Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Harsha Somaya]

Hello! Thank you for your response. We will start a wiki page, as per the
OSM guidelines as well. The only reason we have not yet is because we
wanted the community's thoughts and general approval. We want our wiki page
to account for what the community wants. Also, since the
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:image is used but not fully
approved, we may use this. It would be very beneficial for anyone to see a
picture of the tree being mapped. Thank you for your insights.

On Wed, Aug 9, 2023 at 7:17 PM Marc_marc  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> thanks for contacting the community
>
> Le 09.08.23 à 20:53, Harsha Somaya a écrit :
> > <
> https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/osm-tree-automation-worldwide/102197/50
>
> May I suggest you made a small wiki page about the project ?
> don't hope that ppl 'll read several threads to find faq about it :)
>
> maye the tittle should also be improved : automated in osm term mean
> you take data and change/add/delete in osm without humain review
> here it seems you want to allow our user to upload data
> into osm after human review, like any not-automated editor do
>
> > for the genus information, we are using |https://identify.plantnet.org
>
> as user of it, I find it very fine, it's better than an average human :)
>
> > Key:image , has rejected
> proposals.
>
> We're going to have to improve the wording (and even the arguments)
> because half the paragraph in question is wrong.
> the proposal was in fact rejected in 2013, which doesn't prevent the key
> from having de facto status, i.e. despite negative opinions in 2013,
> contributors thought it was an interesting attribute and used it,
> without any other alternative challenging the tag. This is (in my eyes)
> the 2nd status in terms of quality (the first being approved status,
> meaning that a majority of contributors think that the proposal is
> good... although we have seen proposals of poor quality being approved
> because the idea appealed, despite the problematic quality of the
> proposal).
>
> so if you want to use it, use it
>
> Regards,
> Marc
>
>
>
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-- 
With gratitude,
Harsha


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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Marc_marc]

Hello,

thanks for contacting the community

Le 09.08.23 à 20:53, Harsha Somaya a écrit :

, has rejected 
proposals.


We're going to have to improve the wording (and even the arguments) 
because half the paragraph in question is wrong.
the proposal was in fact rejected in 2013, which doesn't prevent the key 
from having de facto status, i.e. despite negative opinions in 2013, 
contributors thought it was an interesting attribute and used it, 
without any other alternative challenging the tag. This is (in my eyes) 
the 2nd status in terms of quality (the first being approved status, 
meaning that a majority of contributors think that the proposal is 
good... although we have seen proposals of poor quality being approved 
because the idea appealed, despite the problematic quality of the proposal).


so if you want to use it, use it

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Harsha Somaya]

Hello! Thank you for your reply. I believe many of your concerns can be
addressed here: OSM Tree Automation Worldwide - Help and support -
OpenStreetMap Community Forum
.
No trees have been added to OSM yet. The user will be able to see their
tree point on an imagery basemap. Then can adjust the point/location of the
tree if it is not where it should be on the basemap if needed. As for the
genus information, we are using https://identify.plantnet.org/ - to help
with the plant identification part. They have a state of the art accuracy
of approximately 90% for classifying plants based on plant images alone. We
are not sure if we will upload the images yet because the key we wanted to
use, Key:image - OpenStreetMap Wiki
, has rejected proposals.
This is something we are debating/willing to add if the community wants.
Hope this helps understand the project a little better.

On Wed, Aug 9, 2023 at 6:14 AM Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> from your answers I gather that you're approaching this with a certain
> amount of youthful enthusiasm that could lead to problems. It is good
> that you're discussing your plans so we can iron them out before you
> actually do anything.
>
> On 08.08.23 20:19, Harsha Somaya wrote:
> > 4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees-- code makes
> > sure that no two trees at the same GPS can be added
>
> You will have to make sure that the tree to be added is not already in OSM.
>
> I do not think that the GPS position alone is good enough to add a tree;
> it is very likely that if you do that, you will add trees in buildings
> and in the middle of roads. I think that it will be necessary for the
> user, when they take the photo of the tree, to also manually move a
> marker on the map to the correct location.
>
> Doing this, if the map is OSM, will put your location data under ODbL.
>
> > 5) which tags will be used-- species, genus, maybe height, image of
> > tree, maybe wikipedia tree about species, tree type (broadleaf versus
> not)
>
> Are species and genus user-specified or will you be trying to determine
> those automatically from the photo? If the latter, I would advise against.
>
> How do you intend to upload the "image of tree" to OSM?
>
> Best
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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-- 
With gratitude,
Harsha


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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Données Overture Maps

[Marc_marc]

Bonjour,

merci pour cet interessant message

Le 08.08.23 à 23:05, LeTopographeFou a écrit :
Comment faciliter la vie des fournisseurs de service en faisant 
abstraction des limites du modèle de stockage OSM


et j'ajouterais : comment faire pour que ce projet
ne résulte pas en un Xieme "standard" de plus ?
car les entreprises font deja cela (et meme en partie
la maj bdd des serveurs de rendu) mais chacune partiellement
dans son coin.
on voit bien que meme niveau fr, l'idée a déjà forké
par rapport à ce qui avait discuté il y a des années
sans qu'aucun des 2 n'ai abouti réelement.


deux manières de gérer les adresses


voir 2x3 :) 2=addr:street<>associatedStreet 3 = noeud flotant, noeud sur 
l'outer, batiment


c'est le soucis qui a provoqué l'abandon d'osm chez un client :
le client avait besoin de pouvoir faire un reverse de qualité
cad si une position dans un batiment donne l(es) adresse(s) du batiment
(ou pour ceux qui veulent l'autre version : l'adresse de la porte
du batiment ou des portes)
cela impliquait un pré-traitement lourd des adresses flotantes (celle 
qui sont positionné hors de l'empreinte du batiment)

et quand tu as 2 adresses en bord de rue pour 2 batiments
l'un devant l'autre par rapport à la rue, rien ne permet
de connaitre ainsi l'adresse du batiment (j'en ferrai
un autre sujet si cela interesse quelqu'un ce vieux problème)

évidement d'autres ont peut-être un besoin différent

donc tu te retrouves à faire 2 versions ou avoir un moyen
en bdd pour choisir l'un ou l'autre

et tu extrapoles cela à tout :
faut-il pouvoir identifier l'accessibilité des bureaux de poste
selon que l'info vient d'osm, de l'opendata ou de 
l'opendata-pseudo-intégré-dans-osm ?


le code pour le prétraitement des addr est malheureusement fermé (quelle 
bétise de garder un code abandonné fermé) mais l'algo est facile

je serrai ravi de progresser sur ce point avec qui le souhaite

j'ai aussi sur la pile de pouvoir prétraité les données
pour convertir les tags déprécié lorsqu'il y a une relation 1:1
avec un nouveau tag

et le dernier sur la pile : virer les tags jettables des extraits osm-fr

A mon avis (et comme j'ai déjà eu l'occasion de l'évoquer  
de manière sporadique) OSM gagnerait à disposer d'un service  
facilitant la mise à disposition des données qu'il agrège.


le soucis est le temps
qui va passer des heures à aider l'utilisation d'osm en entreprise ?
moi cela me motive... mais l'adn d'osm est l'artisanat bénévole axé
contribution. on (sous-)entend trop souvent que l'utilisation
de la donnée est presque sans importance

Cordialement,
Marc



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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

from your answers I gather that you're approaching this with a certain 
amount of youthful enthusiasm that could lead to problems. It is good 
that you're discussing your plans so we can iron them out before you 
actually do anything.


On 08.08.23 20:19, Harsha Somaya wrote:
4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees-- code makes 
sure that no two trees at the same GPS can be added


You will have to make sure that the tree to be added is not already in OSM.

I do not think that the GPS position alone is good enough to add a tree; 
it is very likely that if you do that, you will add trees in buildings 
and in the middle of roads. I think that it will be necessary for the 
user, when they take the photo of the tree, to also manually move a 
marker on the map to the correct location.


Doing this, if the map is OSM, will put your location data under ODbL.

5) which tags will be used-- species, genus, maybe height, image of 
tree, maybe wikipedia tree about species, tree type (broadleaf versus not)


Are species and genus user-specified or will you be trying to determine 
those automatically from the photo? If the latter, I would advise against.


How do you intend to upload the "image of tree" to OSM?

Best
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Données Overture Maps - export OSM normalisé

[Vincent de Château-Thierry]

Bonjour,

> De: "Cyrille37 OSM" 
> 
> Il me semble que quelques coder français (@panierAvide ? @cquest ? @vdct
> ? ...) ont fait une telle proposition il y a qlqs années, un export osm
> simplifié et normalisé.

Il peut s'agir de ça : 
https://forum.openstreetmap.fr/t/publier-des-donnees-osm-augmentees/9043

vincent

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Données Overture Maps - export OSM normalisé

[Cyrille37 OSM]

Bonjour

On 08/08/2023 23:05, LeTopographeFou wrote:
A mon avis (et comme j'ai déjà eu l'occasion de l'évoquer de manière 
sporadique) OSM gagnerait à disposer d'un service facilitant la mise à 
disposition des données qu'il agrège. En entrée ce service prendrait 
la base OSM avec ses forces et ses faiblesses, en sortie il 
proposerait une (ou plusieurs...) bases de données propres et 
pré-processées, aux schémas clairs et pensés pour être efficace et 
sans interprétation.


Il me semble que quelques coder français (@panierAvide ? @cquest ? @vdct 
? ...) ont fait une telle proposition il y a qlqs années, un export osm 
simplifié et normalisé.


Cyrille37
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