also have
a lot of subtypes (ideally, then there are mixed cases).

cheers,
Martin
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