Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 10:00 AM, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: In my opinion, changeset-based sources also make it clear which edit was using which source. For example, since good Bing imagery has become available, I've developed a habit to trace the buildings in an area from Bing, then go out and survey the area in order to add house numbers and other attributes to the buildings (and make sure that the imagery wasn't bogus). Seems like the way in which we work has a big impact on what method of sourcing makes the most sense. Me, I mostly work off aerial imagery, with a bit of local knowledge and the odd GPS trace. I don't work in a particularly focused way - I might start with a GPS trace, then drift off as I see interesting things to map. Others work obviously completely differently. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: I've been away for a while. But it seems to me from reading the terms that I can't say yes to them in good faith, not because I don't want to, but because I remember I derived a few things from external CC-BY-SA, and I can't now recall what they were (and this was before we had changeset comments). Hi Aevar, Out of curiosity, how do you derive stuff from a CC-BY-SA source without making a note of the source? I mean, the -BY- part means you have to attribute the source. So presumably you weren't in compliance with their licence anyway... Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
Steve Bennett-3 wrote: Hi Aevar, Out of curiosity, how do you derive stuff from a CC-BY-SA source without making a note of the source? I mean, the -BY- part means you have to attribute the source. So presumably you weren't in compliance with their licence anyway... Here's one possibility: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2011-June/058736.html (I haven't received any response yet.) -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Can-I-say-yes-to-the-ODbL-if-I-can-t-account-for-100-of-my-data-tp6481040p6482145.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
Steve Bennett-3 wrote: ..the -BY- part means you have to attribute the source. So presumably you weren't in compliance with their licence anyway... My understanding is that attribution is covered by the public attributions on this Wiki page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors and that the source tag is certainly recommended, but not enforced. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Can-I-say-yes-to-the-ODbL-if-I-can-t-account-for-100-of-my-data-tp6481040p6482339.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
Yes surely that is the situation - use the source tag when using something other than gps. I have accepted the ToC, TBH I really don't give a monkeys either way though have something of a preference for PD as it keeps life simpler, and I believe the small minority of OS OpenData I have contributed has source=OS OpenData or some such. I really don't care that much even if that is deleted. Nick -Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: - To: talk@openstreetmap.org From: Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com Date: 16/06/2011 02:07AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data? If only there were a way to indicate the *source* of a given object... This is obviously hindsight and doesn't help at this point in your situation but seriously... The source=* tag: use it. Toby On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 7:48 PM, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly my own situation, except following poor advice I accepted the new CT. Apparently it is not possible to change the CT status and my formal request to have my suspect data deleted seems to have been ignored. My recommendation is not to accept the CT, and reenter those items that you did from direct observation under a new account. Cheerio John On 15 June 2011 19:06, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: Back in 2006 I wrote the following when it still wasn't clear what the ODbL acceptance terms would be like: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 22:10, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: If someone presents me with a boolean Do you allow relicensing under the ODbL I'll have to say no because some of my edits are derived from CC-BY-SA data I don't have permission to license (and I probably can't even recall what all of it is). Which'll mean nuking 50% of all the data in Iceland most of which I've touched at some point. I've been away for a while. But it seems to me from reading the terms that I can't say yes to them in good faith, not because I don't want to, but because I remember I derived a few things from external CC-BY-SA, and I can't now recall what they were (and this was before we had changeset comments). What are my options in that situation? Do I either have to see all my work removed because I can't account for 100% of my edits or lie on the ODbL acceptance form? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:37 AM, Graham Stewart (GrahamS) gra...@dalmuti.net wrote: and that the source tag is certainly recommended, but not enforced. There is no such thing as an enforced tag in OSM. If you choose not to use a tag then that is your choice. Not using a source tag when basing your mapping on an external source is a poor choice. And not just for copyright reasons. It also lets other mappers know how much to trust the data. When I come across data that seems like it might be a little off to me I treat things that have a source=survey tag much differently than things that have a source=random import tag. Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
Toby Murray-2 wrote: There is no such thing as an enforced tag in OSM. If you choose not to use a tag then that is your choice. Enforced may have been a poor choice of word. What I meant was that, as I understand it, there is no particular licensing requirement that every node/way derived from a CC-by-SA source must have a source= tag on it (as Steve Bennett seemed to be suggesting). My understanding is that the overall attribution on the Contributors page is sufficient. This certainly intuitively fits with other CC-by-SA projects. For example if you use some CC-by-SA source code then you don't need to add an attribution comment on every line of code - you just need one somewhere prominent. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Can-I-say-yes-to-the-ODbL-if-I-can-t-account-for-100-of-my-data-tp6481040p6483737.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
2011/6/16 Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:37 AM, Graham Stewart (GrahamS) gra...@dalmuti.net wrote: and that the source tag is certainly recommended, but not enforced. There is no such thing as an enforced tag in OSM. If you choose not to use a tag then that is your choice. Not using a source tag when basing your mapping on an external source is a poor choice. And not just for copyright reasons. It also lets other mappers know how much to trust the data. When I come across data that seems like it might be a little off to me I treat things that have a source=survey tag much differently than things that have a source=random import tag. You can also put this information in the change-set-comment. IMHO this is where this belongs to. AFAIK the source-tag is disputed and it is recommended to use the changeset comments. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
On 16/06/2011 18:00, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: You can also put this information in the change-set-comment. IMHO this is where this belongs to. AFAIK the source-tag is disputed and it is recommended to use the changeset comments. The problem with the changeset source tag is that there's no granularity - one tag applies to the whole edit. Presumably the only time that this would be valid would be an entirely armchair tracing session with no local knowledge and no other on-the-ground evidence (surely not recommended) or an import (which should surely afterwards be tidied up with local knowledge anyway). Using changeset comments is even worse; it's just a bunch of text associated with a particular edit. If I wanted to know the source for updates for the Pennine Way (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/63872) I'd need to fetch the relation history (not feasible via the API I suspect), fetch 209 changeset details, and manually parse a lump of English text in each one for something that might be a source. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 12:50 PM, SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk wrote: On 16/06/2011 18:00, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: You can also put this information in the change-set-comment. IMHO this is where this belongs to. AFAIK the source-tag is disputed and it is recommended to use the changeset comments. The problem with the changeset source tag is that there's no granularity - one tag applies to the whole edit. Presumably the only time that this would be valid would be an entirely armchair tracing session with no local knowledge and no other on-the-ground evidence (surely not recommended) or an import (which should surely afterwards be tidied up with local knowledge anyway). Using changeset comments is even worse; it's just a bunch of text associated with a particular edit. If I wanted to know the source for updates for the Pennine Way (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/63872) I'd need to fetch the relation history (not feasible via the API I suspect), fetch 209 changeset details, and manually parse a lump of English text in each one for something that might be a source. I also frequently use multiple sources in a single changeset. I often flip between faster bing imagery and slower to load but better aligned and sometimes more distinct NAIP imagery. Which one I actually trace a feature from depends on multiple factors. Hence I often put source tags on individual objects. And with 84 million of them in the database, I would hardly call this tag disputed Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason avarab at gmail.com writes: I've been away for a while. But it seems to me from reading the terms that I can't say yes to them in good faith, not because I don't want to, but because I remember I derived a few things from external CC-BY-SA, and I can't now recall what they were (and this was before we had changeset comments). If it's the case that geodata is not covered by copyright (the main justification for the licence change), and therefore CC-BY-SA is not enforceable, you need not worry. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 3:00 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: You can also put this information in the change-set-comment. IMHO this is where this belongs to. AFAIK the source-tag is disputed and it is recommended to use the changeset comments. Source is disputed? By whom? I've never heard any dispute about it? I put a source tag on every single object I create, and try and update it when I modify it. IMHO changeset comments really don't work well (in Potlatch at least), and it's far too easy to include the wrong objects in a changeset. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
2011/6/17 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 3:00 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer Source is disputed? By whom? I've never heard any dispute about it? I put a source tag on every single object I create, and try and update it when I modify it. It is not completely useless but I observed that in general the more versions an object has, the less reliable the source tags on it are. Maybe you are an exception and do update every object you touch and you verify always the source on it, but most mappers actually don't. IMHO changeset comments really don't work well (in Potlatch at least), it depends how often you upload. For small edits where you just enter that place you have recently been to, I find them perfect. Bigger edits will usally get more generic comments, but when tracing from aerial imagery I include the provider and if known the year of the images. and it's far too easy to include the wrong objects in a changeset. either way you can miss some parts of your edit. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
Steve Bennett wrote: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 3:00 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: You can also put this information in the change-set-comment. IMHO this is where this belongs to. AFAIK the source-tag is disputed and it is recommended to use the changeset comments. Source is disputed? By whom? I've never heard any dispute about it? Source is very much alive. It has been suggested to use the source tag on the changeset instead of every single object edited within that changeset, but it's admittedly still mostly used the traditional way. I put a source tag on every single object I create, and try and update it when I modify it. IMHO changeset comments really don't work well (in Potlatch at least), and it's far too easy to include the wrong objects in a changeset. I put source tags on changesets now. Source tags on objects tend to get outdated, and I find updating all these tags painfully tedious. When you add new objects, it would at least still possible to mass tag them with your source, but that isn't possible when you have to insert your sources into an existing source tag's value. It seems like unnecessary effort, too, because I tend to group my edits into sensible changesets anyway and rarely use more than one source for each changeset. In my opinion, changeset-based sources also make it clear which edit was using which source. For example, since good Bing imagery has become available, I've developed a habit to trace the buildings in an area from Bing, then go out and survey the area in order to add house numbers and other attributes to the buildings (and make sure that the imagery wasn't bogus). This means that I will upload two changesets: One based on Bing, one based on survey. Looking at the history and the source tags on changesets makes it completely clear what data originates where. This wouldn't work with a source tag on the object: A source=Bing;survey does /not/ tell you that addr:housenumber=72 was surveyed and roof:color=red was determined by looking at Bing images. -- Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
Back in 2006 I wrote the following when it still wasn't clear what the ODbL acceptance terms would be like: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 22:10, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: If someone presents me with a boolean Do you allow relicensing under the ODbL I'll have to say no because some of my edits are derived from CC-BY-SA data I don't have permission to license (and I probably can't even recall what all of it is). Which'll mean nuking 50% of all the data in Iceland most of which I've touched at some point. I've been away for a while. But it seems to me from reading the terms that I can't say yes to them in good faith, not because I don't want to, but because I remember I derived a few things from external CC-BY-SA, and I can't now recall what they were (and this was before we had changeset comments). What are my options in that situation? Do I either have to see all my work removed because I can't account for 100% of my edits or lie on the ODbL acceptance form? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100%of my data?
- Original Message - From: Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com To: OpenStreetMap blather talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 12:06 AM Subject: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100%of my data? Back in 2006 I wrote the following when it still wasn't clear what the ODbL acceptance terms would be like: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 22:10, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: If someone presents me with a boolean Do you allow relicensing under the ODbL I'll have to say no because some of my edits are derived from CC-BY-SA data I don't have permission to license (and I probably can't even recall what all of it is). Which'll mean nuking 50% of all the data in Iceland most of which I've touched at some point. I've been away for a while. But it seems to me from reading the terms that I can't say yes to them in good faith, not because I don't want to, but because I remember I derived a few things from external CC-BY-SA, and I can't now recall what they were (and this was before we had changeset comments). What are my options in that situation? Do I either have to see all my work removed because I can't account for 100% of my edits or lie on the ODbL acceptance form? I am afraid that the only honest position you can take is to not agree to the CT's. However, we don't yet know whether this will mean all your work will be removed, because we don't yet know what will happen to the contributions of those users who have not agreed to the CT's Regards David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
Exactly my own situation, except following poor advice I accepted the new CT. Apparently it is not possible to change the CT status and my formal request to have my suspect data deleted seems to have been ignored. My recommendation is not to accept the CT, and reenter those items that you did from direct observation under a new account. Cheerio John On 15 June 2011 19:06, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: Back in 2006 I wrote the following when it still wasn't clear what the ODbL acceptance terms would be like: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 22:10, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: If someone presents me with a boolean Do you allow relicensing under the ODbL I'll have to say no because some of my edits are derived from CC-BY-SA data I don't have permission to license (and I probably can't even recall what all of it is). Which'll mean nuking 50% of all the data in Iceland most of which I've touched at some point. I've been away for a while. But it seems to me from reading the terms that I can't say yes to them in good faith, not because I don't want to, but because I remember I derived a few things from external CC-BY-SA, and I can't now recall what they were (and this was before we had changeset comments). What are my options in that situation? Do I either have to see all my work removed because I can't account for 100% of my edits or lie on the ODbL acceptance form? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can I say yes to the ODbL if I can't account for 100% of my data?
If only there were a way to indicate the *source* of a given object... This is obviously hindsight and doesn't help at this point in your situation but seriously... The source=* tag: use it. Toby On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 7:48 PM, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly my own situation, except following poor advice I accepted the new CT. Apparently it is not possible to change the CT status and my formal request to have my suspect data deleted seems to have been ignored. My recommendation is not to accept the CT, and reenter those items that you did from direct observation under a new account. Cheerio John On 15 June 2011 19:06, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: Back in 2006 I wrote the following when it still wasn't clear what the ODbL acceptance terms would be like: On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 22:10, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason ava...@gmail.com wrote: If someone presents me with a boolean Do you allow relicensing under the ODbL I'll have to say no because some of my edits are derived from CC-BY-SA data I don't have permission to license (and I probably can't even recall what all of it is). Which'll mean nuking 50% of all the data in Iceland most of which I've touched at some point. I've been away for a while. But it seems to me from reading the terms that I can't say yes to them in good faith, not because I don't want to, but because I remember I derived a few things from external CC-BY-SA, and I can't now recall what they were (and this was before we had changeset comments). What are my options in that situation? Do I either have to see all my work removed because I can't account for 100% of my edits or lie on the ODbL acceptance form? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
