Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
Joseph Gentle wrote: You can see my beautiful city. http://maps.google.com.au/?ie=UTF8ll=-33.911633,151.24054spn=0.03298,0.065918z=15layer=ccbll=-33.9172,151.226114panoid=SF1CU5fcTX8XqlKyXRxwogcbp=1,123.60785767574839,,0,6.094238783200709 Good for filling in all the missing street names. OSM is effectivly providing a competitor to Google with regard to mapping. I doubt a judge would look to kindly on noting details from google street view to improve OSM. *However* this is a great oppertunity for Google to step up and Do The Right Thing. They should let OSM use it, just like how Yahoo let OSM use their aerial images. The register went into more details about this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/30/google_streetview_open_street_map/ Rory ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Rory McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joseph Gentle wrote: You can see my beautiful city. http://maps.google.com.au/?ie=UTF8ll=-33.911633,151.24054spn=0.03298,0.065918z=15layer=ccbll=-33.9172,151.226114panoid=SF1CU5fcTX8XqlKyXRxwogcbp=1,123.60785767574839,,0,6.094238783200709 Good for filling in all the missing street names. OSM is effectivly providing a competitor to Google with regard to mapping. I doubt a judge would look to kindly on noting details from google street view to improve OSM. *However* this is a great oppertunity for Google to step up and Do The Right Thing. They should let OSM use it, just like how Yahoo let OSM use their aerial images. The register went into more details about this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/30/google_streetview_open_street_map/ Rory OSM will not be a competitor to google until people can use OSM without first consulting a lawyer. -J ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
Hi, Oups. Sorry for my Engilsh then I think I use wrongly the words here. I shouldn't comment legal issues then :-) I don't think a service can be copyrighted. When I was talking about google's services, I was saying Google offer the service to put a name on a given street via the Google Map if this service cannot be copyrighted I will use google services to complete OSM then ;-D Those conditions could only be agreed on in a contract. But then they would need to make you agree. I don't really understand you here sorry. I just wanted to say that I think google street view cannot been used for OSM and it seems that from Steve Email that it is confirmed (for the moment): SteveC to Licensing, Openstreetmap [OSM-legal-talk] Google Street View No, it cannot be used. I'm talking to some people about this but we're not at a stage where I can announce anything positive or negative about it. On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 11:22 PM, Matthias Julius [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Michael Stilmant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think the problem is not the image itself but the fact that, thanks to google services you can locate this image and say this is related to that street I need to name into OSM So it is a derivated work from Google service; so it is not allowed. I don't think a service can be copyrighted. Those conditions could only be agreed on in a contract. But then they would need to make you agree. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 11:58 +1000, Joseph Gentle wrote: You can see my beautiful city. http://maps.google.com.au/?ie=UTF8ll=-33.911633,151.24054spn=0.03298,0.065918z=15layer=ccbll=-33.9172,151.226114panoid=SF1CU5fcTX8XqlKyXRxwogcbp=1,123.60785767574839,,0,6.094238783200709 Good for filling in all the missing street names. Interesting question. Are we allowed to use street view images for mapping (filling in street names, amenities, house numbers) or do we need explicit permission like for aerial images? Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
wer-ist-roger wrote: Hello Stefan, Interesting question. Are we allowed to use street view images for mapping (filling in street names, amenities, house numbers) or do we need explicit permission like for aerial images? If your not sure about the legal aspect DON'T use it! And from my point of few it is not allowed to use Googles photos. And if Google were partly evil (though they claim not to be), they might alter their image obfuscating code (to blur people's faces etc) to identify street name signs, and transpose one street sign onto another, and create an easter egg in their creative work. Since they already claim to have the ability to blur vehicle registration plates, and people's faces, if this needs even a little human intervention to achieve, then it could be counted as a creative work, and subject to not only database right (the geolocation / rectification work of the images), and copyright on the eventual image that has has processing done on it. So. I wouldn't trust it, and I wouldn't use it, unless Google can explicitly say we're allowed to do it, and if Google can explicitly say that they're not doctoring the bits of the images that we're interested in - like street names, building names and so on) -- SImon Hewison ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
Stephen, Stephen Gower wrote: That argument surely applies to aerial images also, and yet consensus is that getting facts from them would create a derived work incompatible with our licence. Just for the record: The issue is highly contended and it would be wrong to speak of consensus. If there's any consensus then it is that when in doubt we prefer to be careful and so we don't copy from aerial images - even though many of us believe that it would be perfectly legal to do so. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 10:36 +0200, Erik Johansson wrote: First of all I have never been able to see the name of a street in my 20 minutes of watching google streetview. But you shoudl be able to get these things from them: It is no problem at all to spot street names and even house numbers for example in Paris (and in Google Earth). And since they are facts and not *indexed* in a database so it should be ok. So, its couch-potato-mapping until Google blurrs street names and house numbers, too? Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Stefan Holst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 11:58 +1000, Joseph Gentle wrote: You can see my beautiful city. http://maps.google.com.au/?ie=UTF8ll=-33.911633,151.24054spn=0.03298,0.065918z=15layer=ccbll=-33.9172,151.226114panoid=SF1CU5fcTX8XqlKyXRxwogcbp=1,123.60785767574839,,0,6.094238783200709 Good for filling in all the missing street names. Interesting question. Are we allowed to use street view images for mapping (filling in street names, amenities, house numbers) or do we need explicit permission like for aerial images? First of all I have never been able to see the name of a street in my 20 minutes of watching google streetview. But you shoudl be able to get these things from them: turn restrictions stop signs cycleways pavements maxspeed And since they are facts and not *indexed* in a database so it should be ok. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
Hello Stefan, Interesting question. Are we allowed to use street view images for mapping (filling in street names, amenities, house numbers) or do we need explicit permission like for aerial images? If your not sure about the legal aspect DON'T use it! And from my point of few it is not allowed to use Googles photos. wer-ist-roger ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Stefan Holst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And since they are facts and not *indexed* in a database so it should be ok. So, its couch-potato-mapping until Google blurrs street names and house numbers, too? Google do index the names an publish that database over the images, I'm not sure I trust people to only copy from the images. That is something for the legal mailinglist to discuss. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
How would we avoid looking at - or prove that we avoid looking at - all the street names on Google Maps, with which Street View is inextricably integrated? - L ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
Stephen Gower [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:36:14AM +0200, Erik Johansson wrote: On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Stefan Holst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 11:58 +1000, Joseph Gentle wrote: Good for filling in all the missing street names. Interesting question. Are we allowed to use street view images [...] [...] And since they are facts and not *indexed* in a database so it should be ok. That argument surely applies to aerial images also, and yet consensus is that getting facts from them would create a derived work incompatible with our licence. Well, if reading a road sign from a picture is creating a derived work of that picture than looking up a word in a dictionary also creates a derived work of that dictionary. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
And using contacts or glasses is a derived work too... the vendor could have twisted the photons to inject 'lye' street into your vision. a On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 9:26 AM, Matthias Julius [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Stephen Gower [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 10:36:14AM +0200, Erik Johansson wrote: On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Stefan Holst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 11:58 +1000, Joseph Gentle wrote: Good for filling in all the missing street names. Interesting question. Are we allowed to use street view images [...] [...] And since they are facts and not *indexed* in a database so it should be ok. That argument surely applies to aerial images also, and yet consensus is that getting facts from them would create a derived work incompatible with our licence. Well, if reading a road sign from a picture is creating a derived work of that picture than looking up a word in a dictionary also creates a derived work of that dictionary. Matthias ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- anselm 415 215 4856 http://hook.org http://makerlab.com http://meedan.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
El Martes, 5 de Agosto de 2008, Matthias Julius escribió: Well, if reading a road sign from a picture is creating a derived work of that picture than looking up a word in a dictionary also creates a derived work of that dictionary. Not really. The issue here is that the road sign is not covered by any copyrights, but the G StreetView image *is*. Google *can* file a suit if you copy the street sign, as their lawyers firmly believe that photographs taken automatically by a car can and are protected by copyright. Cheers, -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega [EMAIL PROTECTED] The solution of this problem is trivial and is left as an exercise for the reader. -- Standard textbook cookie signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
Frederik Ramm wrote: Just for the record: The issue is highly contended and it would be wrong to speak of consensus. If there's any consensus then it is that when in doubt we prefer to be careful and so we don't copy from aerial images - even though many of us believe that it would be perfectly legal to do so. Bye Frederik Do we have any lawyers in the OSM community to help clear this? Igor -- http://igorbrejc.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
On 5 Aug 2008, at 14:28, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: dont avoid looking at them. But add names according to your own knowledge. Let's say I know reasonably well in my own mind most of the streets in the centre of the town where I live. Let's also say there's a particular street I want to name on OSM, but that I can't remember if it's Kings Road or King Street. So I go to Google StreetView to check. But as I fire up Google Maps to get to StreetView, I accidentally notice the Google Maps label Kings Road on the street in question. I proceed to look at the StreetView picture, and - whether I find something useful there or not, but especially if the street sign is barely legible - my state of mind is contaminated by looking at the Google Maps label. In this state, I cannot add data to OSM. - L ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
Hi, Laurence Penney wrote: [stuff about contaminated state of mind prohibiting data entry to OSM] It is conceivable that someone moves into a new town, gets everywhere by legally using Google maps, never really looking at a street sign (at least not before knowing exactly what will be on there from his Google map), and after a year or so knowing most of the place by hard. According to your strict reading, the sad git would probably be unable to contribute to OSM in this town, ever, because is brain is now a derived work of Google maps... Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
Hi, Igor Brejc wrote: Do we have any lawyers in the OSM community to help clear this? It is not an issue that can be cleared by lawyers since they have wildly different opinions themselves. For example, one court in Germany has said that the person operating the shutter on an aerial imagery camera - or the person writing the program that does so - is legally the owner of the resulting data. Another court has said that such photos are not subject to IP law. And you have the same mess everywhere - even within one country. It is surely not something where a lawyer simply has to read a book one evening and tell us the truth the next morning. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
Ok, let's add that the lifespan of the contamination is that of short term memory. - L On 5 Aug 2008, at 19:14, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, Laurence Penney wrote: [stuff about contaminated state of mind prohibiting data entry to OSM] It is conceivable that someone moves into a new town, gets everywhere by legally using Google maps, never really looking at a street sign (at least not before knowing exactly what will be on there from his Google map), and after a year or so knowing most of the place by hard. According to your strict reading, the sad git would probably be unable to contribute to OSM in this town, ever, because is brain is now a derived work of Google maps... Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Australia has Google Street View!
You can see my beautiful city. http://maps.google.com.au/?ie=UTF8ll=-33.911633,151.24054spn=0.03298,0.065918z=15layer=ccbll=-33.9172,151.226114panoid=SF1CU5fcTX8XqlKyXRxwogcbp=1,123.60785767574839,,0,6.094238783200709 Good for filling in all the missing street names. -J ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
