Re: [talk-au] Discussion J: regionalisation of editor presets
There is another thread here about the ATG being recently changed and it being discussed to revert this back, so could you please post what tags and kinds of infrastructure you're talking about? On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 10:05, Herbert.Remi via Talk-au < talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > Discussion J: regionalisation of editor presets > I am now putting the question at the top and bottom of the text. > > ## QUESTION > How can the presets for the editor (ID and JOSM) be changed to the ATG > default for the ACT when editing paths in this territory? > > # The Issue (background) > What is the cause of the overwhelming inconsistencies between the path > tags in OSM and the ATG? This was the question from Discussion I > (6/10/2019). There may be multiple causes. The error seems to be systematic. > > ## Human factors and preset design > One possible systematic cause is that mappers are trusting the preset to > get it right. > > If it looks like a pedestrian path, then the click on the “walking man” > button in the ID editor. The presumption here is the preset is correct for > the ACT. This turns out to be a mistake. > > If the path looks like it is for bikes then the mapper clicks the blue > bike. Again, the mapper is trusting the preset to be correct for the ACT > but it is not. > > The preset with the closed approximation to the ATG tags are the “bike and > pedestrian” button (noted in Discussion D), which is the least favoured of > the three in the ACT (try it for yourself in overpass turbo). > > ## ID editor preset values > The ID editor has the following tag values for presets. None are correct > according to the ATG for the ACT. Pushing any of these buttons will fill > the OSM database with the wrong data for the ACT. > > Foot Path preset (symbol "walking man“) > tags: > - highway=footway > > Cycle Path preset (symbol blue bike) > tags: > - highway=cycleway > > Cycle & Foot Path preset (symbol blue bike) > tags: > - cycleway=highway > - foot=designated > - bicycle=designated > > ## accumulating tags assumption > One mapper has suggested in this forum that the tags accumulated when you > click multiple buttons, one after another. This assumption may be widely > held but is also incorrect. > > The actual behaviour of the ID editor is quite different. Push the buttons > in any sequence and the tags of the new preset overwrite the tags that the > previous button had put on the "way". Tags are overwritten and not > accumulated. (Lifecycle tags accumulate a history.) > > ## The default is king - proven again and again > Studies have shown that people will stick with the default option 85% of > the time. In the studies, an alternative option is offered but nobody ever > clicks on it. This is human nature (psychology). People prefer to go with > the default. > > For the ID editor, this is problematic. The three preset buttons discussed > have default tags and the editor does not offer to the mapper to change > them. I doubt most people would think to do so. > > The presets in the editor have become the defacto STANDARD, replacing > anything that might be found in the ATG. The ATG is ignored in preference > for a default chosen by the editor developer. The outcome is a systematic > skew of the data in OSM to preset values (verify it yourself in overpass > turbo). > > ## changing the preset to be ATG conform for each state/territory > One option is to change these three presets to conform with the ATG and > ACT standard values for “type A” and “type B” paths (see Discussion D). > Both these types are a Cycle & Foot Path but may have a different > appearance. Cycle Path and Foot Path would take on the ATG default for > cycle ONLY path and pedestrian ONLY path respectively. The mapper may need > to be reminded that the Cycle & Foot Path is the default for the ACT. > > Another option would be to set the Cycle Path and Foot Path with the ATG > and ACT standard values for “type A” and “type B” paths (see Discussion D). > The advantage of this is that we don’t require the mapper to change their > behaviour. For the mapper, it is business as usual. Over time the OSM data > will be corrected through the mappers' habit of toggling each other's work. > The whole OSM data set for paths in the ACT will be overwritten and it will > become largely correct. We would go from 95% incorrect to mostly correct. A > big improvement. > > ## QUESTION > How can the presets for the editor (ID and JOSM) be changed to the ATG > default for the ACT when editing paths in this territory? > > I welcome your comments. > Keywords: Australia, ACT, ATG, ID editor, presets, paths, root cause > analysis > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Discussion J: regionalisation of editor presets
I believe the request is: Request: *For all regions of the world that have their own road rules, mapping standards/conventions, to enhance the common editors to support region specific tagging. Additionally have the editor identify which region you are editing in and switch to the correct presets.* I'd guess there's 1000s of such regions, especially if you go as small as the ACT. Why would you restrict yourself to bike paths? I could imagine many tagging presets have similar arguments in many regions. It would be onerous to maintain such detailed presets for so many regions, even if they could be identified. I think the best plan is to continue with what should be happening now, which is the human must decide how to apply the appropriate tagging based on their knowledge of what's on the ground, and the tagging conventions of the region being mapped. Adam On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 10:13, Ben Kelley wrote: > Hi. > > A question of clarification: > > Are you asking how to change the defaults when you yourself are editing? > > Or are you wanting to raise a problem you see with the current defaults? > (This would seem to be a problem you perceive rather than a question.) > > > - Ben. > > > On Mon., 7 Oct. 2019, 10:05 Herbert.Remi via Talk-au, < > talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > >> Discussion J: regionalisation of editor presets >> I am now putting the question at the top and bottom of the text. >> >> ## QUESTION >> How can the presets for the editor (ID and JOSM) be changed to the ATG >> default for the ACT when editing paths in this territory? >> >> # The Issue (background) >> What is the cause of the overwhelming inconsistencies between the path >> tags in OSM and the ATG? This was the question from Discussion I >> (6/10/2019). There may be multiple causes. The error seems to be systematic. >> >> ## Human factors and preset design >> One possible systematic cause is that mappers are trusting the preset to >> get it right. >> >> If it looks like a pedestrian path, then the click on the “walking man” >> button in the ID editor. The presumption here is the preset is correct for >> the ACT. This turns out to be a mistake. >> >> If the path looks like it is for bikes then the mapper clicks the blue >> bike. Again, the mapper is trusting the preset to be correct for the ACT >> but it is not. >> >> The preset with the closed approximation to the ATG tags are the “bike >> and pedestrian” button (noted in Discussion D), which is the least favoured >> of the three in the ACT (try it for yourself in overpass turbo). >> >> ## ID editor preset values >> The ID editor has the following tag values for presets. None are correct >> according to the ATG for the ACT. Pushing any of these buttons will fill >> the OSM database with the wrong data for the ACT. >> >> Foot Path preset (symbol "walking man“) >> tags: >> - highway=footway >> >> Cycle Path preset (symbol blue bike) >> tags: >> - highway=cycleway >> >> Cycle & Foot Path preset (symbol blue bike) >> tags: >> - cycleway=highway >> - foot=designated >> - bicycle=designated >> >> ## accumulating tags assumption >> One mapper has suggested in this forum that the tags accumulated when you >> click multiple buttons, one after another. This assumption may be widely >> held but is also incorrect. >> >> The actual behaviour of the ID editor is quite different. Push the >> buttons in any sequence and the tags of the new preset overwrite the tags >> that the previous button had put on the "way". Tags are overwritten and not >> accumulated. (Lifecycle tags accumulate a history.) >> >> ## The default is king - proven again and again >> Studies have shown that people will stick with the default option 85% of >> the time. In the studies, an alternative option is offered but nobody ever >> clicks on it. This is human nature (psychology). People prefer to go with >> the default. >> >> For the ID editor, this is problematic. The three preset buttons >> discussed have default tags and the editor does not offer to the mapper to >> change them. I doubt most people would think to do so. >> >> The presets in the editor have become the defacto STANDARD, replacing >> anything that might be found in the ATG. The ATG is ignored in preference >> for a default chosen by the editor developer. The outcome is a systematic >> skew of the data in OSM to preset values (verify it yourself in overpass >> turbo). >> >> ## changing the preset to be ATG conform for each state/territory >> One option is to change these three presets to conform with the ATG and >> ACT standard values for “type A” and “type B” paths (see Discussion D). >> Both these types are a Cycle & Foot Path but may have a different >> appearance. Cycle Path and Foot Path would take on the ATG default for >> cycle ONLY path and pedestrian ONLY path respectively. The mapper may need >> to be reminded that the Cycle & Foot Path is the default for the ACT. >> >> Another option would be to set the Cycle Path and Foot Path with the ATG
Re: [talk-au] Discussion J: regionalisation of editor presets
Hi. A question of clarification: Are you asking how to change the defaults when you yourself are editing? Or are you wanting to raise a problem you see with the current defaults? (This would seem to be a problem you perceive rather than a question.) - Ben. On Mon., 7 Oct. 2019, 10:05 Herbert.Remi via Talk-au, < talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > Discussion J: regionalisation of editor presets > I am now putting the question at the top and bottom of the text. > > ## QUESTION > How can the presets for the editor (ID and JOSM) be changed to the ATG > default for the ACT when editing paths in this territory? > > # The Issue (background) > What is the cause of the overwhelming inconsistencies between the path > tags in OSM and the ATG? This was the question from Discussion I > (6/10/2019). There may be multiple causes. The error seems to be systematic. > > ## Human factors and preset design > One possible systematic cause is that mappers are trusting the preset to > get it right. > > If it looks like a pedestrian path, then the click on the “walking man” > button in the ID editor. The presumption here is the preset is correct for > the ACT. This turns out to be a mistake. > > If the path looks like it is for bikes then the mapper clicks the blue > bike. Again, the mapper is trusting the preset to be correct for the ACT > but it is not. > > The preset with the closed approximation to the ATG tags are the “bike and > pedestrian” button (noted in Discussion D), which is the least favoured of > the three in the ACT (try it for yourself in overpass turbo). > > ## ID editor preset values > The ID editor has the following tag values for presets. None are correct > according to the ATG for the ACT. Pushing any of these buttons will fill > the OSM database with the wrong data for the ACT. > > Foot Path preset (symbol "walking man“) > tags: > - highway=footway > > Cycle Path preset (symbol blue bike) > tags: > - highway=cycleway > > Cycle & Foot Path preset (symbol blue bike) > tags: > - cycleway=highway > - foot=designated > - bicycle=designated > > ## accumulating tags assumption > One mapper has suggested in this forum that the tags accumulated when you > click multiple buttons, one after another. This assumption may be widely > held but is also incorrect. > > The actual behaviour of the ID editor is quite different. Push the buttons > in any sequence and the tags of the new preset overwrite the tags that the > previous button had put on the "way". Tags are overwritten and not > accumulated. (Lifecycle tags accumulate a history.) > > ## The default is king - proven again and again > Studies have shown that people will stick with the default option 85% of > the time. In the studies, an alternative option is offered but nobody ever > clicks on it. This is human nature (psychology). People prefer to go with > the default. > > For the ID editor, this is problematic. The three preset buttons discussed > have default tags and the editor does not offer to the mapper to change > them. I doubt most people would think to do so. > > The presets in the editor have become the defacto STANDARD, replacing > anything that might be found in the ATG. The ATG is ignored in preference > for a default chosen by the editor developer. The outcome is a systematic > skew of the data in OSM to preset values (verify it yourself in overpass > turbo). > > ## changing the preset to be ATG conform for each state/territory > One option is to change these three presets to conform with the ATG and > ACT standard values for “type A” and “type B” paths (see Discussion D). > Both these types are a Cycle & Foot Path but may have a different > appearance. Cycle Path and Foot Path would take on the ATG default for > cycle ONLY path and pedestrian ONLY path respectively. The mapper may need > to be reminded that the Cycle & Foot Path is the default for the ACT. > > Another option would be to set the Cycle Path and Foot Path with the ATG > and ACT standard values for “type A” and “type B” paths (see Discussion D). > The advantage of this is that we don’t require the mapper to change their > behaviour. For the mapper, it is business as usual. Over time the OSM data > will be corrected through the mappers' habit of toggling each other's work. > The whole OSM data set for paths in the ACT will be overwritten and it will > become largely correct. We would go from 95% incorrect to mostly correct. A > big improvement. > > ## QUESTION > How can the presets for the editor (ID and JOSM) be changed to the ATG > default for the ACT when editing paths in this territory? > > I welcome your comments. > Keywords: Australia, ACT, ATG, ID editor, presets, paths, root cause > analysis > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
[talk-au] Discussion J: regionalisation of editor presets
Discussion J: regionalisation of editor presets I am now putting the question at the top and bottom of the text. ## QUESTION How can the presets for the editor (ID and JOSM) be changed to the ATG default for the ACT when editing paths in this territory? # The Issue (background) What is the cause of the overwhelming inconsistencies between the path tags in OSM and the ATG? This was the question from Discussion I (6/10/2019). There may be multiple causes. The error seems to be systematic. ## Human factors and preset design One possible systematic cause is that mappers are trusting the preset to get it right. If it looks like a pedestrian path, then the click on the “walking man” button in the ID editor. The presumption here is the preset is correct for the ACT. This turns out to be a mistake. If the path looks like it is for bikes then the mapper clicks the blue bike. Again, the mapper is trusting the preset to be correct for the ACT but it is not. The preset with the closed approximation to the ATG tags are the “bike and pedestrian” button (noted in Discussion D), which is the least favoured of the three in the ACT (try it for yourself in overpass turbo). ## ID editor preset values The ID editor has the following tag values for presets. None are correct according to the ATG for the ACT. Pushing any of these buttons will fill the OSM database with the wrong data for the ACT. Foot Path preset (symbol "walking man“) tags: - highway=footway Cycle Path preset (symbol blue bike) tags: - highway=cycleway Cycle & Foot Path preset (symbol blue bike) tags: - cycleway=highway - foot=designated - bicycle=designated ## accumulating tags assumption One mapper has suggested in this forum that the tags accumulated when you click multiple buttons, one after another. This assumption may be widely held but is also incorrect. The actual behaviour of the ID editor is quite different. Push the buttons in any sequence and the tags of the new preset overwrite the tags that the previous button had put on the "way". Tags are overwritten and not accumulated. (Lifecycle tags accumulate a history.) ## The default is king - proven again and again Studies have shown that people will stick with the default option 85% of the time. In the studies, an alternative option is offered but nobody ever clicks on it. This is human nature (psychology). People prefer to go with the default. For the ID editor, this is problematic. The three preset buttons discussed have default tags and the editor does not offer to the mapper to change them. I doubt most people would think to do so. The presets in the editor have become the defacto STANDARD, replacing anything that might be found in the ATG. The ATG is ignored in preference for a default chosen by the editor developer. The outcome is a systematic skew of the data in OSM to preset values (verify it yourself in overpass turbo). ## changing the preset to be ATG conform for each state/territory One option is to change these three presets to conform with the ATG and ACT standard values for “type A” and “type B” paths (see Discussion D). Both these types are a Cycle & Foot Path but may have a different appearance. Cycle Path and Foot Path would take on the ATG default for cycle ONLY path and pedestrian ONLY path respectively. The mapper may need to be reminded that the Cycle & Foot Path is the default for the ACT. Another option would be to set the Cycle Path and Foot Path with the ATG and ACT standard values for “type A” and “type B” paths (see Discussion D). The advantage of this is that we don’t require the mapper to change their behaviour. For the mapper, it is business as usual. Over time the OSM data will be corrected through the mappers' habit of toggling each other's work. The whole OSM data set for paths in the ACT will be overwritten and it will become largely correct. We would go from 95% incorrect to mostly correct. A big improvement. ## QUESTION How can the presets for the editor (ID and JOSM) be changed to the ATG default for the ACT when editing paths in this territory? I welcome your comments. Keywords: Australia, ACT, ATG, ID editor, presets, paths, root cause analysis___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
