Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
2015-06-13 16:37 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Hi, I'm known for being critical of armchair mapping by people with no personal connection tho the area being mapped. Whether done for fun, for money, or to help, I think that in most cases it is a bad idea that runs against the spirit of OSM. (I'm willing to concede that there are exceptions, and that sometimes doing something that's against the spirit may still be useful. But these are individual cases, to be carefully justified, and remote mapping should never become anyone's standard mode of contribution.) It's well within the spirit of OSM to map remotely from an armchair, as long as it represents actual on-the-ground data. This means that (satellite) photo's, gps tracks, local knowledge, datasets etc. can all be used for mapping. Of course considering licensing, quality of the photo's/data, ageing of photo's/data. Until now I thought that the main exception, one that even I would have to accept, is mapping for humanitarian purposes. I was all the more surprised - positively surprised - to read this thoughtful essay by Erica Hagen, who founded Map Kibera: http://groundtruth.in/2015/06/05/osm-mapping-power-to-the-people/ I'd encourage everyone to read that. It questions some rarely questioned assumptions; it even says that mapping by locals doesn't really count if those locals are just doing it for the money (a sentiment that I've always felt but rarely dared to express, because who can expect locals in the poorest parts of the world to map for fun like privileged westerners do?). It also says that local isn't local if the locals from the wealthy city map the slum in their midst. I've tended to routinely associate the call for more diversity in OSM as mainly being one for levelling the gender playing field but this article goes much further. In some parts the article echoes a rather more acerbic posting written last month by Gwilym Eades, a university lecturer in London: http://place-memes.blogspot.de/2015/05/the-hubris-of-proactive-disaster-mapping.html which essentially accused humanitarian mapping (and as I would add, any remote mapping really) of homogenising, westernising, and colonising the map. Some comments on statements by Erica: Mapping, on the other hand, is an activity that is inherently the other way around — best and most accurately done by residents of a place. It's true that locals have local knowledge which can enrich a map. Though Google shows that it's possible to create maps with high quality without using locals. By just having some cars with GPSses and photos driving around, buying datasets, extracting information from websites and the Android users Google has created a map which is being used massively. Possibly mainly to keep maintaining cost low Google accepts input from locals. Having dealt with these challenges nearly from day one of Map Kibera, I’m particularly sensitive to the question “How does a map help the people living in the place represented?” Great 'what' question. People can live for years without a map of their local community, so why should they start filling in a blank map after all? I've searched her article for an answer to her question, but can't find it. Though there are two clues in her article: 1. 'the real target of any development-oriented data effort — actual improvements in the lives of the world’s poor and marginalized.' 2. '...to solve this problem of invisibility bestowed by poverty.' Do we, the westerners, want actual improvements in the lives of the world's poor and marginalized, or are it these people themselves who want this? And is it true that the poor are invisible (on a map) and that they have that problem? Or should it be a westerner telling them they have a problem (ah, I didn't know I had that problem) which then can be solved by mapping projects engaging locals? I can only see one clear reason to help the poor people from a westerners view: in case of a disaster, NGO's can help people by providing food, clothes, housing. In order to reach them, maps are a lifesaver. Luckily OSM has the possibility of remote mapping (Google forbids it) using up-to-date satellite imagery which helps these lifesaving efforts. Other than disaster mapping, it's fine to me when locals don't want their blank map being filled in at all. And if they do want a blank map being filled, they can do it themselves by the standard tools. The poor can do without mapping projects organized by non-locals. It's enough for non-locals to be there when locals ask for support. Cheers, Johan I don't agree with everything written in these postings but they certainly deserve some wider audience, and that's why I am writing this here - since neither author is on these lists and I haven't seen their messages mentioned or quoted anywhere. I think the tl;dr of both these postings could be: Whenever you give someone a map by remote mapping, you also take
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Données ONCFS - donnez nous les biches !
Hello, Merci pour ta réponse Sami. Cette correspondance est illusoire. J'ai tapé des chevreuils en voiture bien loin de ces panneaux, qui ne sont plus du tout à jour. Et oui, l'urbanisation galope et influe grandement sur les points de passage des bestioles... Et je ne crois pas que ce soient les données de l'ONCFS qui ont servi de base à l'implantation de ces panneaux, mais plutôt les dires des fédérations départementales de chasseurs à l'époque. Remarque en passant, qualifier l'ONCFS de braves chasseurs est un peu osé. Cela fait longtemps qu'ils ne sont plus sous tutelle des fédés de chasse, mais sont des agents sous co-tutelle des ministères en charge de l'environnement et de l'agriculture. Je t'avoue être néophyte total sur le sujet. Je ne connaissais pas l'ONCFS la semaine dernière ... Tu penses donc que vouloir associer un panneau biche avec un/plusieurs espèces est une mauvaise idée car la faune est trop variable ? C'est peut être le cas, j'aimerai juste me baser sur des éléments rationnels pour arriver à cette conclusion. Le 9 juin 2015 20:43, Samy Mezani samy.mez...@wanadoo.fr a écrit : Sinon autant la cartographie d'espèces végétales, cultivées ou sauvages, peut se concevoir, autant la cartographie d'espèces animales n'a à mon avis pas du tout sa place dans OSM. Les bestioles bougent par nature, fluctuent d'une année à l'autre, et leurs effectifs évoluent à une échelle de temps plus longue. Seules les bases de données des associations naturalistes sont aptes à tenter d'appréhender ces phénomènes. on est bien d'accord et ce n'était pas du tout mon but. Je cherche juste à ajouter du détail sur des panneaux ou des tronçons de route pour signaler un danger. ++ -- *Florian Lainez* @overflorian http://twitter.com/overflorian ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
And i think there are a lot of other areas in OSM that represent at least as efficient (and therefore damaging) means of cultural imperialism as remote mapping. Acting as devil's advocate, I have a quick question - are you 100% sure that you are not overthinking stuff? I see discussion after discussion which delve into grand topics like diversity, freedom from proprietary software/services, freedom from corporations, now this thing with remote mappers robbing local people of something deep and profound... Don't you think you're over-analyzing everything a bit too much recently? I mean, wouldn't the energy be better spent? Just checking. I may be wrong, in which case, please do carry on... Paweł On Sat, Jun 13, 2015, at 19:09, Christoph Hormann wrote: On Saturday 13 June 2015, Frederik Ramm wrote: [...] I don't agree with everything written in these postings but they certainly deserve some wider audience, and that's why I am writing this here - since neither author is on these lists and I haven't seen their messages mentioned or quoted anywhere. I think the tl;dr of both these postings could be: Whenever you give someone a map by remote mapping, you also take something away from them. Thanks for pointing to these texts, very interesting reading. I fear though that critical discussion of the matter will most likely be difficult since the perceived need for humanitarian mapping in events of crisis and the perceived prominence of altruistic motives in those activities is so large making even the basic notion that something good does not justify something bad seems unimportant. Critical reflection on your activities in such a context is very difficult. One important point where i think Gwilym is wrong is the idea that proactive humanitarian mapping will lead to a true homogenization of the map. First of all none of the organized mapping activities focusses on those areas that are worst mapped in OSM so they increase differences rather than reducing them. Efforts in true homogenization would only have a chance on a much longer time horizon (i.e. decades) and none of the organizations involved in humanitarian mapping think on that time scale. But more importantly the colonalization, control and power over space is already there in the form of global coverage high resolution imagery. Remote mapping essentailly makes this information more accessible. If this is a good or a bad thing can of course be discussed but OSM is not really the best address to blame here in any case. This is not meant to say remote mapping in OSM is generally a good thing, many of the arguments against it have a lot of merit. But the main question should be if and how this hampers development of true grassroots mapping by locals when performed within OSM and thereby conteracts the primary purpose of the project and not if remote mapping itself, i.e. extracting semantic information from remotely sensed data that exists anyway is morally questionable in general (which is fairly frivolous IMO). And i think there are a lot of other areas in OSM that represent at least as efficient (and therefore damaging) means of cultural imperialism as remote mapping. My favorite example is always map rendering, there is a real lot of more or less subtle cultural bias in that. OSM does not only need more mappers with diverse cultural backgrounds, it also need more diverse input in development and design and the barriers for those are much higher than for mapping. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-br] classificação de subprefeituras.
Ainda não tenho opinião formada a respeito até porque os aplicativos que conhecemos não descem a nível subdistrito. Existe um debate interessante a respeito em http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=26430 . Ele foi iniciado, mas não concluído. -Mensagem Original- From: Nelson A. de Oliveira Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 1:21 AM To: OpenStreetMap no Brasil Subject: Re: [Talk-br]classificação de subprefeituras. Aproveitem e embalem nisso aqui tudo o que precisa ser discutido de coisa diferente que existe no Brasil, como subdistrito. ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
On 14/06/2015 6:31 PM, Sarah Hoffmann wrote: The One Map we currently show caters mainly to the overrepresented tech population (or, in the case of the HOT map, to NGOs) and that gives the impression that the same is true for our data (which isn't). So maybe both, the diversity movement and humanitarian efforts should focus less on data collection and more on the data representation, i.e. make specialised maps. Unfortunately some people in OSM don't want diversity - they see it as a special case and they don't want that in OSM! This can be seen in the opposition to some new tags being introduced. I say the more data the better. The number of tags should reflect the diversity of features, grouping them is something of a problem, but that should not stop the introduction of new tags. The 'one map we show' .. is that not intended for checking of data? Not for producing a map? Presently there are many OSM derived maps available, with lots of variation between them in how they present the data and what data they do present. It 'would be nice' to have a 'user configurable map' .. that may come as time passes. But it would still rely on OSM data, and that needs to include a lot of diverse things. Some won't be of use in one map, but may be very important in another map. Lots of them. Invest in technologies that allow every community to make exactly the map they need. Because this really is the resource intensive part of OSM which most people cannot efford. Data collection is easy and cheap in comparision. The local communities will eventually mangage to do it on their own, once they see what the benefits are for themselves. Sarah Good data collection in remote areas is neither easy or cheap. The more remote the area the more it costs to get there, stay there and then transmit the data back. - I use 'remote mapping' methods even close to home, as well as far away. When used close to home I have cultural knowledge that help in determining things. For clarification I can always go and visit. Far away I am less certain and have to take a more conservative approach. That can lead to errors - I try to make those have as little impact as possible. If, for example, a highway classification is needed than I'll demote the classification rather than be too optimistic about it. Some group of buildings might be a small village .. or a group of farm buildings .. I'll leave that alone. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Hi, On 06/14/2015 02:12 PM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote: I find this point of view to be astounding in its arrogance and indeed blatant colonialistic spirit. Harsh words. In the final paragraph of your blog post, you write: In addition the locals are not the only people who will need to use a map. Tourists, passers-by, people moving their goods or offering their services also need maps of places where they go. Everyone needs a map even if not everyone wants to make it or use it. But this is exactly the criticism we're facing - bluntly put: Westerners need maps of places so they can conquer them by selling their products and services. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Echtzeit-Tracker für Bahn- und Busverbindungen
Seltsame Dinge zu beobachten hat auch was gutes: Die Ursache lag in einem falschen oneway=yes. Und wenn dann der Fahrweg über einen speziellen Routenplaner zwischen den Haltestellen berechnet wird, wir es lustig. Etwas mehr Hintergrund zum Technik unter http://geops.ch/blog/worldwide-travic Gruss N. Am 11.06.2015 um 13:28 schrieb Nzara: Das steckt aber viel Phantasie drin. Gerade konnte ich einen Bus beobachten, der in rasendem Tempo durch Quartierstrassen kurvte. Als ob der Routenplaner zwischen zwei Haltestellen keinen brauchbaren Weg gefunden hat und das nur durch Geschwindigkeit auf dem Umweg wett gemacht werden muss. Frei von jeder Realität. Gruss N. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
On Sunday 14 June 2015, Sarah Hoffmann wrote: The One Map we currently show caters mainly to the overrepresented tech population (or, in the case of the HOT map, to NGOs) and that gives the impression that the same is true for our data (which isn't). So maybe both, the diversity movement and humanitarian efforts should focus less on data collection and more on the data representation, i.e. make specialised maps. Lots of them. Yes, it is remarkable that we have all kinds of specialized, often local maps for certain purposes - hiking, sports of all kinds etc. covering subjects popular in 'developed' countries despite the fact that the main map already well addresses the needs of people there but hardly any maps that specifically target the needs of locals elsewhere. It is certainly much more difficult to teach people to create their own custom design maps in a self-determined way than it is to enable them to do mapping, it requires a much more abstract view both in terms of dealing with data and in terms of human perception in maps reading. This is also something that came through in the talk you linked to i think. What i would really like to see is developers and map designers getting to listen to and communicate with people with a more diverse cultural background. This is going to be hard though - getting a productive communication between a map designer and an average map user from for example Europe is already tough, working around wrong preconceptions, dealing with the problems of technical language etc. But doing this across significant cultural and geographical barriers is a whole other story. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
I find this point of view to be astounding in its arrogance and indeed blatant colonialistic spirit. The noble savages should not be influenced by us, the decadent Westerners. A sickening insular attitude that I have not found in similar projects like Project Gutenberg and Wikipedia. When do I stop being a local, when I cross my street, when I cross into the next neighborhood, when I cross into the next settlement, next region, next country? Where is the limit of local? There is nothing taken away by remote mapping, indeed what is given is very valuable, time and commitment to building a base map upon which it is easier for locals to add their own flavour. I've written some thoughts on this myself, and indeed find this to be an opportune time to point at my project Askja, on how to make mapping remotely even easier and more focused. My thoughts are found here: http://joi.betra.is/?p=1769 The TL;DR is, we are building a map of the world and we need more people to do more work on more places, remotely or not. Remote mapping - lets do more Þann 13.6.2015 14:37, skrifaði Frederik Ramm: Hi, I'm known for being critical of armchair mapping by people with no personal connection tho the area being mapped. Whether done for fun, for money, or to help, I think that in most cases it is a bad idea that runs against the spirit of OSM. (I'm willing to concede that there are exceptions, and that sometimes doing something that's against the spirit may still be useful. But these are individual cases, to be carefully justified, and remote mapping should never become anyone's standard mode of contribution.) Until now I thought that the main exception, one that even I would have to accept, is mapping for humanitarian purposes. I was all the more surprised - positively surprised - to read this thoughtful essay by Erica Hagen, who founded Map Kibera: http://groundtruth.in/2015/06/05/osm-mapping-power-to-the-people/ I'd encourage everyone to read that. It questions some rarely questioned assumptions; it even says that mapping by locals doesn't really count if those locals are just doing it for the money (a sentiment that I've always felt but rarely dared to express, because who can expect locals in the poorest parts of the world to map for fun like privileged westerners do?). It also says that local isn't local if the locals from the wealthy city map the slum in their midst. I've tended to routinely associate the call for more diversity in OSM as mainly being one for levelling the gender playing field but this article goes much further. In some parts the article echoes a rather more acerbic posting written last month by Gwilym Eades, a university lecturer in London: http://place-memes.blogspot.de/2015/05/the-hubris-of-proactive-disaster-mapping.html which essentially accused humanitarian mapping (and as I would add, any remote mapping really) of homogenising, westernising, and colonising the map. I don't agree with everything written in these postings but they certainly deserve some wider audience, and that's why I am writing this here - since neither author is on these lists and I haven't seen their messages mentioned or quoted anywhere. I think the tl;dr of both these postings could be: Whenever you give someone a map by remote mapping, you also take something away from them. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Þann 14.6.2015 12:57, skrifaði Frederik Ramm: Hi, On 06/14/2015 02:12 PM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote: I find this point of view to be astounding in its arrogance and indeed blatant colonialistic spirit. Harsh words. In the final paragraph of your blog post, you write: In addition the locals are not the only people who will need to use a map. Tourists, passers-by, people moving their goods or offering their services also need maps of places where they go. Everyone needs a map even if not everyone wants to make it or use it. But this is exactly the criticism we're facing - bluntly put: Westerners need maps of places so they can conquer them by selling their products and services. Who said anything about Westerners? Projects like mapping entire Botswana and Lesotho is not for HOT issues, acute distress. It is for making it easier for the local economies to grow, to use maps like the Western world does to great effect. My words were harsh because the original premise was harsh, that by mapping remote places we are colonising them. We are not and to think I was referring to Westerners when I referred to who could use the map just show that the viewpoint is still misguided. I'm thinking of the people that take their produce to market, using SMS they get prices from places and using offline OSM maps they can plot a route to the destination, even if it is in a nearby town they haven't been before - it allows them to calculate the travel time so they can see if it is cost effective to go a longer route for a small gain in sale price. They are using bicycles, scooters or they can band together and several of them buy a bigger vehicle that makes it more cost effective for several farmers to find a better market. I've never been to Botswana and I'll probably never go to Botswana and I'm not starting a business in Botswana nor am I involved with a company doing business there. Once we get enough locals interested and contributing I'll gladly stop contributing there and find another area that needs a helping hand. --Remote mapping from 10.000 km away ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
On 6/14/2015 2:57 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: But this is exactly the criticism we're facing - bluntly put: Westerners need maps of places so they can conquer them by selling their products and services. One thing to keep in mind is that often time the people who want to colonize or exploit places and people are already very well funded and _already have_ all the map and geographic information they need to exploit a place and its people. It is disparity in access to data that helps the exploiters. It is through efforts like OPENStreetMap that we can try and counter their advantage by doing what we can to help the local community create their own maps and geo data so they can be on more even footing with those who take advantage of the lack of data available to local communities now. Regards, Blake ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Echtzeit-Tracker für Bahn- und Busverbindungen
Am Sonntag, 14. Juni 2015, 11:15:03 schrieb Nzara: Am 11.06.2015 um 13:28 schrieb Nzara: Das steckt aber viel Phantasie drin. Gerade konnte ich einen Bus beobachten, der in rasendem Tempo durch Quartierstrassen kurvte. Als ob der Routenplaner zwischen zwei Haltestellen keinen brauchbaren Weg gefunden hat und das nur durch Geschwindigkeit auf dem Umweg wett gemacht werden muss. Frei von jeder Realität. Seltsame Dinge zu beobachten hat auch was gutes: Die Ursache lag in einem falschen oneway=yes. Und wenn dann der Fahrweg über einen speziellen Routenplaner zwischen den Haltestellen berechnet wird, wir es lustig. Etwas mehr Hintergrund zum Technik unter http://geops.ch/blog/worldwide-travic Ich hatte mir das auch mal angeguckt. Hier mal ein paar Dinge, die mir aufgefallen sind: -diverse ICEs fahren zwischen Hannover und Hamburg über Buchholz i.d.Nordheide und Wunstorf, meines Wissens fahren die aber über Lüneburg und die Hasenbahn -an der Station Gehrden/Steintor wandern die Busse zwischen den stop_positions (vermutlich die virtuelle Kante, die den Gleiswechsel erlaubt), anstatt über den (auch in den OSM-Relationen vorhandenen) Weg über die Straßenecke zu nehmen -der Verlauf der Linie 540 in Wennigsen (ab Im Lindenfelde Richtung Barsinghausen/Schulzentrum, Abfahrt etwa 13:00 Uhr) fährt falsch rum durch die Straße Im Lindenfelde, die Bushaltestelle ist nur auf der nördlichen Seite der Straße (auch hier hat die OSM-Relation recht) -die S-Bahnen Richtung Süden nehmen zwischen Hannover HBf und Hannover Bismarckstraße das falsche Gleis (auch hier hat die OSM-Relation die richtigen Gleise) -die ICEs (am Beispiel 789) auch, die fahren durch H-Bismarckstraße auf Gleis 3 (das 2. von Osten), sie S-Bahnen Richtung Süden auf Gleis 1 (westlich), die S-Bahnen nach Norden auf Gleis 2 (dazwischen) -die S-Bahnen aus Richtung Weetzen (S1, S2, S5, S21, S51) fahren hier auch durch das falsche Gleis, das scheint nördlich des Bahnhofs das richtige zu sein, südlich davon fahren sie über das Gegengleis. -die ICEs aus Richtung Süden nach Hannover fahren ab Messe/Laatzen über die S- Bahn-Gleise durch H-Bismarckstraße, eigentlich nehmen sie Gleis 4 Hier scheint mir die Beachtung einer möglichen Regelfahrrichtung angebracht, d.h. bei zweigleisigen Strecken wird im Normalfall in Deutschland das rechte benutzt. Scheinbar ist die Gewichtung für die virtuellen Kanten zu hoch, zumindest rund um Hannover sollten die meisten Bahnstationen passend getaggt sein, so dass man hier über die PT-Relation den vollständig korrekten Linienverlauf finden können sollte. Die Züge durch Hannover HBf und wohl auch in Bismarckstraße wollen scheinbar alle immer über Gleis 1. Zumindest bei den jeweils dort haltenden Zügen sollte doch das korrekte Gleis ermittelbar sein. Eike signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Hi, On 06/14/2015 11:02 AM, Hans De Kryger wrote: Isn't the point of remote mapping the ability to pull a large amount of people from all parts of life together and map an area of need in a short period of time? That (disaster mapping) is *one* case, but not the only one; on the humanitarian side there's also mapping outside of acute disasters intended to improve the administration of development aid and/or a response in potential future disasters. On the commercial side there's remote mapping to improve the map in areas that your clients are interested in (where your client might actually even be an NGO administering aid), and on the hobbyist side there's the sheer joy of a blank slate to map on. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
A few points Full disclosure. The post that touched off this thread was written by my wife and partner in Map Kibera. All the points on this thread are very good points to keep in mind with any mapping project, but there's no universal rule in my experience. Don't forget that mappers are everywhere and that amazing connections take place that don't fit our usual conception of remote mapping, like https://twitter.com/uscgjerusalem/status/523473404532645888 I have seen the amazing pride that comes from residents themselves creating the map from a blank spot. I've also seen the same from a very well filled map, selectively and carefully updated with local knowledge. And I've seen incredible, life saving work from remote mapping, that locals are not only incredibly grateful for, but value as a connection to the global community. The key in my opinion is understanding the transformative pride of mapping (as we all know well, that's why we're here), and designing for it. Our design challenge for OpenStreetMap constantly changes, and much of our tools are still oriented towards filling in the blank map. A map with all the buildings can look done in the standard rendering, but of course we know it's not done. Is there a way to visualize the map to take into account the depth and local knowledge of the data? So that the pride of filling in the blank spot can be felt even when previous work has been done? I'd say that's a design challenge even in well mapped countries, which will need to be maintained and updated for the rest of time! -Mikel * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron On Saturday, June 13, 2015 1:52 PM, Tom Lee t...@mapbox.com wrote: These critiques seem to be beginning to develop themes explored more fully and famously by James Scott in _Seeing Like A State_. In it, he explores the implications of government efforts at systematization, including the original French cadastre and some German forest management projects. I'm afraid the news is worse than you might think, Frederik: Scott makes a compelling case that the *very act of mapping itself* snuffs out locally adapted systems of property management, social support and cultural exchange. It is a troubling critique and one that bears serious consideration. (It also carries vast and unwieldy intellectual coattails, including a deep connection to the failed anarchist project of the early twentieth century.) For my part, the value of being able to deliver emergency services, economic development and competent governance seem overwhelmingly worth the cultural costs that accompany efforts to rationalize the world. It seems to me that the verdict is in and we're all building a global society (and global map!). I'm skeptical that OSM should or can be a meaningful bulwark against this process. Local mapping is preferable not because it escapes the intellectual hegemony of mapping practices -- there is no escape from them at all if you are making a unified map -- but because it delivers a better map. And some map is better than no map: Does every building address need to be mapped? If not, it just seems like an easy win — why not collect everything? One reason not to is because later when you find you need local buy-in, even OSM may be viewed as an outsider project meant to dominate a neighborhood, a city, especially in sensitive neighborhoods where this has indeed been a primary use of maps. I wonder if people will one day want to create “our map” separately from OSM. A different global map wiki which is geared toward self-determination, perhaps? That would be a major loss for the OSM community. This struck me as shortsighted. The author is suggesting that leaving the map blank is preferable because someone might fill it in later, and that person might feel intimidated by the presence of existing data. I will gently submit that needing a blank slate is not even close to the most off-putting thing about OSM for new mappers. More to the point, even if you take an *extremely* rosy view of the extent to which the act of mapping enhances self-determination, the loss to the OSM community seems vastly less important than the losses to everyone who could be using the map to facilitate their businesses, recreation, or government. Every day that a part of the map remains unusably empty is a day that those people lose benefits they might have had -- or a day in which they become more reliant on closed data that has already gotten the job done. Tom ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] outil user-friendly pour taguer les horaires opening_hours
Le 12 juin 2015 22:31, Christian Rogel christian.ro...@club-internet.fr a écrit : J’avais l’intention de parler des horaires à mettre dans OSM et je voulais souligner que, pour qui est familier de l’anglais, la syntaxe requise est plutôt simple, bien qu’elle demande quelque entraînement. à voir le résultat, il y a encore du boulot, cf. la carte des erreurs de tagging de opening_hours : http://ypid.de/~osm/?setLng=frzoom=12lat=48.86189lon=2.37245layers=B0Tfilter=errorOnlytags=opening_hours On a encore un nombre assez important de valeurs inexploitables. Je vous présente donc YoHours, la petite interface web pour passer d'horaires compréhensibles par un humain au format opening_hours (compréhensible, mais moins) : http://github.pavie.info/yohours/ génial ! En effet quelques optimisations graphiques et techniques serraient à faire mais c'est un bon début. Tu aurais besoin de gérer des cas complexes (horaires dépendant de la saison...) ou juste la semaine de base ? la semaine de base serait un bon point de départ. Je pense qu'il faut passer plus de temps sur l'interface que sur les fonctionnalités avancées. Sinon le résultat est exactement ce que j'attendais : un simple champ à copier-coller dans l'éditeur de mon choix. Idée pour un développement à plus long terme : permettre une recherche NOMINATIM pour sélectionner un élément et éditer ses horaires d'ouverture en live ... j'imagine bien quelque chose d'assez simple pour pouvoir l'envoyer à un commerçant en lui demandant de compléter ses horaires. Encore une fois la simplicité de l'interface serait clef pour un tel outil. à ta dispo PanierAvide si tu veux qu'on en parle plus en détails. ++ Le 13 juin 2015 10:21, PanierAvide panierav...@riseup.net a écrit : Merci pour ce retour, je vais commenter au fur et à mesure, en reprécisant le contexte : ça a été fait en 2h, c'est (pour l'instant) juste une ébauche ;) Le 13/06/2015 09:56, Philippe Verdy a écrit : C'est très moche oui, pas un problème sauf qu'on s'attend à une présentation façon tableau emploi du temps scolaire pour les ouvertures, une icone + pour scinder une tranche horaire en deux ou pour l'étendre aux jours précédents ou suivants de la semaine (on peut aussi tirer depuis bords du tableau si tu gères la souris, un plus compliqué que des boutons). Ce serait effectivement l'idéal, c'est plus complexe à mettre en place (il faut créer un widget dédié), mais ça doit bien pouvoir se faire en prenant le temps. Mais le résultat n'est pas terrible non plus quand on obtient Mo-Su 09:00-18:00; We off; Th off; Fr off; Sa off où les off peuvent être abrégés en We-Sa off... et même encore plus simplement : Su-Tu 09:00-18:00 C'est vrai, je n'avais pas vu ça. Cela vient de l'algorithme du plugin JOSM OpeningHoursEdit (il a le même comportement dans JOSM), donc à voir pour améliorer celui-ci en amont. D'ailleurs, on pourrait même imaginer créer une bibliothèque dédiée à cette question des horaires d'ouvertures, à la manière de opening_hours.js mais dans le sens saisie utilisateur - clé opening_hours. Tu sembles assumer que la commence commence uniquement le lundi (à la façon dont on numérote les semaines ISO y compris en France dans l'adminstration et la plupart des entreprises mais pas dans tous les métiers), mais les anglosaxons protestants et le judaïsme voient la semaine commencer un dimanche après la samedi de shabbat, les musulmans la voient commencer le samedi après le vendredi rituel). C'était par souci de simplicité, je connais ces aspects mais rien n'empêche actuellement quelqu'un de commencer par saisir le dimanche, il faut juste aller le chercher dans le menu déroulant. Si l'on raisonne dans l'autre sens, en souhaitant effectivement implémenter cet aspect là, il faut connaître au minimum la position de la personne (et extrapoler sur les coutumes locales), au mieux sa religion. Le dernier cas n'est pas envisageable, le premier cas donne des résultats variables (la position par localisation d'adresse IP vaut ce qu'elle vaut). Après il existe peut-être une autre solution implémentable, dans ce cas pourquoi pas :) La semaine légale varie d'un pays à l'autre (essentiellement selon la religion majoritaire), mais on devrait pouvoir définir un intervalle de jour de la semaine valide comme Sa-Tu signifiant samedi, dimanche, lundi et mardi alors que Tu-Sa signifie mardi, mercredi,... vendredi et samedi: l'énumération se fait toujours dans l'ordre croissant des jours de la semaine et peut passer sans problème d'une semaine légale à la suivante. À priori la syntaxe opening_hours le permet, il suffirait de l'implémenter. Autant que possible éviter les off pour les jours de fermeture hebdomadaires (par exemple en France de nombreux commerces comme coiffeurs ou boulangers sont fermés le lundi on indique Tu-Su ce qui positionne dimanche en fin de l'intervalle, mais d'autres sont fermés plutot le dimanche et on indique Mo-Sa pour les
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Hi, On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 07:52:49PM -0700, Kate Chapman wrote: What about in the situations where locals would like to make their own map but this is not financially feasible? If we are creating truly a free map of the entire world it is important to figure out how not to just make a map of the privileged. Should lack of access to internet and technology be a reason someone can't contribute to this map? This is what humanitarian mapping truely should be about, about enabling people to use mapping technology. It should not be about giving them prefabricated maps. For a truely inspiring example, I recommend a talk from last years SOTM: https://vimeo.com/115410141 The map examples shown are truely beautiful and are much more representive of the region than anything a remote mapper could have done. I've worked with groups where we did on the ground mapping both through our own digitizing or through that of others. Honestly in most cases people were happy to not have to trace every building themselves. They could then simply put in the names/address information. Though we should think about what types of features and how we do our tagging where culture/experience can come in. For example what someone might think if as a track in their experience may be a secondary road in others. Exactly. Large scale remote mapping projects like the HOT activations or the Missing Maps projects are essentially foreigners creating maps for foreigners (the NGOs) or their employees. It is no doubt very useful for them but it creates a precedence that will shape the region forever. We've essentially seen the same thing with imports in the western world. The map of the US is essentially shaped by the TIGER imports, the French map by Cadastre etc. The difference is that in these cases, it was the local community that made the conscious decision to import this data and now has to live with it for better or worse. In the case of remote mapping it is somebody else who decides the fate of the map. What I particularly liked about the talk above is that they started out with letting people decide on their own what a map is. Such a bottom-up approach might be useful in other cases, too. Start with creating a map that is completely independent of the global community and once it is sufficiently developped, look into integrating it in the global map by mapping the features to our tagging schema. It would also be easier to make a case for new features to be rendered this way. Diversity to me has never just been gender. Though it has been shown that if you make a place welcoming to women it also makes it more inviting for other underrepresented groups. Intersectional feminism is about equality for everyone. This argument still has a sour taste to me. In my experience, the issue is not that OSM is not welcoming for woman but simply that it is not interesting enough for them. The outcome is the same but the actions to take are vastly different. I do agree with you though, that finding a solution to attract more woman will also show a way to attract other underrepresented groups. After all, it is exactly the same argument as above: the interests of the map makers and the potential map users don't match. I actually agree with Christoph here. In the end it always comes back to the argument of the power of rendering. The One Map we currently show caters mainly to the overrepresented tech population (or, in the case of the HOT map, to NGOs) and that gives the impression that the same is true for our data (which isn't). So maybe both, the diversity movement and humanitarian efforts should focus less on data collection and more on the data representation, i.e. make specialised maps. Lots of them. Invest in technologies that allow every community to make exactly the map they need. Because this really is the resource intensive part of OSM which most people cannot efford. Data collection is easy and cheap in comparision. The local communities will eventually mangage to do it on their own, once they see what the benefits are for themselves. Sarah ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Isn't the point of remote mapping the ability to pull a large amount of people from all parts of life together and map an area of need in a short period of time? That simply can't be done in area's affected by a disaster due to the fact they are themselves are recovering from the impact of said disaster. Asking locals for helps seems not possible. On Jun 13, 2015 9:46 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Sometimes I wonder whether remote/armchair mapping has similar effects as imports to the growth of the local community. I think we have recognized that imports has a place in osm provided it follows community principles and guidelines. Maybe its time to discuss similar principles and guidelines to remote/armchair mapping? cheers, Maning Sambale (mobile) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-cat] name:ca a qualsevol lloc?
Jo hi aporto lo meu. -Fa uns anys vaig fer una queixa a TMB sobre la catalanització d'un nom propi a l'hora d'anomenar una estació de metro.La resposta de TMB és que la llei de normalització lingüística de l'any 1985 establia a grans trets que es podia catalanitzar tot, fins i tot el cognom d'una persona.Així que legalment podem posar name:ca on ens surti dels c..pp -D'altra banda estem en un món global, en un món modern i tot i que sigui legal jo, personalment, com a català i espanyol que té com a llengua materna el castellà considero que noms que no són catalans i que són propers no tenen pq traduïr-se.Entenc que noms de ciutats principals (totes les capitals de província , per exemple) el poden tenir, tot i que jo a Cuenca li diré Cuenca i em sembla de molt pueblerino dir-li Conca, ans en aquests dies ja prefereixo veure München que no Munic i em surt New York, no Nova York. Però anant a poblacions més petites Villanueva de la Serena no serà mai Vilanova de la Serena (legal catalanització d'un topònim) com m'emprenya i em fastigueja molt que, en castellà existeixi Villanueva y Geltrú cosa que em provoca directament basques i que em fa molt mal als ulls i a la meva ciutat cada cop que he de fer un servei mundial que no contempla el català ( weather.com? http://www.weather.com/weather/today/l/SPXX1555:1:SP ) Evidentment en una cosa com OSM al final és difícil evitar que algú pugui aplicar la llei , li entrin les quatre barres pels ulls i dediqui la seva vida a catalanitzar el món mundial...però jo no ho recomano (si hi ha espanyols que posen en dubte denominacions a les nostres terres no vull saber el que pot passar si comencem a catalanitzar tota ciutat major de 2 habitants d'Extremadura i Andalusia (si téns collons me lo dius a la cara i altres PERogrullades) , hi ha moltes coses per fer a Catalunya i resta de regió Euromediterrània més útils, opino. Salut i català yopaseopor 2015-06-13 22:45 GMT+02:00 Fermí Tanyà ferm...@gmx.net: Em quedo amb el que diu l'Albert: si el lloc és prou conegut s'hi afegeix el name:ca sinó no cal. Fermí Enviat des de Samsung Mobile Missatge original De: Konfrare Albert lakonfrariadelav...@gmail.com Data: 13/06/2015 16:42 (GMT+01:00) A: OpenStreetMap in catalan talk-cat@openstreetmap.org Assumpte: Re: [Talk-cat] name:ca a qualsevol lloc? Ep! Jo penso que aquí el més important és el sentit comú. Per exemple, penso que és rellevant que els noms de països, de capitals i de grans ciutats tinguin el name:ca (de fet, el més normal és trobar-hi múltiples traduccions) i no fa gaire es comentava fer una mapping per ampliar-ne la cobertura. És evident que això ens pot repercutir en un major d'ús d'OpenStreetMap a mitjans com TV3, per exemple, a través de CartoDB o del que sigui; com vam comentar fa uns dies. En el cas de carrers i entitats d'àmbit menor penso que pot tenir sentit dins dels Països Catalans. Una muntanya com el Canigó, per exemple té sentit que inclogui el name:ca (de fet s'inclouria en l'àmbit dels Països Catalans). En una muntanya que limita amb Navarra i França trobo lògic posar-hi els noms en euskera, francès i castellà. Posar-hi el name:ca? Si és prou reconegut el nom, no veig perquè no. Els meus cinc cèntims. Salut! El dia 13 de juny de 2015, 15:29, pit...@eclipso.eu ha escrit: Jo penso que no ho és. El criteri general hauria de ser el d'utilitzar només el nom local original. Voleu un mapa d'Alemanya al vostre navegador gps on aparegui Ratisbona, Munic o Baviera en comptes de Regensburg, München o Bayern? Us seria d'utilitat? és obvi que no. El cas d'Ucraïna és diferent perquè es tracta d'una transcripció (que al meu entendre pot acompanyar, però mai substituir, el nom original en alfabet ciríl·lic). Tanmateix cal reconèixer que aquest és un tema molt, molt relliscós, on alguns poden veure una manera de preservar els topònims occitans d'altres poden veure una oportunitat per a perpetuar i continuar utilitzant topònims colonials, franquistes, etc pitort --- original message --- From: César Martínez Izquierdo cesar@gmail.com Date: 10.06.2015 12:59:10 To: Fermí Tanyà ferm...@gmx.net, OpenStreetMap in catalan talk-cat@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-cat] name:ca a qualsevol lloc? Jo crec que és correcte afegir-ho a tot arreu, sempre que l'entitat tingui un nom específicament català (e.g. Ucraïna, Londres, etc). A on no hi hagi el nom específic català, crec que no s'ha de posar, i els usuaris de les dades (nominàtim, serveis de rendering, etc) ja decidiran si pel seu cas d'ús prefereixen agafar el name o el name:es quan no hi hagi name:ca. César 2015-06-10 12:48 GMT+02:00 Fermí Tanyà ferm...@gmx.net: És correcte afegir name:ca fora de l'àmbit dels països catalans? Aquest cap de setmana vaig anar a fer un pic a Navarra i el nom del pic està en euskera, i afegeix les traduccions :es i :fr ja que el pic està just a
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Précision des données culture.gouv
Normalement toutes les entrées de la base Mérimée sont géolocalisées (points et surfaces, plutôt très précis, RGF93), même si ça n’apparait pas sur le site culture.gouv.fr. C’est vérifiable là : http://atlas.patrimoines.culture.fr/atlas/trunk/ (même si l’ergonomie est douteuse…) et il y a d’autres données, règlementaires celles-là, concernant le patrimoine (abords des MH, ex ZPPAUP, secteurs sauvegardés, etc.). Ce pourrait être une bonne chose de récupérer directement ces données (ou de les faire libérer) auprès du (par le) ministère. Un boulot pour asso fr ? ps pour les localisations actuelles sur OSM je crois avoir compris que ça vient de Wikipédia, mais je ne crois pas que ça avait été obtenu directement du ministère, plutôt par un travail à partir des adresses ? Je crois qu’il y a eu un fil là-dessus (il y a plusieurs années) Bonjour, J'essai de faire un peu d'intégration de données vers chez moi à partir des propositions d'Osmose Je regarde cette données permalink OSMOSE http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/fr/map/#zoom=15lat=44.02087lon=4.73871layer=Mapnikoverlays=FFFTitem=level=1%2C2%2C3tags=fixable= http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/fr/map/#zoom=15lat=44.02087lon=4.73871layer=Mapnikoverlays=FFFTitem=level=1%2C2%2C3tags=fixable= Correspondance avec la fiche Mérimée http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/merimee_fr?ACTION=CHERCHERFIELD_1=REFVALUE_1=PA00103184 http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/merimee_fr?ACTION=CHERCHERFIELD_1=REFVALUE_1=PA00103184 Le champs du wiki n'a rien de probant : Château (Ancien) Il n'existe pas de page wikipedia https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Roquemaureaction=editredlink=1 https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Roquemaureaction=editredlink=1mais une page sur Wikimedia http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Roquemaure_(Gard http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Roquemaure_(Gard) En recherchant je suis tombé sur http://www.monumentum.fr/chateau-pa00103184.html http://www.monumentum.fr/chateau-pa00103184.html ayant la même référence et dont le placement n'est pas correcte vu que c'est le *Château de l'Hers à Chateauneuf-du-Pape* Parcontre j'ai trouvé ce site plutôt intéressant ou l'on voit le bon placement (ou ce qui s'en rapproche le plus) *http://tools.wmflabs.org/wiwosm/osm-on-ol/commons-on-osm.php?zoom=17lat=44.05399lon=4.7826layers=BTFT http://tools.wmflabs.org/wiwosm/osm-on-ol/commons-on-osm.php?zoom=17lat=44.05399lon=4.7826layers=BTFT http://tools.wmflabs.org/wiwosm/osm-on-ol/commons-on-osm.php?zoom=17lat=44.05399lon=4.7826layers=BTFT http://tools.wmflabs.org/wiwosm/osm-on-ol/commons-on-osm.php?zoom=17lat=44.05399lon=4.7826layers=BTFT* D'où est extrait la localisation des fichiers? Car il n'y a rien dans les fiches Mérimée et je suis quand même à 5km d’écart! Merci ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [Talk-cat] name:ca a qualsevol lloc?
Potser t'agrada: openweathermap.org signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-cat mailing list Talk-cat@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-cat
Re: [Talk-it] Mappatura corretta pareti naturali/falesie per arrampicata
Non ho ancora contattato il mapper, cui ho avuto altre volte modo di confrontarmi, su altre questioni. Siccome capisco che potrebbe essere non simpatico scrivere ad un mapper (tralaltro anche lui di esperienza) per dirgli: Guarda che secondo me hai sbalgliato, devi ricorreggere a come avevo fatto io...; ho volutamente aperto questo post per creare un dibattito, discutendone in modo partecipato e democratico tra tutti voi. Aspetto altri contributi Grazie per la collaborazione -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Mappatura-corretta-pareti-naturali-falesie-per-arrampicata-tp5848054p5848100.html Sent from the Italy General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] Mappatura corretta pareti naturali/falesie per arrampicata
2015-06-14 10:45 GMT+02:00 Davide Mangraviti davide...@inwind.it: Guarda che secondo me hai sbalgliato, devi ricorreggere a come avevo fatto io...; ho volutamente aperto questo post per creare un dibattito, discutendone in modo partecipato e democratico tra tutti voi. si, ma lo potresti chiedere in maniera gentile perché ha fatto cosí, per capire se era intenzionale oppure casuale ;-) Ciao, Martin ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
The claim that the maps are only for the benefit of Westerners implies that non-Western people never travel to or trade with areas beyond their immediate neighborhoods. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On June 14, 2015 07:58:51 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 06/14/2015 02:12 PM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote: I find this point of view to be astounding in its arrogance and indeed blatant colonialistic spirit. Harsh words. In the final paragraph of your blog post, you write: In addition the locals are not the only people who will need to use a map. Tourists, passers-by, people moving their goods or offering their services also need maps of places where they go. Everyone needs a map even if not everyone wants to make it or use it. But this is exactly the criticism we're facing - bluntly put: Westerners need maps of places so they can conquer them by selling their products and services. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Le 14 juin 2015 à 14:57, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org a écrit : But this is exactly the criticism we're facing - bluntly put: Westerners need maps of places so they can conquer them by selling their products and services. Yes, if you put the History aside, not admitting the constant reinventions and recuperations. Three century ago the best maps were made by the military for their own purposes. Nowadays, more and more people can make that. Fearing a country ill-mapped (Western mode mapped) is more a stage before catching and customizing the technics. In a broader sense, one can hear a familiar music : Western World civilization is haram. Christian R. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote: Am 14.06.2015 um 17:21 schrieb Kate Chapman: Further we have additional material in the early simulations that Matt Amos did that indicate that this is not unexpected given some assumptions about editor motivation. This sort of work has not really been updated recently however. The community has grown and changed over the years. I think if we were to look at motivations today vs. years ago they would likely be different. As OSM is used on larger and larger platforms it is possible that people have begun mapping to see their edits on Foursquare or Craigslist rather than previously where people might be mapping to make their own map. I should point out that none of the above is in any way new, just conveniently ignored. Not ignored, I'm just not sure it is solid enough evidence to justify for or against imports worldwide. -Kate Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Am 14.06.2015 um 17:21 schrieb Kate Chapman: Possibly, but we cite as fact that imports stunt community growth. I don't think that has ever been proven in a way that cuts across cultures, geographies or the quality of the data being imported. People usually point to the TIGER import in the US. I don't think we can purely blame an import, there is much more going on than simply there was data already there. I'd love to see a broader, academically sound study of this. While I can't offer an academically sound study on this, simply because it is not possible, particularly at this late date, to set up a controlled experiment that could provide some more insight. I don't even think that TIGER is particularly good example BTW, because it has the added complexity of extremely questionable data being imported which is not the case in such a What we can do is compare areas which have seen early large imports of basic infrastructure to areas that have that are roughly the same cultural background and population density with nearby areas that haven't. We have numerous cases where this is possible (not for the USA), big and small, for example the Netherlands and the Canton of Solothurn. All of the cases I've looked at in such comparison indicate a weaker local community than comparable regions which didn't have such imports. Further we have additional material in the early simulations that Matt Amos did that indicate that this is not unexpected given some assumptions about editor motivation. So while there is no completely conclusive proof that large infrastructure imports early in the development of a community have a negative impact, it is not unexpected and the body of evidence clearly supports it. I should point out that none of the above is in any way new, just conveniently ignored. Simon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-br] classificação de subprefeituras.
com boundary=administrative o admin_level geralmente e suficiente, e tem mesmo função em diferenciar entre limites de nível diferente. Para nos e util onde ha mais que um tipo limite no mesmo nível, que e caso do admin_level=9 Com outro tipos de limites (boundary=maritime, boundary=political, entre outros) onde não ha admin_level o border_type e para diferenciar entre os tipos. Não todos e aplicável no brasil mas para quem também editando fora e bom conhecer. Aun Johnsen On Jun 14, 2015, at 13:53, Nelson A. de Oliveira nao...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-06-14 12:20 GMT-03:00 Vítor Rodrigo Dias vitor.d...@gmail.com: Como é isso de border_type, Nelson? Nunca vi essa tag antes... É uma outra forma de diferenciar fronteiras/limites, quando place e admin_level não são suficientes. Não creio que exista muita coisa que utilize isso, mas vai dar para a gente saber o que é uma subprefeitura, por exemplo. Portugal tem uma equivalência de 1 para 1 entre border_type e admin_level: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:border_type#Portugal Nesse caso eu acho que não há necessidade (já que tudo pode ser representado diretamente por admin_level). A ideia não é definir border_type pro que já é possível distinguir com admin_level. No nosso caso a gente teria diferentes border_types para diferenciar área representadas pelo menos admin_level. Por exemplo, locais que possuem tanto distrito e subdistrito, poderiam ser representados por: admin_level=9 + border_type=district ou admin_level=9 + border_type=subdistrict ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 7:52 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote: What about in the situations where locals would like to make their own map but this is not financially feasible? If we are creating truly a free map of the entire world it is important to figure out how not to just make a map of the privileged. Should lack of access to internet and technology be a reason someone can't contribute to this map? So what about supporting efforts like one laptop per child, to seed technology that would never be developed locally. And with those tools, see what people create. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Probleme mit Mapper - was tun?
Hallo Bernhard, Am 2015-06-14 um 19:08 schrieb Bernhard Weiskopf: Die Kontaktaufnahme ist mir drei Mal geglückt, er antwortet mit einigen Tagen Zeitverzug. Auf die Kritik geht er in keiner Weise ein, sondert ändert weiter. Wenn du ihn dreimal kontaktiert hast und das nicht gefruchtet hat, dann kannst du ihn ruhig der DWG melden (wahrscheinlich wird Frederik diesen Thread aber eh lesen, aber selber aktiv werden schadet trotzdem nicht). Die DWG wird dann vermutlich ihm eine Sperrnachricht schicken, d.h. er kann solange nicht editieren, bis er die Sperrnachricht gelesen hat. Das wirkt meistens. data ät osmfoundation.org Könntest du mal bitte die drei Changesets verlinken, die du kommentiert hast? Für Pascals Auswertungen sind die Kommentare schon zu lange her. :-( http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions#2/33.9/9.0 Hinweise auf die Mapping-Regeln und zuletzt einen direkten Link zum Wiki habe ich ihm gegeben. Er sagt, er kennt sich mit GIS aus. spass mit ernstDas heitß, er hat keine Ahnung von OSM./spass mit ernst OSM ist nicht GIS. Viele Grüße Michael -- Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten ausgenommen) I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Possibly, but we cite as fact that imports stunt community growth. I don't think that has ever been proven in a way that cuts across cultures, geographies or the quality of the data being imported. People usually point to the TIGER import in the US. I don't think we can purely blame an import, there is much more going on than simply there was data already there. I'd love to see a broader, academically sound study of this. On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 9:44 PM, maning sambale emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote: Sometimes I wonder whether remote/armchair mapping has similar effects as imports to the growth of the local community. I think we have recognized that imports has a place in osm provided it follows community principles and guidelines. Maybe its time to discuss similar principles and guidelines to remote/armchair mapping? cheers, Maning Sambale (mobile) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] cycle.travel US bike routing, and unreviewed rural TIGER
Richard Fairhurst writes: Finally, many thanks to everyone who's tested it so far, particularly Steve All - your feedback was and continues to be enormously useful. Kind of you to say this, Richard. I was delighted to help test your fine bicycle router. I wish cycle.travel, and especially cycle.travel/map the very best in the future. If you haven't tried to route a bicycle trip using this router (and its underlying OSM data), you are missing out: it is a tall problem very well addressed, and it is actually quite fun to use. See if you can't drag pins to come up with a shorter route than the algorithm does: much of the time, you can't beat it! SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-it] Mappatura corretta pareti naturali/falesie per arrampicata
Il 13/06/2015 14:15, Davide Mangraviti ha scritto: Mi sto trovando ultimamente a mappare le pareti naturali e le falesie attrezzate con chiodi, fittoni, spit ect... per l'arrampicata libera. Secondo me basterebbe come tag sport=climbing e il nome se lo ha ma vedo che qualcuno aggiunge anche leisure=pitch. Ma non c'è una struttura o un impianto... è corretta quindi l'aggiunta di quest'ultimo tag? Nel Wiki non è specificato nulla Ciao, ieri ho letto questa mail mentre ero in falesia riposando tra un tiro e l'altro :) Io inizialmente mappavo solo con sport=climbing. Poi ho notato che c'erano molte accoppiate con leisure=pitch ed ho pensato che la chiodatura di una falesia con quel che ne consegue (disgaggio, apposizione dei nomi delle vie, pulizia e manutenzione alla base della falesia, ecc..) potesse configurare l'area come pitch; a quel punto ho iniziato anch'io ad aggiungere il tag leisure. Se si decide che non va messo posso occuparmi delle falesie liguri. Guardando nella wiki trovo quanto meno curiosi i tag climbing:grade:UIAA:min=* climbing:grade:UIAA:mean=* mentre climbing:grade:UIAA:min mi potrebbe far pensare all'obbligatorio in caso di passi azzerabili, il mean è privo di ogni significato; in questo caso quale informazione si vorrebbe dare? Se si parla di monotiri non ha alcun senso; se si parla di multipitch allora varrebbe la pena di usare climbing:grade:french (o climbing:grade:UIAA) dando come valori, separati da punto e virgola, la gradazione dei singoli tiri. In questo caso chi sale saprebbe come alternarsi ai vari tiri se uno è più bravo dell'altro. Alessandro Ale_Zena_IT ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-us] cycle.travel US bike routing, and unreviewed rural TIGER
On 2015-06-13 17:08, Harald Kliems wrote: Very nice, Richard! One quick comment: I might not be the only who doesn't always change the tiger:reviewed tag when fixing TIGER-imported roads. I don't know if that's technically feasible, but maybe it would be better to check if a way has been modified since import, independent of the tiger:reviewed tag. I guess you could assign those a slightly lower priority than the ones that have tiger:reviewed=yes. You aren't alone. I stopped bothering with tiger:reviewed tags back in the Potlatch 1 days. It just isn't a well-designed tag: - not very discoverable to mappers who weren't around in 2008 - not automatic enough - doesn't say whether the names, classification, or geometry was reviewed, or whether the review covered the entire way I think we generally treat tiger:* tags as cruft these days. (I sometimes use tiger:name_* in cleaning up erroneously merged ways or ways lossily unduplicated along county lines, but that's about it.) On the other hand, ways without tiger:reviewed tags are more likely to have been entered by hand or rigorously reviewed, so it does make sense to reward such ways. But I think it'd be unfortunate to totally discount tiger:reviewed=no ways. FWIW, I also leave a lot of usable paved roads as highway=residential in rural areas, but there are plenty of considerations that vary from region to region (even within a state). On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 1:38 PM Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net mailto:rich...@systemed.net wrote: Hi all, At State of the Map US last weekend I was really pleased to unveil bicycle routing for the US (and Canada) at my site, cycle.travel http://cycle.travel. The planner, at http://cycle.travel/map , will plan a bike route for you between any two points - whether in the same city or on opposite sides of the continent. It's all based on OSM data but also takes account of elevation and other factors. I dogfooded it with a three-day ride around New York state after SOTM-US, and it found me some lovely quiet roads in and around the Catskills. I hope it'll be equally useful for the other two-wheelers amongst us. There's still a lot I want to add (as detailed at http://cycle.travel/news/new_cycle_travel_directions_for_the_us_and_canada) but I hope you enjoy it. Plug aside, there's a couple of things might be relevant to US mappers. First of all, I'm aiming high with this - the aim isn't just to make the best OSM-powered bike router of the US, but the best bike router full stop for commuters, leisure cyclists and tourers. (I leave the athletes to Strava!) Here in Britain, experience over the years has been that good bike routing and good bike cartography - historically via CycleStreets and OpenCycleMap - are a really effective way of driving contributions to OSM. So if you know cyclists who aren't yet contributing to OSM, maybe throw this at them - and if it doesn't find the route they'd recommend, maybe there's some unmapped infrastructure they could be persuaded to add! Second, the routing and cartography both heavily distrust unreviewed TIGER. In other words, it won't route over a rural road tagged as highway=residential tiger:reviewed=no Any road with tiger:reviewed removed or altered, any road in urban areas, and any road with highway=unclassified or greater is assumed to be a usable paved road. (There are a few additional bits of logic but that's the general principle.) Unreviewed rural residentials are shown on the map (high zoom levels) as a faint grey dashed line, explained in the key as Unsurveyed road. I've been finding this a really useful way of locating unreviewed TIGER and fixing it... it's actually quite addictive. :) Looking for roads which cross rivers, or with long sweeping curves, is an easy way of identifying quick wins. My modus operandi is to retag 2+-lane roads with painted centrelines as tertiary, smaller paved roads as unclassified, and just to take the tiger:reviewed tag off paved residential roads. Anything unpaved gets a surface tag and/or highway=track. I can't promise minutely updates I'm afraid - the routing/map update process takes two full days to run so it'll be more monthly than minutely. But I hope you find it as useful as I do. You'll see there's a tiny little pen icon at the bottom right of http://cycle.travel/map which takes you to edit the current location in OSM. Finally, many thanks to everyone who's tested it so far, particularly Steve All - your feedback was and continues to be enormously useful. cheers Richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 6:12 AM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson j...@betra.is wrote: Who said anything about Westerners? Projects like mapping entire Botswana and Lesotho is not for HOT issues, acute distress. It is for making it easier for the local economies to grow, to use maps like the Western world does to great effect. Do you -- or anyone -- have any evidence at all as to who *reads* and *uses* the OSM maps in these areas? Is there any evidence at all it's local people. Or is it all western aid agencies? Are the OSM maps even in a format that local people or local businesspeople find useful? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
We need to encourage local mapping, but large-scale disasters create a need for immediate maps, which, in some cases, means outside help is needed. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On June 14, 2015 13:35:09 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 7:52 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote: What about in the situations where locals would like to make their own map but this is not financially feasible? If we are creating truly a free map of the entire world it is important to figure out how not to just make a map of the privileged. Should lack of access to internet and technology be a reason someone can't contribute to this map? So what about supporting efforts like one laptop per child, to seed technology that would never be developed locally. And with those tools, see what people create. -- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-co] pregunta: OpenStreetMap offline en un computador sin internet es posible?
Buenos dias Si bien no lo probe en el pasado tla vez tambien les sirva navfree https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.navfree.android.OSM.ALLhl=es Harrierco From: aguil...@un.org To: talk-co@openstreetmap.org Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 13:48:06 + Subject: Re: [Talk-co] pregunta: OpenStreetMap offline en un computador sin internet es posible? Estimados todos Muchas gracias por las recomendaciones. Estoy preparando un documento con la descripción del proceso y lo compartiré en breve. Un abrazo Luis ___ Luis Hernando AGUILAR RAMIREZ | Information Management Officer | United Nations Mission for Ebola Emergency Response - UNMEER | aguil...@un.org | twitter: @luishernando | skype: qu1x0t3 | Tie-line ext 174-2104 | Tel: +233(0)540108014 Ghana | Tel +232(0)99500634 Sierra Leone Some of our tools: https://www.humanitarianresponse.info/disaster/ep-2014-41-gin http://ebolaresponse.un.org/un-mission-ebola-emergency-response https://ebolageonode.org https://data.hdx.rwlabs.org/ebola http://ors.ocharowca.info/ebola/ http://nerc.sl https://www.facebook.com/UNMEER http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrVWthPkPMmfQyLfKr-8idi4vn4T131p2 https://www.flickr.com/unmeer/ From: Leonardo Gutierrez [mailto:l...@nuevoartesano.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2015 9:22 PM To: OpenStreetMap Colombia Subject: Re: [Talk-co] pregunta: OpenStreetMap offline en un computador sin internet es posible? Gracias Marco Antonio, En caso de necesitarse el osmand tambien puede instalarse en una tablet con android. El 9 de junio de 2015, 12:23, Marco Antonio marcoantoniofr...@gmail.com escribió: 2015-06-09 11:46 GMT-04:00 Luis Hernando Aguilar aguil...@un.org: Quisiera preguntarles si hay alguna forma de tener la cartografía de OpenStreetMap en un computador sin internet. ... Es necesario buscar por nombres de las calles o puntos de interés (tal cual en OSMAND) pero poderlo hacer en el computador. MapFactor: Navigator Free funciona desde una netbook aunque sólo con Windows (quizá con wine se pueda arrancar para GNU/Linux) utiliza la data de OSM y es totalmente offline. La actualización de la data es online. Hace mucho tiempo hice una prueba (2) pero sólo navegación.. funciona muy bien. La búsqueda indica que tiene pero no probé. Abrazos, Marco Antonio (1) http://navigatorfree.mapfactor.com/ (2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSsa1q_pIgU ___ Talk-co mailing list Talk-co@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-co ___ Talk-co mailing list Talk-co@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-co ___ Talk-co mailing list Talk-co@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-co
Re: [Talk-us] Data sources for National Monument boundaries?
Ian McEwen writes: Does anyone know where this data is available/usable for OSM purposes? You might try http://data.fs.usda.gov/geodata/edw/datasets.php?dsetCategory=boundaries where you can scroll down to National Forest Lands with Nationally Designated Management or Use Limitations and download the shapefile. (Shapefiles can be opened in JOSM if you also install a plugin). These data only contain National Monuments WITHIN National Forests, but the data are not even a week old, and are at least something. I don't know what is included in Arizona, but it's probably worth a look. If this is daunting, too large a dataset, or you need additional technical help, email me and I'll send you my Ten steps for getting USFS data into OSM tutorial, which I've sent out several times to grateful recipients. SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-br] classificação de subprefeituras.
2015-06-14 12:20 GMT-03:00 Vítor Rodrigo Dias vitor.d...@gmail.com: Como é isso de border_type, Nelson? Nunca vi essa tag antes... É uma outra forma de diferenciar fronteiras/limites, quando place e admin_level não são suficientes. Não creio que exista muita coisa que utilize isso, mas vai dar para a gente saber o que é uma subprefeitura, por exemplo. Portugal tem uma equivalência de 1 para 1 entre border_type e admin_level: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:border_type#Portugal Nesse caso eu acho que não há necessidade (já que tudo pode ser representado diretamente por admin_level). A ideia não é definir border_type pro que já é possível distinguir com admin_level. No nosso caso a gente teria diferentes border_types para diferenciar área representadas pelo menos admin_level. Por exemplo, locais que possuem tanto distrito e subdistrito, poderiam ser representados por: admin_level=9 + border_type=district ou admin_level=9 + border_type=subdistrict ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
I think little can be said against careful, respectful mapping of base infrastructure (aka major road and other transportation facilities), as far as possible with input from the local inhabitants, particularly in the case of emergencies, by harnessing the combined prowess of OSM mappers. As had been said by others it has the potential to provide a useful framework for adding further details and it scratches our particular itch, for whatever reasons, to have a working map in such regions. As long as the respect includes thinking about what can really be usefully done remotely, I think we are net better with than without. In any case it requires experience with OSM to make reasonable decisions and less is very often more in these situations. On the other hand a lot can be said against using empty spaces on the map for marketing purposes, using newbies to doodle on the map where we have the most vulnerable regions in the world, and leaving wastelands of junk in the data which will completely overwhelm any budding local community. I could go on to point out that the later has a negative impact on the rest of OSM and does a disservice to the people participating in such activities however well intentioned they may be, but I'll leave that for an other day. Simon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Data sources for National Monument boundaries?
Steve, That Ten Steps plan sounds interesting. I would appreciate a copy as well. Clifford On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 8:41 AM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote: Ian McEwen writes: Does anyone know where this data is available/usable for OSM purposes? You might try http://data.fs.usda.gov/geodata/edw/datasets.php?dsetCategory=boundaries where you can scroll down to National Forest Lands with Nationally Designated Management or Use Limitations and download the shapefile. (Shapefiles can be opened in JOSM if you also install a plugin). These data only contain National Monuments WITHIN National Forests, but the data are not even a week old, and are at least something. I don't know what is included in Arizona, but it's probably worth a look. If this is daunting, too large a dataset, or you need additional technical help, email me and I'll send you my Ten steps for getting USFS data into OSM tutorial, which I've sent out several times to grateful recipients. SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Am 14.06.2015 um 19:33 schrieb Kate Chapman: I should point out that none of the above is in any way new, just conveniently ignored. Not ignored, I'm just not sure it is solid enough evidence to justify for or against imports worldwide. If we can't extrapolate from the past we will obviously never be able to provide enough solid evidence: tomorrow OSM is different than today. The likelihood that we will ever again have large infrastructure imports as we have had in the past is low, as a result it is very unlikely that we will ever get new data and be able to settle this argument. As said the body of evidence points one way and more can't really be said. Simon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] a plea to armchair mappers
On 2015-06-11 06:42, Richard Welty wrote: please, please when doing the armchair mapping thing, be aware that aerial imagery may be several years out of date. yesterday i discovered that a highway reconfiguration i'd mapped in Rensselaer, NY had been realigned with the out-of-date bing aerial imagery. i was able to locate my GPX tracks and put it back, but i still had to revisit the site to re-verify some connecting roads. i had even put a README tag on the roads warning that the imagery was out of date, but the armchair mapper didn't bother to, you know, read the README. With both outdated imagery and the Ohio River [1], I've had better luck placing redundant `note` tags on every way that such a mapper would be inclined to delete. iD shows `note` in a big box in the sidebar. It's a bit harder to miss than a (heretofore) ad-hoc tag that would be relegated to the All Tags section. Potlatch 2 doesn't support anything like it, unfortunately. If it gets really bad, you could try spelling out DO NOT ERASE in aerialway=contrail ways. :-P [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ohio_River -- m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-br] classificação de subprefeituras.
Como é isso de border_type, Nelson? Nunca vi essa tag antes... Em 14 de junho de 2015 01:29, Nelson A. de Oliveira nao...@gmail.com escreveu: 2015-06-14 1:26 GMT-03:00 Lists li...@gimnechiske.org: São Paulo SP tem subprefeituras e distritos no admin_level 9 Vitoria ES tem distritos e subdistritos no admin_level 9 Essas coisas vão ser diferenciadas por border_type, já que não dá por admin_level (e justamente por isso precisa ver o que mais existe e definir border_types pro Brasil) ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br -- Vítor Rodrigo Dias Revisor de textos Tradutor port/ing/port e port/esp/port Telefone: (31) 7360-9421 - TIM ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-ht] [OSM-talk-fr] Orfeo Tool box
Bonjour, - Mail original - On revient avec Jean Guilhem d'un hackfest sur Orfeo Tool box https://www.orfeo-toolbox.org/ [...] Donc si il y a des personnes interessées par cet outil ou peut toujours faire un tour de table pour qui utilise quoi... Étant impliqué à la marge[1] dans le projet, je connais un peu l'outil sans être le moins du monde compétent en traitement d'image. Je suis convaincu qu'Orfeo Toolbox présente un réel intérêt dans le cadre d'OSM, notamment avec la future mise à disposition des images Sentinel 2. Nous pourrons alors utiliser Orfeo Toolbox - OTB pour les intimes - pour réaliser les classifications par lesquelles on détermine l'occupation du sol. Il nous permettra de produire des jeux de polygones comparables à ceux de Corine Land Cover en plus précis (du fait d'une résolution spatiale de 10m au lieu de 30m et de la bien plus grande fréquence des clichés). Sébastien [1] : J'administre les serveurs d'Orfeo Toolbox et je suis l'auteur des premiers paquets pour Ubuntu et CentOS -- Sébastien Dinot, sebastien.di...@free.fr http://sebastien.dinot.free.fr/ Ne goûtez pas au logiciel libre, vous ne pourriez plus vous en passer ! ___ Talk-ht mailing list Talk-ht@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ht Notez! Vous pouvez utiliser Google Translate (http://translate.google.com) pour traduire les messages.
[Talk-de] Probleme mit Mapper - was tun?
Hallo an alle, im Bereich Käfertaler Wald in Mannheim ist ein relativ neuer Mapper unterwegs. Er ändert vorhandene Wegnamen oder ergänzt Phantasienamen, ändert Wegtypen (Waldwege: hightway = track - service, road oder footway), ergänzt maxspeed = 10 oder 30 oder 50, obwohl nirgends im Wald ein Schild steht, zeichnet auf eine Waldwegkreuzung einen Parkplatz und einiges mehr. Dabei werden auch schon mal Wege unterbrochen, weil sie zwar optisch zusammenhängen, die Verbindungspunkte aber nur dicht nebeneinander liegen. Beispiele: Parkplatz: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/346798057 Waldweg mit Schranke (über 3 m (im Mittel 5 m) breit, heißt Dünenweg in den Aushangplänen): https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/32039218 Tunnel mit maxspeed = 10: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/36976044 Schmaler Weg, Fahrradverbot in BW, da width 1 m: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/33127203 Das sind nur ein paar wenige Beispiele. Langsam wird das Wegenetz im Wald zerstört. Die Kontaktaufnahme ist mir drei Mal geglückt, er antwortet mit einigen Tagen Zeitverzug. Auf die Kritik geht er in keiner Weise ein, sondert ändert weiter. Hinweise auf die Mapping-Regeln und zuletzt einen direkten Link zum Wiki habe ich ihm gegeben. Er sagt, er kennt sich mit GIS aus. Was kann ich tun? Gruß Bernhard ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
An app developer in Botswana I've been in contact with has made the first app made in Botswana that uses OSM, Kabby Cab for the entrepreneurial Kabby system (independent mini buses) in Gaborone and he's working on expanding it into an app for ordering taxis and more. As anyone knows getting something like this off the ground requires willing participation from everyone else, but now they have the tools to start working towards it. The app is at https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.keneilwe.kabbycab I'll let your insight work on finding out the beneficiaries of such locally made apps for local services. Astounding to have to argue for better maps, simply astonishing. As for the blank slate is the only way to get dedicated mapping community then we are doing great aren't we? 10 years old and we have millions of small active mapping communities... or do we. Building infrastructure happens in many places, not just for map data but also in all the meta data around that data, workflows, feedback and more. All things that are being worked on in various ways and many of which are designed to give people better feedback and encourage them to contribute more. The blank slate has had a decade and its done well in many areas, but I for one don't see it as feasible to give it another two decades to see if the theory, based on gut feeling, works in the rest of the map. --JBJ Þann 14.6.2015 18:36, skrifaði Bryce Nesbitt: On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 6:12 AM, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson j...@betra.is mailto:j...@betra.is wrote: Who said anything about Westerners? Projects like mapping entire Botswana and Lesotho is not for HOT issues, acute distress. It is for making it easier for the local economies to grow, to use maps like the Western world does to great effect. Do you -- or anyone -- have any evidence at all as to who /reads/ and /uses/ the OSM maps in these areas? Is there any evidence at all it's local people. Or is it all western aid agencies? Are the OSM maps even in a format that local people or local businesspeople find useful? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-it] Mappatura corretta pareti naturali/falesie per arrampicata
Beh mappare le singole vie di una falesia è quantomeno arduo se non impossibile.. Avevo visto che qualcuno le aveva elencate nelle note.. un lavoro di pazienza, ma si può fare.. Alessandro wrote Il 14/06/2015 20:04, Alessandro ha scritto: Guardando nella wiki trovo quanto meno curiosi i tag climbing:grade:UIAA:min=* climbing:grade:UIAA:mean=* Mi rispondo da solo :-) ho riletto la pagina del wiki: si riferisce alla falesia nel suo complesso, io prima facevo un ragionamento sulla singola via. Alessandro Ale_Zena_IT ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@ https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Mappatura-corretta-pareti-naturali-falesie-per-arrampicata-tp5848054p5848144.html Sent from the Italy General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] ***SPAM*** Re: comment taguer des panneaux biche (dot com) / animaux sauvages
Pour ajouter aux interrogations de Florian ;-) Trouvé sur Twitter : https://twitter.com/la_pollice/status/610061470995509250 Christian Rogel___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [Talk-us] a plea to armchair mappers
On 6/14/15 2:27 PM, Minh Nguyen wrote: With both outdated imagery and the Ohio River [1], I've had better luck placing redundant `note` tags on every way that such a mapper would be inclined to delete. iD shows `note` in a big box in the sidebar. It's a bit harder to miss than a (heretofore) ad-hoc tag that would be relegated to the All Tags section. Potlatch 2 doesn't support anything like it, unfortunately. well, it's nice that iD supports a note tag this way. as far as i know Potlatch does not and i tested JOSM and it doesn't seem to. so note in iD would appear to be as ad-hoc as my use of README because it sorts to the top of the tag lists in Potlatch and JOSM. so can we have one tag which is properly supported across the major editors? is that too much to ask? secondarily, if it is indeed the case that this is mostly happening because of paid mappers (i don't know that for a fact), can we please contact who ever is supervising the paid mappers and discuss whether their training program and standards could be improved? richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
El 14/06/2015 3:46 am, Paweł Paprota escribió: And i think there are a lot of other areas in OSM that represent at least as efficient (and therefore damaging) means of cultural imperialism as remote mapping. Acting as devil's advocate, I have a quick question - are you 100% sure that you are not overthinking stuff? I see discussion after discussion which delve into grand topics like diversity, freedom from proprietary software/services, freedom from corporations, now this thing with remote mappers robbing local people of something deep and profound... Don't you think you're over-analyzing everything a bit too much recently? I mean, wouldn't the energy be better spent? I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks so. Let's leave this discussion to philosophers and head back map. Eduardo ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Précision des données culture.gouv
Cet atlas permet de télécharger les données... une fois qu'on a compris l'interface très petits doigts. J'ai récupéré quelques départements d'Ile-de-France pour voir. Ca a l'air plutôt complet et propre tout ça... Le 14/06/2015 10:35, ades_...@orange.fr a écrit : Normalement toutes les entrées de la base Mérimée sont géolocalisées (points et surfaces, plutôt très précis, RGF93), même si ça n’apparait pas sur le site culture.gouv.fr http://culture.gouv.fr. C’est vérifiable là : http://atlas.patrimoines.culture.fr/atlas/trunk/ (même si l’ergonomie est douteuse…) et il y a d’autres données, règlementaires celles-là, concernant le patrimoine (abords des MH, ex ZPPAUP, secteurs sauvegardés, etc.). Ce pourrait être une bonne chose de récupérer directement ces données (ou de les faire libérer) auprès du (par le) ministère. Un boulot pour asso fr ? ps pour les localisations actuelles sur OSM je crois avoir compris que ça vient de Wikipédia, mais je ne crois pas que ça avait été obtenu directement du ministère, plutôt par un travail à partir des adresses ? Je crois qu’il y a eu un fil là-dessus (il y a plusieurs années) Bonjour, J'essai de faire un peu d'intégration de données vers chez moi à partir des propositions d'Osmose Je regarde cette données permalink OSMOSE http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/fr/map/#zoom=15lat=44.02087lon=4.73871layer=Mapnikoverlays=FFFTitem=level=1%2C2%2C3tags=fixable= Correspondance avec la fiche Mérimée http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/merimee_fr?ACTION=CHERCHERFIELD_1=REFVALUE_1=PA00103184 Le champs du wiki n'a rien de probant : Château (Ancien) Il n'existe pas de page wikipedia https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Roquemaureaction=editredlink=1mais une page sur Wikimedia http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Roquemaure_(Gard http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Roquemaure_%28Gard) En recherchant je suis tombé sur http://www.monumentum.fr/chateau-pa00103184.html ayant la même référence et dont le placement n'est pas correcte vu que c'est le *Château de l'Hers à Chateauneuf-du-Pape* Parcontre j'ai trouvé ce site plutôt intéressant ou l'on voit le bon placement (ou ce qui s'en rapproche le plus) *http://tools.wmflabs.org/wiwosm/osm-on-ol/commons-on-osm.php?zoom=17lat=44.05399lon=4.7826layers=BTFT http://tools.wmflabs.org/wiwosm/osm-on-ol/commons-on-osm.php?zoom=17lat=44.05399lon=4.7826layers=BTFT* D'où est extrait la localisation des fichiers? Car il n'y a rien dans les fiches Mérimée et je suis quand même à 5km d’écart! Merci ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
While OSM is not a politically motivated and controlled project, some of what has been discussed needs a fuller discussion. It's the poor areas of the map that need the most help and those of us with the tools to do so should ... On 14/06/15 13:18, Johan C wrote: I've searched her article for an answer to her question, but can't find it. Though there are two clues in her article: 1. 'the real target of any development-oriented data effort — actual improvements in the lives of the world’s poor and marginalized.' 2. '...to solve this problem of invisibility bestowed by poverty.' Do we, the westerners, want actual improvements in the lives of the world's poor and marginalized, or are it these people themselves who want this? And is it true that the poor are invisible (on a map) and that they have that problem? Or should it be a westerner telling them they have a problem (ah, I didn't know I had that problem) which then can be solved by mapping projects engaging locals? At the current time there is an unending flow of bodies from those poor and marginalized areas, and so perhaps the ONLY way to curb that flow is to establish just what resources are available to keep locals in their locality. Rather than spending millions 'saving them', that money would be better spent supporting local projects and not lining the pockets of the empowered few in those areas. I can only see one clear reason to help the poor people from a westerners view: in case of a disaster, NGO's can help people by providing food, clothes, housing. In order to reach them, maps are a lifesaver. Luckily OSM has the possibility of remote mapping (Google forbids it) using up-to-date satellite imagery which helps these lifesaving efforts. It amazes me that mobile phones seem to be so prevalent in these areas, so perhaps that resource should be used as an input to provide mapping data that can't easily be provided by satellite imagery such as the location of problems on the ground? Although that technology gets better support than feeding the rest of the population does seem somewhat perverse? Other than disaster mapping, it's fine to me when locals don't want their blank map being filled in at all. And if they do want a blank map being filled, they can do it themselves by the standard tools. The poor can do without mapping projects organized by non-locals. It's enough for non-locals to be there when locals ask for support. And how much of that is ACTUALLY that those who hold power in those areas simply don't want their populous to have access to that information? The whole of Africa is a disaster area and that fact needs to be properly documented and mapped, and it's ONLY a freely accessible project like OSM that can provide that service? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] cycle.travel US bike routing, and unreviewed rural TIGER
Well, you've certainly motivated me to from now on always modify the tiger:reviewed tag :-) Thanks again for your efforts! On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 2:38 PM Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Harald Kliems wrote: Very nice, Richard! One quick comment: I might not be the only who doesn't always change the tiger:reviewed tag when fixing TIGER-imported roads. I don't know if that's technically feasible, but maybe it would be better to check if a way has been modified since import, independent of the tiger:reviewed tag. Absolutely. I did consider this and it's very feasible - osm2pgsql can tell you the user who last modified a way, and if it's DaveHansenTiger or woodpeck-fixbot, you can presume it's unmodified. Unfortunately, there are way too many false positives. Partly this is consequential damage (in particular, ways which have been split) but also bulk edits - for example, in several of states, people have assigned (say) maxspeed=35mph to all ways matching certain criteria, including dirt tracks tagged as highway=residential. This means the last editor is no guarantee that a residential is actually a usable paved road. After a few experiments (and I've been working on this all year, pretty much) I concluded that the tiger:reviewed tag is the only way of doing it. I'd restate that I'm only using this on rural residentials - anything unclassified or higher, or in an urban area, is assumed ok. Personally I have F6 assigned as a shortcut key in P2 for highway=unclassified for ease of quick retagging. :) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/cycle-travel-US-bike-routing-and-unreviewed-rural-TIGER-tp5848084p5848141.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
On 13 June 2015 15:37:22 GMT+01:00, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: http://groundtruth.in/2015/06/05/osm-mapping-power-to-the-people/ I really liked that article, but to me it doesn't argues *against remote mapping* as much as it argues *for local mapping*. I think everybody already agreed that local trumps remote, and the article is enlightening about how important that is and even how to define local. But that doesn't mean that remote mapping is a bad thing. To me, remote and local are two necessary tools in the box. OSM wouldn't be hafl as good as it is today without that combinaison of multiple mapper profiles who contribute to a given area. If remote mapping slows local community growth (I have my doubts), or if a New Yorker newbie makes a mess of african highway classification, the way to treat this is to get more contributors, locals spread everywhere, real strong diversity, better tools and documentation. etc. The solution of holding off remote editing, letting the map linger in a not-very-usable state for a potentially very long time, does not sound very sensible to me. frede...@remote.org Starting a thread arguing against remote mapping from an @remote.org email address ? Love it :p ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
On 15/06/2015 2:29 AM, John Eldredge wrote: The claim that the maps are only for the benefit of Westerners implies that non-Western people never travel to or trade with areas beyond their immediate neighborhoods. There was a humours suggestion to map animal paths, rejected as not something wanted in OSM. To some native farmers those paths may be very significant. The rejection reflects a 'western culture'. The Australian Treasure was recently criticised for saying poor people don't drive cars Poor people in some countries don't have cars. More 'western culture'. --- Do these 'non western' people want/need/know of OSM? Probably not, their culture has existed without OSM for some time, introducing OSM in any form will change their culture, so do 'we' leave them encased in a cage to 'keep out western culture'? I think that is not our choice. It should be their choice. -- Now ... back to mapping. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Data sources for National Monument boundaries?
We (NPMap at the National Park Service) use the IRMA boundaries for most of our maps, but we have updated a few of the park boundaries in our own database. You can find our data here: https://nationalparkservice.cartodb.com/u/nps/tables/parks On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: Steve, That Ten Steps plan sounds interesting. I would appreciate a copy as well. Clifford On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 8:41 AM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote: Ian McEwen writes: Does anyone know where this data is available/usable for OSM purposes? You might try http://data.fs.usda.gov/geodata/edw/datasets.php?dsetCategory=boundaries where you can scroll down to National Forest Lands with Nationally Designated Management or Use Limitations and download the shapefile. (Shapefiles can be opened in JOSM if you also install a plugin). These data only contain National Monuments WITHIN National Forests, but the data are not even a week old, and are at least something. I don't know what is included in Arizona, but it's probably worth a look. If this is daunting, too large a dataset, or you need additional technical help, email me and I'll send you my Ten steps for getting USFS data into OSM tutorial, which I've sent out several times to grateful recipients. SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-ca] Ateliers OpenStreetMap à Québec
Bonjour à tous, La communauté OSM de la ville de Québec (QC) a pour habitude de se rencontrer régulièrement lors de rencontres informelles (formules 5@7) chaque dernier jeudi du mois (les JOSM). Récemment, elle a commencé des rencontres plus techniques sous forme d'ateliers. Le premier a eu lieu jeudi le 11 juin, avec un petit comité passionné et passionnant ! Merci encore à tous les participant(e)s ! Le prochain aura lieu samedi 20 Juin de 16:00 à 19:00 à la Brûlerie Limoilou. Cette liste étant une liste pan-canadienne, je ne vous envahirai pas plus avec beaucoup de détails sur des activités locales ici, mais j'invite fortement les gens concernés et/ou intéressés à vous abonner à notre liste de discussion spécifique pour la région Capitale-Nationale de la province de Québec : http://listes.osmqc.ca/listinfo/capitale-nationale Vous recevrez ici tous les compte-rendus, les bulletins d'information et annonces des prochaines activités locales. Merci encore de votre participation et de votre soutien, et au plaisir ! Bruno -- Bruno Remy ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
[OSM-talk] Wiki: Adblock blocks Wikimedia Commons images
I was pretty annoyed recently, because every now and then a wikimedia image I used in a ValueTemplate would not work. For some reason I decided to check Privacy Badger today and after that disable Adblock. Well, that did the job. Not sure if we can do anything, but for people who frequently edit the wiki, maybe just whilelist the domain so you don't waste yout time trying to figure out why images are not working. Not really sure why it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't so far... __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
On 14/06/2015, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote: On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote: Further we have additional material in the early simulations that Matt Amos did that indicate that this is not unexpected given some assumptions about editor motivation. This sort of work has not really been updated recently however. The community has grown and changed over the years. I think if we were to look at motivations today vs. years ago they would likely be different. As OSM is used on larger and larger platforms it is possible that people have begun mapping to see their edits on Foursquare or Craigslist rather than previously where people might be mapping to make their own map. Another aspect I see is that in the western world, proprietary maps were already pretty decent when OSM started. In that context, the fun of mapping a whole town is a important factor of community building. Because otherwise, pragmatism entice people to contribute to the proprietary map that they already use instead. But if you're in an area of the world where government and commercial maps are bad, and a HOT task suddenly propels OSM to being very obviously the best map available for the region, then pragmatism brings contributors to OSM instead. Compounding this effect, if you live in these areas, chances are that life is hard and the you don't have much time for editing or much mood for fun town drawing. In that context, you're more likely to contribute if you can add a street name here and a POI there than if you need to trace the basic road network first. You can take these musings with a grain of salt since I bring no study to show how important these effects are, but I'd be really surprised if the criterias that drive community-building of Nepal or Liberia were the same criterias as for the USA or Netherlands. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-GB] Coastline bleed (yet again)
Hi A blue water bleed has occurred again, presumably from a broken coastline. I used geofabric to try an find a split. The only one it located was here: http://tinyurl.com/qy3vfjv I hopefully fixed the problem at 12:31, just 1 hour 20 minutes after the problem was created. Unsure how often geofabric updates but at midnight Sun/Mon it was still showing as unconnected way the area of blue bleed was increasing. A solution has to found to prevent this from happening in the future. I'm aware that everyone makes mistakes, but the aftermath of one small error in the coastline is very long. I don't understand why the rendering of the leak occurs virtually instantly but any repair rendering takes days or even weeks. Could someone please explain? Cheers Dave F. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-us] cycle.travel US bike routing, and unreviewed rural TIGER
On 6/14/2015 2:24 PM, Harald Kliems wrote: Well, you've certainly motivated me to from now on always modify the tiger:reviewed tag :-) Thanks again for your efforts! The most important change is probably setting appropriate surface information. I don't know the exact secret sauce magic of cycle.travel, but surface information is very important for selecting reasonable routes on a bike - or indeed, any non-foot method of transportation. Also, keep in mind, most rural highway=residential from TIGER should be either highway=unclassified, highway=track, highway=service, or deleted. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Kate Chapman writes: Possibly, but we cite as fact that imports stunt community growth. I don't think that has ever been proven in a way that cuts across cultures, geographies or the quality of the data being imported. People usually point to the TIGER import in the US. I don't think we can purely blame an import, there is much more going on than simply there was data already there. Agreed. The TIGER import is not necessarily the reason for a community growing only slowly. Pit against that the public domain USGS maps (unlike, say, the OS Landranger maps), the very public-domain TIGER data that we imported, or the various mapping services like Google Maps. In order for the armchair as import idea to hold water, it must first be shown that armchair maps are even positively correlated with a failure for a community to arise. This whole discussion started with Frederick Ramm's speculation that remote mapping is bad. I haven't seen any evidence that it is bad. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Some thoughts from a developing country - India. Maps have had a controversial role to play in the modern history of much of the Indian subcontinent, as a tool created and controlled by those who came ashore from the west. OSM has made it possible for the first time in history for the common citizen to control their map. The right to access, create and modify this map equally among everyone is what is most important. Someone from the west has every right to trace some Indian town just as someone from India has to update a new development in well mapped Europe. Unfortunately there is still great inequality in the ability to access this map. In India there is no fledging OSM community mainly because priorities in life are different. One does not get the leisure time here to contribute to the map and make it a social hobby like in Europe. Moreover the project is almost unknown because the maps are empty compared to Google and has very few users and fewer contributors. Over many years, I have remotely traced major road networks of Indian cities and towns which I now see has road details slowly coming in form local and tourist mappers. Rural areas are yet to see any local activity. Maps are a relatively new concept in Indian society and is still used only by a small minority in urban areas in daily life. Naturally one cannot expect strong OSM communities at this stage till maps gain wider reach. Remote mapping in cases like this can serve to catalyze the process by making the maps more attractive to use. I happened to talk about a few of these points in my lightning talk at SOTMUS last week which might give more context on mapping in India: https://youtu.be/4fK_cWhCQbE?t=22m1s Devoting more resources to make these maps and tools accessible to the common person would be more fruitful than worrying about colonizing countries by remote mapping. -- (planemad) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Planemad http://j.mp/ArunGanesh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
Hi All, First off, let me say that I’ve really enjoyed this discussion. I admire the mixture of passion and overall civility on a really difficult topic. I’ve honestly learned some things reading all your replies. I have a lot of thoughts about remote mapping vs. on the ground mapping but don’t have good words to pull them all together, so I won’t try here. I actually wanted to talk about Missing Maps, since I helped set it up at the Red Cross and think Erica’s article misunderstands it a little. Missing Maps is meant to be a union of remote mapping and local mapping. 50/50, even split, each with a role to play in the overall “project”. We put a lot of effort into involving, supporting and where necessary creating local mapping communities in the developing world to do the on-the-ground side of Missing Maps work. If you want to know more about that check out the video from Drishtie Patel’s presentation at State of the Map US. She tells that story better than I can here. Remote mapping was easier to set up in the early phases of the project and much more accessible to the Western “core” of OSM contributors, not to mention sympathetic journalists, who wanted to check out and perhaps contribute to the project. As a result the remote component has gotten an outsized amount of attention within the greater OSM community even though it’s only half of the story. Regarding the charges of using the map for disaster and development purposes instead of being driven by “purer” entirely local mapping objectives: guilty as charged (sort of). The Red Cross ([1]) has some long standing mechanisms to make sure the work we do responds to genuine community concerns ([2]). We try hard to be sincere about that and incorporate our newer, relatively flashier OSM work into those longstanding mechanisms. We also make sure that wherever possible, the Red Cross volunteers working on Missing Maps projects come from the communities we’re mapping themselves. But it’s true that we focus on humanitarian and development objectives, because well, we’re the Red Cross and that’s our mission. Missing Maps was set up by genuine OSM lovers who wanted to link their passion for humanitarian work with their passion for OSM. We’ve pushed the Red Cross really hard not just to use OSM data but contribute back and be responsible members of the OSM community. But we’re never going to escape our humanitarian / development focus because of who we are and we have to accept that. Transitioning this a little, let me say this about local vs. remote mapping: I strongly feel that if we want to encourage local mapping in the “purest” sense then we need to do more than wring our hands about remote mapping and imports, put local communities on pedestals and hope for the best. I think the OpenStreetMap Foundation needs to step up, organize itself and find ways to make it easier to be an OSM enthusiast throughout the world. That means helping to fund State of the Maps and scholarships to attend, holding workshops, building (much) easier to use tools, and scaling its infrastructure to handle the next 10 million contributors. People should join OSM because they want to and are passionate about it, not because some Westerners came and told them it’s important — but we can do a lot more to make those passions possible. The “deliberately weak” OSMF model does no favors to the growth of local OSM communities, especially in parts of the world where organizing communities is a pretty tough task to begin with. HOT does a lot of these things but it was set up with humanitarian objectives and has to be true to those. HOT shouldn’t be the “OSM outside of the West” institution and it’s bad for HOT and OSM both to treat it as such. Thanks for all the brilliant thoughts so far. Looking forward to the brilliant replies. - Robert [1] Doctors Without Borders / Medicines Sans Frontieres works significantly differently and I won’t pretend to speak for them. [2] Among others: http://www.ifrc.org/vca — Sent from Mailbox On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 7:34 PM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 June 2015 15:37:22 GMT+01:00, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: http://groundtruth.in/2015/06/05/osm-mapping-power-to-the-people/ I really liked that article, but to me it doesn't argues *against remote mapping* as much as it argues *for local mapping*. I think everybody already agreed that local trumps remote, and the article is enlightening about how important that is and even how to define local. But that doesn't mean that remote mapping is a bad thing. To me, remote and local are two necessary tools in the box. OSM wouldn't be hafl as good as it is today without that combinaison of multiple mapper profiles who contribute to a given area. If remote mapping slows local community growth (I have my doubts), or if a New Yorker newbie makes a mess of african highway
Re: [Talk-us] cycle.travel US bike routing, and unreviewed rural TIGER
Harald Kliems wrote: Very nice, Richard! One quick comment: I might not be the only who doesn't always change the tiger:reviewed tag when fixing TIGER-imported roads. I don't know if that's technically feasible, but maybe it would be better to check if a way has been modified since import, independent of the tiger:reviewed tag. Absolutely. I did consider this and it's very feasible - osm2pgsql can tell you the user who last modified a way, and if it's DaveHansenTiger or woodpeck-fixbot, you can presume it's unmodified. Unfortunately, there are way too many false positives. Partly this is consequential damage (in particular, ways which have been split) but also bulk edits - for example, in several of states, people have assigned (say) maxspeed=35mph to all ways matching certain criteria, including dirt tracks tagged as highway=residential. This means the last editor is no guarantee that a residential is actually a usable paved road. After a few experiments (and I've been working on this all year, pretty much) I concluded that the tiger:reviewed tag is the only way of doing it. I'd restate that I'm only using this on rural residentials - anything unclassified or higher, or in an urban area, is assumed ok. Personally I have F6 assigned as a shortcut key in P2 for highway=unclassified for ease of quick retagging. :) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/cycle-travel-US-bike-routing-and-unreviewed-rural-TIGER-tp5848084p5848141.html Sent from the USA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-it] Mappatura corretta pareti naturali/falesie per arrampicata
Il 14/06/2015 20:04, Alessandro ha scritto: Guardando nella wiki trovo quanto meno curiosi i tag climbing:grade:UIAA:min=* climbing:grade:UIAA:mean=* Mi rispondo da solo :-) ho riletto la pagina del wiki: si riferisce alla falesia nel suo complesso, io prima facevo un ragionamento sulla singola via. Alessandro Ale_Zena_IT ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
