Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Simon Poole]

Christian

I fully agree, but we do have enough tools at our disposal to tag
multiple local names in various forms. And while there is always some
dispute in how to do it exactly in multi-lingual areas the principle of
recording these names is well supported. 

The one doubtful name in the case of where I live is the gsw name, which
is problematic as there is no agreed on written version of gsw (which
would be difficult to start with because it is just a loose family of
alemannic dialects) so the name clearly exists, there is just no way to
write it outside of fudging it. 

Simon

Am 01.07.2018 um 17:17 schrieb Christian Rogel:
>
>
>> Le 30 juin 2018 à 11:56, Simon Poole > > a écrit :
>>
>> As already has been pointed out nobody is even remotely proposing to
>> limit adding actual real names, quite the contrary.
>>
>> It just needs to be understood that most places and objects don't
>> actually have names in more than one language or transliterations
>> that are special (aka not machine generated). As already pointed out 
>> take the name of the place which I happen to live in,  WD has 26 name
>> entries of which 24 are rubbish and 1 doubtful, the most likely
>> generated from the WP page urls (and a number of those pages are bot
>> generated). A classic example of GIGO.
>>
>> Simon
>>
> As it has been pointed that placenames (and odonyms too) should be
> « the real names as they are in use », ones have to keep in mind how
> the question could be a very intricate one :
>
>   * some official names are not used at every moment
>   * some official names were translated under linguistic imperialism,
> so a mere translation can have a form of legitimity
>   * different names could be in use according to the groups or the age
>   * many local authorities move toward new names restituted, either
> officialy, either as parallel form
>
>
> Moreover, you can’t declare that a type of spelling must have a
> defined territory and adaptations are in use in neighbouring
> linguistic territories.
> In fact, for a determined ISO 639 code, you have to rely on the wisdom
> of the community involved with, not on definitively vague OSM rules or
> external look who has no capacity to search if the adapted name was
> found in oral or written sources or merely « restituted » by a
> contributor or a group.
>
> For name restitution or reconstruction, the supporters of putting the
> breton language recommend source:code ISO = proper translation.
> Very useful for knowing why the name was put and, in some case, this
> name or an other version will be found eventually in an official
> register and could have a more established source.
>
>
> Christian Rogel
> OpenStreetMap e brezhoneg
> openstreetmap.bzh (breton/french)
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Stefan Keller]

Hi,

I would like to refer to Yves (yvecai)'s suggestion below once again:

Yes, the OSM Wiki page about Names says something about avoiding
transliteration (though currently only the wiki page in English).

But: In fact, it has a section on "Localization", which clearly
implies the usage of transliterations!
And it does say nothing to avoid pure translations
And it does not refer to WD and the WD-ID tag as a possible solution
for "international names" (exonyms)!

So, it's seems really time to update the OSM Wiki page on Names
including all translations...

Regarding the original blog post from Joe Matazzoni's Wikimedia
Foundation on "Interactive maps, now in your language", I added a
comment, asking him to update his post along following lines:

> "When the results are unsatisfactory..."

* "Add the missing names to Wikidata (not OSM) in your language".
* (... Remaining 2 bullets seem to target Wikidata anyway)
* "Add the name to OSM only after having understood how to do this:
See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names e.g. avoid pure
translations (exonyms) and avoid transliterations.
* "Adding Wikidata-ID to OSM is acceptable."

:Stefan


2018-06-30 7:37 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> On 30/06/18 15:08, Yves wrote:
>>
>> While there is a lot of things said here in this thread, I notice that:
>> 1 there is very little advice in the article on how to enter names in OSM.
>> 2 there no comment on the blog that would give advice on how to enter
>> names in OSM.
>>
>> It would be the right time if OSM people would take the time to synthetise
>> to WMF contributors what names are acceptable in OSM.
>> Do we have a good wiki page on the matter?
>
>
> A lot of detail on about the name tag itself
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names
>
> As for a specific beginers guide as to how to add a name to an OSM feature..
> ?
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Christian Rogel]

> Le 30 juin 2018 à 11:56, Simon Poole  a écrit :
> 
> As already has been pointed out nobody is even remotely proposing to limit 
> adding actual real names, quite the contrary. 
> It just needs to be understood that most places and objects don't actually 
> have names in more than one language or transliterations that are special 
> (aka not machine generated). As already pointed out  take the name of the 
> place which I happen to live in,  WD has 26 name entries of which 24 are 
> rubbish and 1 doubtful, the most likely generated from the WP page urls (and 
> a number of those pages are bot generated). A classic example of GIGO.
> 
> Simon
> 
As it has been pointed that placenames (and odonyms too) should be « the real 
names as they are in use », ones have to keep in mind how the question could be 
a very intricate one :
some official names are not used at every moment
some official names were translated under linguistic imperialism, so a mere 
translation can have a form of legitimity
different names could be in use according to the groups or the age
many local authorities move toward new names restituted, either officialy, 
either as parallel form

Moreover, you can’t declare that a type of spelling must have a defined 
territory and adaptations are in use in neighbouring linguistic territories.
In fact, for a determined ISO 639 code, you have to rely on the wisdom of the 
community involved with, not on definitively vague OSM rules or external look 
who has no capacity to search if the adapted name was found in oral or written 
sources or merely « restituted » by a contributor or a group.

For name restitution or reconstruction, the supporters of putting the breton 
language recommend source:code ISO = proper translation.
Very useful for knowing why the name was put and, in some case, this name or an 
other version will be found eventually in an official register and could have a 
more established source.


Christian Rogel
OpenStreetMap e brezhoneg
openstreetmap.bzh (breton/french)

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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Simon Poole]

As already has been pointed out nobody is even remotely proposing to
limit adding actual real names, quite the contrary.

It just needs to be understood that most places and objects don't
actually have names in more than one language or transliterations that
are special (aka not machine generated). As already pointed out  take
the name of the place which I happen to live in,  WD has 26 name entries
of which 24 are rubbish and 1 doubtful, the most likely generated from
the WP page urls (and a number of those pages are bot generated). A
classic example of GIGO.

Simon


Am 30.06.2018 um 10:32 schrieb Andrew Hain:
> One of OSM’s strengths is, or should be, that we are a truly worldwide
> map. Multilingual names are part of this. Excluding actual names from
> the map database as “ought not” is no different from omitting casinos
> in a stand against gambling or leaving the road number of the high
> street in your town off the map.
>
> It is unfortunate that a few people have sought to limit the
> contribution of names by our mappers.
>
> --
> Andrew
> 
> *From:* Andy Mabbett 
> *Sent:* 29 June 2018 12:21:06
> *To:* OSM talk mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"
>  
> On 29 June 2018 at 11:57, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
> >> On 29.06.2018 12:18, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
> >>> New Wikimedia Foundation blog post:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> https://blog.wikimedia.org/2018/06/28/interactive-maps-now-in-your-language/
>
> > they should not be calling for their users to vandalize OSM.
>
> Nor are they.
>
> I expected some negativity in response to this remarkable good news;
> but this hyperbolic response is beyond acceptable.
>
> -- 
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 30. Jun 2018, at 10:32, Andrew Hain  wrote:
> 
> It is unfortunate that a few people have sought to limit the contribution of 
> names by our mappers.


As I understood the discussion, nobody wants to limit the contribution of 
names, the concerns regard entering translations and transliterations as names, 
or mapping from sources with supposed copyright issues.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Andrew Hain]

One of OSM’s strengths is, or should be, that we are a truly worldwide map. 
Multilingual names are part of this. Excluding actual names from the map 
database as “ought not” is no different from omitting casinos in a stand 
against gambling or leaving the road number of the high street in your town off 
the map.

It is unfortunate that a few people have sought to limit the contribution of 
names by our mappers.

--
Andrew

From: Andy Mabbett 
Sent: 29 June 2018 12:21:06
To: OSM talk mailing list
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

On 29 June 2018 at 11:57, Simon Poole  wrote:

>> On 29.06.2018 12:18, Andy Mabbett wrote:

>>> New Wikimedia Foundation blog post:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://blog.wikimedia.org/2018/06/28/interactive-maps-now-in-your-language/

> they should not be calling for their users to vandalize OSM.

Nor are they.

I expected some negativity in response to this remarkable good news;
but this hyperbolic response is beyond acceptable.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Warin]

On 30/06/18 15:08, Yves wrote:

While there is a lot of things said here in this thread, I notice that:
1 there is very little advice in the article on how to enter names in 
OSM.
2 there no comment on the blog that would give advice on how to enter 
names in OSM.


It would be the right time if OSM people would take the time to 
synthetise to WMF contributors what names are acceptable in OSM.

Do we have a good wiki page on the matter?


A lot of detail on about the name tag itself 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names


As for a specific beginers guide as to how to add a name to an OSM 
feature.. ?


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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Johnparis]

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names

I would especially encourage you to read the entire section "Avoid
transliteration", which also discusses translation issues.

On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 7:08 AM, Yves  wrote:

> While there is a lot of things said here in this thread, I notice that:
> 1 there is very little advice in the article on how to enter names in OSM.
> 2 there no comment on the blog that would give advice on how to enter
> names in OSM.
>
> It would be the right time if OSM people would take the time to synthetise
> to WMF contributors what names are acceptable in OSM.
> Do we have a good wiki page on the matter?
> Yves
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Yves]

While there is a lot of things said here in this thread, I notice that:
1 there is very little advice in the article on how to enter names in OSM. 
2 there no comment on the blog that would give advice on how to enter names in 
OSM. 

It would be the right time if OSM people would take the time to synthetise to 
WMF contributors what names are acceptable in OSM.
Do we have a good wiki page on the matter?
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Yuri Astrakhan]

* The BIG part of the announcement is that OSM data is now being used to
create truly multilingual map with a very large exposure.  I hope some
people here are not saying that such project should not have been built? If
you want to help, see at the end.
* I do not think names should be simply copied from WD into OSM - for many
of the reasons mentioned above, plus I am not a fan of duplicate data being
out of sync.
* I do believe Kartotherian (map service used by WMF) should use Wikidata
to augment names when missing in OSM.
* The fundamental problem is that WMF refuses to do any additional maps
work. Basically there was a star tech team put together for a few months to
address overwhelming community demand for better maps, rather than spending
resources on projects that community has very little interest in.  The team
delivered some of the hot-button things, but it was dissolved to work on
other things. In other words - things that are in high demand by community
are only worked on for a short time by a small team, and then forgotten by
WMF.  "sad."
* Naming is not a local expertise. Someone in Russia would know the Russian
name for New York better than someone who actually lives in New York, but
doesn't speak the language. That said, I would think at least some
languages have a relatively well defined algorithm to transliterate foreign
names?  And only if auto-transliteration fails, or if there is an
alternative well established spelling, it should be entered into OSM/WD.
Just thinking out loud here.
* I really hope this conversation can be productive, and oriented towards
solving issues, and not an unproductive and emotional blame game. I have
helped with the maps translation project, and while I can only speak about
the engineers I spoke with, everyone there made the best efforts to bring
first truly multilingual maps to the world. Of course not all the names
data is there, and there are multiple ways to fix that. So rather than
throwing 💩 at each other, I do hope some volunteers would step up to 1)
guide WP community on improving name situation, and best approaches
according to OSM rules, 2) help with the development effort since WMF is
not interested, 3) help organize it all.  I could try to help with (2),
send me an email if interested.

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 1:24 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

>
> 29. Jun 2018 13:18 by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:
>
> On 29 June 2018 at 11:38, Max  wrote:
>
> "Add the missing names to OSM in your language."
>
> That is inflating the OSM database with something that Wikidata has solved
> already in a much better way. Why would someone from wikimedia recommend to
> create a less mentainable version of their database?
>
>
> Because the OSM community refuses to allow the import of data from
> Wikidata.
>
>
> Because WIkidata data is license-incompatible with OSM.
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Mateusz Konieczny]

29. Jun 2018 13:18 by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk 
:


> On 29 June 2018 at 11:38, Max <> abonneme...@revolwear.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>> "Add the missing names to OSM in your language."
>>
>> That is inflating the OSM database with something that Wikidata has solved
>> already in a much better way. Why would someone from wikimedia recommend to
>> create a less mentainable version of their database?
>
> Because the OSM community refuses to allow the import of data from Wikidata.



Because WIkidata data is license-incompatible with OSM.
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 29.06.2018 o 14:03, Christoph Hormann pisze:
> * adding non-verifiable name translations (verifiability being 
> understood according to OSM principles, not those of Wikipedia) to OSM 

With translations "on the ground rule" is not working in most of the cases.

There are different sources, for example common name use in papers and
(for example in Poland) special naming commission (see
http://ksng.gugik.gov.pl/english/index.php ), which decisions are being
published as official law, but that is exactly Wikipedia way and I don't
see anything better here.

-- 
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]



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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Johnparis]

Ha! I was going to cite that as an example. I recently removed precisely
that absurd tag in Paris.

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, 14:06 Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 29.06.2018 13:44, Simon Poole wrote (quoting Wikimedia):
> > Add the missing names to OSM in your language.
>
> I think that this simply means we need much better name QA in the
> future, and must not be afraid to remove names that don't belong there.
> Until now we've practically let every language enthusiast add their
> names to places far and wide without asking for sources; in the future
> we should ask for verifiable sources.
>
> We're ready to accept a local person's authority about local features;
> but that doesn't mean that I as a speaker of German should necessarily
> have the (un-questioned) authority to assign German names to places on
> the other side of the planet.
>
> I expect that a close look at international place names from this point
> of view will probably enable us to get rid of quiet a few "Pont Neuf=New
> Bridge" type names.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Andy Mabbett]

On 29 June 2018 at 12:44, Simon Poole  wrote:

>>> they should not be calling for their users to vandalize OSM.

>> Nor are they.

>> I expected some negativity in response to this remarkable good news;
>> but this hyperbolic response is beyond acceptable.
>
> So you are denying that they are asking their users to add names to OSM so
> that their application looks better?

Everyone on this mailing list can see for themselves that that is not
what I said.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Paul Norman]

On 2018-06-29 3:38 AM, Max wrote:
That is inflating the OSM database with something that Wikidata has 
solved already in a much better way. Why would someone from wikimedia 
recommend to create a less mentainable version of their database?




Wikidata has 412978 "thoroughfare" items. OSM has 121 million highway 
ways. These don't correspond 1:1 with each other, and it'd be 
interesting to get an exact comparison, but OSM even records more 
distinct street names than Wikidata records total streets. Companies 
like Mapbox have been trying to improve coverage with paid contractors 
filling out spreadsheets of names, but that comes with its own problems, 
and clearly hasn't made Wikidata a substitute for OSM when it comes to 
geographic names.


On a technical level, processing Wikidata data to work with map data is 
harder than processing OSM data, and lacks the standardized practices 
and documentation.


Lastly, when it comes to names in OSM as opposed to translations or 
transliterations, we should want them improved in OSM. This is, after 
all, an OSM mailing list.


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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Stefano]

Il giorno ven 29 giu 2018 alle ore 13:48 Simon Poole  ha
scritto:

> Am 29.06.2018 um 13:21 schrieb Andy Mabbett:
>
> ...
>
> Nor are they.
>
> I expected some negativity in response to this remarkable good news;
> but this hyperbolic response is beyond acceptable.
>
> So you are denying that they are asking their users to add names to OSM so
> that their application looks better?
>

No, because if the fallbacks are correctly set-up there wouldn't be any
need to add a translation to OSM (
https://github.com/kartotherian/babel/blob/master/lib/fallbacks.json )

BTW the wikidata question was already asked by me but it is out of scope
for the short time allocation given to the project
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T112948#4091555

Ciao,
Stefano
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 29.06.2018 13:44, Simon Poole wrote (quoting Wikimedia):
> Add the missing names to OSM in your language.

I think that this simply means we need much better name QA in the
future, and must not be afraid to remove names that don't belong there.
Until now we've practically let every language enthusiast add their
names to places far and wide without asking for sources; in the future
we should ask for verifiable sources.

We're ready to accept a local person's authority about local features;
but that doesn't mean that I as a speaker of German should necessarily
have the (un-questioned) authority to assign German names to places on
the other side of the planet.

I expect that a close look at international place names from this point
of view will probably enable us to get rid of quiet a few "Pont Neuf=New
Bridge" type names.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Christoph Hormann]

On Friday 29 June 2018, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> New Wikimedia Foundation blog post:
>
>   
> https://blog.wikimedia.org/2018/06/28/interactive-maps-now-in-your-la
>nguage/

In the past i have been only slightly annoyed by Wikimedia people 
failing to understand or to accept the idea behind OpenStreetMap 
(mapping the world based on information verifiable on the ground) and 
as a result of that failing the make the right choices for rendering 
maps based on OSM data in different languages - despite compentent 
advise being given from the OSM community on multiple occasions.

But now i am starting to get seriously angry by the demonstrative 
rejection of OSM values and the completely undisguised suggestion to 
abuse the OSM database for the special interests of the WMF.

So to be very clear:

* adding non-verifiable name translations (verifiability being 
understood according to OSM principles, not those of Wikipedia) to OSM 
features from any source against better knowledge or after being asked 
not to is vandalism.  So what the linked to blog post calls for is 
vandalizing OSM since Joe Matazzoni cannot claim he is unaware of this 
(plenty of past discussion here and elsewhere i could point to).

* adding information from Wikidata to OSM is not acceptable - both due 
to quality issues (Wikidata is not subject to the verifiability rules 
of OSM) and due to copyright (the vague claim of CC0 does not in any 
way ensure that the data is free of third party rights).

What really angers me about this is that this kind of abuse of OSM is 
technically completely unnecessary.  You could easily use name data 
from Wikidata in your maps and ask your followers to enter their name 
translations into Wikidata instead of OSM.  To say none of the 
explanations i would have for that behaviour is particularly flattering 
is an understatement.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Simon Poole]

Am 29.06.2018 um 13:21 schrieb Andy Mabbett:
> ...
> Nor are they.
>
> I expected some negativity in response to this remarkable good news;
> but this hyperbolic response is beyond acceptable.
So you are denying that they are asking their users to add names to OSM
so that their application looks better?

When the results are unsatisfactory, there are a few things you can do:

  *

Add the missing names to OSM in your language.

It is simply a fact that most places in the world only have a name in
the relevant local language(s) and that the well known places with
multiple names and potentially special transliterations (that can't be
generated mechanically) are by far the exception

PS: the news isn't actually news it is essentially a rehash of a
previously published blog post, which however had the same issues.








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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Andy Mabbett]

On 29 June 2018 at 11:57, Simon Poole  wrote:

>> On 29.06.2018 12:18, Andy Mabbett wrote:

>>> New Wikimedia Foundation blog post:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://blog.wikimedia.org/2018/06/28/interactive-maps-now-in-your-language/

> they should not be calling for their users to vandalize OSM.

Nor are they.

I expected some negativity in response to this remarkable good news;
but this hyperbolic response is beyond acceptable.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Andy Mabbett]

On 29 June 2018 at 11:38, Max  wrote:

> "Add the missing names to OSM in your language."
>
> That is inflating the OSM database with something that Wikidata has solved
> already in a much better way. Why would someone from wikimedia recommend to
> create a less mentainable version of their database?

Because the OSM community refuses to allow the import of data from Wikidata.

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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Simon Poole]

Not only that.

It confuses "translations" with "names commonly in use for the place in
your language" we only want the later in OSM. If the WMF wants the
former in WD that is their call (the rather small place (3'000 pop)I
live in has name entries in 30 languages, even though there are at most
2 names in actual use and the rest is rubbish), but they should not be
calling for their users to vandalize OSM.

Simon

Am 29.06.2018 um 12:38 schrieb Max:
> "Add the missing names to OSM in your language."
>
> That is inflating the OSM database with something that Wikidata has
> solved already in a much better way. Why would someone from wikimedia
> recommend to create a less mentainable version of their database?
>
>
>
> On 29.06.2018 12:18, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> New Wikimedia Foundation blog post:
>>
>>    
>> https://blog.wikimedia.org/2018/06/28/interactive-maps-now-in-your-language/
>>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Max]

"Add the missing names to OSM in your language."

That is inflating the OSM database with something that Wikidata has 
solved already in a much better way. Why would someone from wikimedia 
recommend to create a less mentainable version of their database?




On 29.06.2018 12:18, Andy Mabbett wrote:

New Wikimedia Foundation blog post:

https://blog.wikimedia.org/2018/06/28/interactive-maps-now-in-your-language/




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[OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Andy Mabbett]

New Wikimedia Foundation blog post:

   https://blog.wikimedia.org/2018/06/28/interactive-maps-now-in-your-language/

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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