Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Loui,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Loui Chang" 
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." ; "GTALUG Talk" 


Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;




On Thu 28 Jul 2016 13:51 -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:

I would need two portable backup hard drives (one on-site and one
off-site). I estimate a cost of $375 for a SCSI controller card 
together

with a (used) VXA tape drive. Plus the cost of tape cartridges, of
course. So I'll have to see what 2 x 2.5" portable HDDs will cost. 1 
TB

capacity drives should be sufficient.


Portable external usb hard drives are comically cheaper if you 
consider price

per terabyte.



That's good news. 


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Hugh,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" 
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." ; "GTALUG Talk" 


Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;




| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 

| - Original Message - From: "Russell Reiter" 



| > The hylafax site has a good list of Linux comparable modems.
| >
| > http://www.hylafax.org/site1/modems.html
| >
|
| Brilliant !!
|
| >From what I see at the site, this product looks very promising for 
my

| use:
|
| -- "HylaFAX is a telecommunication system for UNIX systems. It 
supports:
| ... transparent shared data use of the modem" which is exactly what 
I'm

| looking for (data use);

I don't think it is useful to you.

The point of HylaFAX is to support FAXing.  Conveniently, it allowed
non-FAX uses to share the same serial port.  But elsewhere you said
you didn't do any FAXing.  So there is no benefit in running HylaFAX.



So for me, HylaFAX is a cumbersome last-resort workaround, if I can't 
find any easier way to get a dial-up modem working under Linux.


 


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Clifford,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "CLIFFORD ILKAY via talk" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;




On 28/07/16 01:50 PM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
Interesting. And encouraging. Maybe I can hold out a while longer, 
and keep using dial-up with the new Linux PC, postponing the extra 
expense of DSL versus dial-up. I pay today $15 / mo. (+taxes) for 
dial-up access. My ISP (Start.ca) wants $40 / mo. (plus taxes) for 5 
Mbs DSL service.


If you are spending $15 per month on dial-up Internet, you are also 
spending something for your hard line. I was spending $60 per month my 
hard line until I realized everyone in my home had cell phones and had 
made the hard line superfluous. Your hard line plus the dial-up 
service probably will not cost appreciably more and may end up costing 
less than a DSL or cable Internet service. You will also have a much 
better user experience with that compared to dial-up.




I don't understand what you mean by "hard line".

I use no "hard line" apart from my landline telephone service over the 
telco's twisted copper pair. The dial-up modem connects througn this 
same telephone landline (twisted copper pair) service. I use no cell 
phone. And there's nobody else here.


What is "hard line" technology? Is this not just a generic term for DSL 
(over twisted coper pair) or cable or e.g. Bell Fibe?


When I switch to DSL, the connection is going to use the same twisted 
copper pair, with some fancy new interface at the telco central office 
end, where "my" twisted copper pair terminates. My ISP will provide and 
setup the DSL modem at my end of the twisted copper pair.


Your stated goal of comparing the dial-up experience on XP to Linux is 
really pointless unless you run the test on the same hardware hitting 
the same host at the same time. Of course a 12 year old machine with a 
crufty Windows XP installation running a browser that does not support 
modern web standards is going to be slower than a modern machine 
running any modern operating system running any modern browser. It 
seems like a lot of bother to prove something of little consequence.




My main purpose is not curiosity. It's to minimize the psychological 
stress of the switchover from the Win XP PC to the new Linux PC. Please 
see my reply to Lennart where I explain this.


If one of your concerns in sticking with dial-up is that you still 
want the XP machine to have Internet access, you could add a second 
network card to your new machine and have it act as a 
router/firewall/gateway for the XP machine, which is for the best 
anyway given that XP no longer gets security updates.




Once I have switched to using the new Linux PC as my live production 
system, I hope I never ever need to connect the old Win XP to the 
Internet.


You may be able to convert your Outlook mail to Thunderbird following 
this article.  Once you 
have converted, set up an IMAP server on the new Linux machine and 
store your mail in IMAP format.




I prefer to avoid all such complications like IMAP. I plan to continue 
to use the same POP3 email hosting service I use now, fetch the email to 
the local Thunderbird installation, and delete the mail from the POP3 
server.


I do not remember when Microsoft switched to the .docx and .xlsx 
formats. If the default file extension in Office 2003 is .doc and 
.xls, it should be quite painless to convert those files to 
Libre/OpenOffice. The newer file formats are a bit trickier but it 
usually works without any problems because most people do not use 
features of Word or Excel that causes problems. I have only run into 
issues with heavily formatted documents and with Excel macros.




In my Outlook Express mail store folder in the Win XP filesystem, I see 
only *.dbx files. I believe *.dbx is some kind of ancient FoxPro-like 
indexed file representation.


If Thunderbird can import a complete Outlook Express email folder 
structure, from a Linux directory containing a copy of the Outlook 
Express mail store folder (with all its *.dbx files) then the mail 
should transfer over easily. I do wonder about implications of the 
difference in text line end conventions, between Windows and Linux.


If Thunderbird cannot import the mail as I describe above, then what I 
would prefer to have, is a complete export of my Outlook Express emails, 
with each email in *.eml format, and the mail folder structure 
represented by a directory structure in the file system. This way I will 
have an open-standards-based archive of all my emails from the Win XP 
PC. Then I will need some kind of "loader" program that loads the 
equivalent email structure into Thunderbird, from this directory 
structure with *.eml files.


Outlook Express lets me save an 

Re: [GTALUG] GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Lennart,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Lennart Sorensen" 
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." ; "GTALUG Talk" 


Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] GTALUG - BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC


On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:50:00PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via 
talk wrote:
Mainly because I use dial-upon the Win XP system, and I don't want 
the
hassle of changing it to use DSL, before I get the new Linux PC. 
Also,

I'm curious to see if the experience with dial-up is better on Linux
than on Win XP.


I can't imagine anything that would make it better on Linux.  Web 
pages

are simply not designed with low bandwidth in mind these days.



I agree that dial-up is painfully slow loading many web pages. My 
experience used to be that web pages loaded slowly over dial-up. But 
they always used to load successfully. Over the years there's been a 
gradual degradation in page load reliability until today, when far too 
many pages just fail to load completely on the first attempt and I have 
to retry the load. My ISP (understandably) is not interested in finding 
out the cause of these problems.



I do plan, after the Linux PC is operational, to switch to DSL.


Well in that case, it would seem a waste to buy a modem that works 
with
linux at all.  If you already have one, that's different.  Dialup 
modems

are not that cheap these days due to lack of demand.



Here's the complication that motivates me to first, get a dial-up modem 
working on the new Linux PC, and then, switch the Internet link from 
dial-up to e.g. DSL.


Right now, I run my Internet life (email, web browsing) on the Win XP PC 
using dial-up.


If I switch to DSL before I set up the new Linux PC, then I'm going to 
have to update the Win XP PC to work with the DSL modem (e.g. seeing it 
as an Ethernet router). I really am not keen to mess around with 
changing the Windows XP PC to DSL from dial-up, when I'm planning to 
quit using the Win XP PC anyway.


Maybe I'm just a Nervous Nellie, but I would rather try first to get the 
Linux PC to work with a dial-up modem, so I can continue to use dial-up 
on the Windows XP PC for my live production email operations.


Once I have switched to using the new Linux PC for email and web 
browsing via dial-up modem, then I can comfortably upgrade my telco 
twisted copper pair from dial-up to DSL, and I only have to cope with 
getting the new Linux PC to work with DSL. And never bother to switch 
the Win XP PC over to use DSL.




--
Len Sorensen 


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Lennart,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve


- Original Message - 
From: "Lennart Sorensen" 
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." ; "GTALUG Talk" 


Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;



On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:51:33PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via 
talk wrote:

"Easy, fast, reliable" sounds pretty tempting to me.







I thought all modern tape drives were SAS these days.



They are but SAS is way overkill for my purposes.


Hmm, VXA, that used to be exabyte, which was 8mm helical scan.  After
dealing with DDS I would never trust helical scan for my data.  No 
way.

Wears out tapes so fast and so unreliable.  Well DDS was, although I
guess those were 4mm tapes.  It looks like VXA is better than that,
but I still see it listed as "The most reliable helical scan", not
"the most reliable tape format".



My experience hasn;t been so bad with DDS-4. The occasional hard read 
errors on verify phase of backup. A tape reformat usually fixes these. 
Or discard the tape and use a new one. They're inexpensive.



It's too bad LTO is rather expensive to buy a drive for.



Yes, too expensive. And LTO cartridges are too large for my liking.




My experience with USB drives is that 3.5" drives tend to fail when
transported, while 2.5" drives are much more durable, but slower and 
of

course smaller in capacity.



I'll gladly take a slower and smaller capacity 2.5" USB drive, to get 
durability.



Another annoyance with tape is that should your place burn down, you
now have to locate another tape drive of the right type to read your
backup again.  That can be a hassle depending on how popular the model 
is.

A USB drive is certainly a lot simpler that way being entirely self
contained.



Very good point.


--
Len Sorensen 


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Lennart,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Lennart Sorensen" 
To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." ; "GTALUG Talk" 


Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;



On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:49:29PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via 
talk wrote:

The first big porting task will be to convert my Outlook Express mail
folders (2.38 GB) to Thunderbird on Linux. And then start using the
Linux PC for my email.


Why am I thinking:

Setup an IMAP server, point outlook at it, copy mail folders there,
then connect other mail program at it and copy again.



Interesting idea. I would not want the complexity of setting up an IMAP 
server myself, but could use my existing email hosting service to 
provide the IMAP server.


I use POP3 for my email hosting. Just fetch the mail to the Outlook 
Express folder on the Win XP PC, and then delete the mail from the POP3 
server. Less exposure to "sniffing" by whoever. And there's absolutely 
no way I'm going to depend on any hosting service, to backup my precious 
2.38 GB of emails.


I am sure there is a good reason not to do it that way though.  I 
would

be surprised if thunderbird can't import from outlook express files
directly.



The reason for me not to do it [bulk transfer email via IMAP & 
Internet], is the slow bandwidth of my dial-up Internet connection. I 
know, I know, I should abandon dial-up for a faster connection. And I 
plan to. But not until the new Linux PC is fully operational, preferably 
using dial-up.


I will need to connect the existing Windows XP PC and the new Linux PC 
via direct Ethernet cable anyway, to transfer the Win XP HDD contents 
over to the new Linux PC. This will be the fastest way to bulk transfer 
the mail.


Maybe thunderbird can import from Outlook Express files. And that would 
be great.



Of course I keep my mail on the server anyhow, so it is already imap,
and I don't have local folders to move around, so I haven't done that.

--
Len Sorensen 


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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Hello Russell,

Thanks for your message.

My comments are inline below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
From: "Russell Reiter" 
To: "GTALUG Talk" ; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." 


Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP 
PC;



On Jul 28, 2016 1:48 PM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 


wrote:






However, I received (26 July 2016) a very disappointing quotation 
from

NCIX. Hugely expensive, with substitutions (and omissions). So be
assured, I am still open to building myself.


Just out of curiosity, do you mind if I ask what dollar amount hugely
expensive represents? While the business model has changed to single
purchase with full Windows integration, there are other options 
depending

on the budget.



It was hugely expensive because I missed the fact that it included 
Windows 7 (OEM) at $187.99.


Here's the pricing analysis repeated from a summary email I sent to the 
thread, before I fetched your email:


-   NCIX*   PC PartPicker**
-   -
CPU$269.99$249.25
CPU Cooler  $92.98 $79.95
Motherboard$289.99$228.98
Memory  $44.99 $75.98
-
Case   $144.99$129.99
Power Supply   $214.98$159.99
-
Solid State Drive  $135.70$156.99
Hard Drive  $67.99 $81.95
Optical Drive   $92.98 $86.98
-
Video Monitor  $167.98$167.92
Keyboard$15.98 $40.00
Mouse  (incl.) $10.00
-
Dialup Modem$54.58 $50.00
-
-

TOTAL1:   $1593.13   $1517.98
-
-

MS Windows 7   $187.99
Assemble & Test $49.98
Environ. Fees   $16.65
-
-

TOTAL2:   $1897.73
-
-

My point is, if NCIX can match the component pricing I can get, as 
reported by PCPartPicker (and NCIX does match that pricing), and if the 
NCIX price for assembly and test is reasonable (I consider $49.98 very 
reasonable). Then why would an old guy like me, with already too many 
projects ongoing, want to build my own PC? Where is there any 
significant money to be saved? Certainly there's no time to be saved.


By using NCIX, I'm not going to have to shop all over the place to 
source every component, order it, pay for it. I'm not going to have to 
enjoy the dubious pleasure of hair-pulling "logistics" receiving 
multiple separate deliveries by a variety of couriers from a variety of 
suppliers.


An off the shelf white box, given the times, is most usually able to 
run

Linux quite well. It is the bleeding edge, with the fastest newest
chipsets, and largest capacites where stumbling blocks arise, as some 
of

the others who respond to this thread have indicated.



Yes, I expect that I could maybe shave some cost by buying something on 
sale (because being discontinued) from the latest Dell flyer, with 
Windows 7 pre-installed. I ball-parked it once at a 10% saving with a 
plausible Dell desktop PC comparable to my proposed configuration.


But what then? The disk drive partitioning and boot setup very probably 
won't suit my partitioning needs or provide multi-boot capability for 
adding Linux. When I ordered the existing Dell Windows XP desktop in 
2004, the Dell sales agent cheerfully received and acknowledged my email 
specifying the disk drive partitioning. But of course the Dell build 
assembly line grunts thought that was a joke, and I had to do a lot of 
messing around to re-work the partitioning).


So, if I buy a white box (e.g. Dell) I'll have to wipe the HDD and start 
again, including a Windows 7 install. Way too much fussing around with 
Win 7 for me. I don't intend to get that involved with Win 7. It's just 
there in case I need some Win XP compatibility from a bare-metal boot of 
Win 7 (in case of problems with the Win 7 under KVM virtualization under 
Linux). Or maybe I will want to use Win 7 to play some DRM music or 
videos that Linux can't handle.


If I wipe the Dell-installed Win 7, Dell could possibly decline to 
support my Dell PC with it's wierd install of Windows 7. Even the Dell 
hardware warranty could be dishonoured.


If I can't get the white box vendor's ironclad assurance of hardware 
compatibility with Linux, I could wind up stuck with a PC I can't use. I 
agree it's a small risk. But the advent of "secure boot" and UEFI make 
me nervous, I understand that these are not yet supported under Linux.


So my compromise is to specify precisely the components I want (having 
carefully researched their compatibility with Linux) and then decide how 
to get the PC built from those components.



Russell
Sent from mobile.



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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Daniel Villarreal via talk]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Dear Mr. Petrie,

Good to see your inquiry on the list...

On 25/07/16 10:47 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> ... *BACKGROUND --  BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC*
> 
> ...  replace Dell XP SP3 PC with a new PC, booting Debian Linux 8, 
> with Win 7 set up to run under QEMU / KVM virtualization under
> Debian...
...
> *HOW TO BUILD THE NEW DEBIAN 8 PC ?*
...
> *1. BUILD IT MYSELF.* ... last resort.
> 
> *2. COMMERCIAL PC BUILDER.* ... in Canada.(preferably GTA)
> 
> Problem: ... commercial PC bulders to [be] competitive
> 
> *3. *** CREATIVE IDEA: GTALUG  ... member(s) build from
> components ... happy to pay
> 
...
> ... omitted a SCSI controller and tape drive, and speakers I will
> acquire later, after the base PC is working...
> 
> Many thanks to list members for taking the time to consider my
> email. Comments, questions welcome: *1.* On the proposed PC
> configuration, *2.* On the idea of GTALUG helping with the build
> project.
...
> Steve Petrie, P.Eng. ITS-ETO Consortium Oakville, Ontario, Canada 
> (905) 847-3253 apet...@aspetrie.net 

I can understand not necessarily wanting to work on this yourself. I
do not receive any consideration at all from the Canadian companies
(from the Falls) on my list, but I absolutely trust them to build the
very best and stand by their work... Please see my recommendations at
my blog...
https://youcanlinux.wordpress.com/company-recommendations/

It comes down to rock-solid reliability and the highest-quality
components. I have had the shop work on my computer years after
purchase. The customers see the value in this devotion to quality,
attention-to-detail, and total pride in their work.


Sincerely,
Daniel Villarreal
http://www.youcanlinux.org
youcanlinux at gmail.com
PGP key 2F6E 0DC3 85E2 5EC0 DA03  3F5B F251 8938 A83E 7B49
https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get=0xF2518938A83E7B49

P.S. If you still want to build it yourself or have GTALUG members
build a computer, you might consider sourcing the parts from this
company and even have them assemble the motherboard (proc, fan, RAM,
any ancillary cooling options you might want) and test so that you
have a reliable base system.

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Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Thanks to GTALUG Members,

for the last series of emails I fetched on this thread.

Many useful ideas and much interesting info. Copious snippets have been 
carefully collected into a text file.

* * *
* * *

I have reviewed the quotation I received from NCIX, and can report:

1. Contrary to my earlier assertion, NCIX in fact has included an item for:
   Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Edition 64Bit DVD SP1 OEM
   Price C$187.99 [Reg. C$214.98]

2. And the the (now corrected) NCIX total price for hardware components alone, 
seems reasonable:
   NCIX: $1593.13   PCPartPicker: $1517.98
   Caution: NCIX has made some hardware substitutions, so the total prices are 
only generically comparable.

I compared the sum of component prices, NCIX versus PCPartPicker, and NCIX is 
acceptably close to PCPartPicker.

Here is a summary of the component price comparison (all prices $C):
  -   NCIX*   PC PartPicker**
  -   -
  CPU$269.99$249.25
  CPU Cooler  $92.98 $79.95
  Motherboard$289.99$228.98
  Memory  $44.99 $75.98
  -
  Case   $144.99$129.99
  Power Supply   $214.98$159.99
  -
  Solid State Drive  $135.70$156.99
  Hard Drive  $67.99 $81.95
  Optical Drive   $92.98 $86.98
  -
  Video Monitor  $167.98$167.92
  Keyboard$15.98 $40.00
  Mouse  (incl.) $10.00
  -
  Dialup Modem$54.58 $50.00
  -
  -
   
  TOTAL1:   $1593.13   $1517.98
  -
  -

  MS Windows 7   $187.99
  Assemble & Test $49.98
  Environ. Fees   $16.65
  -
  - 
   
  TOTAL2:   $1897.73
  -
  -
Not an inexpensive PC. And not a souped-up gamer's PC. But one that I believe 
will run plenty fast and stay cool under 24/7 duty. With lots of expansion 
capacity for additional hardware, that will not stress the power supply or the 
cooling apparatus.

My plan now is to revise the Linux PC specification, taking into account the 
avalanche of advice I have received from GTALUG members. (e.g. increase RAM to 
16 GB from 8, drop the dial-up modem and source later, change HDD to Western 
Digital Black, etc.) 

Then I will ask NCIX for a revised quotation, confirm with NCIX a number of 
picky details (e.g. is the WIndows 7 DVD SP1 OEM at the latest SP level?, etc.) 
and get NCIX agreement on technical details of HDD partitioning (GPT) and boot 
setup (multi-boot, with Windows 7 installed; ready for a Linux (debian 8) 
drop-in installation.

* * *
* * *

I'm probably not going to be able respond to many more individual posts to this 
thread, but I will read any that follow with interest.

Will report back, upon conclusion of my negotiations with NCIX. The self-build 
option for the new Linux PC remains open, should NCIX be unable to satisfy the 
requirements.

Many thanks again to GTALUG !!

Best Regards,

Steve

* * *


Steve Petrie, P.Eng.

ITS-ETO Consortium
Oakville, Ontario, Canada
(905) 847-3253
apet...@aspetrie.net
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