Re: [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Holger Jeromin]

Aun Johnsen  Wrote
 in message:
> I see a lot of usage of the generic tag highway=road, which is meant as a 
> temporary tag and a ?low level entry tag? for beginners. The problem with 
> this is that because of its ambiguous meaning, it is impossible for data 
> consumers to process this correctly. 
> 
> i.e., highway=road means anything between a small footway to motorway, so a 
> routing engine might wrongfully send cars down a set of steps or a hiker up a 
> motorway
> 
> As described on the proposal page, this tag is meant to be temporary until 
> more data can be obtained from survey.
> 
> I have now had a few rounds of cleanup of the usage of this tag in Brazil. My 
> cleanup run last year found highway=road that had been unedited for 3 years, 
> so hardly temporary. This year I found several highway=road added by armchair 
> mappers from Europe, and I doubt they ever will travel to the remote areas of 
> Brazil to correct this.
> 
(...) 
> In my opinion, a warning about its temporary state and non-capability with 
> data consumers should be added to the wiki, and it should be removed from the 
> standard presets of all the common editors. Also editors with validation 
> functions should give a warning about the existence of this temporary tag so 
> that it can be dealt with properly by people editing in the areas, and 
> further QA tools should highlight them as items needing attention.
>   
> 

Sadly this issue was closed 

https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2742

-- 
Holger


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Re: [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Aun Johnsen]

> On Sep 27, 2016, at 14:24, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 8:42 PM, Aun Johnsen  > wrote:
> i.e., highway=road means anything between a small footway to motorway, so a 
> routing engine might wrongfully send cars down a set of steps or a hiker up a 
> motorway
> 
> Seems like an actual temporary road tag, not a tag that which is temporary, 
> but a road itself that is temporary, to get around a permanent road that's 
> under long-term construction, would be useful.

The use of highway=road would not be an issue if people used it to mark off an 
area where they are going to do survey or gather more information. It becomes 
an issue when people use it to map an entire town, and check it off as 
completed. During my cleanup rush I have seen examples of this where the roads 
haven’t been further edited for 10 months. The result is that the town 
continues to remain unmapped for data consumers, i.e., my downloaded Garmin 
maps will still not route to the town, but looking at Mapnik hows it has been 
mapped.

iD, JOSM, and other editors should warn about this situation, and validating 
tools such as KeepRight and Maproulette should highlight it as incomplete, so 
that they doesn’t remain as highway=road for extended time.

Besides it should not take the mapper much effort to identify what highway=* 
tag is appropriate, to eliminate the need to return to the area.

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Re: [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 8:42 PM, Aun Johnsen  wrote:

> i.e., highway=road means anything between a small footway to motorway, so
> a routing engine might wrongfully send cars down a set of steps or a hiker
> up a motorway
>

Seems like an actual temporary road tag, not a tag that which is temporary,
but a road itself that is temporary, to get around a permanent road that's
under long-term construction, would be useful.
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Re: [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Warin]

On 27-Sep-16 05:44 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

Il giorno 27 set 2016, alle ore 08:07, Simon Poole > ha scritto:



Use of it, IMHO, doesn't really make sense at all any more, particularly
if you have imagery available, a conservative best guess plus a fixme
tag would seem to be much more useful.



I tend to agree, but would limit this to areas where you know more or 
less the context (regions where you have been on the ground).


When mapping far from any place you have been to, it seems more 
sustainable to not infer tags related to aerial imagery and your own 
context, which might have little to do with the actual situation on 
the ground. Adding suppositions coupled with fixme tags is not what we 
generally recommend, and will only work in areas with good coverage of 
active contributors on the ground.


Better less but reliable data, than more but with a significant amount 
of serious errors.




A 'conservative best guess' would normal place the type of highway at a 
lesser level (lower capability) than what it could actually be.
Any error that has a lesser level (lower capability) would not be 
'serious' in a safety aspect.
Additional clues can be had from existing tagging of similar features in 
the area. In this way the result will be consistent and can be readily 
interpreted by the user.


Most people when faced with things outside their range of knowledge will 
take a very conservative approach to assessing capabilities.


-

suppositions: a belief held without proof or certain knowledge; an 
assumption or hypothesis.


As the assessment would be made with an image .. and that image can be 
taken as proof the use of the word 'suppositions' is incorrect.


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Re: [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 27 set 2016, alle ore 08:07, Simon Poole  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Use of it, IMHO, doesn't really make sense at all any more, particularly
> if you have imagery available, a conservative best guess plus a fixme
> tag would seem to be much more useful. 


I tend to agree, but would limit this to areas where you know more or less the 
context (regions where you have been on the ground).

When mapping far from any place you have been to, it seems more sustainable to 
not infer tags related to aerial imagery and your own context, which might have 
little to do with the actual situation on the ground. Adding suppositions 
coupled with fixme tags is not what we generally recommend, and will only work 
in areas with good coverage of active contributors on the ground.

Better less but reliable data, than more but with a significant amount of 
serious errors.

cheers,
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Re: [OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Simon Poole]

Aun

The use of highway=road goes back to before we had access to aerial
imagery. Often you would simply have a raw GPX track without any further
meta-data and you might simply wanted to indicate that there might be
something there for later survey and there was neither the amount of
correct road data nor the tools we have available at this point in time.

Use of it, IMHO, doesn't really make sense at all any more, particularly
if you have imagery available, a conservative best guess plus a fixme
tag would seem to be much more useful. We shouldn't forget that way back
we were limited by the speed at which we could add geometry, these days
it's, even with humans doing it :-), the fast bit of adding data to OSM
and it rarely makes sense to do so in advance if there is no way to
infer at least basic meta data or you are doing it immediately before a
survey. 

QA tools and editors already tend to report/highlight such ways (iD
perhaps not), finding them shouldn't be an issue.

Simon


Am 27.09.2016 um 03:42 schrieb Aun Johnsen:
> I see a lot of usage of the generic tag highway=road, which is meant as a 
> temporary tag and a “low level entry tag” for beginners. The problem with 
> this is that because of its ambiguous meaning, it is impossible for data 
> consumers to process this correctly. 
>
> i.e., highway=road means anything between a small footway to motorway, so a 
> routing engine might wrongfully send cars down a set of steps or a hiker up a 
> motorway
>
> As described on the proposal page, this tag is meant to be temporary until 
> more data can be obtained from survey.
>
> I have now had a few rounds of cleanup of the usage of this tag in Brazil. My 
> cleanup run last year found highway=road that had been unedited for 3 years, 
> so hardly temporary. This year I found several highway=road added by armchair 
> mappers from Europe, and I doubt they ever will travel to the remote areas of 
> Brazil to correct this.
>
> I am still in progress of checking each of these elements manually, I started 
> this years cleaning with more than 3600 highway road in Brazil alone, roughly 
> 14 months after I had completely cleaned Brazil the last time.
>
> In my opinion, a warning about its temporary state and non-capability with 
> data consumers should be added to the wiki, and it should be removed from the 
> standard presets of all the common editors. Also editors with validation 
> functions should give a warning about the existence of this temporary tag so 
> that it can be dealt with properly by people editing in the areas, and 
> further QA tools should highlight them as items needing attention.
>   
> Aun Johnsen
>
>
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk




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[OSM-talk] non-temporary usage of highway=road

[Aun Johnsen]

I see a lot of usage of the generic tag highway=road, which is meant as a 
temporary tag and a “low level entry tag” for beginners. The problem with this 
is that because of its ambiguous meaning, it is impossible for data consumers 
to process this correctly. 

i.e., highway=road means anything between a small footway to motorway, so a 
routing engine might wrongfully send cars down a set of steps or a hiker up a 
motorway

As described on the proposal page, this tag is meant to be temporary until more 
data can be obtained from survey.

I have now had a few rounds of cleanup of the usage of this tag in Brazil. My 
cleanup run last year found highway=road that had been unedited for 3 years, so 
hardly temporary. This year I found several highway=road added by armchair 
mappers from Europe, and I doubt they ever will travel to the remote areas of 
Brazil to correct this.

I am still in progress of checking each of these elements manually, I started 
this years cleaning with more than 3600 highway road in Brazil alone, roughly 
14 months after I had completely cleaned Brazil the last time.

In my opinion, a warning about its temporary state and non-capability with data 
consumers should be added to the wiki, and it should be removed from the 
standard presets of all the common editors. Also editors with validation 
functions should give a warning about the existence of this temporary tag so 
that it can be dealt with properly by people editing in the areas, and further 
QA tools should highlight them as items needing attention.
  
Aun Johnsen


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