Re: [OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam
On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 5:00 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer > Huh? IMHO we DO want to have every single registered / physically existing > business in OSM, and I couldn't see why not? I think the criterion has to be "physically", not "registered". Many business are registred but don't exist physically excepted on a named postbox. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam
On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 8:22 AM, Pieren wrote: > I think the criterion has to be "physically", not "registered". Many > business are registred but don't exist physically excepted on a named > postbox. > Physical fits better. There are many unregistered businesses that have physical presence. And if it just takes being a registered business, there won't be enough space to add all the "registered" businesses in the Cayman Islands. -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam
2013/12/4 Steve Bennett > There's no way OSM really wants to be a database of every single > registered (or even unregistered!) business, surely? Huh? IMHO we DO want to have every single registered / physically existing business in OSM, and I couldn't see why not? They will have an adress for instance, they will potentially care to keep the address current, ... How would you make the distinction of what should be there and what not? An insurance company yes, but a SEO office not? If we start to bring in relevance criteria for actually existing stuff than it will also have side effects (some mappers will go away like they have in certain local wikipedias, because they feel their contributions aren't wanted). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam
On 17:53 2013-12-03, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: besides the bitcoin tag there is a name, a website, a phone number and a human readable note. Clicking on the website you'll also get an adress (housenumber). On 19:06 2013-12-03, Steve Bennett wrote: There's no way OSM really wants to be a database of every single registered (or even unregistered!) business, surely? But what the unregistered business' POI has an address? How would that be worse than a new user tagging their house with `addr:housenumber=123` but not `building=house`? -- m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam
On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > There are many businesses where you can't go and buy something, but still > they should be in OSM. Think of a car manufacturer, you can't go there and > buy a car. > Yeah but the difference is a manufacturing plant has a big physical presence that is worth indicating on a map. A person can see it, wonder what it is, and look at the map. And, more pragmatically, factories don't come and go as quickly as businesses run on residential premises. There's no way OSM really wants to be a database of every single registered (or even unregistered!) business, surely? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam
2013/12/4 Frederik Ramm > I'm wary of such POIs where the location may be correct but of no > interest. If they are a mail-order firm or a spiritual movement and > place a POI at their registered address for the sole purpose of getting > their name and telephone number and Facebook URL and Google+ URL and > E-Mail and web site into some kind of dictionary, but if you went to the > actual location you'd not be able to conduct any business or even find > more than a mailbox, then I'd say they shouldn't have a place in OSM. > > I agree it's a grey area - there might be a "restaurant" that *only* > does delivery and if you go there you can't buy anything. > There are many businesses where you can't go and buy something, but still they should be in OSM. Think of a car manufacturer, you can't go there and buy a car. Or stuff like this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/235518330 I agree with Jaakko, if there is an office or it is their official address, this is not "spam". Yes, the information is not complete and not as detailed and structured as an experienced mapper would enter it, but have a look at your second example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2523904649 http://www.noospherecomputers.com"/> besides the bitcoin tag there is a name, a website, a phone number and a human readable note. Clicking on the website you'll also get an adress (housenumber). Still, knowing > the restaurant is next door might be an interesting information for you > if you want food delivered hot. But why should our geo-database have the > location of a desk from which someone coordinates food deliveries for > people who order something on his web page, a location that is > completely irrelevant to the business conducted and just serves as an > anchor point for storing addresses and contact information? > it is not completely irrelevant for a geographic database to see where businesses are located, even if they do not serve as POIs to navigate to. > > > Anyways. I think that having more people contribute - including people > > whose main (primary) interest is to add only their business is good > > Reason I was concerned in this case is that I had the impression that > what these people saw as "adding their business to Coinmap" was not > really the same as what we see as "adding a business to OpenStreetMap", > but piggy-backed process wise. > I hope with the time they will find out that putting more detailed structured information will increase their visibility. One reason for not setting a detailed shop or office value might also be that often we don't have something fitting at hand. E.g. there are currently some poor 22 shop=computer_repair in the osm globe. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam
Gotcha. I think we're taking mostly about same things... If there's no office or shop (or a warehouse or something tangible, PO box not being enough) there's no space for our in OSM db. I may have over reacted partly because I've both heard of and dealt with a number of people who have found it difficult to add their business location to OSM-talk. And the entries that they've added have often been less or often more crappy - just like the entries of so many new n00bs'. It's also good to remember that business names sometimes do contain what seems to be classifying info (Hotel Astoria, Sydney's Opera house, Catedral de Managua, etc). In any case, perhaps I'm just wanting to ask that we try to assume good faith as much as possible. Our learning curve exists and is doing well, so to say. So, let's try not to scare away new contributors / projects that are driving new contributors. Cheers from undermapped Nicaragua where Foursquare has thus far clearly been much more successful in getting POIs mapped (with decent accuracy) than OSM (because of a range of things of course), -Jaakko -- Sent from my Android device. On Dec 3, 2013 7:02 PM, "Frederik Ramm" wrote: > Hi, > > On 03.12.2013 23:50, Jaakko Helleranta.com wrote: > > And perhaps we should have better documentation / > > stated policy on adjectives / tone of the description tag? > > Clearly anything in there must be verifiable on the ground. "20 years of > experience" or "satisfaction guaranteed" are hardly ;) > > > I would only consider it spam if it doesn't actually exist in reality or > > perhaps if it is grossly misplaced (to the extent that it is clear that > > no one even tried to place it right. > > I'm wary of such POIs where the location may be correct but of no > interest. If they are a mail-order firm or a spiritual movement and > place a POI at their registered address for the sole purpose of getting > their name and telephone number and Facebook URL and Google+ URL and > E-Mail and web site into some kind of dictionary, but if you went to the > actual location you'd not be able to conduct any business or even find > more than a mailbox, then I'd say they shouldn't have a place in OSM. > > I agree it's a grey area - there might be a "restaurant" that *only* > does delivery and if you go there you can't buy anything. Still, knowing > the restaurant is next door might be an interesting information for you > if you want food delivered hot. But why should our geo-database have the > location of a desk from which someone coordinates food deliveries for > people who order something on his web page, a location that is > completely irrelevant to the business conducted and just serves as an > anchor point for storing addresses and contact information? > > > Anyways. I think that having more people contribute - including people > > whose main (primary) interest is to add only their business is good > > Reason I was concerned in this case is that I had the impression that > what these people saw as "adding their business to Coinmap" was not > really the same as what we see as "adding a business to OpenStreetMap", > but piggy-backed process wise. > > Bye > Frederik > > -- > Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam
Hi, On 03.12.2013 23:50, Jaakko Helleranta.com wrote: > And perhaps we should have better documentation / > stated policy on adjectives / tone of the description tag? Clearly anything in there must be verifiable on the ground. "20 years of experience" or "satisfaction guaranteed" are hardly ;) > I would only consider it spam if it doesn't actually exist in reality or > perhaps if it is grossly misplaced (to the extent that it is clear that > no one even tried to place it right. I'm wary of such POIs where the location may be correct but of no interest. If they are a mail-order firm or a spiritual movement and place a POI at their registered address for the sole purpose of getting their name and telephone number and Facebook URL and Google+ URL and E-Mail and web site into some kind of dictionary, but if you went to the actual location you'd not be able to conduct any business or even find more than a mailbox, then I'd say they shouldn't have a place in OSM. I agree it's a grey area - there might be a "restaurant" that *only* does delivery and if you go there you can't buy anything. Still, knowing the restaurant is next door might be an interesting information for you if you want food delivered hot. But why should our geo-database have the location of a desk from which someone coordinates food deliveries for people who order something on his web page, a location that is completely irrelevant to the business conducted and just serves as an anchor point for storing addresses and contact information? > Anyways. I think that having more people contribute - including people > whose main (primary) interest is to add only their business is good Reason I was concerned in this case is that I had the impression that what these people saw as "adding their business to Coinmap" was not really the same as what we see as "adding a business to OpenStreetMap", but piggy-backed process wise. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Long tail challenges - was: Re: Bitcoin Spam
Hi Fred and others interested, I respectfully disagree that the disagree example items would be (blatant) spam. They are clearly all missing what I call a "primary (classifying) tag" (shop=* or office=* most likely for all referenced). And there are some tagging mistakes too on existing tags. Like using note for what seems to be more a description (which is possibly a problem of the coin map documentation?). And perhaps we should have better documentation / stated policy on adjectives / tone of the description tag? These hold true. But spam? I don't think so. As for mail (/Internet) order shops I'd think that eg office=mail(/internet)_order_store would always be good - - for their physical office, that is. I would only consider it spam if it doesn't actually exist in reality or perhaps if it is grossly misplaced (to the extent that it is clear that no one even tried to place it right. Overall, I think this is probably more an issue of how we should handle a growing "low end" of a long tail in OSM contributions. There is no reason that we could and should not see this as a positive problem /challenge. Perhaps it could be possible to have a MapRoulette challenge for verifying all lone nodes + only_name_no_main_tag-objects from contributors that have only a few change sets in their edit history? (under 10-50?) Some tools for verifying n00bs' change sets would be great in general (and I still have no clue of coding so I'm useless for actually developing them). This issue also links to previously (from time to time) discussed topic of how to curate beginners' edits, even have some sort of review system for beginners' / other selected users' edits. Anyways. I think that having more people contribute - including people whose main (primary) interest is to add only their business is good (when not done in bad faith, which doesn't seem to be the case in your examples). We just need to figure out how to provide targeted support, quite possibly better targeted documentation (in this case probably coin map's job) and how to curate in a targeted manner. Cheers, -Jaakko -- Sent from my Android device. On Dec 3, 2013 5:11 PM, "Frederik Ramm" wrote: > Hi, > >we're seeing a rising number of new ways and nodes which seem to be > added by people who create an account for just one purpose, namely > adding a business to the map. > > This could be great - if every business were to add themselves to the > map, we'd have a nice collection of POIs. > > However, in the case at hand, it seems that the interest is not to > improve OSM but instead we're just a vehicle for people to show up on > the "coinmap", a business directory for bitcoin-accepting businesses. > > It seems that a name and "payment:bitcoin=yes" is sufficient for that > site, with an optional advertising slug in the "note" tag. But for us, > not so much. First of all because advertising has no room in OSM; second > because many of these businesses seem to be not really "on the ground" > (but just a mail-order place that wants to have some marker somewhere), > third because they often don't contain even minimal information that > would make them useful to us. I've collected these objects created in > the past couple of days here > > http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/bitcoin.osc > > A few examples: > > uid="1795331" user="The Tobacco Seed Company" changeset="18716456" > lat="51.5442768" lon="0.7236584"> > > > http://www.tobaccoseed.co.uk"/> > > > This is blatant advertising for a web site. It doesn't even say what > kind of shop this is supposed to be. > > uid="1798995" user="mkondratov" changeset="18776505" lat="41.4183069" > lon="-81.694649"> > > > > > http://www.noospherecomputers.com"/> > > > This, too, is little more than a name on our map. We don't usually > include the field of business in the name - this should have been > expressed through a proper "shop" tag. > > uid="1801179" user="79s VOF" changeset="18818705" lat="52.372218" > lon="4.8653634"> > > > https://store.79s.co"/> > > > Spam. > > uid="1809524" user="webhostpl" changeset="18964238" lat="50.0727563" > lon="19.8938861"> > > > > > > http://www.webhost.pl"/> > > > Broken tagging (quite frequent). > > uid="1651798" user="oldenburg69" changeset="18998877" lat="36.2026532" > lon="-115.0597195"> > > > > > > > > http://www.hannigfabworks.com/"/> > > > Tagging is ok as far as the address node is concerned, but without a > shop tag the rest is kind of useless, and the "note" tag is not for your > marketing tagline. > > uid="1817212" user="l337 PLace" changeset="19091714" lat="60.1491622" > lon="24.6551426"> > > > > > > > > > > http://www.1337place.com"/> > > > Whatever BeagleBone Black is, this hou
