[OSM-talk] name:etymology:wikidata
Hi, I like to create bridges between projects, so now I was looking into the name:etymology:wikidata tag. And I have a question about it. Say, you have a Rue de la Chapelle Rue de la Station I'd be inclined to make it point to the specific instance of chapel or station. The other possibility would be to point to the word/concept of chapel/railway station. As far as I'm concerned, both have merit. There could be somebody who wants to get all the roads named after station/chapel across languages. Or there could be somebody who wants to be more specific and who wants to know which streets are named after a specific 'object'. There are also streets named Parkstraat (5km) apart. Named after Park Abbey. So I think it makes sense to refer to Park Abbey and not the concept (city) park in general. Polyglot ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name:etymology:wikidata
That's what is proposed here though: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata And it keeps that particular wikidata tag nicely together with the name when sorted alphabetically. Jo 2015-07-31 17:01 GMT+02:00 Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org: On Fr, Jul 31, 2015 at 04:27:05 +0200, Jo wrote: I like to create bridges between projects, so now I was looking into the name:etymology:wikidata tag. Whatever you do, do not use an abomination like name:etymology:wikidata, because to a computer it looks like it is a name-Tag with the language etymology:wikidata like most of the name:something tags. It is hard enough already to make sense of OSM tags... Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.jochentopf.com/ +49-351-31778688 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name:etymology:wikidata
On 31/07/15 16:09, Jo wrote: That's what is proposed here though: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata And it keeps that particular wikidata tag nicely together with the name when sorted alphabetically. I don't see any point loading our servers down with wikidata content. If you want the data that goes with a 'wikidata=*' entry then simply ask wikidata for it. Same with wikipedia and other data sources. If you want a sorted list get wikidata to provide it ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name:etymology:wikidata
2015-07-31 17:21 GMT+02:00 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk: On 31/07/15 16:09, Jo wrote: That's what is proposed here though: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata And it keeps that particular wikidata tag nicely together with the name when sorted alphabetically. I don't see any point loading our servers down with wikidata content. If you want the data that goes with a 'wikidata=*' entry then simply ask wikidata for it. Same with wikipedia and other data sources. If you want a sorted list get wikidata to provide it ... He means that when you view it in JOSM, where tags are listed alphabetically, they are nicely grouped together. Well-written software should know that anything longer that 3 characters cannot be a language code and should ignore it if it isn't interested. Especially when it has a colon in it. This kind of information is interesting. Please go on Jo :) I'd say make a reference to the actual object is named after, not just to 'church'. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name:etymology:wikidata
2015-07-31 17:31 GMT+02:00 Ruben Maes ru...@janmaes.com: I'd say make a reference to the actual object is named after, not just to 'church'. Although this might not always be clear. There is a street called Church Street near me and it has two churches. Which church is the street named after? Some historical research has to be done there. Perhaps it was named after the two churches, in which case there'd have to be two references? Is there any way to do that apart from the hated semi-colon separated list? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name:etymology:wikidata
sent from a phone Am 31.07.2015 um 17:31 schrieb Ruben Maes ru...@janmaes.com: I'd say make a reference to the actual object is named after, not just to 'church'. +1, if you then want all churches you can ask wikidata which of the tagged specific instances are churches. cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name:etymology:wikidata
On 31/07/15 16:35, Jo wrote: Due to the fact that our ids are not stable, the only reasonable way to add links between wikidata and OSM is to tag objects on our side. I spent some time convincing the people at wikidata about this over a year ago. I had thought it was obvious for OSM contributors. Adding tags to id's in third party data sets is a no brainer. I'm only complaining about THEN copying all that data into OSM. The link itself should be enough, but things like what church a street is named after is a little different ... THAT should have a researched answer if you want a local tag, or you simply read the information in wikidata/wikipedia. 2015-07-31 17:21 GMT+02:00 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk: On 31/07/15 16:09, Jo wrote: That's what is proposed here though: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata And it keeps that particular wikidata tag nicely together with the name when sorted alphabetically. I don't see any point loading our servers down with wikidata content. If you want the data that goes with a 'wikidata=*' entry then simply ask wikidata for it. Same with wikipedia and other data sources. If you want a sorted list get wikidata to provide it ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name:etymology:wikidata
On Fr, Jul 31, 2015 at 04:27:05 +0200, Jo wrote: I like to create bridges between projects, so now I was looking into the name:etymology:wikidata tag. Whatever you do, do not use an abomination like name:etymology:wikidata, because to a computer it looks like it is a name-Tag with the language etymology:wikidata like most of the name:something tags. It is hard enough already to make sense of OSM tags... Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.jochentopf.com/ +49-351-31778688 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name:etymology:wikidata
Due to the fact that our ids are not stable, the only reasonable way to add links between wikidata and OSM is to tag objects on our side. I spent some time convincing the people at wikidata about this over a year ago. I had thought it was obvious for OSM contributors. Polyglot 2015-07-31 17:21 GMT+02:00 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk: On 31/07/15 16:09, Jo wrote: That's what is proposed here though: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata And it keeps that particular wikidata tag nicely together with the name when sorted alphabetically. I don't see any point loading our servers down with wikidata content. If you want the data that goes with a 'wikidata=*' entry then simply ask wikidata for it. Same with wikipedia and other data sources. If you want a sorted list get wikidata to provide it ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name:etymology:wikidata
sent from a phone Am 31.07.2015 um 18:16 schrieb Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk: or you simply read the information in wikidata/wikipedia. given that even the street of the seven churches around here (via delle sette chiese) doesn't have its own WP/Wikidata article yet (although referenced a lot, e.g. here: https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giro_delle_Sette_Chiese ), I don't think we should assume that every street will get its wikidata entry. cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name:etymology:wikidata
Since all the streets of The Netherlands already made their way into wikidata, I think it's reasonable to add other streets as well and indeed it's possible/desirable to say in wikidata what was named after something else. Wikidata is not Wikipedia, which indeed suffers from the problem that what I'm inclined to add there gets deleted for all sorts of reasons. It can go into wikidata though. What I'm wondering about though, is how to retrieve the data once again. At the moment I added name:etymology:wikidata tags to all the streets referring back to Leuven (a town in Belgium), making sure to add the proper tags for people with Leuven/Louvain in their name. At this point it's easy to create an Overpass API query to find all these streets once again in a convenient way, which I then added to the wikipedia pages about Leuven: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuven#External_links I have no idea how to go about this when the querying needs to be performed in wikidata itself, then transfered to an Overpass query to fetch the actual streets. That said, I see your point about adding source references for the original research. Jo 2015-07-31 19:31 GMT+02:00 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk: On 31/07/15 17:47, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: or you simply read the information in wikidata/wikipedia. given that even the street of the seven churches around here (via delle sette chiese) doesn't have its own WP/Wikidata article yet (although referenced a lot, e.g. here: https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giro_delle_Sette_Chiese ), I don't think we should assume that every street will get its wikidata entry. Original research needs to be stored somewhere. I have something of an aversion to wikipedia simply because work we did a few years back kept being deleted as 'not noteworthy' or simply 'rejected'. OSM is not the place to document this sort of research, that is the sort of material that SHOULD be in wikipedia and cross referenced by wikidata especially where the sources need to be identified. There needs to be proper cooperation and it easier now to create the missing pages in wikipedia, which can then be linked to OSM. Keep each project to what it is good at and sort out procedures that direct information to the right boxes. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name:etymology:wikidata
On Fri, Jul 31, 2015 at 05:31:48PM +0200, Ruben Maes wrote: 2015-07-31 17:21 GMT+02:00 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk: On 31/07/15 16:09, Jo wrote: That's what is proposed here though: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata And it keeps that particular wikidata tag nicely together with the name when sorted alphabetically. I don't see any point loading our servers down with wikidata content. If you want the data that goes with a 'wikidata=*' entry then simply ask wikidata for it. Same with wikipedia and other data sources. If you want a sorted list get wikidata to provide it ... He means that when you view it in JOSM, where tags are listed alphabetically, they are nicely grouped together. Well-written software should know that anything longer that 3 characters cannot be a language code and should ignore it if it isn't interested. Especially when it has a colon in it. If only it was that easy. Just a few examples from the name tags most used: name:ko_rm name:ja_rm name:sr-Latn name:right name:left The rule that name:* is some form of name for the object at hand has worked reasoably well so far for software like search engines that somehow try to capture all names. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] name:etymology:wikidata
On 31/07/15 17:47, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: or you simply read the information in wikidata/wikipedia. given that even the street of the seven churches around here (via delle sette chiese) doesn't have its own WP/Wikidata article yet (although referenced a lot, e.g. here: https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giro_delle_Sette_Chiese ), I don't think we should assume that every street will get its wikidata entry. Original research needs to be stored somewhere. I have something of an aversion to wikipedia simply because work we did a few years back kept being deleted as 'not noteworthy' or simply 'rejected'. OSM is not the place to document this sort of research, that is the sort of material that SHOULD be in wikipedia and cross referenced by wikidata especially where the sources need to be identified. There needs to be proper cooperation and it easier now to create the missing pages in wikipedia, which can then be linked to OSM. Keep each project to what it is good at and sort out procedures that direct information to the right boxes. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
