Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Kevin Kenny]

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 7:49 AM, Wolfgang Zenker 
wrote:

> * John Willis  [170219 09:53]:
> > If someone was looking to wash a giant bedspread or duvet, knowing there
> is only one laundromat in town with a giant machine would be very useful.
>
> Then we might just tag the things that are useful. How about
> laundry:oversize_items=yes|no|only ?
>

I'd be fine with this. When I use a coin laundry it's either, (a) I'm
traveling (in which case, the hotel likely has one) - or (b) I'm washing a
duvet or sleeping bag. If I'm looking for the second case, I need to find a
laundry with a machine that can handle it. I don't think that needs to
imply a detailed taxonomy of laundry equipment.
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Wolfgang Zenker]

* John Willis  [170219 09:53]:
>> On Feb 19, 2017, at 8:01 AM, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
>> +1
>> Regardless of the "intent" of OSM, this level of tagging does seem excessive 
>> IMO. I've been following the thread and am amazed that this much attention 
>> can be focused on developing tagging for washing machines. I guess the 
>> saying, Your Mileage May Vary, is the operative aphorism LOL

> Although I am personally not so interested in the machines, when the 
> laundromats are not mapped correctly (google maps and Apple maps was missing 
> the 4 closest coin laundry places to my residences when I searched so I added 
> them in both) it is very frustrating.

> If someone was looking to wash a giant bedspread or duvet, knowing there is 
> only one laundromat in town with a giant machine would be very useful.  

Then we might just tag the things that are useful. How about
laundry:oversize_items=yes|no|only ?

Wolfgang

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19 Feb 2017, at 09:53, John Willis  wrote:
> 
> Comparing it to food menu items at a restaurant is wrong.


+1, machines get changed less frequently than menu items, or at least require 
more effort.

cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

> On Feb 19, 2017, at 8:01 AM, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
> 
> +1
> Regardless of the "intent" of OSM, this level of tagging does seem excessive 
> IMO. I've been following the thread and am amazed that this much attention 
> can be focused on developing tagging for washing machines. I guess the 
> saying, Your Mileage May Vary, is the operative aphorism LOL


Although I am personally not so interested in the machines, when the 
laundromats are not mapped correctly (google maps and Apple maps was missing 
the 4 closest coin laundry places to my residences when I searched so I added 
them in both) it is very frustrating.

If someone was looking to wash a giant bedspread or duvet, knowing there is 
only one laundromat in town with a giant machine would be very useful.  

Poi information is steadily being added and expanded upon in commercial apps 
and OSM. I can tag the genus of a single tree in OSM. 

All this talk is to think about *if* we were to map the number of machines and 
some rough idea of size - what information could we show that would be useful 
in a POI display for a laundromat? How could we classify machines in a easy to 
map but useful way? What units of measurement.  Specially machines might be one 
of them. 

Comparing it to food menu items at a restaurant is wrong. Takeaway, regional 
food type, and other restaurant informTion is currently mapped. 

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Dave Swarthout]

I'm not so sure that tagging minutiae like this is appropriate for OSM,
which is really a geo-database and not a business/services directory. This
is like tagging Italian restaurants with something like the following
(which I hope nobody thinks is a good idea):

+1
Regardless of the "intent" of OSM, this level of tagging does seem
excessive IMO. I've been following the thread and am amazed that this much
attention can be focused on developing tagging for washing machines. I
guess the saying, Your Mileage May Vary, is the operative aphorism LOL

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 4:52 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 19-Feb-17 03:11 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
>
>
>>
> I'm not so sure that tagging minutiae like this is appropriate for OSM,
> which is really a geo-database and not a business/services directory. This
> is like tagging Italian restaurants with something like the following
> (which I hope nobody thinks is a good idea):
>
>
> OSM could be restricted to just roads. Why have restaurants at all in
> OSM?  But fortunately the majority can see that some section of users want
> restaurants and they want to be able to distinguish between different
> cuisines.
> Same thing for opening_hours .. too much detail for OSM? I think not.
>
>
> I think it is enough just to indicate if a laundromat is self-service,
> coin-operated, full-service, etc. and not bothering to classify the
> available washing machines. I know tagging information like these is useful
> but should these really be included in OSM? Maybe we ought to have an
> OpenBusinessDirectory sister project or something:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Business_Directory
>
>
> Fuel stations are now tagged with the type of fuel available there.
> I see no reason to limit what one feature can be tagged with if someone
> wants to tag them ...after all OSM is free tagging with what ever a mapper
> wants to place on a feature.
> By discussing that tagging here you have an opportunity to format that
> tagging into something that might just make sense, has some structure and
> conforms to the other structures used in OSM tagging.
>
> If someone does not want the added detail .. then there is no compulsion
> for them to add nor use that data.
>
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>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 19-Feb-17 03:11 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:




I'm not so sure that tagging minutiae like this is appropriate for 
OSM, which is really a geo-database and not a business/services 
directory. This is like tagging Italian restaurants with something 
like the following (which I hope nobody thinks is a good idea):


OSM could be restricted to just roads. Why have restaurants at all in 
OSM?  But fortunately the majority can see that some section of users 
want restaurants and they want to be able to distinguish between 
different cuisines.

Same thing for opening_hours .. too much detail for OSM? I think not.


I think it is enough just to indicate if a laundromat is self-service, 
coin-operated, full-service, etc. and not bothering to classify the 
available washing machines. I know tagging information like these is 
useful but should these really be included in OSM? Maybe we ought to 
have an OpenBusinessDirectory sister project or something: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Business_Directory


Fuel stations are now tagged with the type of fuel available there.
I see no reason to limit what one feature can be tagged with if someone 
wants to tag them ...after all OSM is free tagging with what ever a 
mapper wants to place on a feature.
By discussing that tagging here you have an opportunity to format that 
tagging into something that might just make sense, has some structure 
and conforms to the other structures used in OSM tagging.


If someone does not want the added detail .. then there is no compulsion 
for them to add nor use that data.
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

>
> Laundromat:foobar=n  scheme.
>
> Laundromat:10kg_dryer=8
> Laundromat:20kg_dryer=2
> Laundromat:10kg_sidewasher=3
> Laundromat:20kg_sidewasher=1
> Laundromat:shoe_washer=1
> Laundromat:shoe_dryer=1
>

I'm not so sure that tagging minutiae like this is appropriate for OSM,
which is really a geo-database and not a business/services directory. This
is like tagging Italian restaurants with something like the following
(which I hope nobody thinks is a good idea):

pasta:spaghetti:tomato=yes
pasta:spaghetti:pesto=yes
pasta:ravioli=yes
pizza:crust=hand-tossed

I think it is enough just to indicate if a laundromat is self-service,
coin-operated, full-service, etc. and not bothering to classify the
available washing machines. I know tagging information like these is useful
but should these really be included in OSM? Maybe we ought to have an
OpenBusinessDirectory sister project or something:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Business_Directory
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

> On Feb 18, 2017, at 11:25 AM, Kevin Kenny  wrote:
> 
> In any case,  since I have laundry equipment at home, what I'm usually 
> searching for is "laundromat with a large-capacity front-loading machine" - 
> since that's what I'll need for a sleeping bag or a down-filled duvet.

So would laundromat:side_loading:60lb=1 be good enough? 

I am not sure that I have ever washed a sleeping bag. I have owned a few, and I 
thnk my father had them dry-cleaned a long time ago. I'll have to remember 
that about the washer. 

People looking for machines for various reasons - maybe having "oversize" for 
part of the name to denote it's status as a very large washer/drier is good for 
understanding it. 

Laundromat:oversize_frontload_washer:60lb=1 
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Kevin Kenny]

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 12:53 AM, John Willis  wrote:

> > On Feb 17, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> >
> > I guess the preferred unit will depend on the country where you are
> mapping.
>
> I would prefer drum volume (as it is actually measureable), but the units
> that are mapped most often will probably KG/LB/loads


Drum volumes are very different between front-loaders and top-loaders that
will wash the same loads.

In any case,  since I have laundry equipment at home, what I'm usually
searching for is "laundromat with a large-capacity front-loading machine" -
since that's what I'll need for a sleeping bag or a down-filled duvet. The
idea that the "large capacity" machine may be rated for a nominal "12 kg"
is ridiculous, since my summer sleeping bags weighs less than a kg dry, and
the winter one about 1.5 kg, but the volumes of a top-loading "standard
capacity" (6 kg?) machine and a front-loading "large capacity" machine
don't compare directly either. I'm not sure, given our data model, how I'd
state such a query. (Today, I ask Google. :P)

By the way, it must be a front-loader. Never, ever wash a lightweight down
sleeping bag in a top-loader - that's just begging to tear the baffles.
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Marc Gemis]

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:10 AM, John Willis  wrote:
> Mapping the drum volume is best, then KG/lbs, then "loads". We can fuzzily
> convert between them - at least as well as the people in the industry ca

AFAIK, in Belgium the drum volume is never mentioned, only the
kilograms.  I also wonder whether it is possible that 2 machines with
the same drum volume exist, but have different kg because the motor of
one of them is less powerful.

I guess the preferred unit will depend on the country where you are mapping.

m

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Feb 16, 2017, at 10:51 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> ems when it comes to laundry in the US, there's not really a set "load" size, 
> even though every machine ever at a commercial laundry shows capacities in 
> "loads."  
 

The issue is that though the drum volume is easily measured in cubic feet, the 
"kg" rating for the same capacity drum varies from manufacturer to 
manufacturer, but there seems to be in a small range of variance. 

The same variance occurs as to how many pounds makes up a nominal "load" 

The idea originally came from small washers a long time ago, and larger "double 
load" washers many people buy are larger than they used to be. 

From a message board: 

"It's hard comparing capacity in weight(kg) to volume (cf). Samsung has a chart 
that shows their 4.0 cf washers handling 14kg, and their 4.5cf washers handling 
16kg. That puts the equation as:

Capacity in Cubic Feet = Capacity in Kilograms / 3.5"

Other people noted it is kg/3 for some machines and kg/3.5 quoted by Samsung. 

A washing machine repair man on a paid question answer service was quoted as:

"So [4.3cu ft] is actually a very large kilogram capacity to what you might be 
used to since most countries that use kilos to measure units typically have 
compact washers. 4.3 cu ft is equivalent to 12 kilos." 

This was a 2.8 ratio - a conservative estimate, but is kg/3 if it is just 4.0 
cu ft. 

Then reading a laundromat operator's forum, 

http://www.coinlaundry.org/openforumlink/community-home/viewthread?GroupId=43=3707=digestviewer#bm0

"There is pretty good evidence that a "load" is about 10lbs of laundry, but the 
manufacturers market the washer as holding more - but is actually unable to 
clean a normal mix clothes that weigh as much as they rate."
And 
"The industry generally allows about 6 lbs. per cubic foot capacity but a cubic 
foot actually holds about 4 lbs. of normal laundry."
And
"I have asked this question several times over many years and always told a 
single load is 15 lbs of dry clothes."

One person posed a picture of a manufacturers documentation for "30lb 3-load 
commercial washers" That worked out to 4cubic feet = 3 loads, and the ratios 
were roughly the same for their larger washers (60lb 6 load washers). 


Our previous suggestion that it is kg/3 looks like:

4 cubic feet = 12kg/3 or ~26.5 pounds/3 

To fit the manufacturer's guidelines, 

4 cubic feet = 13kg/3.4 or ~30 pounds/3.4 

This is closer to Samsung's guidance. 

I think it is safe to be conservative, but following the manufacturer's signage 
is probably more consistent, since that is what most people will see when 
mapping. 

So: 

1 cubic foot = 3.5kg or 7.7 pounds of laundry
One load = 10 lbs / 4.54 kg of laundry. 

Mapping the drum volume is best, then KG/lbs, then "loads". We can fuzzily 
convert between them - at least as well as the people in the industry can. 

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Paul Johnson]

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Mark Wagner  wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:28:17 +0900
> John Willis  wrote:
>
> > Javbw
> >
> > Side note:
> >
> > I imagine laundromats could have a whole
> >
> > Laundromat:foobar=n  scheme.
> >
> > Laundromat:10kg_dryer=8
> > Laundromat:20kg_dryer=2
> > Laundromat:10kg_sidewasher=3
> > Laundromat:20kg_sidewasher=1
> > Laundromat:shoe_washer=1
> > Laundromat:shoe_dryer=1
> >
> > Would be the closest laundromat to my house, Kg are approx.
>
> That wouldn't work too well in the US.  Here, capacities are
> typically measured in notional "loads": the average laundromat would
> have a large number of "single-load" machines, a few "double-load" or
> "triple-load" machines, and possibly a side-loading "five-load" machine
> for things like quilts or sleeping bags.
>

Reminds me of going to Liberty Laundry and asking the attendant the first
time it came up, "How many loads is a fursuit, anyway?"  He eyeballed it
and said, "You want the second largest; it'll probably go off balance if
you use the largest and might get damaged in a smaller one.

This probably isn't making it simpler, but seems when it comes to laundry
in the US, there's not really a set "load" size, even though every machine
ever at a commercial laundry shows capacities in "loads."
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 14-Feb-17 01:44 PM, John Willis wrote:


Javbw


On Feb 14, 2017, at 5:43 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Mappers can enter miles instead of kilometres .. so they too should be able to 
enter the units they have into the capacity of the laundry machine.

Yea, because it is well known that they correlate, like C and F.

The loads idea requires people to actually know what the ratio is for mapping 
and the data user to be able to show the correct unit for the user. Also, the 
load might vary a bit and not line up cleanly, so it might display a 1.2 load 
washer or something.


I don't think the variation would worry most people ...it is just an indication 
of how much maybe put into the machine.
Not many people measure their load into the machine.:-)



Maybe it is best to have a single unit (kg?) and have the data provider 
translate the information into loads, but it seems that mapping a million 
washing machines that are all labeled in one unit for one continent in its 
native unit is good for mappers to get it mapped correctly.


The mappers need to be able to enter the data they have directly, in what ever 
units they have, this minimises any possibility of input error.

Any calculation should be done by the data user .. into whatever units they 
desire.
Correlation between the units should not be handled by 1,000,002 mappers .. 
they may have different ideas of the correlation.
This helps in that there is only one area of calculation .. and that can be 
easily corrected if required.
Where no conversion is needed, say cu ft to cu ft, then there will be no 
calculation .. and this would probably be the case for a local map.
 



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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 14-Feb-17 01:33 PM, John Willis wrote:





On Feb 13, 2017, at 6:02 PM, Tristan Anderson  
wrote:

I thought a load of laundry was the amount that could fit into a washing 
machine at one time.  Therefore, every washing machine that has ever been 
manufactured in the history of the world and every washing machine that will 
ever be manufactured between now and the end of time, no matter how big or how 
small, has a capacity of EXACTLY one load

Everyone's foot is always 1 foot long...

Uhh. No. It became a measurable unit in places.  like a foot.



Err in the old days .. it was the Kings Foot.
If you wanted to buy .. wait for a mature King, sell with a young King (smaller 
foot .. makes things look bigger).

Now the cubit ... that would be thePharaohs  forearm...

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 14, 2017, at 5:43 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Mappers can enter miles instead of kilometres .. so they too should be able 
> to enter the units they have into the capacity of the laundry machine.

Yea, because it is well known that they correlate, like C and F. 

The loads idea requires people to actually know what the ratio is for mapping 
and the data user to be able to show the correct unit for the user. Also, the 
load might vary a bit and not line up cleanly, so it might display a 1.2 load 
washer or something.

Maybe it is best to have a single unit (kg?) and have the data provider 
translate the information into loads, but it seems that mapping a million 
washing machines that are all labeled in one unit for one continent in its 
native unit is good for mappers to get it mapped correctly. 
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

> On Feb 13, 2017, at 7:50 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> I don't think that mapping the capacity of washing machines in campsite 
> laundry facilities is data that is useful in OSM.

Neither do I, it was an an aside about laundromats in general. 

That is why the extended campsite has them listed as an amenity of the camp. 

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

> On Feb 13, 2017, at 6:02 PM, Tristan Anderson  
> wrote:
> 
> I thought a load of laundry was the amount that could fit into a washing 
> machine at one time.  Therefore, every washing machine that has ever been 
> manufactured in the history of the world and every washing machine that will 
> ever be manufactured between now and the end of time, no matter how big or 
> how small, has a capacity of EXACTLY one load

Everyone's foot is always 1 foot long... 

Uhh. No. It became a measurable unit in places.  like a foot. 

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 14-Feb-17 01:30 AM, John Willis wrote:



Javbw

On Feb 13, 2017, at 3:10 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


laundry:top_loading:1_load=20 (if 'load' can be found as a size .. 
somewhere?)


laundry:top_loading:5_cu_ft=20
laundry:top_loading:6_lbs=20

laundry:top_loading:20_kg=20

laundry:front_loading:15_kg=8

laundry:shoe_washer=2


Great!

Uhh... sidewasher was my stupidity.
Front loader is the correct term.

All the US residential top-loading washing machines and the old 
laundromat ones I have seen I have seen all have agitators, the thing 
that sticks up in the center.


Most of the residential washers in Japan do not. Their drum is too 
narrow (40cm?) To have an agitator. The bottom of the drum spins (a 
very weak agitator), but there is no true column agitator.


http://www.cypick.com/item/10kg-auto-top-toshiba-washing-machine-mesin-basuh-refurbish-recondition-.html

 Some people want an agitator machine for washing heavily soiled 
clothes or cleaning cloths, so some laundromats have a single 
top-loading agitator in the corner here.


Maybe they are common throughout the world, but such it was the first 
time I have seen a small and agitator-free washing machine.


I think I had one 'agitator' machine that not only had a rotating 
central column but the drum too moved.. lots of things to ware out. 
Replaced with a front loader .. my cloths last a lot longer.
Not all agitators are central columns .. the hover twin tub has the 
agitator on a wall. These are popular where water is in short supply as 
the spin tub waste water can be put back into the wash tub thus saving 
water.


So I think the top loading/front loading should be a tag that can be 
used. Then if wanted further details on the machine could be detailed?
Personally ... I am usually just looking for a washing machine .. any 
washing machine to get the mud off!




Since there are varying styles of machines, and some are common one 
place and absent others, then I would like to tag them differently. 
And the idea of separating capacity seems good too. I suggest 
supporting the three common methods (kg/load/volume) because people 
will have no idea how to tag, interpret or understand the information. 
People tagging or looking for "load" won't know what a KG of laundry is.


Mappers can enter miles instead of kilometres .. so they too should be 
able to enter the units they have into the capacity of the laundry machine.
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 13-Feb-17 10:29 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


2017-02-13 11:50 GMT+01:00 Volker Schmidt >:


I don't think that mapping the capacity of washing machines in
campsite laundry facilities is data that is useful in OSM. It's
difficult to establish in the first place and the data is very
perishable. The machines have a very limited life span. Data
maintenance will be a serious problem.



industrial quality washing machines have an extended life span 
compared to home machines, as they are still built to be serviced, 
while home machines are built to be thrown away or have complex 
components replaced (instead of disassembling into small parts and 
replace only what has failed). Data maintance is possible for every 
kind of data, but it will done only for those data where people are 
interested in, if people are interested in tagging the details of 
washing machine availability, why not (I'd prefer to have these 
extended details on the laundry room, not on the whole campsite).




Usually the replacement machine would be of a similar size (other wise 
it won't fit the space).


If there is no suggested method of tagging it then mappers will use 
their own individual method to tag it and this leads to all sorts of 
problems.
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 13, 2017, at 3:10 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> laundry:top_loading:1_load=20 (if 'load' can be found as a size .. somewhere?)
> 
> laundry:top_loading:5_cu_ft=20
> laundry:top_loading:6_lbs=20
> 
> laundry:top_loading:20_kg=20
> 
> laundry:front_loading:15_kg=8
> 
> laundry:shoe_washer=2

Great!

Uhh... sidewasher was my stupidity. 
Front loader is the correct term. 

All the US residential top-loading washing machines and the old laundromat ones 
I have seen I have seen all have agitators, the thing that sticks up in the 
center. 

Most of the residential washers in Japan do not. Their drum is too narrow 
(40cm?) To have an agitator. The bottom of the drum spins (a very weak 
agitator), but there is no true column agitator.

http://www.cypick.com/item/10kg-auto-top-toshiba-washing-machine-mesin-basuh-refurbish-recondition-.html

 Some people want an agitator machine for washing heavily soiled clothes or 
cleaning cloths, so some laundromats have a single top-loading agitator in the 
corner here. 

Maybe they are common throughout the world, but such it was the first time I 
have seen a small and agitator-free washing machine. 

Since there are varying styles of machines, and some are common one place and 
absent others, then I would like to tag them differently. And the idea of 
separating capacity seems good too. I suggest supporting the three common 
methods (kg/load/volume) because people will have no idea how to tag, interpret 
or understand the information. People tagging or looking for "load" won't know 
what a KG of laundry is. 

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-13 11:50 GMT+01:00 Volker Schmidt :

> I don't think that mapping the capacity of washing machines in campsite
> laundry facilities is data that is useful in OSM. It's difficult to
> establish in the first place and the data is very perishable. The machines
> have a very limited life span. Data maintenance will be a serious problem.



industrial quality washing machines have an extended life span compared to
home machines, as they are still built to be serviced, while home machines
are built to be thrown away or have complex components replaced (instead of
disassembling into small parts and replace only what has failed). Data
maintance is possible for every kind of data, but it will done only for
those data where people are interested in, if people are interested in
tagging the details of washing machine availability, why not (I'd prefer to
have these extended details on the laundry room, not on the whole campsite).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Dave Swarthout]

"I thought a load of laundry was the amount that could fit into a washing
machine at one time.  Therefore, every washing machine that has ever been
manufactured in the history of the world and every washing machine that
will ever be manufactured between now and the end of time, no matter how
big or how small, has a capacity of EXACTLY one load. "

Me too. LOL

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Volker Schmidt <vosc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't think that mapping the capacity of washing machines in campsite
> laundry facilities is data that is useful in OSM. It's difficult to
> establish in the first place and the data is very perishable. The machines
> have a very limited life span. Data maintenance will be a serious problem.
>
> On 13 Feb 2017 10:04 a.m., "Tristan Anderson" <andersontris...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I thought a load of laundry was the amount that could fit into a washing
>> machine at one time.  Therefore, every washing machine that has ever been
>> manufactured in the history of the world and every washing machine that
>> will ever be manufactured between now and the end of time, no matter how
>> big or how small, has a capacity of EXACTLY one load.  If I am wrong,
>> please quantify how much is in one load, in any unit of measurement you
>> like: volume, mass or anything else, metric or imperial.  No search engine
>> can seem to give me a straight answer.
>>
>>
>> I see LG makes a "two-load" machine that can do two loads at once in
>> separate compartments (such as whites/colours) but that doesn't seem to be
>> what's referred to here.
>> --------------
>> *From:* Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* February 13, 2017 1:10 AM
>> *To:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan
>> sites
>>
>> On 13-Feb-17 03:42 PM, John Willis wrote:
>> >
>> > Javbw
>> >
>> >> On Feb 13, 2017, at 5:38 AM, Mark Wagner <mark+...@carnildo.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> That wouldn't work too well in the US.  Here, capacities are
>> >> typically measured in notional "loads": the average laundromat would
>> >> have a large number of "single-load" machines, a few "double-load" or
>> >> "triple-load" machines, and possibly a side-loading "five-load" machine
>> >> for things like quilts or sleeping bags.
>> > Since it can be converted to Kg, it could be normalized, or a US
>> tagging scheme used, since there are tons of laundromats in the US:
>> >
>> > Laundromat:US:1load_agitator_washer=20
>> > Laundromat:US:2load_agitator_washer=2
>> > Laundromat:US:5load_sidewasher=1
>> >
>> > I wonder what the rest of the world uses for laundry measurement -
>> pieces? Loads? Weight?
>>
>> I would think it is best to use the same practices used for other units
>> ...
>>
>> The default should be SI units ... like kilometre km for distance, but
>> other units like miles can be used if the unit is appended.
>>
>> Washing machines sizing looks like they use mass (kg) for some places
>> (UK, Australia, NZ), pounds for some (USA) and volume (cubic foot) in other
>> places (USA?)... so that is a bit confusing.
>>
>> See the web links below for examples of size units.
>>
>>
>> I would think that the same tag values should be used so
>>
>> laundry:top_loading:1_load=20 (if 'load' can be found as a size ..
>> somewhere?)
>>
>> laundry:top_loading:5_cu_ft=20
>>
>> laundry:top_loading:6_lbs=20
>>
>> laundry:top_loading:20_kg=20
>>
>> laundry:front_loading:15_kg=8
>>
>> laundry:shoe_washer=2
>>
>> --
>>
>> I have never heard the terms 'sidewasher' .. I assume this is what I call
>> front loading?
>> UK - front loader https://www.amazon.co.uk/Washi
>> ng-Machines-Front-Load/b?ie=UTF8=494926031
>> Amazon.co.uk: Front-Load - Washing Machines: Large Appliances
>> <https://www.amazon.co.uk/Washing-Machines-Front-Load/b?ie=UTF8=494926031>
>> www.amazon.co.uk
>> Online shopping for Front-Load - Washing Machines from a great selection
>> at Large Appliances Store.
>>
>>
>>
>> I note that front loaders are common in the domestic area .. but
>> commercially (in Laundromats) top loaders are more common.
>>
>> Agitator I have heard of .,.. but that is a 'top loader'?
>>
>> USA - front loader and to

Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Volker Schmidt]

I don't think that mapping the capacity of washing machines in campsite
laundry facilities is data that is useful in OSM. It's difficult to
establish in the first place and the data is very perishable. The machines
have a very limited life span. Data maintenance will be a serious problem.

On 13 Feb 2017 10:04 a.m., "Tristan Anderson" <andersontris...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> I thought a load of laundry was the amount that could fit into a washing
> machine at one time.  Therefore, every washing machine that has ever been
> manufactured in the history of the world and every washing machine that
> will ever be manufactured between now and the end of time, no matter how
> big or how small, has a capacity of EXACTLY one load.  If I am wrong,
> please quantify how much is in one load, in any unit of measurement you
> like: volume, mass or anything else, metric or imperial.  No search engine
> can seem to give me a straight answer.
>
>
> I see LG makes a "two-load" machine that can do two loads at once in
> separate compartments (such as whites/colours) but that doesn't seem to be
> what's referred to here.
> --
> *From:* Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* February 13, 2017 1:10 AM
> *To:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan
> sites
>
> On 13-Feb-17 03:42 PM, John Willis wrote:
> >
> > Javbw
> >
> >> On Feb 13, 2017, at 5:38 AM, Mark Wagner <mark+...@carnildo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> That wouldn't work too well in the US.  Here, capacities are
> >> typically measured in notional "loads": the average laundromat would
> >> have a large number of "single-load" machines, a few "double-load" or
> >> "triple-load" machines, and possibly a side-loading "five-load" machine
> >> for things like quilts or sleeping bags.
> > Since it can be converted to Kg, it could be normalized, or a US tagging
> scheme used, since there are tons of laundromats in the US:
> >
> > Laundromat:US:1load_agitator_washer=20
> > Laundromat:US:2load_agitator_washer=2
> > Laundromat:US:5load_sidewasher=1
> >
> > I wonder what the rest of the world uses for laundry measurement -
> pieces? Loads? Weight?
>
> I would think it is best to use the same practices used for other units ...
>
> The default should be SI units ... like kilometre km for distance, but
> other units like miles can be used if the unit is appended.
>
> Washing machines sizing looks like they use mass (kg) for some places (UK,
> Australia, NZ), pounds for some (USA) and volume (cubic foot) in other
> places (USA?)... so that is a bit confusing.
>
> See the web links below for examples of size units.
>
>
> I would think that the same tag values should be used so
>
> laundry:top_loading:1_load=20 (if 'load' can be found as a size ..
> somewhere?)
>
> laundry:top_loading:5_cu_ft=20
>
> laundry:top_loading:6_lbs=20
>
> laundry:top_loading:20_kg=20
>
> laundry:front_loading:15_kg=8
>
> laundry:shoe_washer=2
>
> --
>
> I have never heard the terms 'sidewasher' .. I assume this is what I call
> front loading?
> UK - front loader https://www.amazon.co.uk/Washing-Machines-Front-Load/b?
> ie=UTF8=494926031
> Amazon.co.uk: Front-Load - Washing Machines: Large Appliances
> <https://www.amazon.co.uk/Washing-Machines-Front-Load/b?ie=UTF8=494926031>
> www.amazon.co.uk
> Online shopping for Front-Load - Washing Machines from a great selection
> at Large Appliances Store.
>
>
>
> I note that front loaders are common in the domestic area .. but
> commercially (in Laundromats) top loaders are more common.
>
> Agitator I have heard of .,.. but that is a 'top loader'?
>
> USA - front loader and top loader https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=
> nb_sb_ss_i_5_10?url=search-alias%3Daps=
> washing+machine=washing+ma%2Caps%2C428=30REZUSOII599
>
>
>
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> Your email address: Your name (optional): You may enter a privacy password
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> messing with ...
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Tristan Anderson]

I thought a load of laundry was the amount that could fit into a washing 
machine at one time.  Therefore, every washing machine that has ever been 
manufactured in the history of the world and every washing machine that will 
ever be manufactured between now and the end of time, no matter how big or how 
small, has a capacity of EXACTLY one load.  If I am wrong, please quantify how 
much is in one load, in any unit of measurement you like: volume, mass or 
anything else, metric or imperial.  No search engine can seem to give me a 
straight answer.


I see LG makes a "two-load" machine that can do two loads at once in separate 
compartments (such as whites/colours) but that doesn't seem to be what's 
referred to here.


From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
Sent: February 13, 2017 1:10 AM
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

On 13-Feb-17 03:42 PM, John Willis wrote:
>
> Javbw
>
>> On Feb 13, 2017, at 5:38 AM, Mark Wagner <mark+...@carnildo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> That wouldn't work too well in the US.  Here, capacities are
>> typically measured in notional "loads": the average laundromat would
>> have a large number of "single-load" machines, a few "double-load" or
>> "triple-load" machines, and possibly a side-loading "five-load" machine
>> for things like quilts or sleeping bags.
> Since it can be converted to Kg, it could be normalized, or a US tagging 
> scheme used, since there are tons of laundromats in the US:
>
> Laundromat:US:1load_agitator_washer=20
> Laundromat:US:2load_agitator_washer=2
> Laundromat:US:5load_sidewasher=1
>
> I wonder what the rest of the world uses for laundry measurement - pieces? 
> Loads? Weight?

I would think it is best to use the same practices used for other units ...

The default should be SI units ... like kilometre km for distance, but other 
units like miles can be used if the unit is appended.

Washing machines sizing looks like they use mass (kg) for some places (UK, 
Australia, NZ), pounds for some (USA) and volume (cubic foot) in other places 
(USA?)... so that is a bit confusing.

See the web links below for examples of size units.


I would think that the same tag values should be used so

laundry:top_loading:1_load=20 (if 'load' can be found as a size .. somewhere?)

laundry:top_loading:5_cu_ft=20

laundry:top_loading:6_lbs=20

laundry:top_loading:20_kg=20

laundry:front_loading:15_kg=8

laundry:shoe_washer=2

--

I have never heard the terms 'sidewasher' .. I assume this is what I call front 
loading?
UK - front loader 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Washing-Machines-Front-Load/b?ie=UTF8=494926031
Amazon.co.uk: Front-Load - Washing Machines: Large 
Appliances<https://www.amazon.co.uk/Washing-Machines-Front-Load/b?ie=UTF8=494926031>
www.amazon.co.uk
Online shopping for Front-Load - Washing Machines from a great selection at 
Large Appliances Store.




I note that front loaders are common in the domestic area .. but commercially 
(in Laundromats) top loaders are more common.

Agitator I have heard of .,.. but that is a 'top loader'?

USA - front loader and top loader 
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_5_10?url=search-alias%3Daps=washing+machine=washing+ma%2Caps%2C428=30REZUSOII599



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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 13-Feb-17 03:42 PM, John Willis wrote:


Javbw


On Feb 13, 2017, at 5:38 AM, Mark Wagner  wrote:


That wouldn't work too well in the US.  Here, capacities are
typically measured in notional "loads": the average laundromat would
have a large number of "single-load" machines, a few "double-load" or
"triple-load" machines, and possibly a side-loading "five-load" machine
for things like quilts or sleeping bags.

Since it can be converted to Kg, it could be normalized, or a US tagging scheme 
used, since there are tons of laundromats in the US:

Laundromat:US:1load_agitator_washer=20
Laundromat:US:2load_agitator_washer=2
Laundromat:US:5load_sidewasher=1

I wonder what the rest of the world uses for laundry measurement - pieces? 
Loads? Weight?


I would think it is best to use the same practices used for other units ...

The default should be SI units ... like kilometre km for distance, but other 
units like miles can be used if the unit is appended.

Washing machines sizing looks like they use mass (kg) for some places (UK, 
Australia, NZ), pounds for some (USA) and volume (cubic foot) in other places 
(USA?)... so that is a bit confusing.

See the web links below for examples of size units.
 


I would think that the same tag values should be used so

laundry:top_loading:1_load=20 (if 'load' can be found as a size .. somewhere?)

laundry:top_loading:5_cu_ft=20
 
laundry:top_loading:6_lbs=20


laundry:top_loading:20_kg=20

laundry:front_loading:15_kg=8

laundry:shoe_washer=2

--

I have never heard the terms 'sidewasher' .. I assume this is what I call front 
loading?
UK - front loader 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Washing-Machines-Front-Load/b?ie=UTF8=494926031

I note that front loaders are common in the domestic area .. but commercially 
(in Laundromats) top loaders are more common.

Agitator I have heard of .,.. but that is a 'top loader'?

USA - front loader and top loader 
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_5_10?url=search-alias%3Daps=washing+machine=washing+ma%2Caps%2C428=30REZUSOII599



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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 13, 2017, at 5:38 AM, Mark Wagner  wrote:
> 
> 
> That wouldn't work too well in the US.  Here, capacities are
> typically measured in notional "loads": the average laundromat would
> have a large number of "single-load" machines, a few "double-load" or
> "triple-load" machines, and possibly a side-loading "five-load" machine
> for things like quilts or sleeping bags.

Since it can be converted to Kg, it could be normalized, or a US tagging scheme 
used, since there are tons of laundromats in the US:

Laundromat:US:1load_agitator_washer=20
Laundromat:US:2load_agitator_washer=2
Laundromat:US:5load_sidewasher=1

I wonder what the rest of the world uses for laundry measurement - pieces? 
Loads? Weight?  

Javbw 
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 13-Feb-17 07:38 AM, Mark Wagner wrote:

On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:28:17 +0900
John Willis  wrote:


Javbw

Side note:

I imagine laundromats could have a whole

Laundromat:foobar=n  scheme.

Laundromat:10kg_dryer=8
Laundromat:20kg_dryer=2
Laundromat:10kg_sidewasher=3
Laundromat:20kg_sidewasher=1
Laundromat:shoe_washer=1
Laundromat:shoe_dryer=1

Would be the closest laundromat to my house, Kg are approx.

That wouldn't work too well in the US.  Here, capacities are
typically measured in notional "loads": the average laundromat would
have a large number of "single-load" machines, a few "double-load" or
"triple-load" machines, and possibly a side-loading "five-load" machine
for things like quilts or sleeping bags.



Any links to where the information is in 'notional loads'?

This site gives the capacity in cubic foot 
http://washers.homeowl.com/saved_search/Washers-Made-in-USA


1 cubic foot is about 5 kg for washing machines.




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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Tristan Anderson]

All washing machines have a load capacity in kg.  It may not be printed on the 
front of the unit but it can be found in the owners' manual or online.  I would 
caution against the key "Laundromat:10kg_sidewasher" because they aren't always 
round numbers like that.  For example this triple-load machine is 13.6 kg:


http://www.macgray.com/pdf/specs/dexter/WCAD30KCS-12.pdf


Perhaps the following tagging scheme like this would be more appropriate:

Laundromat:sidewasher=5

Laundromat:sidewasher:capacity=13.6

Laundromat:sidewasher:colour=

Laundromat:sidewasher:cost=


And if there are multiple styles of machine with different capacities it could 
have a tag like Laundromat:sidewasher:1 and Laudromat:sidewasher:1:capacity etc.


It's a little complex but I'd imagine this scheme would work anywhere in the 
world.


From: Mark Wagner <mark+...@carnildo.com>
Sent: February 12, 2017 3:38 PM
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:28:17 +0900
John Willis <jo...@mac.com> wrote:

> Javbw
>
> Side note:
>
> I imagine laundromats could have a whole
>
> Laundromat:foobar=n  scheme.
>
> Laundromat:10kg_dryer=8
> Laundromat:20kg_dryer=2
> Laundromat:10kg_sidewasher=3
> Laundromat:20kg_sidewasher=1
> Laundromat:shoe_washer=1
> Laundromat:shoe_dryer=1
>
> Would be the closest laundromat to my house, Kg are approx.

That wouldn't work too well in the US.  Here, capacities are
typically measured in notional "loads": the average laundromat would
have a large number of "single-load" machines, a few "double-load" or
"triple-load" machines, and possibly a side-loading "five-load" machine
for things like quilts or sleeping bags.

--
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Mark Wagner]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 10:28:17 +0900
John Willis  wrote:

> Javbw
> 
> Side note: 
> 
> I imagine laundromats could have a whole 
> 
> Laundromat:foobar=n  scheme. 
> 
> Laundromat:10kg_dryer=8
> Laundromat:20kg_dryer=2
> Laundromat:10kg_sidewasher=3
> Laundromat:20kg_sidewasher=1
> Laundromat:shoe_washer=1
> Laundromat:shoe_dryer=1 
> 
> Would be the closest laundromat to my house, Kg are approx. 

That wouldn't work too well in the US.  Here, capacities are
typically measured in notional "loads": the average laundromat would
have a large number of "single-load" machines, a few "double-load" or
"triple-load" machines, and possibly a side-loading "five-load" machine
for things like quilts or sleeping bags.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11 Feb 2017, at 17:10, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> For the convenience store on a camp site I would happily use the shop key 
> whereas for the laundry facilities I would prefer something like
> washing_machine=yes|NUMBER
> dryer =yes|NUMBER
> In alternative, simply laundry=yes


laundry=yes could also be read as laundry service is offered (like hotels do, 
i.e. not you operating the machine)


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 12, 2017, at 8:30 AM, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
> 
> I think a subtag for dryers is appropriate and could be useful.

I agree!  The extended campground proposal has a separate tag for both. 

Side note: 

I imagine laundromats could have a whole 

Laundromat:foobar=n  scheme. 

Laundromat:10kg_dryer=8
Laundromat:20kg_dryer=2
Laundromat:10kg_sidewasher=3
Laundromat:20kg_sidewasher=1
Laundromat:shoe_washer=1
Laundromat:shoe_dryer=1 

Would be the closest laundromat to my house, Kg are approx. 

I have never really read up on the tagging scheme, maybe they do. 

Traditional Japanese residences have washing machines only and line-dry 
clothes. Even in the winter (snow on the ground, but sunny today) people have 
laundry out under deck covers or carports (so many houses have carports, almost 
none have garages for tax reasons). 
There are washing machines that dry 1/2 a load, and there are dryers for sale, 
but the "average" Japanese household doesn't have a dryer. My parents' US 
household hasn't line-dried anything in 25 years - regular household washers 
and driers in the US are giant compared to the small 7kg laundry /55L water 
washer we have here (they measure capacity in Kg of laundry, dunno how it is 
done elsewhere). There are "western" washers for sale, but they are exceedingly 
rare. 

So the laundromats in Japan have oversized  side-loading industrial washers for 
futons, as most houses can't wash futons, and usually there are more dryers 
than washers (at least here in suburbia), as when it is raining, people bring 
loads of wet laundry down to dry them. The large driers can handle ~20kg of wet 
laundry. 

Here is an average suburban Japanese coin-laundry on some blog: 
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/harukien1/9914343.html


Having the type of machine and its capacity and count, and specialty machines 
(agitator washing machines, sneaker washers, etc) are great. Agitator (with the 
center post) is very rare here, even at laundromats. Top-loading household ones 
don't have agitators, so what would be "standard" at a us laundromat 
(top-loading agitator machines) is a rare specialty machine at a Japanese Coin 
Laundry. Seems dryers are that way for you =} 

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Dave Swarthout]

@John, An observation:

It's a funny thing but since I began traveling a number of years ago, I
noticed that while dryers are quite common in the U.S., they are less
common in the rest of the world, especially in poorer countries. A very few
laundry shops here in Thailand have dryers, most do not. Probably 99% of
clothing in Thailand is dried outdoors in the sun. People who use automated
washers take their washed and still wet clothes home where they hang them
out to dry. That's not too practical in wintry climates, agreed, but
Americans use dryers even in the summer.

I think a subtag for dryers is appropriate and could be useful.

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 5:29 AM, John F. Eldredge 
wrote:

> Here in the USA, I have never seen a self-service laundry that did not
> have dryers, but I don't know whether that is true worldwide.  I suppose it
> is best to err on the side of caution and include a subtag for the presence
> of dryers.
>
> On February 11, 2017 8:18:27 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> On 11 Feb 2017, at 10:28, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
>>
>> shop=laundry
>> automated=yes
>> self_service=yes
>>
>> covers it nicely. In the U.S., we use the term laundromat and I would
>> much prefer to use that scheme but the established tag is shop=laundry.
>>
>>
>>
>> do we imply driers as well? Should we have a subtag?
>>
>> The staffed laundries often offer also dry cleaning, which I've never
>> seen in an automated one, and the wiki suggests a different main tag for
>> them: shop=dry_cleaning
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddry_cleaning
>>
>> IMHO, as apparently there are mixed types, it would be better to organize
>> this as subtags within the laundry tag, e.g. dry_cleaning=yes/no/only
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John F. Eldredge]

Here in the USA, I have never seen a self-service laundry that did not have 
dryers, but I don't know whether that is true worldwide.  I suppose it is 
best to err on the side of caution and include a subtag for the presence of 
dryers.




On February 11, 2017 8:18:27 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
 wrote:



sent from a phone


On 11 Feb 2017, at 10:28, Dave Swarthout  wrote:

shop=laundry
automated=yes
self_service=yes

covers it nicely. In the U.S., we use the term laundromat and I would much 
prefer to use that scheme but the established tag is shop=laundry.



do we imply driers as well? Should we have a subtag?

The staffed laundries often offer also dry cleaning, which I've never seen 
in an automated one, and the wiki suggests a different main tag for them: 
shop=dry_cleaning

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddry_cleaning

IMHO, as apparently there are mixed types, it would be better to organize 
this as subtags within the laundry tag, e.g. dry_cleaning=yes/no/only


cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

I think the individual tags in the extended camping proposal covers this. 

If there is a coin-op machine or two for campers to use, then tag the amenity 
on the campground's node/polygon  - the suggested washing_machine=yes dryer=yes 
tags. 

If there is some other scheme for mapping the machines and their job, I should 
be updated (like how people use vending+object to map a lot of different 
things). 

If it is some shop/building that services the larger community or provides it 
to a larger set of people, tag it as a shop=laundry. 

I can't imagine it is good to tag an individual machine or an amenity of larger 
building as a shop. 

Most large apartment complexes in San Diego have a small coin-op washer-dryer 
room. I would _never_tag that as shop=* anything. It is not a shop. It is for 
residents only. It shouldn't be in the tag space for a laundromat, or a million 
wrong locations will pop up when searching. 

I think it is difficult to map an amenity of a place with the tags we would use 
for shops. 

There is a difference between a vending machine and a cafe - though both serve 
coffee. 

Both should be available for tagging. 

Javbw

> On Feb 12, 2017, at 1:10 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> I would like to get this discussion back to my original question. I used 
> about 30 camp or caravan sites in the USA and most of them had self-service 
> coin-operated washers and dryers.

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 12-Feb-17 03:10 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote:
I would like to get this discussion back to my original question. I 
used about 30 camp or caravan sites in the USA and most of them had 
self-service coin-operated washers and dryers. These are services like 
toilets and convenience stores for their customers. You also find 
these in most US motels. The number of machines varied from one 
washing machine plus one dryer to five ore more, depending on the size 
of the site. In most cases they were in separate rooms labelled 
"Laundry". For the convenience store on a camp site I would happily 
use the shop key whereas for the laundry facilities I would prefer 
something like

washing_machine=yes|NUMBER
dryer =yes|NUMBER
In alternative, simply laundry=yes
All three could go on a campsite node or areas or on buildings on the 
campsite. I do not expect no-fee laundry facilities, differently from 
showers.


I would see these as sub tags for laundry=yes, much like self_service 
=/yes/no. /so they 
would be used with laundry=yes tag.
A warning example is the dryer key ... that feature can also be taken as 
a drying room in the UK, fruit drying in agriculture... by using it with 
the laundry tag the confusion is removed.
//To document them I would use the discussion page of laundry ... 
/http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:shop%3Dlaundry///This keeps 
them off the 'approved' status page of laundry. /

/
washing_machine=yes is implied in laundry=yes, as such I would not 
suggest it./


/


On 11 Feb 2017 10:30, "Dave Swarthout" > wrote:



On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> wrote:

Scattered around the UK in towns such as Saffron Walden are
'launderets' (this one is not in OSM, and I hesitate to put it
in as my memory of the location is not good, though Google
looks to the correct)  .. self service machines coin operated
(usually with very expensive coin operated soap powder -
better to buy that at the local supermarket). 



@warin, what is the point of your comment? Are you suggesting
adding shop=launderet and if so, why?



My point is that these things are not rare and can be found in most 
populated places, the names changes a bit as you can expect.



shop=laundry
automated=yes

I have little idea what automated=yes means .. where is it documented? 
It could mean that you put your washing in one machine and it 
automatically is washed, dried, and ironed from the one entry ... dream on.


self_service=yes

covers it nicely. In the U.S., we use the term laundromat and I
would much prefer to use that scheme but the established tag is
shop=laundry.


-- 
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Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Volker Schmidt]

I would like to get this discussion back to my original question. I used
about 30 camp or caravan sites in the USA and most of them had self-service
coin-operated washers and dryers. These are services like toilets and
convenience stores for their customers. You also find these in most US
motels. The number of machines varied from one washing machine plus one
dryer to five ore more, depending on the size of the site. In most cases
they were in separate rooms labelled "Laundry". For the convenience store
on a camp site I would happily use the shop key whereas for the laundry
facilities I would prefer something like
washing_machine=yes|NUMBER
dryer =yes|NUMBER
In alternative, simply laundry=yes
All three could go on a campsite node or areas or on buildings on the
campsite. I do not expect no-fee laundry facilities, differently from
showers.

On 11 Feb 2017 10:30, "Dave Swarthout"  wrote:

>
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Scattered around the UK in towns such as Saffron Walden are 'launderets'
>> (this one is not in OSM, and I hesitate to put it in as my memory of the
>> location is not good, though Google looks to the correct)  .. self service
>> machines coin operated (usually with very expensive coin operated soap
>> powder - better to buy that at the local supermarket).
>
>
> @warin, what is the point of your comment? Are you suggesting adding
> shop=launderet and if so, why?
>
> shop=laundry
> automated=yes
> self_service=yes
>
> covers it nicely. In the U.S., we use the term laundromat and I would much
> prefer to use that scheme but the established tag is shop=laundry.
>
>
> --
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
>
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Philip Barnes]

On Sat, 2017-02-11 at 16:28 +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Scattered around the UK in towns such as Saffron Walden are
> > 'launderets' (this one is not in OSM, and I hesitate to put it
> > in as
> > my memory of the location is not good, though Google looks to
> > the
> > correct)  .. self service machines coin operated (usually with
> > very
> > expensive coin operated soap powder - better to buy that at the
> > local supermarket). 
> 
> @warin, what is the point of your comment? Are you suggesting adding
> shop=launderet and if so, why?
> 
> shop=laundry
> automated=yes
> self_service=yes
> 
> covers it nicely. In the U.S., we use the term laundromat and I would
> much prefer to use that scheme but the established tag is
> shop=laundry.
> 

Makes sense it British English too. 

One I mapped locally 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3290672526#map=19/52.85607/-2.72189
ayers=N

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11 Feb 2017, at 10:28, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
> 
> shop=laundry
> automated=yes
> self_service=yes
> 
> covers it nicely. In the U.S., we use the term laundromat and I would much 
> prefer to use that scheme but the established tag is shop=laundry.


do we imply driers as well? Should we have a subtag? 

The staffed laundries often offer also dry cleaning, which I've never seen in 
an automated one, and the wiki suggests a different main tag for them: 
shop=dry_cleaning
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddry_cleaning

IMHO, as apparently there are mixed types, it would be better to organize this 
as subtags within the laundry tag, e.g. dry_cleaning=yes/no/only

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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Dave Swarthout]

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Scattered around the UK in towns such as Saffron Walden are 'launderets'
> (this one is not in OSM, and I hesitate to put it in as my memory of the
> location is not good, though Google looks to the correct)  .. self service
> machines coin operated (usually with very expensive coin operated soap
> powder - better to buy that at the local supermarket).


@warin, what is the point of your comment? Are you suggesting adding
shop=launderet and if so, why?

shop=laundry
automated=yes
self_service=yes

covers it nicely. In the U.S., we use the term laundromat and I would much
prefer to use that scheme but the established tag is shop=laundry.


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Dave Swarthout]

Agreed. I think shop=laundry is the correct tag.

If available only to campers, use an access tag. Add other tags as
appropriate for automated, attended, etc.


On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 3:28 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
>> I see on the wiki page
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site
>> the option
>> shop=laundry
>>
>> This does not seem to be appropriate to map caravan sites that offer
>> self-service coin-operated washing machines or dryers (and it seems not to
>> be in use anyway).
>>
>
> I lived for years in such a caravan site, feel free to see how I mapped
> it.  http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/36.16709/-95.86615
>
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 11-Feb-17 07:48 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 3:28 AM, Volker Schmidt > wrote:


I see on the wiki page
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site

the option
shop=laundry

This does not seem to be appropriate to map caravan sites that
offer self-service coin-operated washing machines or dryers (and
it seems not to be in use anyway).


I lived for years in such a caravan site, feel free to see how I 
mapped it. http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/36.16709/-95.86615


Scattered around the UK in towns such as Saffron Walden are 'launderets' 
(this one is not in OSM, and I hesitate to put it in as my memory of the 
location is not good, though Google looks to the correct)  .. self 
service machines coin operated (usually with very expensive coin 
operated soap powder - better to buy that at the local supermarket).
Sometimes you may find a 'supervisor' .. most of the time not. I think 
there is little difference between the two .. though usually the camping 
crowd are more friendly.
My memory of the location such places is vague .. while a good thing to 
use they are not something that I find that attractive, I tend to 
remember the town, where I staid, the people and attractions I found.


In the more populated parts of Australia and NZ you can find 
'Laundromats' .. similar to the UK ones but with a better climate.
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 3:28 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> I see on the wiki page
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site
> the option
> shop=laundry
>
> This does not seem to be appropriate to map caravan sites that offer
> self-service coin-operated washing machines or dryers (and it seems not to
> be in use anyway).
>

I lived for years in such a caravan site, feel free to see how I mapped it.
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/36.16709/-95.86615
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-09 23:36 GMT+01:00 David Bannon :

> I would think shop=laundry means there is  some sort of service provided
> at the campsite that involves someone else actually doing your laundry for
> you for a fee.




the wiki says it is used for both typologies:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dlaundry

"Might be self service coin operated, with service staff for drop off. Also
known as a "laundromat" or "launderette"

and suggests these subtags for distinction:

   - self_service =
   *yes/no* (often "coin operated")
   - laundry_service
   =*yes/no*
   (staff doing the actual washing)

Cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[David Bannon]

I would think shop=laundry means there is  some sort of service provided 
at the campsite that involves someone else actually doing your laundry 
for you for a fee.


As you say, thats not the same thing as having machines available at a 
camp for you to do your laundry. I would prefer something like 
laundry=yes|no|fee.


David



On 08/02/17 20:28, Volker Schmidt wrote:

I see on the wiki page
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site
the option
shop=laundry

This does not seem to be appropriate to map caravan sites that offer 
self-service coin-operated washing machines or dryers (and it seems 
not to be in use anyway).


Is there a common scheme that I have overlooked?



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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 09-Feb-17 01:41 PM, John Willis wrote:


Javbw


On Feb 8, 2017, at 6:50 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


The link you might be looking for is 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site

+1

You can't drive into a camp site and start using facilities for campers as a random 
visitor. It is not a "shop" open to the public operated by the camp site.
You can use a shop for visitors - but not amenities for paying customers.  A 
gift shop in a lobby, a restaurant operated by a hotel are shops operated as 
shops, intended for use by a wider set of people than the guests.



Depends.

 Certain camp sites in Australia allow people not staying to use facilities .. 
for a small charge.
Usually the shower and laundry are popular, particularly with long distance 
truck drivers.

Certain hotels in Africa allow people to camp and use their facilities .. again 
for a small fee.
These are popular as local camp sites are non existent and security is poor if 
'free camping'.


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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 8, 2017, at 6:50 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> The link you might be looking for is 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site

+1 

You can't drive into a camp site and start using facilities for campers as a 
random visitor. It is not a "shop" open to the public operated by the camp 
site. 
You can use a shop for visitors - but not amenities for paying customers.  A 
gift shop in a lobby, a restaurant operated by a hotel are shops operated as 
shops, intended for use by a wider set of people than the guests. 

It would be like shop=rental for the towel they loan to you poolside at a 
hotel, or shop=cafe for the coffeemaker in a break room, or shop=cleaning for 
the laundry service offered to guests at a hotel at the front desk. 

If I searched for dry cleaning and was directed to a hotel's laundry service 
for guests, I would be upset. Looking for a coin laundry/laundromat and being 
directed to the machine for campers behind a shed at a campsite is equally as 
wrong. 

The extended camp site proposal is great. 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Dave Swarthout]

I've used some of these in that situation:

shop=laundry
automated=yes
payment:cash=yes
access=customers
self_service=yes
laundry_service=no (if no attendant present - you must do-it-yourself)



On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 3:30 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 8 Feb 2017, at 10:37, Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:
> >
> > If it's a small washateria within a campsite, then I'd think that would
> > be an appropriate tag for that area, much the same as you might tag
> > shop=gift or perhaps shop=convenience for an area of a gift shop inside
> > a hotel.
>
>
> although a gift shop in the hotel seems quite convenient, shop=convenience
> doesn't seem right for those...
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8 Feb 2017, at 10:37, Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:
> 
> If it's a small washateria within a campsite, then I'd think that would
> be an appropriate tag for that area, much the same as you might tag
> shop=gift or perhaps shop=convenience for an area of a gift shop inside
> a hotel.


although a gift shop in the hotel seems quite convenient, shop=convenience 
doesn't seem right for those...

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Warin]

On 08-Feb-17 08:37 PM, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:

On 02/08/2017 03:28 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote:

I see on the wiki page
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site
the option
shop=laundry

This does not seem to be appropriate to map caravan sites that offer
self-service coin-operated washing machines or dryers (and it seems not
to be in use anyway).

Is there a common scheme that I have overlooked?

If it's a small washateria within a campsite, then I'd think that would
be an appropriate tag for that area, much the same as you might tag
shop=gift or perhaps shop=convenience for an area of a gift shop inside
a hotel.


The link you might be looking for is 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site

That has washing machines and dryers... 275 uses of washing_machine.




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Re: [Tagging] self-service laudry machines a camp and caravan sites

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 02/08/2017 03:28 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> I see on the wiki page
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site
> the option
> shop=laundry
> 
> This does not seem to be appropriate to map caravan sites that offer
> self-service coin-operated washing machines or dryers (and it seems not
> to be in use anyway).
> 
> Is there a common scheme that I have overlooked?

If it's a small washateria within a campsite, then I'd think that would
be an appropriate tag for that area, much the same as you might tag
shop=gift or perhaps shop=convenience for an area of a gift shop inside
a hotel.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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