Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
On Mon Nov 10 2014 at 16:45:17 Stefan Tiran stefan.ti...@student.tugraz.at wrote: [1] I assume, it is mostly people who see the world only through the front shield of their car. I think this argument goes both ways, it all comes down to the level of abstraction you are going to apply. We usually also don't map every lane as single way, we consider them all as part of the street as well as a sidewalk is part of the street - I'm walking down Favoritenstraße and not a footway that happens to be next to Favoritenstraße (and to use it for routing some sort of preprocessing is needed any way). Having said that, I'm with you that deleting them is still vandalism. ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
On 11/10/2014 07:45 AM, e...@gmx.net wrote: I always thought deleting correct data in osm is kind of forbidden. So i would recommend to leave it in there, its not destroying anything or? You're missing the point of this discussion. It's not about whether correct data should be deleted but about the question if mapping parallel footways is actually correct data. And if one does not consider the separate footways correct data and one feels it destroys valid routing (as in Kevin's example) it's easy to delete them without violating any OSM rule we all agree upon. Norbert ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
2014-11-10 10:29 GMT+01:00 Stefan Tiran stefan.ti...@student.tugraz.at: Hi, Norbert Wenzel wrote: You're missing the point of this discussion. It's not about whether correct data should be deleted but about the question if mapping parallel footways is actually correct data. This might be your point of view but I would not consider it as common sense. It is obviously also my point of view. How many do we need, so that point of view becomes common sense? And if one does not consider the separate footways correct data and one feels it destroys valid routing (as in Kevin's example) it's easy to delete them without violating any OSM rule we all agree upon. Kevin's example merely shows that asking the wrong question results in useless answers. If you intend to go the direct line, crossing the street at an arbitrary point, it does not make sense to use a router in order to calculate a route on dedicated footways. Instead you should use the so-called off-road navigation mode of your GPS device, which only shows the direction. You are talking about asking the wrong question and in the same context you state if our tagging destroys your application, don't use it. And yes, that is exactly what you just have said. This footway tagging is in fact destroying information. It is not correct data as it misses information and it somehow removes information that was already there. So everyone who uses this tagging is deleting correct data. In OSM everyone is allowed to use any tag he/she likes as long as it does not conflict with any existing data nor invalidates or removes it. If you (for the avoidance of doubts: you=everyone who uses this tagging) used some new tag and not highway=footway, this all wouldn't be a problem. But you want it to show up in the renderers (tagging for the renderer) and some routers (tagging for the routers). So before you (in the meaning as given above) start pointing fingers at someone (disrespecting the work of others) you should first look into the mirror. ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
On 11/10/2014 10:29 AM, Stefan Tiran wrote: Norbert Wenzel wrote: On 11/10/2014 07:45 AM, e...@gmx.net wrote: I always thought deleting correct data in osm is kind of forbidden. So i would recommend to leave it in there, its not destroying anything or? You're missing the point of this discussion. It's not about whether correct data should be deleted but about the question if mapping parallel footways is actually correct data. This might be your point of view but I would not consider it as common sense. This isn't any point of view, that's me summing up the discussion. Nobody discussing here said it's good data but it doesn't belong to OSM but all the discussion is about whether it is correct data or data added correctly (in whatever posters sense of correct). I just felt that more or less implying that opposing the mapping of sidewalks as parallel footways is close to vandalism (deleting correct data) is quite harsh and far fetched. That's how I understood the part I quoted from emga and that's why I thought the point of the discussion had been missed. Norbert ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
On 2014-11-09 22:19, Kevin Kofler wrote: But the data is NOT correct. no data in OSM can ever be correct, because than it would be an atomic-exact copy of the real world, and hey, there is already one. ;) leaving ironic philosphical mode, any data in OSM has and always will be an approximation, a crude simplification, an abstract model. and just because current routers are just too simple to use the data correctly doesnt mean that the data is wrong. the data is ahead of the curve, routers will learn how to use it or how to ignore it. evolution. just like the openSTREETmap now also includes houses and forests and mobile network masts and power lines and all that other useless stuff noone needs to route a car over the autobahn. allowing to think outside the box is what makes OSM so great. what i would really like to know is why you have a problem for others pushing the use-cases of OSM further. cheers, grubernd ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
Hi, Norbert Wenzel wrote: On 11/10/2014 10:29 AM, Stefan Tiran wrote: Norbert Wenzel wrote: On 11/10/2014 07:45 AM, e...@gmx.net wrote: I always thought deleting correct data in osm is kind of forbidden. So i would recommend to leave it in there, its not destroying anything or? You're missing the point of this discussion. It's not about whether correct data should be deleted but about the question if mapping parallel footways is actually correct data. This might be your point of view but I would not consider it as common sense. This isn't any point of view, that's me summing up the discussion. Thanks, this is what I wanted to point out. My opinion differs because for me it is out of question that sidewalks belong into OSM with all physical properties attached. Nobody discussing here said it's good data but it doesn't belong to OSM but all the discussion is about whether it is correct data or data added correctly (in whatever posters sense of correct). Even worse: people don't say what they mean. Mapping sidewalks and crossings is correct, if they exist. It does not matter, if someone infers wrong conclusions because of their own wrong assumptions. The assumption, you could only cross streets at dedicated crossings is wrong in Austria. I just felt that more or less implying that opposing the mapping of sidewalks as parallel footways is close to vandalism (deleting correct data) is quite harsh and far fetched. It depends. If someone says some data should be deleted, this can indeed be considered as incitement to vandalism. And now the reasons for my point of view: I like the idea that OSM data can be used for all different purposes including wheelchair routing. Also, I fully support that projects who aim to do that should be enabled to directly use the OSM database, because it actually helps OSM in getting better. The alternative would be to fork the database and then it would be no help for OSM at all. So even though micromapping introduces features, which some people[1] are not interested in, it does not mean that people should be encouraged to delete them. Yours, Stefan [1] I assume, it is mostly people who see the world only through the front shield of their car. ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
grubernd wrote: just thinking about to delete correct data is disrespecting the work of others on every level. But the data is NOT correct. There are only a few crossing opportunities tagged for every street, but it is legal here in Austria to cross a street not only on a zebra crossing, but also at ANY point that's not within 25 meters of the next zebra crossing. This cannot be sensibly tagged with the crossing = footway mapping approach that the separate sidewalk mappers are using. I agree with KaiRo, this nonsense data should just be deleted, ASAP, before the disease spreads. Kevin Kofler ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
PS: I wrote: But the data is NOT correct. There are only a few crossing opportunities tagged for every street, but it is legal here in Austria to cross a street not only on a zebra crossing, but also at ANY point that's not within 25 meters of the next zebra crossing. This cannot be sensibly tagged with the crossing = footway mapping approach that the separate sidewalk mappers are using. As an example: http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search?q=Weyringergasse%2033,%20Wien Here, there's a ~250-meter-long way without any mapped crossing. If, as a hypothetical example, I want to go by foot from the Sri Lankan embassy to the Restaurant Venezia right across the street, the router sends me on a ~250 meter detour all the way to Favoritenstraße and back instead of the ~25 meter segment along the abstracted street I would otherwise get. Kevin Kofler ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
Sorry for the wrong format, html instead of txt. The best thing is to think befor you, or somebody else, uses a routing App, Site, etc. So when you view the route, you will see that a immidiate crossing would be shorter than the showen way. I always thought deleting correct data in osm is kind of forbidden. So i would recommend to leave it in there, its not destroying anything or? And something to think: should we start mapping every exception in StVO? It could be funny... -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.atschrieb: PS: I wrote: But the data is NOT correct. There are only a few crossing opportunities tagged for every street, but it is legal here in Austria to cross a street not only on a zebra crossing, but also at ANY point thats not within 25 meters of the next zebra crossing. This cannot be sensibly tagged with the crossing = footway mapping approach that the separate sidewalk mappers are using. As an example: http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search?q=Weyringergasse%2033,%20Wien Here, theres a ~250-meter-long way without any mapped crossing. If, as a hypothetical example, I want to go by foot from the Sri Lankan embassy to the Restaurant Venezia right across the street, the router sends me on a ~250 meter detour all the way to Favoritenstrae and back instead of the ~25 meter segment along the abstracted street I would otherwise get. Kevin Kofler ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
2014-11-09 22:19 GMT+01:00 Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at: But the data is NOT correct. +1 I agree with KaiRo, this nonsense data should just be deleted, ASAP, before the disease spreads. +1 and another +1 for putting data into quotation marks. ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
Am 2014-10-30 um 19:36 schrieb Michael Maier: If the sidewalks are correctly mapped, and the kerbs are mapped too (as they are in one of the examples Carles provided, with kerb=lowered), it is clearly an loss if information if the ways are deleted. as far as I can see, there isn't any additional information in this example, which couldn't be mapped with sidewalk tags on the streets and kerb tags on the crossings I'm absolutely with you, that footway=sidewalk shouldn't be rendered (at least on z18) - but we're not mapping for the renderer here, or are we?^^ In fact, I _do_ consider this example as mapping for the renderer, because that's the main difference in this case, there isn't anything that makes wheelchair routing easier, quite the contrary signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
Am 2014-10-30 um 01:30 schrieb Carles Pina i Estany: there seems to be footpaths on a normal street. I'm not an OSM expert but this seems unusual? Hi, micromapping of sidewalks is a controversial subject, personally I don't think it's a good idea, but I guess you will not find a consensus on this topic any time soon best regards Andreas ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
On 30/10/14 01:30, Carles Pina i Estany wrote: Hi again, I was reviewing my notes and I noticed something in Vienna that confused me a little bit. It's here for example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=48.194502890110016mlon=16.38637661933899#map=18/48.19637/16.38655 There are, in Vienna, many foot paths in places that I wouldn't expect. A more clear example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/48.18925/16.37574 there seems to be footpaths on a normal street. I'm not an OSM expert but this seems unusual? Hi, these footpaths are explicitly mapped sidewalks (or pavements in UK), they are tagged “highway=footway” and “footway=sidewalk”. They are used e.g. for wheelchair routing. See the attached screenshot: OsmAnd renders it a bit too red (see http://pinux.info/files/Screenshot_2014-10-30-00-14-45.png ). In this case, I think OsmAnd's shouldn't render footways tagged additionally with “footway=sidewalk” as prominently as normal footways. But that's the case with nearly all renderers today :-/ This is only in a few zones of Vienna. Vienna is a big city, and this seem to be the 'test regions' - it will take some years to have all sidewalks in Vienna correctly mapped. Regards, Many thanks for the nice review of your Austrian experience ☺. Best wishes, Michael On Oct/29/2014, Carles Pina i Estany wrote: Hi, (sorry for writing in English here). Last week I went to Austria for tourism (Graz, Vienna, driving between Graz to Salzburg, etc.). I used OsmAnd application to have Open Street Map data off-line, as I usually do. You guys did an excellent job mapping! Austria! Hats off to you! Vienna has the house numbers and everything. The roads were good mapped. Hiking paths were there too. We enjoyed even more our time in Austria thanks to your good job. And by by the way, you have an amazing country :-) Regards and keep doing the amazing job, it's very appreciated. -- Michael Maier, Student of Telematics @ Graz University of Technology OpenStreetMap Graz http://osm.org/go/0Iz@paV http://wiki.osm.org/Graz http://wiki.osm.org/Graz/Stammtisch signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
Carles Pina i Estany schrieb: there seems to be footpaths on a normal street. Those should all be deleted. They are sideways and ought to be mapped as tags on the street, or else any routing with them won't work properly as you can't build a clear model of where you can access the street unless you map every point where they are actually connected to their street. And even if what I just said is only one side of a controversial discussion, they for sure should never be rendered in a normal map, at least not in the ugly way you see them in the pictures you pointed out. KaiRo ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
2014-10-30 14:19 GMT+01:00 Robert Kaiser ka...@kairo.at: Those should all be deleted. They are sideways and ought to be mapped as tags on the street +1 . I consider this kind of mapping as destructive. ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
On 30/10/14 14:19, Robert Kaiser wrote: Carles Pina i Estany schrieb: there seems to be footpaths on a normal street. Those should all be deleted. They are sideways and ought to be mapped as tags on the street, or else any routing with them won't work properly as you can't build a clear model of where you can access the street unless you map every point where they are actually connected to their street. Oh come on guys, we've had this discussion half a year ago... Not everyone can access the street, if there is a kerb higher than 3cm. Please think outside your own scope about the people which don't have two working legs, and are restricted to a wheelchair. You're faster than you can imagine in this situation if the Truck Factor does only hit one of your legs... If the sidewalks are correctly mapped, and the kerbs are mapped too (as they are in one of the examples Carles provided, with kerb=lowered), it is clearly an loss if information if the ways are deleted. The result on the past discussion was: Map as you wish, but do not destroy other's work or remove information. And even if what I just said is only one side of a controversial discussion, they for sure should never be rendered in a normal map, at least not in the ugly way you see them in the pictures you pointed out. I'm absolutely with you, that footway=sidewalk shouldn't be rendered (at least on z18) - but we're not mapping for the renderer here, or are we?^^ KaiRo best regards, Michael -- Michael Maier, Student of Telematics @ Graz University of Technology OpenStreetMap Graz http://osm.org/go/0Iz@paV http://wiki.osm.org/Graz http://wiki.osm.org/Graz/Stammtisch signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
Michael Maier schrieb: The result on the past discussion was: Map as you wish, but do not destroy other's work or remove information. No, the outcome was: We can't reach an agreement, so change the area you care about the way you find better without taking information away that you think is in there. And in the end, that's apparently the cowboy style that OSM is built around, if you like it or not. And yes, I'm even against separate mapping when I try to put myself into the shoes of someone not being able to use their legs or eyes on a sidewalk. Even kerb=lowered doesn't tell on what side it is and if I can get over it, as some easily get over a 5cm one and others barely can make it over a 1-2cm one. If you want to get there, you need to map the side and the exact height of a curb, and if I follow your argumentation, that actually needs to be a separate barrier=curb way with a specified height for all pieces of it and the sidewalk and street need to be areas that are adjacent to that barrier so software can flawlessly map all points where crossing is possible based on your capabilities. KaiRo ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
[Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
Hi, (sorry for writing in English here). Last week I went to Austria for tourism (Graz, Vienna, driving between Graz to Salzburg, etc.). I used OsmAnd application to have Open Street Map data off-line, as I usually do. You guys did an excellent job mapping! Austria! Hats off to you! Vienna has the house numbers and everything. The roads were good mapped. Hiking paths were there too. We enjoyed even more our time in Austria thanks to your good job. And by by the way, you have an amazing country :-) Regards and keep doing the amazing job, it's very appreciated. -- Carles Pina i Estany Web: http://pinux.info || Blog: http://pintant.cat ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] in Austria, good experience - thank you!
Hi again, I was reviewing my notes and I noticed something in Vienna that confused me a little bit. It's here for example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=48.194502890110016mlon=16.38637661933899#map=18/48.19637/16.38655 There are, in Vienna, many foot paths in places that I wouldn't expect. A more clear example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/48.18925/16.37574 there seems to be footpaths on a normal street. I'm not an OSM expert but this seems unusual? See the attached screenshot: OsmAnd renders it a bit too red (see http://pinux.info/files/Screenshot_2014-10-30-00-14-45.png ). This is only in a few zones of Vienna. Regards, On Oct/29/2014, Carles Pina i Estany wrote: Hi, (sorry for writing in English here). Last week I went to Austria for tourism (Graz, Vienna, driving between Graz to Salzburg, etc.). I used OsmAnd application to have Open Street Map data off-line, as I usually do. You guys did an excellent job mapping! Austria! Hats off to you! Vienna has the house numbers and everything. The roads were good mapped. Hiking paths were there too. We enjoyed even more our time in Austria thanks to your good job. And by by the way, you have an amazing country :-) Regards and keep doing the amazing job, it's very appreciated. -- Carles Pina i Estany Web: http://pinux.info || Blog: http://pintant.cat ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at -- Carles Pina i Estany Web: http://pinux.info || Blog: http://pintant.cat ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
