Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-31 Thread Lennart Sorensen via talk 
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 08:19:01PM -0400, Anthony de Boer via talk wrote:
> Might be interesting to do some traffic analysis and find out what it
> actually does.
> 
> Most folk are behind a NAT device of some description or other,
> purporting to only allow outbound connections.  But it turns out that if
> at least one end is behind a really cheap NAT device, it's possible to
> trick it into thinking an inbound connection is outbound and get a
> session going.  See Wikipedia on NAT Traversal and Hole Punching.  Linux
> and BSD NAT implementations are too smart to fall for this, though, and
> denizens of this list might just have a leaning toward Linux devices.
> 
> There's a chance it would fall back to going via a public server if it
> can't open traversal between a pair of endpoints.

They document it here:

https://jami.net/establishing-peer-to-peer-connections-with-jami/

Seems if possible they do direct, using upnp to request a port if
needed and possible, otherwise they use TURN relay servers.

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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-30 Thread Anthony de Boer via talk 
Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 03:11:29PM -0400, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
> > If the call initiator mixes all the data for all the participants its not
> > really distributed. ...
> 
> jami certainly claims to be peer-to-peer and even claims to have less
> latency because everyone sends directly to everyone else.

Might be interesting to do some traffic analysis and find out what it
actually does.

Most folk are behind a NAT device of some description or other,
purporting to only allow outbound connections.  But it turns out that if
at least one end is behind a really cheap NAT device, it's possible to
trick it into thinking an inbound connection is outbound and get a
session going.  See Wikipedia on NAT Traversal and Hole Punching.  Linux
and BSD NAT implementations are too smart to fall for this, though, and
denizens of this list might just have a leaning toward Linux devices.

There's a chance it would fall back to going via a public server if it
can't open traversal between a pair of endpoints.

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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-30 Thread Lennart Sorensen via talk 
On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 03:11:29PM -0400, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
> Hmm.
> If the call initiator mixes all the data for all the participants its not
> really distributed.
> Its just a hosted service with floating hosts.
> It would be a real problem if you wanted to initiate a large meeting while
> having a bad internet connection.

jami certainly claims to be peer-to-peer and even claims to have less
latency because everyone sends directly to everyone else.

So I would think that implies any mixing happens on the clients.

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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-30 Thread Karen Lewellen via talk 
Really? granted my setup must be different, but I got no subscription 
request.  Still, what I found surprising is that anyone would use zoom 
for  public events,  it is not designed for that purpose, then  be 
surprised   when moose-feathers crash.
One sends invitations only,  or locks the event to sharing from anyone 
who is   not  the host, that sort of thing.
It is certainly not the fault of zoom as a platform  that those using it 
do not read directions.

Kare



On Mon, 30 Mar 2020, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:


On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 10:50 PM Glen Strom via talk  wrote:


If you're considering using Zoom, you need to be aware of a growing
problem with it--Zoombombing.

Troublemakers break into a session and disrupt it with porn, obscene
talk, and whatever else comes to their tiny, diseased minds.

You'd have to be sure you have it all locked down.

Here's a reference article in the New York Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/style/zoombombing-zoom-trolling.html


Reading the article requires a subscription. Oh well I can likely live without.

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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-30 Thread Marc Lijour via talk 
Jami: a few years ago a third-party study compared Skype and Jami.
Performance was comparable.

One thing to keep in mind. Jami being distributed, the initiator of the
call will mix on his computer for everyone else joining the call.

On Mon., Mar. 30, 2020, 09:01 Alvin Starr via talk,  wrote:

> On 3/29/20 7:33 PM, Marc Lijour via talk wrote:
>
> Jami.net
>
> Jami looks interesting and being distributed appeals to me.
>
> I wonder how well it works in the face of people using limited bandwidth
> connections with out traffic management.
>
> Zoom can do 100 with a reasonable subscription
>
> On Sun., Mar. 29, 2020, 19:20 90ur1 90ur1 via talk, 
> wrote:
>
>> I tried the free hangouts for  a non profit today.
>> We had about 15 participants.
>> Hangouts has it's limitations, we could not see more than 5 participants.
>> Raise hand feature not available.
>> Background noise when many people talk at the same time..
>>
>> Looking for a better solution.
>>
>> Gouri
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 9:57 PM James Knott via talk 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2020-03-26 03:10 PM, sean mancini via talk wrote:
>>> > How about a google hangout session?
>>>
>>> How many participants?  I believe Hangouts has a maximum of 10, unless
>>> you get some extra cost business package.
>>>
>>
> --
> Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (647)478-6285
> Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133al...@netvel.net   
>||
>
>
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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-30 Thread Alvin Starr via talk 

On 3/29/20 7:33 PM, Marc Lijour via talk wrote:

Jami.net


Jami looks interesting and being distributed appeals to me.

I wonder how well it works in the face of people using limited bandwidth 
connections with out traffic management.



Zoom can do 100 with a reasonable subscription

On Sun., Mar. 29, 2020, 19:20 90ur1 90ur1 via talk, > wrote:


I tried the free hangouts for  a non profit today.
We had about 15 participants.
Hangouts has it's limitations, we could not see more than 5
participants.
Raise hand feature not available.
Background noise when many people talk at the same time..

Looking for a better solution.

Gouri

On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 9:57 PM James Knott via talk
mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:

On 2020-03-26 03:10 PM, sean mancini via talk wrote:
> How about a google hangout session?

How many participants?  I believe Hangouts has a maximum of
10, unless
you get some extra cost business package.



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al...@netvel.net  ||

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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-30 Thread Alvin Starr via talk 

On 3/30/20 6:48 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 10:50 PM Glen Strom via talk  wrote:

If you're considering using Zoom, you need to be aware of a growing
problem with it--Zoombombing.

Troublemakers break into a session and disrupt it with porn, obscene
talk, and whatever else comes to their tiny, diseased minds.

You'd have to be sure you have it all locked down.

Here's a reference article in the New York Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/style/zoombombing-zoom-trolling.html


Reading the article requires a subscription. Oh well I can likely live without.



You can read a limited number of articles per month.
But Glen's description pretty well covers the article so your not 
missing much.


here are some  observations on my limited interaction with video 
conferencing.


   Webex: I have had lots of luck with Webex ...  all bad. I got to the
   point where I would refuse to join a webex on anything other than a
   telephone.

   Google Hangouts: They worked reasonably well but of late I cannot
   get audio to work properly on any of my linux systems. My major
   client has moved to ring-central because of a 50 participant limit
   on Hangouts.

   Microsoft Teams Meeting: It seems to work reasonably well for small
   numbers. I have not been part of a large conference so I am not sure
   how well it scales.


Since we are an open-source(ish) community I would suggest that we try 
and find an open-source solution.


It may be worth picking a couple of possible solutions and then try 
running meetings with each one and rate the quality.





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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-30 Thread o1bigtenor via talk 
On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 10:50 PM Glen Strom via talk  wrote:
>
> If you're considering using Zoom, you need to be aware of a growing
> problem with it--Zoombombing.
>
> Troublemakers break into a session and disrupt it with porn, obscene
> talk, and whatever else comes to their tiny, diseased minds.
>
> You'd have to be sure you have it all locked down.
>
> Here's a reference article in the New York Times.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/style/zoombombing-zoom-trolling.html
>
Reading the article requires a subscription. Oh well I can likely live without.

Regards
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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-29 Thread Glen Strom via talk 
If you're considering using Zoom, you need to be aware of a growing
problem with it--Zoombombing.

Troublemakers break into a session and disrupt it with porn, obscene
talk, and whatever else comes to their tiny, diseased minds.

You'd have to be sure you have it all locked down.

Here's a reference article in the New York Times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/style/zoombombing-zoom-trolling.html


-- 
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glenst...@teksavvy.com
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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-29 Thread Marc Lijour via talk 
Jami.net

Zoom can do 100 with a reasonable subscription

On Sun., Mar. 29, 2020, 19:20 90ur1 90ur1 via talk,  wrote:

> I tried the free hangouts for  a non profit today.
> We had about 15 participants.
> Hangouts has it's limitations, we could not see more than 5 participants.
> Raise hand feature not available.
> Background noise when many people talk at the same time..
>
> Looking for a better solution.
>
> Gouri
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 9:57 PM James Knott via talk 
> wrote:
>
>> On 2020-03-26 03:10 PM, sean mancini via talk wrote:
>> > How about a google hangout session?
>>
>> How many participants?  I believe Hangouts has a maximum of 10, unless
>> you get some extra cost business package.
>>
>> ---
>> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
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>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-29 Thread 90ur1 90ur1 via talk 
I tried the free hangouts for  a non profit today.
We had about 15 participants.
Hangouts has it's limitations, we could not see more than 5 participants.
Raise hand feature not available.
Background noise when many people talk at the same time..

Looking for a better solution.

Gouri


On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 9:57 PM James Knott via talk 
wrote:

> On 2020-03-26 03:10 PM, sean mancini via talk wrote:
> > How about a google hangout session?
>
> How many participants?  I believe Hangouts has a maximum of 10, unless
> you get some extra cost business package.
>
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-29 Thread Digiital aka David via talk 
Another option is ; https://jitsi.org/



On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 9:57 PM James Knott via talk 
wrote:

> On 2020-03-26 03:10 PM, sean mancini via talk wrote:
> > How about a google hangout session?
>
> How many participants?  I believe Hangouts has a maximum of 10, unless
> you get some extra cost business package.
>
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-26 Thread James Knott via talk 

On 2020-03-26 03:10 PM, sean mancini via talk wrote:
How about a google hangout session? 


How many participants?  I believe Hangouts has a maximum of 10, unless 
you get some extra cost business package.


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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-26 Thread Karen Lewellen via talk 

how about zoom?
At least that way people can choose  to call in or do video.
Thing about google is the privacy sacrifice..among other factors.



On Thu, 26 Mar 2020, sean mancini via talk wrote:


How about a google hangout session?

On Thu., Mar. 26, 2020, 2:23 p.m. Christopher Browne, 
wrote:


The ongoing COVID-19 problem has made it impossible to hold
our monthly meetings at Ryerson.

Our meetings are held at Ryerson University; the University has
declared [1] that, to help diminish the spread of the virus, they are
eliminating all discretionary activities on (and off) campus until May
1, 2020.  GTALUG certainly falls in the "discretionary activity"
category, therefore we do not have availability of that space.  It is,
of course, entirely likely that the May 1 date will shift as the situation
evolves.

Further, the Ontario Government has banned getting together in
groups of 50 or more [2] (it would be no surprise for that to go down
further), and in view of the risks of the virus, it would not be at all
responsible for GTALUG to attempt to shift to other locations;
that would not fit well with the "social and physical distancing"
concept in use to try to diminish spread of the virus.

We are trying to see what we can do about alternative mechanisms, so
that discussions may take place online.  The mailing list remains
active, of course; we hope to see more ideas emerge over the next
couple of weeks.

[1]
https://www.ryerson.ca/news-events/news/2020/03/president-mohamed-lachemi-announces-universitys-plans-to-deal-with-covid-19/
[2] https://www.ontario.ca/page/2019-novel-coronavirus
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[GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-26 Thread Christopher Browne via talk 
The ongoing COVID-19 problem has made it impossible to hold
our monthly meetings at Ryerson.

Our meetings are held at Ryerson University; the University has
declared [1] that, to help diminish the spread of the virus, they are
eliminating all discretionary activities on (and off) campus until May
1, 2020.  GTALUG certainly falls in the "discretionary activity"
category, therefore we do not have availability of that space.  It is,
of course, entirely likely that the May 1 date will shift as the situation
evolves.

Further, the Ontario Government has banned getting together in
groups of 50 or more [2] (it would be no surprise for that to go down
further), and in view of the risks of the virus, it would not be at all
responsible for GTALUG to attempt to shift to other locations;
that would not fit well with the "social and physical distancing"
concept in use to try to diminish spread of the virus.

We are trying to see what we can do about alternative mechanisms, so
that discussions may take place online.  The mailing list remains
active, of course; we hope to see more ideas emerge over the next
couple of weeks.

[1]
https://www.ryerson.ca/news-events/news/2020/03/president-mohamed-lachemi-announces-universitys-plans-to-deal-with-covid-19/
[2] https://www.ontario.ca/page/2019-novel-coronavirus
-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-26 Thread sean mancini via talk 
How about a google hangout session?

On Thu., Mar. 26, 2020, 2:23 p.m. Christopher Browne, 
wrote:

> The ongoing COVID-19 problem has made it impossible to hold
> our monthly meetings at Ryerson.
>
> Our meetings are held at Ryerson University; the University has
> declared [1] that, to help diminish the spread of the virus, they are
> eliminating all discretionary activities on (and off) campus until May
> 1, 2020.  GTALUG certainly falls in the "discretionary activity"
> category, therefore we do not have availability of that space.  It is,
> of course, entirely likely that the May 1 date will shift as the situation
> evolves.
>
> Further, the Ontario Government has banned getting together in
> groups of 50 or more [2] (it would be no surprise for that to go down
> further), and in view of the risks of the virus, it would not be at all
> responsible for GTALUG to attempt to shift to other locations;
> that would not fit well with the "social and physical distancing"
> concept in use to try to diminish spread of the virus.
>
> We are trying to see what we can do about alternative mechanisms, so
> that discussions may take place online.  The mailing list remains
> active, of course; we hope to see more ideas emerge over the next
> couple of weeks.
>
> [1]
> https://www.ryerson.ca/news-events/news/2020/03/president-mohamed-lachemi-announces-universitys-plans-to-deal-with-covid-19/
> [2] https://www.ontario.ca/page/2019-novel-coronavirus
> --
> Chris Browne
> ---
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> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/announce
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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-26 Thread Christopher Browne via talk 
On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 14:42, Rouben via talk  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Long-time lurker here.
>
> I’d be happy to provide virtual hosting for GTA LUG proceedings and
> meetings via Zoom or MS Teams. I work at UofT and I believe I can get GTA
> LUG meetings hosted on our infrastructure.
>
> Alternatively, if we can get sponsored (or have other means/resources
> available) we could organize a free/libre based solution to hold virtual
> meetings.
>
> Thoughts?
>

Evan has already weighed in with availability of a Zoom 'room', which the
board has used a fair bit for board meetings, but it's surely a fine thing
to have options.

Our last board meeting we used the "libre" option, Jitsi, for which Alex
has set up a VM.  Alex seems to be proposing to spin up an instance of
that.  I suggest getting in on the conversation about that.

To my mind, having more possible solutions is better than having fewer,
although we'll need to pick something specific pretty soon :-).
-- 
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question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Re: [GTALUG] [GTALUG-Announce] GTALUG: COVID-19 Impact

2020-03-26 Thread Rouben via talk 
Hi,

Long-time lurker here.

I’d be happy to provide virtual hosting for GTA LUG proceedings and
meetings via Zoom or MS Teams. I work at UofT and I believe I can get GTA
LUG meetings hosted on our infrastructure.

Alternatively, if we can get sponsored (or have other means/resources
available) we could organize a free/libre based solution to hold virtual
meetings.

Thoughts?

Rouben

On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 14:23 Christopher Browne  wrote:

> The ongoing COVID-19 problem has made it impossible to hold
> our monthly meetings at Ryerson.
>
> Our meetings are held at Ryerson University; the University has
> declared [1] that, to help diminish the spread of the virus, they are
> eliminating all discretionary activities on (and off) campus until May
> 1, 2020.  GTALUG certainly falls in the "discretionary activity"
> category, therefore we do not have availability of that space.  It is,
> of course, entirely likely that the May 1 date will shift as the situation
> evolves.
>
> Further, the Ontario Government has banned getting together in
> groups of 50 or more [2] (it would be no surprise for that to go down
> further), and in view of the risks of the virus, it would not be at all
> responsible for GTALUG to attempt to shift to other locations;
> that would not fit well with the "social and physical distancing"
> concept in use to try to diminish spread of the virus.
>
> We are trying to see what we can do about alternative mechanisms, so
> that discussions may take place online.  The mailing list remains
> active, of course; we hope to see more ideas emerge over the next
> couple of weeks.
>
> [1]
> https://www.ryerson.ca/news-events/news/2020/03/president-mohamed-lachemi-announces-universitys-plans-to-deal-with-covid-19/
> [2] https://www.ontario.ca/page/2019-novel-coronavirus
> --
> Chris Browne
> ---
> GTALUG Announce mailing list
> annou...@gtalug.org
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/announce

-- 
Rouben
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