Hi আফতাবুজ্জামান, again thanks for your contribution on osm. But I am sorry to say your contribution is going to destructive for both osm data and our Bengali language. In your changes there was a market (lat:long 24.5025808, 89.143564)named "Sarder Super Market" which was tagged as "name=Sarder Super Market" but you modified the name deleting the previous user's data which is disrespectful behavior because he did no mistake giving the tag name= Eng. name.
If you want to localize the name, you should have keep the data as "name=Sarder Super Market" and then you could give the tag "name:bn=সর্দার সুপার মার্কেট" But what have you done? you just deleted the real contributor's data and gave false name "সদর মার্কেট (Sadar Market)" So that means you are putting data randomly with a desperate manner. As well as putting wrong translation on osm, you are humiliated our mother tongue. If you do not read properly you should not edit any quality data on the other hand if you do not know how to type Bangla please do not use any translate machine to do such destructive things. Another thing is that, do you know the data you have deleted that was a field level data? Putting no new data you are just making mess by editing on OSM. As you mentioned, you are not deleting open data which is contributed by another respectful user. It is just simple example from your huge modifications like this. [image: Name issue.PNG] On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:02 PM <talk-bd-requ...@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > Send Talk-bd mailing list submissions to > talk-bd@openstreetmap.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-bd > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > talk-bd-requ...@openstreetmap.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > talk-bd-ow...@openstreetmap.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Talk-bd digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Discussion: Issues with name localization for Bangladesh > (Fazle Rabbi) > 2. Re: Discussion: Issues with name localization for Bangladesh > (Aftabuzzaman Ullah) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 18:42:37 +0600 > From: Fazle Rabbi <fazlerabb...@gmail.com> > To: talk-bd@openstreetmap.org > Subject: [Talk-bd] Discussion: Issues with name localization for > Bangladesh > Message-ID: > < > caajwmtuspumbvyycfajtstooptiadhdxm-flvc+x1usyre3...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Greetings, everyone, > > I am Fazle Rabbi from OpenStreetMap Bangladesh Foundation (OSMBDF), the > representative of OpenStreetMap Bangladesh community. I'm also a member of > the core team of the community, commonly known as "BHOOT" to the global OSM > community. > > For some time, there has been a lot of discussion and debates on how – or > rather, if – we should localize names for Bangladesh (Bengali). Recently, > we have seen a lot of changes from a few contributors who changed the > `name` tag from English (Roman) to Bengali. We agree with the policy that > names should be localized, but which tag we should use is up for > discussion. We, the community of Bangladesh, have been following a style > for more than 4 years now to map Bangladesh with English (Roman) for `name` > tag and Bengali for `name:bn` tag. > > The community have come to this conclusion after many trials and errors and > thoughtful consideration that `name` tag should be had the name in English > (Roman). But we made a mistake. We did all the discussion internally as all > the initial contributors used to sit together in a small room. What we > should have done is discuss it in a more appropriate manner where anyone – > past, present, future contributors – would be able to raise their voices. > We would like to apologize for our mistake and take steps to fix that > problem by starting a discussion here to make a string tagging guideline > for Bangladesh. > > The OSM community in Bangladesh is one of the strongest communities in the > world, and community members have gathered under the wing of OSMBDF, the > legally registered entity in Bangladesh, and waiting for the local chapter > recognition from OSMF. The members of our community are mainly connected > via a Facebook group. Though this mailing list was set up at a very initial > stage, it was not very active. Recently, on the State of the Map Asia 2019 > held in Bangladesh, we decided to make the mailing list more active and the > core communication channel. We would like all of our community members to > engage in the mailing for this kind of discussions rather than using the > Facebook group. > > The OSM community and, as a part of that larger community, we, the members > of OSM Bangladesh community, strongly believe that the main site at > openstreetmap.org is a geo-spatial data repository which is used by many > other apps, websites and service providers, but not as a map. I would like > to draw your attention to two sentences in the [About Page of > OpenStreetMap](https://www.openstreetmap.org/about): > > - "OpenStreetMap powers map data on thousands of websites, mobile apps, and > hardware devices" > - "OpenStreetMap is built by a community of mappers that contribute and > maintain data about roads, trails, cafés, railway stations, and much more, > all over the world." > > It is a data repository, not a map. The reasons we have agreed upon using > English name in `name` tag are: > > - The rendering problem with Bengali makes a horrible UX experience. The > rendering style used by OSM main site is openstreetmap-carto that had a > problem with rendering Bengali. The problem is fixed recently which is a > great news. While it is convenient to use from a desktop or laptop at home, > unfortunately, it is impossible to use on the go. Most of the people use > mobile apps to navigate on the road, but the large array of the most-used > mobile applications like OsmAnd, Maps.Me, Magic Earth that still can't > render the Bengali characters make it unable to use for the users. The > Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team (HOT) made a map for disaster response that > is available in OSM main site as an additional layer, which also can't > render Bengali. And that makes it a challenge in times of disaster > response. Screenshot for reference: > https://photos.app.goo.gl/Zj9rwFsG76H3ZPReA > > - Aid agencies like UN, MSF, Red Crescent have run many projects to map > large portions of the country and given those data to OSM, which makes them > big contributors and users of the OSM data. But this data becomes useless > if all `name` tags are replaced with Bengali. As per, it came to us, WFP > recently faced the issue while they tried out using the dataset in one of > their projects. > > OSM is an open community where everything gets done by discussing, and we > have tried to follow that convention. When we noticed the `name` tag > problem, we requested the editor to change it by putting the Bengali value > in `name:bn` tag. We are very disheartened to see when they changed OSM > Wiki to justify theirs without community consent or even discussion, which > is not appreciated in an open community. Moreover, the English names were > deleted altogether, which is problematic, because there is no fall-back > policy for applications that can render `name:en` tags. > > > When we asked them about the rendering problem of the `name` tag in the > changeset comments, they replied that it is not their concern and the > developer of those apps should be asked to fix it. A very valid point! But > a large number of users are foreign people, so we can't just ask them to > learn Bengali all on a sudden, can we? Imagine that to see the map of > Denmark you have to learn Danish. Not so convenient, is it? To maintain a > more transient conversion we requested to use English in changeset comments > which was ignored altogether. We are strongly recommending that the > language of the communication should be in English for better transparency. > > Today we are inviting you all to take part here in this discussion in > shaping the tagging policy of Bangladesh. We also have a close > communication about this issue with OSMF data working group and will also > follow up with them about it. > > On State of the Map Asia 2019 (SotM Asia 2019), the Bangladesh community > has made a decision that, in the true spirit of openness, everything > related to OSM in Bangladesh should be discussed in this mailing list. > Anything without prior discussion in the mailing list would be treated as > vandalism and strict actions would follow. > > We will request you all to invite other contributes and stakeholders to > subscribe to the mailing list and, for instant messaging, join our Telegram > group <https://t.me/OpenStreetMapBD>. > > > Thank you! > > Regards > > Fazle Rabbi > On behalf of, > OpenStreetMap Bangladesh Foundation (OSMBDF) > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-bd/attachments/20191107/23d7b226/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 00:31:46 +0000 > From: Aftabuzzaman Ullah <aftabuzzamanul...@gmail.com> > To: talk-bd@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [Talk-bd] Discussion: Issues with name localization for > Bangladesh > Message-ID: > < > cangy_jygau7ymajslznjq+9cotycwu-scc9+n632pe6btcu...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hello. Thanks for mail. > I respectfully disagree that we should use default/primary "name" tag in > English instead of Bangla. If i understand correctly, OSM policy/general > community guideline is that default/primary "name" tag should be in > whatever language is used locally (for Bangladesh it is Bangla). ( > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names ) It is common > practice and it is followed by most countries e.g Japan, China, Russia, all > arabic, cyrillic speaking countries etc countries. > > We should use English because some software doesn't render Bangla correctly > isn't acceptable reason. It's may be true but By now the majority of > rendering systems/software can deal with unicode characters, supports > Bangla characters. Just because some software/site doesn't support Bangla > so we should use English, is like you have headache so cut the head like > solution. Like you said openstreetmap-carto was unable to render Bangla but > it was fixed now. Same thing can be done with others, if an app doesn't > support Bangla, we need to submit bug report, reach out the developer for > adding Bangla font. Thats will be correct solution. It is not true that in > order to fix Bangla rendering problem, developer needs to learn Bangla. > They will just need to specify/include a Bangla font. we should need to > take necessary step to fix rendering problem in the apps/site that don't > render Bangla correctly e.g. submiting bug report (for exemple, to fix HOT > rendering problem we need to ask developer to add a Bangla font here > https://github.com/hotosm/HDM-CartoCSS/tree/master/fonts . i can see they > already added arabic, tamil, thai, lao etc font) I will be happy to help > with this & others. > > It is also not true that English names were deleted altogether, i can see > it just moved to "name:en" field (e.g "name = Road 1" became "name = সড়ক ১" > & "name:en = Road 1"). If any software/site doesn't want to show local > language but english, they easily fallback to name:en. > > Per OSM policy/general community guideline, We should use default/primary > "name" tag in Bangla, any other name language in their code e.g name:en for > English, name:it for Italian etc. That's should be our general > guideline. Yes, If for some reason someone cannot/don't do this, thats > fine, no one going to yell / block them. But in general, our broad nameing > guideline should be same as OSM general guideline, use default/primary > "name" tag in Bangla. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-bd/attachments/20191108/9ad51103/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Talk-bd mailing list > Talk-bd@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-bd > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Talk-bd Digest, Vol 36, Issue 4 > ************************************** > -- *Md. Solaiman Shaikh* *YouthMappers Dhaka College*
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