Re: [talk-au] topic A: the platform itself
On Friday, 20 September 2019 5:03:10 PM AEST David Wales wrote: > If the number of talk-au emails reaches overwhelming levels, it might be > necessary to investigate other solutions. However, I don't think we have > reached that point yet. In that case, a digest option is good. I get a list of posts, any 1 of which, or all, can be individually looked at as needed. -- Regards Simon Slater Registered Linux User #463789 @ http://linuxcounter.net ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] topic A: the platform itself
Hello, I think it is important to be precise in the language we use. Therefore I'd like to point out that this is a mailing list and not a forum. If you find the UI poor then this likely due to the way you use the mailing list. Browsing the archives on the list website is not how I participate on current topics. I use mostly my phone's email client. My email client does thread topics together which allows to follow or skip certain topics. Just thought I throw this in because when people speak of a forum I don't think of this mailing list and forum UI has in my view no relevance to mailing list UI. Cheers, Seb -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. On 20 September 2019 5:25:18 pm AEST, Edoardo Neerhut wrote: >Thanks for bringing this up Herbert. > >*Similar sentiments* >This has actually been bothering me the last few weeks as I started to >realise how much of my day is spent reading through talklists that do >not >have relevance to me or that I do not have time to respond to. For >those of >us subscribed to multiple talklists, it becomes a very time consuming >and >inefficient communication method. > >The problem is that you need to read every single one in case you miss >something relevant. There are lot of good conversations taking place >and I >wish I had time to engage more, but I need to be selective. > >*The platform* >I like the idea of a forum which can be categorised and allow the >viewer to >make quicker decisions about which topics that would like to engage >with. >Whether that is the OpenStreetMap forum or something else doesn't >bother >me. Although the OpenStreetMap forum would make sense so that people >can >find it easily. > >Slack is very convenient, but it is not good for important discussions >because the messages get archived unless you sign up to a cost >prohibitive >plan which our community would not be able to afford. > >*Setting a standard* >I am not sure any of this can be dictated, but it is a good discussion >to >have and I would be interested to see how the rest of the community >feels. >Of course asking here is inherently going to target those already using >the >talklists, so I will bring this up in other places as well. > >Overall I support the interest to discuss this on a more efficient, >intuitive platform. > >On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 09:10, David Wales >wrote: > >> I am a member of some international OSM Slack channels. >> >> However, because it requires a whole different app (which I only have >> space for on my computer), I only check it monthly at best. >> >> On the other hand, I read every talk-au message within a few days of >> original posting, because they all arrive in my email inbox on my >phone. >> >> If the number of talk-au emails reaches overwhelming levels, it might >be >> necessary to investigate other solutions. However, I don't think we >have >> reached that point yet. >> >> If we ever did explore alternatives, I would prefer an open platform, >> which we can host ourselves, rather than Slack or some other >proprietary >> system. >> >> Regards, >> David >> >> On 20 September 2019 4:31:44 pm AEST, Frederik Ramm > >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> On 9/20/19 03:14, Herbert.Remi via Talk-au wrote: >>> I will post several concerns and information on several issues, but >the first is this platform itself. >>> >>> You call this platform a "forum" which is ok in the abstract sense, >but >>> note that there is actually an Australia forum in addition to this >>> Australia mailing list >>> (https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=24). The forum >>> provides a slightly different user experience but is used less. >>> >>> In other countries, people have set up Slack channels or Facebook >groups >>> or even more esoteric channels of communication, in addition of or >as a >>> replacement for mailing lists - browse >>> https://github.com/osmlab/osm-community-index if you want to get an >idea. >>> >>> There's no strict rule about where the OSM community should discuss >>> their issues, however media that requires prior registration with a >>> third-party entity - like Slack or Facebook - are sometimes frowned >upon >>> as they give control over who can participate to that third party >and >>> might require the participant to agree to wide-ranging exploitation >of >>> their personal data by a commercial entity. >>> >>> In Germany where I hail from, the forum and the mailing list are >used by >>> about the same number of (but largely different) people, and since >the >>> total number of contributors is large enough to guarantee lively >>> discussion on both, that's totally fine. Germany also has mailing >lists >>> for individual states but they are used very little, and even >>> state-specific issues would often be discussed on the nationwide >list to >>> ensure they get enough attention. >>> >>> Speaking very generally, OSM has achieved the success it has with a >>> "just do it" attitude: Instead of saying
Re: [talk-au] topic A: the platform itself
Please allow me to share some experiences of moving to another platform we had in our community. In Belgium we moved from the mailing list to Matrix/Riot . Most active participants in the community made the move, but in the process we lost some people Matrix/Riot is good for short questions, but is IMHO very bad for longer discussions. We have 1 or 2 people that insist on using the forum, so some things have to be repeated there. When I look at the neighbouring countries, it notice that it is difficult to move people from one platform to another. Some stick with mail, some with the forum, etc. It will probably be hard to convince people to use a new platform and they will be the first to pinpoint any weaknesses in the new platform and either go back to the old platform or "leave" the community. Just my 2 cents regards m On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:27 AM Edoardo Neerhut wrote: > > Thanks for bringing this up Herbert. > > Similar sentiments > This has actually been bothering me the last few weeks as I started to > realise how much of my day is spent reading through talklists that do not > have relevance to me or that I do not have time to respond to. For those of > us subscribed to multiple talklists, it becomes a very time consuming and > inefficient communication method. > > The problem is that you need to read every single one in case you miss > something relevant. There are lot of good conversations taking place and I > wish I had time to engage more, but I need to be selective. > > The platform > I like the idea of a forum which can be categorised and allow the viewer to > make quicker decisions about which topics that would like to engage with. > Whether that is the OpenStreetMap forum or something else doesn't bother me. > Although the OpenStreetMap forum would make sense so that people can find it > easily. > > Slack is very convenient, but it is not good for important discussions > because the messages get archived unless you sign up to a cost prohibitive > plan which our community would not be able to afford. > > Setting a standard > I am not sure any of this can be dictated, but it is a good discussion to > have and I would be interested to see how the rest of the community feels. Of > course asking here is inherently going to target those already using the > talklists, so I will bring this up in other places as well. > > Overall I support the interest to discuss this on a more efficient, intuitive > platform. > > On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 09:10, David Wales wrote: >> >> I am a member of some international OSM Slack channels. >> >> However, because it requires a whole different app (which I only have space >> for on my computer), I only check it monthly at best. >> >> On the other hand, I read every talk-au message within a few days of >> original posting, because they all arrive in my email inbox on my phone. >> >> If the number of talk-au emails reaches overwhelming levels, it might be >> necessary to investigate other solutions. However, I don't think we have >> reached that point yet. >> >> If we ever did explore alternatives, I would prefer an open platform, which >> we can host ourselves, rather than Slack or some other proprietary system. >> >> Regards, >> David >> >> On 20 September 2019 4:31:44 pm AEST, Frederik Ramm >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> On 9/20/19 03:14, Herbert.Remi via Talk-au wrote: I will post several concerns and information on several issues, but the first is this platform itself. >>> >>> >>> You call this platform a "forum" which is ok in the abstract sense, but >>> note that there is actually an Australia forum in addition to this >>> Australia mailing list >>> (https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=24). The forum >>> provides a slightly different user experience but is used less. >>> >>> In other countries, people have set up Slack channels or Facebook groups >>> or even more esoteric channels of communication, in addition of or as a >>> replacement for mailing lists - browse >>> https://github.com/osmlab/osm-community-index if you want to get an idea. >>> >>> There's no strict rule about where the OSM community should discuss >>> their issues, however media that requires prior registration with a >>> third-party entity - like Slack or Facebook - are sometimes frowned upon >>> as they give control over who can participate to that third party and >>> might require the participant to agree to wide-ranging exploitation of >>> their personal data by a commercial entity. >>> >>> In Germany where I hail from, the forum and the mailing list are used by >>> about the same number of (but largely different) people, and since the >>> total number of contributors is large enough to guarantee lively >>> discussion on both, that's totally fine. Germany also has mailing lists >>> for individual states but they are used very little, and even >>> state-specific issues would often be discussed on the nationwide list to >>> ensure they
Re: [talk-au] topic A: the platform itself
Thanks for bringing this up Herbert. *Similar sentiments* This has actually been bothering me the last few weeks as I started to realise how much of my day is spent reading through talklists that do not have relevance to me or that I do not have time to respond to. For those of us subscribed to multiple talklists, it becomes a very time consuming and inefficient communication method. The problem is that you need to read every single one in case you miss something relevant. There are lot of good conversations taking place and I wish I had time to engage more, but I need to be selective. *The platform* I like the idea of a forum which can be categorised and allow the viewer to make quicker decisions about which topics that would like to engage with. Whether that is the OpenStreetMap forum or something else doesn't bother me. Although the OpenStreetMap forum would make sense so that people can find it easily. Slack is very convenient, but it is not good for important discussions because the messages get archived unless you sign up to a cost prohibitive plan which our community would not be able to afford. *Setting a standard* I am not sure any of this can be dictated, but it is a good discussion to have and I would be interested to see how the rest of the community feels. Of course asking here is inherently going to target those already using the talklists, so I will bring this up in other places as well. Overall I support the interest to discuss this on a more efficient, intuitive platform. On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 09:10, David Wales wrote: > I am a member of some international OSM Slack channels. > > However, because it requires a whole different app (which I only have > space for on my computer), I only check it monthly at best. > > On the other hand, I read every talk-au message within a few days of > original posting, because they all arrive in my email inbox on my phone. > > If the number of talk-au emails reaches overwhelming levels, it might be > necessary to investigate other solutions. However, I don't think we have > reached that point yet. > > If we ever did explore alternatives, I would prefer an open platform, > which we can host ourselves, rather than Slack or some other proprietary > system. > > Regards, > David > > On 20 September 2019 4:31:44 pm AEST, Frederik Ramm > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> On 9/20/19 03:14, Herbert.Remi via Talk-au wrote: >> >>> I will post several concerns and information on several issues, but the >>> first is this platform itself. >>> >> >> You call this platform a "forum" which is ok in the abstract sense, but >> note that there is actually an Australia forum in addition to this >> Australia mailing list >> (https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=24). The forum >> provides a slightly different user experience but is used less. >> >> In other countries, people have set up Slack channels or Facebook groups >> or even more esoteric channels of communication, in addition of or as a >> replacement for mailing lists - browse >> https://github.com/osmlab/osm-community-index if you want to get an idea. >> >> There's no strict rule about where the OSM community should discuss >> their issues, however media that requires prior registration with a >> third-party entity - like Slack or Facebook - are sometimes frowned upon >> as they give control over who can participate to that third party and >> might require the participant to agree to wide-ranging exploitation of >> their personal data by a commercial entity. >> >> In Germany where I hail from, the forum and the mailing list are used by >> about the same number of (but largely different) people, and since the >> total number of contributors is large enough to guarantee lively >> discussion on both, that's totally fine. Germany also has mailing lists >> for individual states but they are used very little, and even >> state-specific issues would often be discussed on the nationwide list to >> ensure they get enough attention. >> >> Speaking very generally, OSM has achieved the success it has with a >> "just do it" attitude: Instead of saying, 15 years ago, "BEFORE we >> start, let's come up with a good data scheme and a feature catalogue", >> people said "let's just start and then fix things as we go along". >> >> My recommendation would be to just stat discussing whatever needs >> discussing on the talk-au mailing list and branch out as the need >> arises. If something is worth discussing then a non-ideal UI should not >> be the blocker, and if it is, then maybe the issue is not so important. >> >> Bye >> Frederik >> >> ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] topic A: the platform itself
I am a member of some international OSM Slack channels. However, because it requires a whole different app (which I only have space for on my computer), I only check it monthly at best. On the other hand, I read every talk-au message within a few days of original posting, because they all arrive in my email inbox on my phone. If the number of talk-au emails reaches overwhelming levels, it might be necessary to investigate other solutions. However, I don't think we have reached that point yet. If we ever did explore alternatives, I would prefer an open platform, which we can host ourselves, rather than Slack or some other proprietary system. Regards, David On 20 September 2019 4:31:44 pm AEST, Frederik Ramm wrote: >Hi, > >On 9/20/19 03:14, Herbert.Remi via Talk-au wrote: >> I will post several concerns and information on several issues, but >the >> first is this platform itself. > >You call this platform a "forum" which is ok in the abstract sense, but >note that there is actually an Australia forum in addition to this >Australia mailing list >(https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=24). The forum >provides a slightly different user experience but is used less. > >In other countries, people have set up Slack channels or Facebook >groups >or even more esoteric channels of communication, in addition of or as a >replacement for mailing lists - browse >https://github.com/osmlab/osm-community-index if you want to get an >idea. > >There's no strict rule about where the OSM community should discuss >their issues, however media that requires prior registration with a >third-party entity - like Slack or Facebook - are sometimes frowned >upon >as they give control over who can participate to that third party and >might require the participant to agree to wide-ranging exploitation of >their personal data by a commercial entity. > >In Germany where I hail from, the forum and the mailing list are used >by >about the same number of (but largely different) people, and since the >total number of contributors is large enough to guarantee lively >discussion on both, that's totally fine. Germany also has mailing lists >for individual states but they are used very little, and even >state-specific issues would often be discussed on the nationwide list >to >ensure they get enough attention. > >Speaking very generally, OSM has achieved the success it has with a >"just do it" attitude: Instead of saying, 15 years ago, "BEFORE we >start, let's come up with a good data scheme and a feature catalogue", >people said "let's just start and then fix things as we go along". > >My recommendation would be to just stat discussing whatever needs >discussing on the talk-au mailing list and branch out as the need >arises. If something is worth discussing then a non-ideal UI should not >be the blocker, and if it is, then maybe the issue is not so important. > >Bye >Frederik > >-- >Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" >E008°23'33" > >___ >Talk-au mailing list >Talk-au@openstreetmap.org >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] topic A: the platform itself
Hi, On 9/20/19 03:14, Herbert.Remi via Talk-au wrote: > I will post several concerns and information on several issues, but the > first is this platform itself. You call this platform a "forum" which is ok in the abstract sense, but note that there is actually an Australia forum in addition to this Australia mailing list (https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=24). The forum provides a slightly different user experience but is used less. In other countries, people have set up Slack channels or Facebook groups or even more esoteric channels of communication, in addition of or as a replacement for mailing lists - browse https://github.com/osmlab/osm-community-index if you want to get an idea. There's no strict rule about where the OSM community should discuss their issues, however media that requires prior registration with a third-party entity - like Slack or Facebook - are sometimes frowned upon as they give control over who can participate to that third party and might require the participant to agree to wide-ranging exploitation of their personal data by a commercial entity. In Germany where I hail from, the forum and the mailing list are used by about the same number of (but largely different) people, and since the total number of contributors is large enough to guarantee lively discussion on both, that's totally fine. Germany also has mailing lists for individual states but they are used very little, and even state-specific issues would often be discussed on the nationwide list to ensure they get enough attention. Speaking very generally, OSM has achieved the success it has with a "just do it" attitude: Instead of saying, 15 years ago, "BEFORE we start, let's come up with a good data scheme and a feature catalogue", people said "let's just start and then fix things as we go along". My recommendation would be to just stat discussing whatever needs discussing on the talk-au mailing list and branch out as the need arises. If something is worth discussing then a non-ideal UI should not be the blocker, and if it is, then maybe the issue is not so important. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] topic A: the platform itself
On 20/09/19 11:14, Herbert.Remi via Talk-au wrote: I will post several concerns and information on several issues, but the first is this platform itself. There are few problems with the AU forum that leaves that impression that is it not scalable. There should be a sub-category for every state of Australia. It is also useful for categories for specific topics. Folder structures with unique associations are better than nothing but really, what you need is tags that allow the person posting the message to assign categories relevant to it, and then filter by tags. I do not believe there are the numbers of participants to justify splitting into sub categories. 1. Finally, and the only reason for discussing this here is you would want to migrate the community to the new platform. No, this response points out one problem in the proposal. It does NOT support the proposal by replying to it! If you maintain this as part of your interaction with the list there will be no responses to your proposals .. but that simply indicates a refusal to accept this nonsense. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] topic A: the platform itself
I will post several concerns and information on several issues, but the first is this platform itself. There are few problems with the AU forum that leaves that impression that is it not scalable. - The UX is archaic. People have got used to user-friendly apps for their smartphone. The AU forum is not familiar and alienating. Many who could contribute would not get past the registration. I am interested in setting up a forum for discussion and distribution of information on another non-OSM related topic but have decided against this UX. I believe that the majority of non-technical and older users be happy with this platform. - It is too difficult to navigate multiple threads and as a result, much of the good information gets lost. For each discussion topic, you need a distinguishable thread and the possibility to read just that one. With multiple threads and people in each thread, confusion would otherwise reign. The current UX is in that sense not scalable. It limited by its very design to stay small as with size it strangles itself. - There should be a sub-category for every state of Australia. It is also useful for categories for specific topics. Folder structures with unique associations are better than nothing but really, what you need is tags that allow the person posting the message to assign categories relevant to it, and then filter by tags. - For more complex information and longer texts, you need some formatting to make the text more understandable. A good example of a forum that allows this is the Joplin user support forum on GitHub (here https://discourse.joplinapp.org/). One option used here is a markdown editor but basic RTF features would be sufficient. When copy/pasting text from other website and links, it is important that the information does not require further editing to be legible. One of the advantages of markdown from GitHub is that in translating HTML, the formatting is rarely lost. - I would be best if the platform is supported by a good app. This may seem like repetition but often I often find good things browsing my phone and can post or forward the information to others from the share function in the browser: choose the app and add the post. Completed in seconds. - An idea from the OSM support pages is Discord, which appears to be a gaming chat website/app but has many of the features that are discussed here. Not surprisingly gaming creates an environment that allows quick changes between game and community for discussion. Even if you are NOT currently playing the game the app allows easy and ubiquitous engagement with the community. This makes sense. - If you have one repository for all knowledge it needs to be easily searchable. The discussion about the topic of interest may have been months ago. A search function is required that allows you to narrow down the posts, without scrolling through months of discussions. This I miss the most. - Finally, and the only reason for discussing this here is you would want to migrate the community to the new platform. The community is the source of the information. The lack of a knowledgable and respectable community has been the failure of many social media platforms. We want to preserve that aspect of this forum.___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
