Re: [Talk-cz] Aplikace pro pořizování základních dat v terénu

> Přesnost závisí na HW v zařízení - tablety obecně bývají méně přesné, se > Samsungem S5 jsem v > otevřené krajině s přesností +-1m, ve městě +-5m (se starou Xperií jsem byl > rád za +-10m) Proto jsem taky psal to 60CSx a o externich modulech typu Garmin GLO (nicmene teda subjetivne GLO ma

[Talk-pt] Validade de intersecções entre vias

Ora viva. Recentemente além do traçado de novos dados cartográficos de relevos (estradas. pontos, edificios, etc...), tenho me preocupado em assegurar que se mantêm uma certa correcção dos dados existentes (Quality assurance). A par desta minha preferência, quem tem estado atento a uns emails

Re: [Talk-TW] Best Practices 及其他重要頁面的中文翻譯?

大感謝 :-) 昨天確定選課人數只有15人~ 差一點就要關課，好險! 看來不用挖太大坑 :-) 那就麻煩 Raylin 挖這兩坑囉： https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/How_We_Map (Category 那一頁學生好像幫不太上忙.. 看著辦吧) -- 校園P2P是否合法? 請搜尋『windows 10 打臉教育部』 Chao-Kuei Hung 洪朝貴 在 2016年2月24日 下午4:08，Dennis Raylin Chen

[Talk-GB] Think I've finished 'LD'

Just need robert to refresh and I think all the schools are in. However I did get one which will probably be missed. The 'Powys Pupil Referral Unit' would seem to be accommodated within county hall. I've added a node currently with all the details, but this is a good example of a school within

Re: [Talk-cz] WeeklyOSM CZ 291

On Wed 2016-03-02 10:55:01, Tom Ka wrote: > Ahoj, je dostupné vydání 291 týdeníku weeklyOSM: > > http://www.weeklyosm.eu/cz/archives/6924 > > Téma čísla: opening_hours – pozor na středník > > * Tagy s odkazy na wikipedii. > * OSM v Mexiku 2006-2015. > * Otevřená data o víně. > * 32bit ID pro

Re: [Talk-cz] Polygon generator

No ja si to trochu upravil na {{nominatimArea:"Czech Republic"}} (._; )->.boundaryarea; relation(area.boundaryarea)["boundary"="administrative"] ["admin_level"="4"]; (._;>;);out meta; Asi mam neco spatne. http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/eKq Ale jak vybrat jen oblast uvnitr, to nevim... Dne

[Talk-it] Tag per negozio granaglie e derivati

Ciao, Dalle mie parti (FVG) ci sono parecchie attività commerciali (es. Molino Pinco Pallino, Agraria Paolino Paperino...) che principalmente macinano granaglie (in sede o fuori) e vendono direttamente alla clientela il prodotto originale (grano, orzo...) o i derivati (farina, crusca...). Oltre a

Re: [OSRM-talk] osrm-extract taking hours to complete

Hi, On 03/02/2016 09:03 PM, Bjorn Madsen wrote: > I added a high speed SSD and pointed the .stxxl towards that to deal > with the swap slowdown. That bought me a drop in processing time from 12 > hrs -> 3-4 hrs. > > osrm@mat4:~/osrm-backend$ cat .stxxl >

Re: [Talk-it] Tag x aereo dismesso

Se ne trovano anche in Italia aerei taggati così, vecchi modelli rimessi a nuovo, in qualche rotonda stradale ad esempio. Un'alternativa per un aereo non esposto ma semplicemente abbandonato potrebbe essere qualche man_made=* tipo man_made=aircraft (1 in taginfo) oppure man_made=plane, di questo

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Need help for a mapathon campus géo - 16th April 2016

Hi Joost, I'm ready to contribute to this missing map event. I subcribed to the event in Namur. I might be there all day if needed. I'll check the hackpad from time to time to see where I can help. I already presented OSM a few times, so I can make a presentation if needed. Cheers, Julien

Re: [Talk-it] Mappare reperti bellici

Può darsi sia stato già mappato qualcosa del genere in siti della prima o seconda guerra mondiale, non trovo però al momento. L'autore del sito che hai linkato comunque è un personaggio, lo avevo conosciuto un po' di anni fa, puoi provare anche a contattarlo, magari potrebbe essere interessato

Re: [Talk-cz] Polygon generator

Ahoj, nevím, jestli tomu rozumím správně, ale k tomu seznamu relací: Když si vezmu Českou republiku: http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/51684 tak součástí relace jsou i další relace s rolí "subarea" * Relace Severozápad (435516) (http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/435516) jako

Re: [Talk-cz] Wiki stránka 'Veřejná hromadná doprava v ČR' přílš velká pro expanzi šablony

Zdravim, nejednodussi bude vytvorit pro kazde mesto (aleson kazdy kraj) podstranku. Pokud nejste administratorem wiki, tak se tohle neobejde (a obejde se to pouze navysenim hodnoty $wgMaxArticleSize). Tahle hodnota se nebere ze zdrojove velikosti, ale z celkove velikosti vyrendrovane stranky a

Re: [OSRM-talk] osrm-extract taking hours to complete

Hi Kieran, I added a high speed SSD and pointed the .stxxl towards that to deal with the swap slowdown. That bought me a drop in processing time from 12 hrs -> 3-4 hrs. osrm@mat4:~/osrm-backend$ cat .stxxl *disk=/mnt/tmp/stxxl,40,syscall* osrm@mat4:~/osrm-backend$ lsblk NAMEMAJ:MIN RM

[Talk-cz] Polygon generator

Zdravim, pro Geoget (program na spravu kesek) jsem si napsal https://github.com/PavelD/Osm2GGpoly - script, ktery by mel vygenerovat adresare s polygonsma, ktere jsou pouzit v Geogetu. V adresari data je zpracovano par statu, aby si nahodny nalezce udelal predstavu, jak by mel script fungovat.

Re: [Talk-us] Strategy for Naming Parts of a Large Park

The individual areas are generally nodes tagged leisure=park with names like "Patapsco Valley State Park - McKeldin Area". The whole park-in-a-park thing feels a little off to me, but it does get the names rendered on the default map. :-/ This sounds similar to what in our California State

[Talk-cz] Wiki stránka 'Veřejná hromadná doprava v ČR' přílš velká pro expanzi šablony

Ahoj, kvůli novým linkám v MHD v Ostravě jsem zaktualizoval wiki stránku Veřejná hromadná doprava v ČR [1], která se generuje dle skriptu [2]. Problém je, že pro posledních cca 20% relací se správně nevytváří odkazy, ale pouze se vloží název šablony (Template:Relation), ze které se tyto odkazy

[OSM-co] Fwd: [HOT] Fwd: Newsletter IODC16

Estimados, para su información envío abajo evento de interés para esta comunidad. Saludos, Humberto Yances -- Forwarded message -- From: Tyler Radford Date: 2016-03-02 13:37 GMT-05:00 Subject: [HOT] Fwd: Newsletter IODC16 To: hot

Re: [Talk-es] Fwd: Consulta sobre mapa de barreras arquitectónicas en OSM

Hola a todos Muchísimas gracias a todos los que os habéis tomado las molestias en responderme. Por el momento tengo trabajo por delante para madurar nuestro trabajo y ver el enfoque y alcance que le damos, pero tras leer vuestros correos estoy muy emocionado por ver que A) por fin podré aunar

Re: [Talk-es] Fwd: Consulta sobre mapa de barreras arquitectónicas en OSM

Hola Carlos, La verdad es que ya te han contestado en casi todo y solo escribo para alegrarme en saber que van apareciendo OSMappers por Zaragoza, darte la bienvenida y si quieres podemos aprovechar para hacer alguna mapping party que te pueda ser de utilidad a tí y a la comunidad para esos

Re: [OSRM-talk] osrm-extract taking hours to complete

Hi Patrick, Just wanted to ping you off-list. I just had a question about your update processhow often if at all do you update your PBF data, and how do you manage the process? We're thinking of just setting a cron job to download and extract the new PBF every weekend to a temporary

Re: [OSRM-talk] osrm-extract taking hours to complete

Hi Patrick, That makes sense then. It's obvious the process is just going to take upwards of 8-10 hours for us in that case. Thanks for the help. Kind regards, Kieran Caplice On 02/03/16 17:01, Patrick Niklaus wrote: Hey Kieran, there have been a lot of structural changes (e.g. moving

Re: [OSRM-talk] osrm-extract taking hours to complete

Hey Kieran, there have been a lot of structural changes (e.g. moving code from osrm-prepare into osrm-extract) that probably invalidate that numbers. Also we support 64bit OSM ids now, which sadly uses a lot more disk space. I think stxxl need like 200GB. I think on our setup we have a

Re: [Talk-se] Open Data Day Stockholm

Ingen specifik, men Tommy Bylund (tommy.byl...@trafikverket.se) var den som svarade om att de valt CC-BY, och borde väl hålla i något relevant. Vore kul om någon kom :-) /Per Eric -- ^): Per Eric Rosén http://rosnix.net/~per/ / p...@rosnix.net GPG 7A7A BD68 ADC0 01E1 F560 79FD 33D1 1EC3

Re: [OSM-talk] SotM 2016 Accomodation

I just had a look at the AirBnB options in Brussels, and it looks like there is plenty. I randomly found an apartment for 3 people for 30 euro per night, at five minutes walking from the venue. 2016-03-01 10:03 GMT+01:00 Stephan Knauss : > On 01.03.2016 08:04, Jochen

[OSRM-talk] osrm-extract taking hours to complete

Hello, I'm currently extracting the planet PBF (~31 GB), and it's been running for hours. I notice in the "Running OSRM" wiki page, it says " On a Core i7 with 8GB RAM and (slow) 5400 RPM Samsung SATA hard disks it took about 65 minutes to do so from a PBF formatted planet", which is making

[Talk-it] Transit.land un catalogo di dati sui trasporti che espone i dati anche tramite API

Ciao, ho da poco pubblicato un post su Transit.land. Ve lo segnalo sia perché mi sembra un progetto di interesse, sia perché una delle query che è possibile fare tramite le API che espone

Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Cartographie des réseaux urbains de bus, journée #HackFrancophonie

Je connaissais votre site et étant Héraultais d'origine je soutien avec plaisir tout ce que fait 3Liz ;) mais, pour les mêmes raison que uMap, j'ai trouvé que la plateforme de MapaNica était plus adequate. Le site est simplement fait avec une optique spécialisée "transport en commun" et rien

Re: [Talk-GB] This evening: Night school - Status report

On 02/03/16 16:04, Brian Prangle wrote: > There is a tagging schema for indoor mapping and there'sOpen Level Up > > for viewing > > The url shows an example mappamercia is working on - not yet finished I > hasten to add > >

Re: [Talk-GB] This evening: Night school - Status report

Hi Lester There is a tagging schema for indoor mapping and there's Open Level Up for viewing The url shows an example mappamercia is working on - not yet finished I hasten to add Not perfect as a schema ut it's the best we've

Re: [OSM-talk-fr] JOSM et angles

Du coup, comme ça marche chez vous j'ai cherché un peu, j'ai trouvé à bidouiller avec le clic droit dans la barre d'état en bas. J'ai remis le raccourci d'aplomb dans les options, mais même après redémarrage, il ne veut toujours pas le prendre en compte… Je creuserai à l'occasion. JB Le

Re: [Talk-br] Facebook can map more of Earth in a week than we have in history

Junte grana para comprar toneladas de imagens da Digital Globe + um bom departamento de marketing para escrever um press release cheio de termos bonitos/fodásticos e pronto, temos o Facebook fazendo algo supostamente revolucionário. Mas, como disse o *Peter* Krauss, é algo que já é feito a trancos

[Talk-hr] OpenStreetMap Hrvatska neformalno druženje 2016

U četvrtak 03.03.2016. u 18:00, pivnica Zlatni Medo, Savska cesta 56. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=45.79963=15.96205#map=19/45.79963/15.96205=N Nalazimo se na druženju uz pivo,vino,čaj, kavu ili napitak po želji. Raspraviti o tome što smo napravili do sad i što bi mogli napraviti u

Re: [Talk-it] utente modifica i value wiki italiani in quelli inglesi

Il 28/02/2016 12:06, Aury88 ha scritto: > ciao a tutti. oggi provando a completare qualche task dato da WTOSM > ho notato che per l'ennesima volta si è perso un link wikipedia di > uno degli aeroporti siciliani...questa volta è stato il > Trapani-Birgi come potete vedere da qui[1] una modifica è

[OSM-talk] osm2pgsql 0.90.0 release

Osm2pgsql 0.90.0 has been released. The major changes since 0.88.0 are - Windows support is much improved, and osm2pgsql builds natively with MSVC - Osm2pgsql now requires a C++11 compiler - Memory overhead for very small extracts is significantly reduced - Multi-threading support is enabled

Re: [Talk-de] Lizenz für Programme und Code

On Tue, Mar 01, 2016 at 10:59:44AM +0100, Markus wrote: > Liebe Entwickler, > > Welche Lizenz verwendet Ihr für Eure Programme/Code? "GPLv3 with special exception to add/link/include any code available under other open source licenses." GPLv3 gibt mir die beste Möglichkeit sicherzustellen, daß

Re: [OSM-talk-fr] JOSM et angles

Le Wednesday 02 March 2016, 12:41:14 JB a écrit : > Bonjour, > À une époque, il me semble qu'en mode ajout sous JOSM, en appuyant une > deuxième fois sur la touche A, on trouvait facilement des angles > spécifiques (30°, 45°, 90°…). > Est-ce que c'est complètement disparu, ou juste caché ailleurs

Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Cartographie des réseaux urbains de bus, journée #HackFrancophonie

Bonjour, Cela signifierait-il qu'il faille que je relance OSMTRansport ??? http://demo.3liz.com/osmtransport/france.php Cordialement, René-Luc Le 02/03/2016 12:58, Johan Richer a écrit : Bonjour à toutes et à tous, J'ai présenté le 19 février dernier lors de la journée #HackFrancophonie

Re: [Talk-us] [Imports-us] Virginia Beach, Virginia Imports

Hello, Thanks for the questions! > You live an hour away from Virginia Beach, is that correct? Yes! Good detective work - depending on traffic. > Are you > familiar enough with the city to verify the data quality, or will you > enlist the help of local mappers who are? Yes! Virginia Beach

Re: [Talk-cz] jak značit výkopové práce?

Díky za odpovědi. Pravda, čekal jsem jasný "návod" a ona nepanuje moc názorová shoda kam s tím :-O Od mapy očekávám především odpověď na to jak z A do B. Není-li cesta průjezdná, byť dočasně, je to pro mě, jako by nebyla vůbec (a musím-li se vracet, pak ještě horší). Proto bych chtěl mít ten údaj

Re: [OSM-talk-fr] JOSM et angles

Cette fonction est toujours présente dans la version que j'utilise (9900). Le 02/03/2016 12:41, JB a écrit : Bonjour, À une époque, il me semble qu'en mode ajout sous JOSM, en appuyant une deuxième fois sur la touche A, on trouvait facilement des angles spécifiques (30°, 45°, 90°…). Est-ce

[OSM-talk-fr] Cartographie des réseaux urbains de bus, journée #HackFrancophonie

Bonjour à toutes et à tous, J'ai présenté le 19 février dernier lors de la journée #HackFrancophonie organisée au Numa par Etalab un projet de cartographie des réseaux urbains de bus, avec comme ville pilote Antananarivo à Madagascar. Tout est là :

Re: [Talk-es] Fwd: Consulta sobre mapa de barreras arquitectónicas en OSM

Hola. Este fin de semana en el HackForGood de Salamanca hemos planteado una aplicación con una idea parecida llamada WillGo. Nos dieron el primer premio en Salamanca.A partir de los datos de OSM poder crear rutas adaptadas a las diferentes tipos de discapacidad. Tanto las que tienen personas

[OSM-talk-fr] JOSM et angles

Bonjour, À une époque, il me semble qu'en mode ajout sous JOSM, en appuyant une deuxième fois sur la touche A, on trouvait facilement des angles spécifiques (30°, 45°, 90°…). Est-ce que c'est complètement disparu, ou juste caché ailleurs ? JB. ___

Re: [Talk-us] [Imports-us] Virginia Beach, Virginia Imports

> On Mar 1, 2016, at 11:58 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > > Is there a community that can be counted on to make sure the data > doesn't rot in OSM once imported - or will you commit to that? > Is this really a serious objection? If so then perhaps I should not map areas I

Re: [Talk-us] How to tag Edible Arrangements?

I would start with shop=confectionary and then add some sub-tags. Phil (trigpoint) On Wed Mar 2 11:15:21 2016 GMT, Tod Fitch wrote: > There is an Edible Arrangements [1] shop near by that I tagged with only name > and and the phone number found on the door. I could not figure out what type >

[Talk-es] Fwd: Consulta sobre mapa de barreras arquitectónicas en OSM

Hola a todos, Por alguna extraña razón todos los correos de la Universidad de Deusto los marca como spam la lista (o gmail o no lo tengo claro). Os reboto la respuesta a ver si así. Un saludo. cruz -- Mensaje reenviado -- De: Ander Pijoan Fecha: 2 de

[Talk-us] How to tag Edible Arrangements?

There is an Edible Arrangements [1] shop near by that I tagged with only name and and the phone number found on the door. I could not figure out what type of shop it ought to be tagged with. Now I am cleaning up issues in my area noted by some of the QA tools and that has been flagged as

Re: [Talk-es] Consulta sobre mapa de barreras arquitectónicas en OSM

Buenas Carlos, Me alegra ver que hay gente nueva en Zaragoza interesada en montar cosas con OSM. Voy respondiéndote entre lineas. 2016-03-02 11:38 GMT+01:00 Carlos Cámara : > Buenos días, > (...) > > Tras esta introducción, me gustaría consultaros lo siguiente: > >

Re: [Talk-se] Open Data Day Stockholm

Hej, Trafikverket har inte fått någon inbjudan från mig. Har du någon kontakt där som vi ska skicka till? Bästa hälsningar, /axel Axel Pettersson +46 (0)730 59 58 13 haxp...@gmail.com Twitter: @Haxpett Blogg:

Re: [Talk-es] Consulta sobre mapa de barreras arquitectónicas en OSM

Buenos días Carlos, Te escribo desde la Universidad de Deusto en Bilbao, donde estamos trabajando en un proyecto "similar" pero a un nivel mas local y con estudiantes de institutos. El proyecto se llama CiudadesAmigables [1] y se engloba dentro del aprendizaje-servicio para aportar una mayor

Re: [Talk-GB] This evening: Night school - Status report

On 02/03/16 10:36, Miark wrote: > You do get schools sharing buildings; eg Sandhurst School in Catford > where the Infant School is on the ground floor and the Junior School is > (mostly) on the first floor, they share the same entrance, but have > separate receptions on their own floors. There

Re: [Talk-GB] This evening: Night school - Status report

On 02/03/16 09:35, Ed Loach wrote: > Is it possible we can add something to the wiki page about an agreed way > to tag multiple schools on a single site, or schools with multiple > sites. I think earlier discussions here suggested: > > For a site with multiple schools (grounds shared, separate

[Talk-es] Consulta sobre mapa de barreras arquitectónicas en OSM

Buenos días, Aunque llevo tiempo suscrito a la lista, este es mi primer mensaje, así que me presento: soy Carlos Cámara, contribuidor ocasional a OSM y defensor de todo lo que tenga que ver con cultura libre. Escribo porque como profesor del grado de arquitectura en la Universidad San Jorge,

Re: [Talk-GB] This evening: Night school - Status report

Hi Ed, You do get schools sharing buildings; eg Sandhurst School in Catford where the Infant School is on the ground floor and the Junior School is (mostly) on the first floor, they share the same entrance, but have separate receptions on their own floors. There are also other schools where the

Re: [Talk-cz] Vyuziti zeleznice main/branch na trati 173 - Beroun - Rudna - Praha-Smichov

Ahoj, a nelze to tagovat nějak takto? usage:legal=main usage=branch Teď si nemohu vzpomenout a vypátrat, jak zněl ten přídavek u jiných tagů, jestli :legal, nebo jinak, ale jde o princip, že lze zadat hodnotu podle legislativy/oficiálního zdroje a hodnotu dle rozumu/místní znalosti. Honza Dne

[Talk-cz] WeeklyOSM CZ 291

Ahoj, je dostupné vydání 291 týdeníku weeklyOSM: http://www.weeklyosm.eu/cz/archives/6924 Téma čísla: opening_hours – pozor na středník * Tagy s odkazy na wikipedii. * OSM v Mexiku 2006-2015. * Otevřená data o víně. * 32bit ID pro uzly nestačí. * Google SoC 2016. Pěkné počtení...

Re: [Talk-it] Tag x aereo dismesso

Cascafico Giovanni wrote on 01/03/2016 23:10: > Un aereo md80 che giace abandoned da alcuni anni su una taxiway cieca. > Non é historic, tantomeno tourist attraction... L'Arizona e il sud USA in generale pullulano di giganteschi siti di aerei dismessi, militari e non.

Re: [Talk-GB] This evening: Night school - Status report

Great news. Is it possible we can add something to the wiki page about an agreed way to tag multiple schools on a single site, or schools with multiple sites. I think earlier discussions here suggested: For a site with multiple schools (grounds shared, separate buildings) tag the

Re: [Talk-it] Mappare reperti bellici

> > intanto se non è ancora mappato potresti mappare il museo come area In realtà non credo sia un vero museo. È semplicemente un posto dove ci sono resti della guerra (che poi a quanto capito è comunemente noto come museo delle bombe – e museo dell'agricoltura, perché ci sono anche attrezzature

Re: [Talk-cz] Vyuziti zeleznice main/branch na trati 173 - Beroun - Rudna - Praha-Smichov

Jo v useku Praha-Smichov – Nucice to celkem jezdi, ovsem k nam do Berouna (usek Nucice – Beroun) uz to neni tak slavne. Tady me to prave trklo, kdyz jsem si vykreslil zeleznice kolem Berouna a tahle se mi vykreslila jako hlavni. Podle te mapky co jsi poslal link [1] je tahle trat 173 ale draha

Re: [Talk-it] Mappare reperti bellici

sent from a phone > Am 01.03.2016 um 22:10 schrieb Dario Crespi : > > Ora la domanda: esistono dei tag per mappare queste cose? Dalle bombe ai > paraschegge alle vecchie piste di raccordo per gli aerei che oggi sono > semplici strade in mezzo al bosco. intanto se

Re: [Talk-it] Tag x aereo dismesso

Il 01/03/2016 23:10, Cascafico Giovanni ha scritto: Un aereo md80 che giace abandoned da alcuni anni su una taxiway cieca. Non é historic, tantomeno tourist attraction... Qui in Arizona http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/32.14056/-110.86883=D usano historic=aircraft name=USAF

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Using SPW PICC layer in josm

Hi, Apparently it's not clear enough You can't use it. It's not a matter of opinion nor I care what certain persons from PICC said to someone else I don't really know. I should not care either, because that's what licences are for. They show me in clear language what can and cannot. It's

[Talk-cz] Blackout

Zdravím, nezáhledl jste někdo nějakou mapku/seznam obcí, kde v rámci kalamity 1.3. 2016 nešel proud? Pokoušel jsem se takovou sestavit, ale mám tam jen ty obce, které jsem cestou domů včera večer viděl z autobusu. -- Severák ___ Talk-cz mailing list

[Talk-se] Open Data Day Stockholm

Hej, På lördag (5 mars) är det Open Data Day, och i Stockholm arrangerar Open Knowledge Sweden och Wikimedia Sverige ett evenemang dit ni är hjärtligt välkomna. En av punkterna på programmet är att samla argument för fria licenser för att kunna övertyga beslutsfattare om varför fritt är bra när

Re: [Talk-cz] Vyuziti zeleznice main/branch na trati 173 - Beroun - Rudna - Praha-Smichov

Jak se dívám na jízdní řád, tak ta intenzita provozu tam zas tak malá není. Pokud se dívám správně, tak ve špičku co půl hodiny, jinak co hodina. Pokud ale kapacitně stačí jedna Regionova a 810, tak se fakt spíše jedná o vytíženou lokálku. Problém s dělením na celostátní/regionální dráhu je

Re: [Talk-us] [Imports-us] Virginia Beach, Virginia Imports

Hi, On 03/02/2016 02:55 AM, Jonah Adkins wrote: > I'd like to propose an import of city-sourced GIS data for the City of > Virginia Beach, Va. The City GIS Office has given the data / license for this > purpose. > Conflation will be done carefully by hand, and attributes copied where needed.