Re: [talk-au] Adding polygons of the aerodromes

[Nemanja Bračko]

Thanks everyone for replying to this thread.

@Berjo, as I've noted in my first email we do not have any other signals at
the moment except imagery, and except for NSW where we have a base map.

@others, is it okay to make a polygon when we can recognize tarmac on a
airstrip and when we can clearly see start and the end of the runway
(zebras at the beginning and at the end)? Or if that 'airport' has official
code (e.g. ICAO)?

Thanks,
Nemanja

Sent from my phone

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 06:42 John Berkers  wrote:

> Hi Nemanja,
>
> It is worth noting that most airports/aerodromes in regional areas of
> Australia do not have control towers as they are centrally operated by Air
> Services Australia from one of 3 sites using remote cameras and such.  The
> presence or absence of a control tower should therefore not be the criteria
> on which to base whether it should be mapped.  While difficult to tell from
> Aerial imagery, there does appear to be a small building near the strip.
>
> Where feasible, adding the airport designations and runway numbers would
> be advantageous.  Is there a permissible dataset that contains this
> information?
>
> Digging into the listed source tag (ourairports.com) shows that they use
> OSM as the map layer, and drilling down to a chart takes you to SkyVector
> who also use OSM for map data (among other sources).
>
> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 10:28 PM Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) via Talk-au <
> talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>>
>>
>> We would like to manually add polygons around airports in whole
>> Australia. We have added polygons for very few airports that were marked
>> just with a single node.
>>
>>
>>
>> By using THIS  OverPass-Turbo link, you
>> can see that there are nearly 1,200 airports that needs to be inspected.
>>
>> We could recognize that other map competitors have properly marked most
>> of these airports as polygons.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway, we have doubt should we add polygons in the following
>> situation(s):
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/73310214
>>
>>
>>
>> There are no control tower nor any other buildings. It has a proper name
>> Kulin Airport @-32.6721992, 118.1689987.
>>
>> Should we add a polygon in such cases?
>>
>>
>>
>> Please note that *we won’t add any polygons* if the
>> airport/airstrip/runway is on the water.
>>
>>
>>
>> We believe that there is no need to preserve both way and a node of the
>> same feature. Especially because that node is somewhere at the center of
>> the airport and it doesn’t represent entry of the airport area or entry of
>> some building. Example should be Hamilton Airport @
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/407705915. We would merge existing
>> node of the airport in to polygon of the same polygon and we would remove
>> tags from the merged node.
>>
>>
>>
>> If we are adding new polygon, we would preserve existing airport node by
>> keeping this node as a part of the new polygon.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance for the answers!
>>
>>
>>
>> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
>>
>> Nemanja
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [talk-au] Adding polygons of the aerodromes

[John Berkers]

Hi Nemanja,

It is worth noting that most airports/aerodromes in regional areas of
Australia do not have control towers as they are centrally operated by Air
Services Australia from one of 3 sites using remote cameras and such.  The
presence or absence of a control tower should therefore not be the criteria
on which to base whether it should be mapped.  While difficult to tell from
Aerial imagery, there does appear to be a small building near the strip.

Where feasible, adding the airport designations and runway numbers would be
advantageous.  Is there a permissible dataset that contains this
information?

Digging into the listed source tag (ourairports.com) shows that they use
OSM as the map layer, and drilling down to a chart takes you to SkyVector
who also use OSM for map data (among other sources).

On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 10:28 PM Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) via Talk-au <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
> We would like to manually add polygons around airports in whole Australia.
> We have added polygons for very few airports that were marked just with a
> single node.
>
>
>
> By using THIS  OverPass-Turbo link, you
> can see that there are nearly 1,200 airports that needs to be inspected.
>
> We could recognize that other map competitors have properly marked most of
> these airports as polygons.
>
>
>
> Anyway, we have doubt should we add polygons in the following situation(s):
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/73310214
>
>
>
> There are no control tower nor any other buildings. It has a proper name
> Kulin Airport @-32.6721992, 118.1689987.
>
> Should we add a polygon in such cases?
>
>
>
> Please note that *we won’t add any polygons* if the
> airport/airstrip/runway is on the water.
>
>
>
> We believe that there is no need to preserve both way and a node of the
> same feature. Especially because that node is somewhere at the center of
> the airport and it doesn’t represent entry of the airport area or entry of
> some building. Example should be Hamilton Airport @
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/407705915. We would merge existing
> node of the airport in to polygon of the same polygon and we would remove
> tags from the merged node.
>
>
>
> If we are adding new polygon, we would preserve existing airport node by
> keeping this node as a part of the new polygon.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance for the answers!
>
>
>
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
>
> Nemanja
>
>
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
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Re: [talk-au] Adding polygons of the aerodromes

[cleary]

I agree with Warin's comments.

Some years ago someone did a mass import from a public-domain website with 
"airport" information. Personally I think of an airport as a location which is 
accessible to the public and which offers regular commercial flights.  Most of 
the "airports" shown in Australia are private runways which are used only in 
medical emergencies or if local roads are unusable for an extended period.  
Some are almost compeletely disused and some cannot be found in the satellite 
imagery.  Many do not have boundaries - as Warin noted. I would be concerned at 
mapping non-existent features.  I expect most of the "airports" are like the 
example cited at Kulin WA.  OSM also shows another aeroway node a few 
kilometres away from that location, this second one being for the Kulin Bush 
Races, which are held on one weekend each year. The runway appears to be on a 
farm located near the racetrack and there appear to be no boundaries that could 
be mapped.

I support mapping boundaries that actually do exist, provided we have the 
relevant information. But I expect this will be a small proportion of all the  
airports or aerodromes on the map.




On Wed, 25 Dec 2019, at 11:26 AM, Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) via Talk-au wrote:
>  
> Hi everyone,
> 
> 
> We would like to manually add polygons around airports in whole 
> Australia. We have added polygons for very few airports that were 
> marked just with a single node.
> 
> 
> By using THIS  OverPass-Turbo link, 
> you can see that there are nearly 1,200 airports that needs to be 
> inspected.
> 
> We could recognize that other map competitors have properly marked most 
> of these airports as polygons.
> 
> 
> Anyway, we have doubt should we add polygons in the following situation(s):
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/73310214
> 
> 
> There are no control tower nor any other buildings. It has a proper 
> name Kulin Airport @-32.6721992, 118.1689987.
> 
> Should we add a polygon in such cases?
> 
> 
> Please note that *we won’t add any polygons* if the 
> airport/airstrip/runway is on the water.
> 
> 
> We believe that there is no need to preserve both way and a node of the 
> same feature. Especially because that node is somewhere at the center 
> of the airport and it doesn’t represent entry of the airport area or 
> entry of some building. Example should be Hamilton Airport @  
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/407705915. We would merge existing 
> node of the airport in to polygon of the same polygon and we would 
> remove tags from the merged node.
> 
> 
> If we are adding new polygon, we would preserve existing airport node 
> by keeping this node as a part of the new polygon.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for the answers!
> 
> 
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
> 
> Nemanja
> 
> 
> ___
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> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>

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Re: [talk-au] Adding polygons of the aerodromes

[Warin]

Many of these 'airports' have no effective boundary and are best 
represented by a node.


Some are 'operated' by the local council and the council owns a large 
area of land around the 'airport'.


Some may be 'operated by the local station (in American 'ranch') and 
they may own some 100s of miles around the 'airport'.


These 'operators' see little point in paying scarce money to fence in 
the 'boundaries'.


Many of them have no 'regular commercial' flights, some have regular 
postal deliveries (by plane), some have the Doctor fly in (google Royal 
Flying Doctor Service).


For the state of New South Wales you may find the LPI Base Map usefull 
to find the legal boundaries, those may not exist for some of these 
'airports'.


I would not be too anxious to add closed ways for these 'airports'. Few 
people use them.



On 26/12/19 07:56, Nemanja Bračko wrote:
Yes. We do not have other signals. It is possible to miss official 
bounding box (when it is hard to see fence or when there is no fence 
at all), but it will be close enough and it will represent airport 
area. I could see that couple of airports have really rough 
approximation of the boundaries.



Thanks,
Nemanja

Sent from my phone

On Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 21:42 Ben Kelley > wrote:


Hi.

That seems like a good idea. How will you know the bounds of the
airport? Just from aerial photos?

 - Ben.

On Wed, 25 Dec 2019 at 22:28, Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) via
Talk-au mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:

Hi everyone,

We would like to manually add polygons around airports in
whole Australia. We have added polygons for very few airports
that were marked just with a single node.

By using THIS  OverPass-Turbo
link, you can see that there are nearly 1,200 airports that
needs to be inspected.

We could recognize that other map competitors have properly
marked most of these airports as polygons.

Anyway, we have doubt should we add polygons in the following
situation(s):

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/73310214

There are no control tower nor any other buildings. It has a
proper name Kulin Airport @-32.6721992, 118.1689987.

Should we add a polygon in such cases?

Please note that *we won’t add any polygons* if the
airport/airstrip/runway is on the water.



Umm some of the 'water' is very intermittent .. to the degree that 
farmers plough it and plant crops on it.


We believe that there is no need to preserve both way and a
node of the same feature. Especially because that node is
somewhere at the center of the airport and it doesn’t
represent entry of the airport area or entry of some building.
Example should be Hamilton Airport @
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/407705915
. We would merge
existing node of the airport in to polygon of the same polygon
and we would remove tags from the merged node.

If we are adding new polygon, we would preserve existing
airport node by keeping this node as a part of the new polygon.

Thanks in advance for the answers!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,

Nemanja


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Re: [talk-au] Adding polygons of the aerodromes

[Nemanja Bračko]

Yes. We do not have other signals. It is possible to miss official bounding
box (when it is hard to see fence or when there is no fence at all), but it
will be close enough and it will represent airport area. I could see that
couple of airports have really rough approximation of the boundaries.


Thanks,
Nemanja

Sent from my phone

On Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 21:42 Ben Kelley  wrote:

> Hi.
>
> That seems like a good idea. How will you know the bounds of the airport?
> Just from aerial photos?
>
>  - Ben.
>
> On Wed, 25 Dec 2019 at 22:28, Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) via Talk-au <
> talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>>
>>
>> We would like to manually add polygons around airports in whole
>> Australia. We have added polygons for very few airports that were marked
>> just with a single node.
>>
>>
>>
>> By using THIS  OverPass-Turbo link, you
>> can see that there are nearly 1,200 airports that needs to be inspected.
>>
>> We could recognize that other map competitors have properly marked most
>> of these airports as polygons.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway, we have doubt should we add polygons in the following
>> situation(s):
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/73310214
>>
>>
>>
>> There are no control tower nor any other buildings. It has a proper name
>> Kulin Airport @-32.6721992, 118.1689987.
>>
>> Should we add a polygon in such cases?
>>
>>
>>
>> Please note that *we won’t add any polygons* if the
>> airport/airstrip/runway is on the water.
>>
>>
>>
>> We believe that there is no need to preserve both way and a node of the
>> same feature. Especially because that node is somewhere at the center of
>> the airport and it doesn’t represent entry of the airport area or entry of
>> some building. Example should be Hamilton Airport @
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/407705915. We would merge existing
>> node of the airport in to polygon of the same polygon and we would remove
>> tags from the merged node.
>>
>>
>>
>> If we are adding new polygon, we would preserve existing airport node by
>> keeping this node as a part of the new polygon.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance for the answers!
>>
>>
>>
>> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
>>
>> Nemanja
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [talk-au] Adding polygons of the aerodromes

[Ben Kelley]

Hi.

That seems like a good idea. How will you know the bounds of the airport?
Just from aerial photos?

 - Ben.

On Wed, 25 Dec 2019 at 22:28, Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) via Talk-au <
talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
> We would like to manually add polygons around airports in whole Australia.
> We have added polygons for very few airports that were marked just with a
> single node.
>
>
>
> By using THIS  OverPass-Turbo link, you
> can see that there are nearly 1,200 airports that needs to be inspected.
>
> We could recognize that other map competitors have properly marked most of
> these airports as polygons.
>
>
>
> Anyway, we have doubt should we add polygons in the following situation(s):
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/73310214
>
>
>
> There are no control tower nor any other buildings. It has a proper name
> Kulin Airport @-32.6721992, 118.1689987.
>
> Should we add a polygon in such cases?
>
>
>
> Please note that *we won’t add any polygons* if the
> airport/airstrip/runway is on the water.
>
>
>
> We believe that there is no need to preserve both way and a node of the
> same feature. Especially because that node is somewhere at the center of
> the airport and it doesn’t represent entry of the airport area or entry of
> some building. Example should be Hamilton Airport @
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/407705915. We would merge existing
> node of the airport in to polygon of the same polygon and we would remove
> tags from the merged node.
>
>
>
> If we are adding new polygon, we would preserve existing airport node by
> keeping this node as a part of the new polygon.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance for the answers!
>
>
>
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
>
> Nemanja
>
>
>
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[talk-au] Adding polygons of the aerodromes

[Nemanja Bracko (E-Search) via Talk-au]

Hi everyone,

We would like to manually add polygons around airports in whole Australia. We 
have added polygons for very few airports that were marked just with a single 
node.

By using THIS OverPass-Turbo link, you can see 
that there are nearly 1,200 airports that needs to be inspected.
We could recognize that other map competitors have properly marked most of 
these airports as polygons.

Anyway, we have doubt should we add polygons in the following situation(s):
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/73310214

There are no control tower nor any other buildings. It has a proper name Kulin 
Airport @-32.6721992, 118.1689987.
Should we add a polygon in such cases?

Please note that we won't add any polygons if the airport/airstrip/runway is on 
the water.

We believe that there is no need to preserve both way and a node of the same 
feature. Especially because that node is somewhere at the center of the airport 
and it doesn't represent entry of the airport area or entry of some building. 
Example should be Hamilton Airport @ 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/407705915. We would merge existing node of 
the airport in to polygon of the same polygon and we would remove tags from the 
merged node.

If we are adding new polygon, we would preserve existing airport node by 
keeping this node as a part of the new polygon.

Thanks in advance for the answers!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year,
Nemanja

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