Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Tom Brennan]

Thanks for the various comments on the thread.

Having looked at the data in detail, my inclination is to bring in the 
remainder of the named watercourse data for NSW (the Hawkesbury and 
Sydney Coast/Georges River catchments according to Andrew Davidson).


It looks like there will still be a fair bit of data wrangling.

For the Hawkesbury, there are around 1800 named watercourses. Of those, 
about 25% seem to be already fully in OSM, and another 25% partly in 
OSM. That's using a 100m buffer around the OSM data, and checking if the 
DCS data falls within it, and has the same name. There are many reasons 
why this can fail:

- streams not fully digitised
- disconnected geometries
- names incorrect or not matching
- geometries out by > 100m (may be legit)

I assume these all need to be validated and fixed first, before being 
able to import the remainder - which need to have their own validation 
eg sanity checks, connecting up to other streams etc.


If anyone has any comments or suggestions for making this process less 
manual, I'm happy to hear them. I'm mainly using QGIS for the initial 
validation



In terms of bringing in unnamed streams, there's a few issues:
1. All the problems above with named stream import are present in the 
unnamed streams, with the added problem of names not being able to be 
used to help with matching.
2. The fact that the existing data quality from DCS is not that great. 
They will presumably update it given time, but that will then need to be 
re-imported, with the same issues as above.

3. The sheer quantity of unnamed streams

So at this stage I'm not going to bother with the unnamed stream data

cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

On 25/05/2023 10:21 pm, Tom Brennan wrote:

I'm looking at adding missing stream data in national parks around Sydney.

However, how much value is there in bringing in all of the stream data 
in say the DCS Base Map vs just the named streams?


I can see for example, the value in bringing in named streams. But there 
are huge numbers of smaller (unnamed) streams.


I have a follow up question about how best to input stream data, but 
that probably depends on the views to the question above.


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Josh Marshall]

Absolutely no offense was taken, hence the winky ;)... it was solely the
moment of realisation of my current ignorance on the matter... which I
don't take as a bad thing. It's a new opportunity to learn more, so much
thanks for taking the time to respond comprehensively and not just 'RTFM'
me. Will process the rest of your lengthy message shortly.

It's quite related, but for anyone into waterways, topology, and
aethestics, I discovered 'Relative Elevation Maps' the other day, and they
are *stunning*... would love to do the Hunter in this style.

Intro: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/19b6bfe0c3aa454c853bd6d9b7228adf
Dan making amazing art:
https://twitter.com/geo_coe/status/1549953305110929408 and
https://dancoecarto.com
Tech howto: https://michaelpaulschramm.com/posts/2022-09-20-lidar-rem/


On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 11:56, stevea  wrote:

> Josh (and talk-au list):  My remarks certainly were not meant to be or
> seem like an attack, against you or anybody in particular.  I apologize to
> you for my remarks:  I did not mean to attack you and I am sorry it came
> across that way.  It was a reply to Joseph Crowell's remarks (his "side
> note," really) that relations are "a nightmare to work with within iD and
> one of the main reasons people switch to another editor."  I was concurring
> with Joseph and wanted to strengthen that with my added "positive" by
> suggesting another editor (JOSM), which I consider superior for editing
> relations (especially compared to iD).
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Josh Marshall]

OMG... I am drooling looking at what you've done here. Just switched the
0212 in your overpass query for 0210 (Hunter River) and zoomed into the
Newcastle region... and voilá: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vuY

Was this the changeset that did your GA import for my area:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/102326974 ? I think all my changes
since then have been building on that. My context here: I like random
exploration, and a someday goal is paddleboarding the local catchment.
(I've already run or ridden a fair bit of it, watercraft required now...)

Back to my overpass link: The blue now tells me which ways are missing a
relation... I don't think I need to do one for every stream, but there's a
few major ones I've missed. And this raises some questions for me...

Where do things sit with putting tags on the relation vs on the individual
ways? Intermittent= and waterway= obviously change from way to way and so
go on them, but name, destination, wikidata, etc? Feels like that should be
all on the relation, but renderers may not use that? (Asking pragmatically,
I'm well-aware of not mapping for rendering. But it does annoy me when you
search for some feature that is obviously part of a greater whole, and
there's no indication from a returned way that such is the case.)

Thanks.


On Sat, 27 May 2023 at 11:53, Andrew Davidson  wrote:

> On 27/5/23 08:39, nwastra nwastra wrote:
> > I should add that I have only used the Surface Hydrology Lines from
> GeoScience Aust dataset for Qld catchments and as the data is drawn for
> many different sources across the country the perenniality may be not
> always be included.
>
> I admit I've been too lazy to publish the stuff I'd already done with
> the GA dataset. Rather than making people do it all again I've finally
> got round to putting it on GitHub https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams
>
> I have already imported in the named streams in NSW except for the area
> around Sydney. Mostly, again, due to laziness. As already pointed out
> the data all needs to be sanity checked against what's on the ground and
> that's really hard when it's under a city.
>
> The data is organised by AWRC catchment, so for Sydney you are looking at:
>
> https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams/blob/main/Basin_II/II12.osm.gz
>
> which is the Hawkesbury River and
>
> https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams/blob/main/Basin_II/II13.osm.gz
>
> which is Sydney Coast-Georges River
>
> You can use overpass turbo to see what is already mapped:
>
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vpu (Hawkesbury River)
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vpv (Sydney Coast-Georges River)
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[stevea]

Josh (and talk-au list):  My remarks certainly were not meant to be or seem 
like an attack, against you or anybody in particular.  I apologize to you for 
my remarks:  I did not mean to attack you and I am sorry it came across that 
way.  It was a reply to Joseph Crowell's remarks (his "side note," really) that 
relations are "a nightmare to work with within iD and one of the main reasons 
people switch to another editor."  I was concurring with Joseph and wanted to 
strengthen that with my added "positive" by suggesting another editor (JOSM), 
which I consider superior for editing relations (especially compared to iD).

Using iD, I am comfortable editing only a tag or two on a relation, not 
memberships, as I find the latter both presented and manipulation of elements s 
very confusing, even as I recognize that using iD, this is "technically 
possible."  However, as I edit many relations (often large ones, like long 
route=railway or route=bicycle+network=ncn routes), I have also seen many such 
relations "spoiled" by human editors using the software editor iD.  I could be 
wrong here, but I attribute this to iD's particular (peculiar?) method of 
editing relation elements, and compare it to JOSM's, which I find very 
comfortable and intuitive:  JOSM's relation editor is a "modeless" dialog 
window ([1], pioneered by macOS in the early 1980s and remaining to this day in 
many visually-oriented operating systems) that contains two "panes" of relation 
element memberships, buttons to manipulate these, the ability to select from 
the map and otherwise move elements between the map and the relation's 
elements, even a "sort" button (to properly align adjacent elements, like in 
route relations or multipolygons).

Thank you for asking about JOSM and learning it:  there distinctly IS a 
learning curve!  Many people find the initial hurdle of installing a Java 
run-time environment a struggle, but this has been largely "double-click 
automated" for the most part for most popular operating systems.

There is a YouTube video "JOSM Open Street Map Editor for Beginners" [2] but 
better (more comprehensive) is "Learn OSM's" own "course" on this:  "Learn OSM 
step-by-step" [3] which is JOSM-oriented.  Its section on Relations is pretty 
good, in my opinion.  Recall [4] that there are MANY kinds of relations, like 
multipolygon, boundary, route, public_transport...and they are all different in 
their tagging, but they share the similarity of using the relation as a data 
type in OSM.  OSM only has three data types:  nodes, ways and relations, each 
of which can and should be tagged properly.  Many (human) editors in OSM get 
"the basics" of editing nodes, ways and their tags for many common mapping 
tasks, reaching an elementary level (I hesitate to say "beginner") but 
relations are definitely an "intermediate" level of complexity by comparison, 
if not advanced for some people.  The chosen editor really makes a difference 
at how facile one becomes with editing relations.

I'm not looking to "critique" work in OSM, though if somebody does make a 
mistake, and then repeats it (or acts obtuse about learning correct 
methodologies) I will offer them some gentle coaching — if they'll take it.

There are no n00b questions, only n00b answers.  Please, feel free to ask me 
(via one-to-one email, if you like) if you have further questions:  I have been 
told I am passionate, listening, enthusiastic and helpful in my responses about 
OSM (though very rarely, some friction causes a bit of heat, instead of light). 
 I hope I have offered you worthy answers here.

Steve All
Santa Cruz, California, USA


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialog_box#Modeless
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yk8b8SB81o
[3] https://learnosm.org/en/josm/start-josm/
[4] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Types_of_relation

> On May 29, 2023, at 6:24 PM, Josh Marshall  wrote:
> 
> Hey stevea, was this warning on relations due to any particular remark in 
> this thread? ... I feel attacked! ;)  given I've used iD to edit relations 
> quite a bit: I don't usually edit them, but more just adding new ones. Except 
> for re-adding ways when they got deleted from a route, when others changed 
> them. I also wouldn't dream of touching the coastline. :) I've always tried 
> to be very careful to not break anything, but now I'm concerned I've 
> inadvertently done that. (Username is `neomanic` if you want to critique my 
> work.)
> 
> I realise this is a bit of a n00b question, but could you possibly provide 
> some pointers to the better _current_ documentation and resources on 
> understanding relations well and editing in JOSM? Now that OSM has been 
> around for a while, I find it overwhelming to sort through and figure out 
> what is current best practice, and so I've put off approaching learning more 
> with a structured approach.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> On Mon, 29 May 2023 at 12:40, stevea  wrote:
> I've said all this before:  while editing relations in 

Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Josh Marshall]

Hey stevea, was this warning on relations due to any particular remark in
this thread? ... I feel attacked! ;)  given I've used iD to edit relations
quite a bit: I don't usually edit them, but more just adding new ones.
Except for re-adding ways when they got deleted from a route, when
others changed them. I also wouldn't dream of touching the coastline. :)
I've always tried to be very careful to not break anything, but now I'm
concerned I've inadvertently done that. (Username is `neomanic` if you want
to critique my work.)

I realise this is a bit of a n00b question, but could you possibly provide
some pointers to the better _current_ documentation and resources on
understanding relations well and editing in JOSM? Now that OSM has been
around for a while, I find it overwhelming to sort through and figure out
what is current best practice, and so I've put off approaching learning
more with a structured approach.

Thanks.

On Mon, 29 May 2023 at 12:40, stevea  wrote:

> I've said all this before:  while editing relations in iD is technically
> possible, it is tedious and difficult in the opinion of many.  A great many
> existing relations have also been broken by people using iD (I can't count
> how many I have personally experienced).  I find editing relations with iD
> to also be a "nightmare," but I don't want to so viciously disparage iD,
> even as I do want to discourage others from using it as a reliable,
> suitable, comfortable, intuitive relation editor.  (It is not).
>
> That said, if you are going to edit relations (from this thread:  streams,
> waterways, coastlines, islands...but also many other more-sophisticated and
> complex-structured data) within OSM, please do so using an editor that
> strongly supports good relation editing.  I use JOSM and recommend it,
> though I realize that JOSM is not everybody's cup of tea, either.
>
> Think:  if you know nodes, ways and tags, but not relations, yet you want
> to edit data properly entered into OSM using relations (and which should
> ONLY be entered into OSM using relations), you must be able to edit
> relations.  And do so well, without more than the occasional minor error.
> OSM is not your sandbox for practice learning how to edit relations
> (poorly), though you are likely to do exactly that (in my opinion) using
> the iD editor to edit relations.  The map does not benefit by sloppy
> relations being entered by iD (or any editor).
>
> Learn the basics of OSM.  Next, learn "about" relations (their structure,
> conventions, the differing flavors of them...).  THEN learn HOW to edit
> relations using an editor that supports editing relations well, such as
> JOSM.  Though JOSM has a learning curve, it is worth it.  I do not consider
> iD to be a strong editor for relations, these are my opinions.  Thank you
> for reading.
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Warin]

On 29/5/23 08:11, Joseph Crowell via Talk-au wrote:


Regular area shapes have a node limit that is quickly reached when 
mapping rivers/lakes.



As a guide:

2,000 nodes to a way, 300 members to a relation...

Islands/islelets are also not properly cut out when they are created 
within a water body.


The solution to both of these issues is creating a multipolygon with 
relations.


On a side note, this is a nightmare to work with within iD and one of 
the main reasons people switch to another editor.


Regards,

Joseph Crowell

*Software Development Manager**,*

*Computerlink Logo***

**

*Unit 24 115 Dollis Street Rocklea Qld 4106.
T: +61 7  3211 5662  | F: +61 7 3211 5663*

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On 26/05/2023 5:42 pm, Tom Brennan wrote:

On 26/05/2023 1:54 pm, Josh Marshall wrote:
> But I’ve also made relations for all of our local streams and creeks;
> go to the Newcastle area and search for Ironbark or Cottage Creek for
>  instance… it used to just return a single hit on one small section
> for almost every creek. My interest here is because much of the area
> was uninhabitable swamp until there was a huge effort to put in some
> monster drains in the 1890s. And yet it will still occasionally flood
> and people complain about council not doing anyway…

Just asking out of interest - what's the reason for using relations? 
Or is it specifically for the search that you mentioned?


> Do note, the DCS map can be quite wrong in places… I’m pretty sure a
> lot of it was done once and then never updated.

Yes, I don't like the current DCS stream layer - streams going up and 
over ridges in some places!


I understand that DCS is in the process of bringing the stream data 
up to date post the LIDAR scans of all of NSW. But it sounds like it 
is bogged down in some non-technical issues (ie nothing related to 
the actual dataset). So no idea when it will be released!


I'd be interested if anyone knows anything definite about the data - 
my info is hearsay.


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com


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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[stevea]

I've said all this before:  while editing relations in iD is technically 
possible, it is tedious and difficult in the opinion of many.  A great many 
existing relations have also been broken by people using iD (I can't count how 
many I have personally experienced).  I find editing relations with iD to also 
be a "nightmare," but I don't want to so viciously disparage iD, even as I do 
want to discourage others from using it as a reliable, suitable, comfortable, 
intuitive relation editor.  (It is not).

That said, if you are going to edit relations (from this thread:  streams, 
waterways, coastlines, islands...but also many other more-sophisticated and 
complex-structured data) within OSM, please do so using an editor that strongly 
supports good relation editing.  I use JOSM and recommend it, though I realize 
that JOSM is not everybody's cup of tea, either.

Think:  if you know nodes, ways and tags, but not relations, yet you want to 
edit data properly entered into OSM using relations (and which should ONLY be 
entered into OSM using relations), you must be able to edit relations.  And do 
so well, without more than the occasional minor error.  OSM is not your sandbox 
for practice learning how to edit relations (poorly), though you are likely to 
do exactly that (in my opinion) using the iD editor to edit relations.  The map 
does not benefit by sloppy relations being entered by iD (or any editor).

Learn the basics of OSM.  Next, learn "about" relations (their structure, 
conventions, the differing flavors of them...).  THEN learn HOW to edit 
relations using an editor that supports editing relations well, such as JOSM.  
Though JOSM has a learning curve, it is worth it.  I do not consider iD to be a 
strong editor for relations, these are my opinions.  Thank you for reading.
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Joseph Crowell via Talk-au]

Regular area shapes have a node limit that is quickly reached when 
mapping rivers/lakes.


Islands/islelets are also not properly cut out when they are created 
within a water body.


The solution to both of these issues is creating a multipolygon with 
relations.


On a side note, this is a nightmare to work with within iD and one of 
the main reasons people switch to another editor.


Regards,

Joseph Crowell

*Software Development Manager**,*

*Computerlink Logo***

**

*Unit 24 115 Dollis Street Rocklea Qld 4106.
T: +61 7  3211 5662  | F: +61 7 3211 5663*

*/email: /**/_supp...@computerlink.com.au_/**//*

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this message in error please notify Computerlink Pty Ltd immediately by 
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re-dissemination are strictly prohibited without the express prior 
consent of Computerlink Pty Ltd.


Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the 
author and do not necessarily represent those of Computerlink Pty Ltd 
except where an authorised sender specifically states them to be the 
views of Computerlink Pty Ltd.


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On 26/05/2023 5:42 pm, Tom Brennan wrote:

On 26/05/2023 1:54 pm, Josh Marshall wrote:
> But I’ve also made relations for all of our local streams and creeks;
> go to the Newcastle area and search for Ironbark or Cottage Creek for
>  instance… it used to just return a single hit on one small section
> for almost every creek. My interest here is because much of the area
> was uninhabitable swamp until there was a huge effort to put in some
> monster drains in the 1890s. And yet it will still occasionally flood
> and people complain about council not doing anyway…

Just asking out of interest - what's the reason for using relations? 
Or is it specifically for the search that you mentioned?


> Do note, the DCS map can be quite wrong in places… I’m pretty sure a
> lot of it was done once and then never updated.

Yes, I don't like the current DCS stream layer - streams going up and 
over ridges in some places!


I understand that DCS is in the process of bringing the stream data up 
to date post the LIDAR scans of all of NSW. But it sounds like it is 
bogged down in some non-technical issues (ie nothing related to the 
actual dataset). So no idea when it will be released!


I'd be interested if anyone knows anything definite about the data - 
my info is hearsay.


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com


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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Tom Brennan]

My main area of interest from a stream point of view is the Hawkesbury 
Catchment, outside the Sydney suburban boundaries.


I haven't been involved in any imports so you'll have to excuse my 
ignorance.


Could the dataset be split into say urban/non-urban and the non-urban 
parts imported? Or do partial imports just create more work? What sort 
of sanity checks need to be carried out?


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

On 27/05/2023 11:49 am, Andrew Davidson wrote:

On 27/5/23 08:39, nwastra nwastra wrote:
I should add that I have only used the Surface Hydrology Lines from 
GeoScience Aust dataset for Qld catchments and as the data is drawn 
for many different sources across the country the perenniality may be 
not always be included.


I admit I've been too lazy to publish the stuff I'd already done with 
the GA dataset. Rather than making people do it all again I've finally 
got round to putting it on GitHub https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams


I have already imported in the named streams in NSW except for the area 
around Sydney. Mostly, again, due to laziness. As already pointed out 
the data all needs to be sanity checked against what's on the ground and 
that's really hard when it's under a city.


The data is organised by AWRC catchment, so for Sydney you are looking at:

https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams/blob/main/Basin_II/II12.osm.gz

which is the Hawkesbury River and

https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams/blob/main/Basin_II/II13.osm.gz

which is Sydney Coast-Georges River

You can use overpass turbo to see what is already mapped:

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vpu (Hawkesbury River)
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vpv (Sydney Coast-Georges River)


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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Tom Brennan]

I hadn't seen that page until Andrew Davidson mentioned it earlier in 
the thread.


But the NSW Water Theme data falls under the DCS Foundational Spatial 
Data, which is listed as having a waiver, and thus usable...


[And I probably should have been more specific with the wording - I knew 
that CC BY 4 is not generally usable by itself. But was aware that many 
datasets for NSW have waivers!]


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

On 27/05/2023 5:06 pm, Warin wrote:


On 26/5/23 14:51, Tom Brennan wrote:

DCS Base and Topo don't distinguish between perennial and non-perennial

That information is available in the NSW Water Theme data eg:
https://portal.spatial.nsw.gov.au/portal/home/item.html?id=7b0e959effd749c788d304a4179abf8a

That data is licensed under CC BY 4, which I think we have permission 
to use. (I haven't used it, but if allowed, it would make sense rather 
than tracing individual lines).



CC by 4 by it self is not usable for OSM...

With an OSM waiver .. it is usable.

If the data set to be used is listed as having a waiver here 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Sources#New_South_Wales, then it is usable.



(Doting i's and crossing t's so others won't be mislead.)



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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Andy Mabbett]

On Fri, 26 May 2023 at 08:42, Tom Brennan  wrote:

> what's the reason for using relations? Or
> is it specifically for the search that you mentioned?

A relation can also be linked 1:1 with an item for the waterway in
Wikidata, and with the wider web of linked data.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Warin]

On 27/5/23 16:48, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:




On Sat, 27 May 2023 at 16:34, Tom Brennan  wrote:


But while useful, the question is really whether a full stream
import is
worthwhile.


I would say yes (if it's not too much effort required to do so?)

Thanks

Graeme



I too would 'like' the data.

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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Warin]

On 26/5/23 14:51, Tom Brennan wrote:

DCS Base and Topo don't distinguish between perennial and non-perennial

That information is available in the NSW Water Theme data eg:
https://portal.spatial.nsw.gov.au/portal/home/item.html?id=7b0e959effd749c788d304a4179abf8a 



That data is licensed under CC BY 4, which I think we have permission 
to use. (I haven't used it, but if allowed, it would make sense rather 
than tracing individual lines).



CC by 4 by it self is not usable for OSM...

With an OSM waiver .. it is usable.

If the data set to be used is listed as having a waiver here 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Sources#New_South_Wales, 
then it is usable.



(Doting i's and crossing t's so others won't be mislead.)



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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 27 May 2023 at 16:34, Tom Brennan  wrote:

>
> But while useful, the question is really whether a full stream import is
> worthwhile.
>

I would say yes (if it's not too much effort required to do so?)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Tom Brennan]

On 26/05/2023 2:10 pm, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au wrote:
> I also find streams useful to indicate the surrounding ground is
> downhill towards them. Being at the bottom of a valley it is also
> fairly obvious when you encounter one in person.
>
> They are often hard to map from aerial imagery as they may hidden by
> tree cover. This is one reason why many are missing from OSM. Adding
> more of them would be good.

In NSW at least, there are options to map from other than aerial imagery 
(various DCS sources).


There's also the option to generate them from the DEM, which in my 
experience is more accurate 95%+ of the time.


But while useful, the question is really whether a full stream import is 
worthwhile.


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Andrew Davidson]

On 27/5/23 08:39, nwastra nwastra wrote:

I should add that I have only used the Surface Hydrology Lines from GeoScience 
Aust dataset for Qld catchments and as the data is drawn for many different 
sources across the country the perenniality may be not always be included.


I admit I've been too lazy to publish the stuff I'd already done with 
the GA dataset. Rather than making people do it all again I've finally 
got round to putting it on GitHub https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams


I have already imported in the named streams in NSW except for the area 
around Sydney. Mostly, again, due to laziness. As already pointed out 
the data all needs to be sanity checked against what's on the ground and 
that's really hard when it's under a city.


The data is organised by AWRC catchment, so for Sydney you are looking at:

https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams/blob/main/Basin_II/II12.osm.gz

which is the Hawkesbury River and

https://github.com/FrakGart/ga_streams/blob/main/Basin_II/II13.osm.gz

which is Sydney Coast-Georges River

You can use overpass turbo to see what is already mapped:

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vpu (Hawkesbury River)
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1vpv (Sydney Coast-Georges River)


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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[nwastra nwastra]

I should add that I have only used the Surface Hydrology Lines from GeoScience 
Aust dataset for Qld catchments and as the data is drawn for many different 
sources across the country the perenniality may be not always be included. 

> On 26 May 2023, at 4:39 pm, nwastra  wrote:
> 
> The Surface Hydrology Lines covering all of Australia from GeoScience Aust is 
> available for use in osm and has a perenniality column
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Data_Sources
> 
>> 
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Josh Marshall]

On 26/05/2023 1:54 pm, Josh Marshall wrote:> But I’ve also made relations for all of our local streams and creeks;> go to the Newcastle area and search for Ironbark or Cottage Creek for>  instance… it used to just return a single hit on one small section> for almost every creek. My interest here is because much of the area> was uninhabitable swamp until there was a huge effort to put in some> monster drains in the 1890s. And yet it will still occasionally flood> and people complain about council not doing anyway…Just asking out of interest - what's the reason for using relations? Or is it specifically for the search that you mentioned?It’s recommended. From https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway“If a waterway is named from its source to its destination, it's strongly suggested that all of its ways be placed in a waterway relation. Doing this allows Nominatim to group the ways together and return exactly one named result per named waterway that exists in OpenStreetMap.”___
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Tom Brennan]

On 26/05/2023 1:54 pm, Josh Marshall wrote:
> But I’ve also made relations for all of our local streams and creeks;
> go to the Newcastle area and search for Ironbark or Cottage Creek for
>  instance… it used to just return a single hit on one small section
> for almost every creek. My interest here is because much of the area
> was uninhabitable swamp until there was a huge effort to put in some
> monster drains in the 1890s. And yet it will still occasionally flood
> and people complain about council not doing anyway…

Just asking out of interest - what's the reason for using relations? Or 
is it specifically for the search that you mentioned?


> Do note, the DCS map can be quite wrong in places… I’m pretty sure a
> lot of it was done once and then never updated.

Yes, I don't like the current DCS stream layer - streams going up and 
over ridges in some places!


I understand that DCS is in the process of bringing the stream data up 
to date post the LIDAR scans of all of NSW. But it sounds like it is 
bogged down in some non-technical issues (ie nothing related to the 
actual dataset). So no idea when it will be released!


I'd be interested if anyone knows anything definite about the data - my 
info is hearsay.


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com


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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Tom Brennan]

On 26/05/2023 4:39 pm, nwastra wrote:
> The Surface Hydrology Lines covering all of Australia from GeoScience
> Aust is available for use in osm and has a perenniality column
> Australian Data Sources
> 

Thanks, handy to know.

That data seems identical to the DCS (LPI) data for NSW, though it's 
missing the relevance column.


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com


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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[nwastra]

The Surface Hydrology Lines covering all of Australia from GeoScience Aust is available for use in osm and has a perenniality columnAustralian Data Sourceswiki.openstreetmap.orgOn 26 May 2023, at 2:57 pm, Tom Brennan  wrote:DCS Base and Topo don't distinguish between perennial and non-perennialThat information is available in the NSW Water Theme data eg:https://portal.spatial.nsw.gov.au/portal/home/item.html?id=7b0e959effd749c788d304a4179abf8aThat data is licensed under CC BY 4, which I think we have permission to use. (I haven't used it, but if allowed, it would make sense rather than tracing individual lines).Though I'd be a bit dubious about some of the things that are classified perennial vs non-perennial. It looks algorithmic, and not entirely internally consistent! Pretty sure I could write a better algorithm.cheersTomCanyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoningBushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.comOn 26/05/2023 7:56 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:On Thu, 25 May 2023 at 22:26, Tom Brennan > wrote:    I'm looking at adding missing stream data in national parks around    Sydney.    However, how much value is there in bringing in all of the stream data    in say the DCS Base Map vs just the named streams?    I can see for example, the value in bringing in named streams. But    there    are huge numbers of smaller (unnamed) streams.It's not a bad idea, as it would let anybody needing water in the bush, know that there's a creek over there, & also let you know that if you go this way, you may get wet feet! :-)But, do DCS Base & Topo differentiate between permanent & intermittent creeks?ThanksGraeme___Talk-au mailing listTalk-au@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au___
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Tom Brennan]

DCS Base and Topo don't distinguish between perennial and non-perennial

That information is available in the NSW Water Theme data eg:
https://portal.spatial.nsw.gov.au/portal/home/item.html?id=7b0e959effd749c788d304a4179abf8a

That data is licensed under CC BY 4, which I think we have permission to 
use. (I haven't used it, but if allowed, it would make sense rather than 
tracing individual lines).


Though I'd be a bit dubious about some of the things that are classified 
perennial vs non-perennial. It looks algorithmic, and not entirely 
internally consistent! Pretty sure I could write a better algorithm.


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

On 26/05/2023 7:56 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:




On Thu, 25 May 2023 at 22:26, Tom Brennan > wrote:


I'm looking at adding missing stream data in national parks around
Sydney.

However, how much value is there in bringing in all of the stream data
in say the DCS Base Map vs just the named streams?

I can see for example, the value in bringing in named streams. But
there
are huge numbers of smaller (unnamed) streams.


It's not a bad idea, as it would let anybody needing water in the bush, 
know that there's a creek over there, & also let you know that if you go 
this way, you may get wet feet! :-)


But, do DCS Base & Topo differentiate between permanent & intermittent 
creeks?


Thanks

Graeme



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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Kim Oldfield via Talk-au]

Hi,

I also find streams useful to indicate the surrounding ground is 
downhill towards them. Being at the bottom of a valley it is also fairly 
obvious when you encounter one in person.


They are often hard to map from aerial imagery as they may hidden by 
tree cover. This is one reason why many are missing from OSM. Adding 
more of them would be good.


Regards,
Kim

On 26/5/23 13:54, Josh Marshall wrote:
I map streams on the regular. Given most of what I map is bike + 
running single-track, streams are helpful as a clue to the local 
topography.


But I’ve also made relations for all of our local streams and creeks; 
go to the Newcastle area and search for Ironbark or Cottage Creek for 
instance… it used to just return a single hit on one small section for 
almost every creek. My interest here is because much of the area was 
uninhabitable swamp until there was a huge effort to put in some 
monster drains in the 1890s. And yet it will still occasionally flood 
and people complain about council not doing anyway…


Do note, the DCS map can be quite wrong in places… I’m pretty sure a 
lot of it was done once and then never updated.


Arguably most streams in Australia are intermittent, I don’t think the 
definition is totally locked down, but when they are isolated sections 
of standing water in between rain, that is intermittent in my mind.



On 26 May 2023, at 8:00 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
 wrote:






On Thu, 25 May 2023 at 22:26, Tom Brennan  wrote:

I'm looking at adding missing stream data in national parks
around Sydney.

However, how much value is there in bringing in all of the stream
data
in say the DCS Base Map vs just the named streams?

I can see for example, the value in bringing in named streams.
But there
are huge numbers of smaller (unnamed) streams.


It's not a bad idea, as it would let anybody needing water in the 
bush, know that there's a creek over there, & also let you know that 
if you go this way, you may get wet feet! :-)


But, do DCS Base & Topo differentiate between permanent & 
intermittent creeks?


Thanks

Graeme

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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Josh Marshall]

I map streams on the regular. Given most of what I map is bike + running single-track, streams are helpful as a clue to the local topography. But I’ve also made relations for all of our local streams and creeks; go to the Newcastle area and search for Ironbark or Cottage Creek for instance… it used to just return a single hit on one small section for almost every creek. My interest here is because much of the area was uninhabitable swamp until there was a huge effort to put in some monster drains in the 1890s. And yet it will still occasionally flood and people complain about council not doing anyway…Do note, the DCS map can be quite wrong in places… I’m pretty sure a lot of it was done once and then never updated.Arguably most streams in Australia are intermittent, I don’t think the definition is totally locked down, but when they are isolated sections of standing water in between rain, that is intermittent in my mind.  On 26 May 2023, at 8:00 am, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:On Thu, 25 May 2023 at 22:26, Tom Brennan  wrote:I'm looking at adding missing stream data in national parks around Sydney.

However, how much value is there in bringing in all of the stream data 
in say the DCS Base Map vs just the named streams?

I can see for example, the value in bringing in named streams. But there 
are huge numbers of smaller (unnamed) streams.It's not a bad idea, as it would let anybody needing water in the bush, know that there's a creek over there, & also let you know that if you go this way, you may get wet feet! :-)But, do DCS Base & Topo differentiate between permanent & intermittent creeks?ThanksGraeme
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Re: [talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 25 May 2023 at 22:26, Tom Brennan  wrote:

> I'm looking at adding missing stream data in national parks around Sydney.
>
> However, how much value is there in bringing in all of the stream data
> in say the DCS Base Map vs just the named streams?
>
> I can see for example, the value in bringing in named streams. But there
> are huge numbers of smaller (unnamed) streams.
>

It's not a bad idea, as it would let anybody needing water in the bush,
know that there's a creek over there, & also let you know that if you go
this way, you may get wet feet! :-)

But, do DCS Base & Topo differentiate between permanent & intermittent
creeks?

Thanks

Graeme
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[talk-au] Putting streams into OSM

[Tom Brennan]

I'm looking at adding missing stream data in national parks around Sydney.

However, how much value is there in bringing in all of the stream data 
in say the DCS Base Map vs just the named streams?


I can see for example, the value in bringing in named streams. But there 
are huge numbers of smaller (unnamed) streams.


I have a follow up question about how best to input stream data, but 
that probably depends on the views to the question above.


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

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