Re: [talk-au] Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

[Paul Norman]

On 11/11/2015 9:04 PM, Leith Bade wrote:
We hope in the future to also make use of route relations, however the 
key piece of software (osm2pgsql) we use to work with OSM does not 
support them.


osm2pgsql does support route relations, and will in fact import them 
with the default style.


Where it's a bit more work is if you want to interpret tags from both 
relations and the ways that make them. I expected to do that soon, and 
it's not going to involve any SQL.


What is hard is if you want the style of your shield to depend on the 
highway (e.g. different shields for tertiary, secondary, etc) and to 
render shields from refs on ways if no relations are present and to 
override refs on ways.


If someone from Mapbox wants to work with me to clear up any 
documentation on how to do this, and to provide examples, they should 
get in touch with me. Rewriting osm2pgsql is not to be taken on by the 
feint of heart, or at the end, by the sane, and making full use of 
community supported existing tools is generally preferred to writing new 
ones.


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Re: [talk-au] Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

[Leith Bade]

Hi Mark,

Interesting, I will have a look at that.

We hope in the future to also make use of route relations, however the key
piece of software (osm2pgsql) we use to work with OSM does not support them.

One of my colleagues has been working on a replacement for that software.

Thanks,
Leith Bade
le...@mapbox.com

On 12 November 2015 at 08:22, Mark Pulley  wrote:

> On 10 Nov 2015, at 8:51 pm, Leith Bade  wrote:
>
> Hi Alex,
>
> That was what I originally going to implement.
>
> However we will need to keep a list of individual routes for QLD NT and WA
> since there is no way to separate national and state routes in those states
> to give white or blue shield respectively.
>
> The engineers pushed back against this as we much prefer leveraging OSMs
> rich data model to do this sort of thing automatically.
>
> To understand the reason, say a state one day changes the designation. If
> we hard code the list of routes some one has to remember to go and update
> the list. If we just rely on OSM tags then this will be picked up
> automatically when a local user updates the ways
>
> Many highway routes include a network tag, e.g. a state route would have
> network=S, ref=xx - would using the network tag work to get the correct
> shield?
>
> Mark P.
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

[Mark Pulley]

On 10 Nov 2015, at 8:51 pm, Leith Bade  wrote:
> Hi Alex,
> 
> That was what I originally going to implement.
> 
> However we will need to keep a list of individual routes for QLD NT and WA 
> since there is no way to separate national and state routes in those states 
> to give white or blue shield respectively.
> 
> The engineers pushed back against this as we much prefer leveraging OSMs rich 
> data model to do this sort of thing automatically.
> 
> To understand the reason, say a state one day changes the designation. If we 
> hard code the list of routes some one has to remember to go and update the 
> list. If we just rely on OSM tags then this will be picked up automatically 
> when a local user updates the ways
> 
Many highway routes include a network tag, e.g. a state route would have 
network=S, ref=xx - would using the network tag work to get the correct shield?

Mark P.

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Re: [talk-au] Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

[Leith Bade]

Hi Ross and Micheal,

Fair enough. Perhaps instead of trying to change the refs to include
prefixes, they should be removed for routes that are numerical only to
align with your recommendation.

Basically:
- in Tasmania: change "NH1" to "1"
- in Victoria: change all "S x" to "x"
- in West Australia: change all "Sx" to "x"

To separate shield types, a comprehensive network of route relations would
be implemented using the networks codes assigned in
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Custom_Highway_Shields#Australia

This would require a large amount of effort however, unless it was
automated which I know a lot of people do not like.

(Sorry Ross for the duplicate email, I realised I forgot to hit reply all)

Thanks,
Leith Bade
le...@mapbox.com

On 10 November 2015 at 18:46, Ross  wrote:

> To me your proposed changes appear to be a lot like tagging for the
> renderer:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer
>
> If the states are not doing alphanumeric then they should not be rendered
> that way.
>
> I'd suggest linking to the routes you are proposing to change and see what
> opinions you get.
>
> I'm sure this has been discussed before and I think the general consensus
> was "only tag with alphanumerics where it is signposted as such".
>
> You may also want to have a look at these:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_routes_in_Queensland
>
> There is a similar wikipedia page for each state.
>
> Cheers
> Ross
>
>
>
> On 10/11/15 16:19, Leith Bade wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I work for Mapbox as their only southern hemisphere contractor based in
> Canberra.
>
> Recently we begun a project to enhance our maps with highway shield images.
>
> Most of Australia has been fairly straightforward to develop shield
> selection rules for thanks to the alphanumeric system.
>
> However there are a states where no prefix is used with numeral only
> routes. Particularly Queensland (which has a mix of numeral and
> alphanumeric systems due to ongoing transition), the Northern Territory,
> and West Australia (which have not adopted the alphanumeric yet).
>
> In other states prefixes are used to separate National Highways (green and
> gold shields), National Routes (white shields) and State Routes (blue
> shields).
>
> Notably in Melbourne a "S xx" and West Australia a "Sxx" prefix is used
> for blue shield routes. Also in Tasmania "NH1" is used for the only
> non-alphanumeric route.
>
> For national consistency I would like to change all state routes in the
> Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "Sxx" prefix. Additionally in
> West Australia and Northern Territory to change all national highways to
> "NHxx" prefix.
>
> There is no use of a prefix currently anywhere for a national route,
> however changing the few remaining routes in West Australia, Northern
> Territory and Queensland to use a "NRxx" prefix would be useful.
>
> Finally I found state route 24 in Northern Territory is highway=trunk when
> at most it should be highway=primary to match the rest of the state. Also
> in Queensland national route 1 from Cairns heading out west is also trunk
> when at most it should be primary since it does not connect to a major city.
>
> I welcome any feedback or suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
> Leith Bade
> le...@mapbox.com
>
>
> ___
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>
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

[Phil (The Geek) Wyatt]

This might also give you a heads up on what is happening in each state, though 
it bears no relationship to tags in OSM

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Australia

Cheers - Phil

 

From: Leith Bade [mailto:le...@mapbox.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, 10 November 2015 7:16 PM
To: Ross; cle...@97k.com
Cc: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

 

Hi Ross and Micheal,

Fair enough. Perhaps instead of trying to change the refs to include prefixes, 
they should be removed for routes that are numerical only to align with your 
recommendation.

Basically:

- in Tasmania: change "NH1" to "1"

- in Victoria: change all "S x" to "x"

- in West Australia: change all "Sx" to "x"

To separate shield types, a comprehensive network of route relations would be 
implemented using the networks codes assigned in 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Custom_Highway_Shields#Australia

This would require a large amount of effort however, unless it was automated 
which I know a lot of people do not like.

(Sorry Ross for the duplicate email, I realised I forgot to hit reply all)




Thanks,

Leith Bade

le...@mapbox.com

 

On 10 November 2015 at 18:46, Ross <i...@4x4falcon.com> wrote:

To me your proposed changes appear to be a lot like tagging for the renderer:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer

If the states are not doing alphanumeric then they should not be rendered that 
way.

I'd suggest linking to the routes you are proposing to change and see what 
opinions you get.

I'm sure this has been discussed before and I think the general consensus was 
"only tag with alphanumerics where it is signposted as such".

You may also want to have a look at these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_routes_in_Queensland

There is a similar wikipedia page for each state.

Cheers
Ross





On 10/11/15 16:19, Leith Bade wrote:

Hi,

I work for Mapbox as their only southern hemisphere contractor based in 
Canberra.

Recently we begun a project to enhance our maps with highway shield images.

Most of Australia has been fairly straightforward to develop shield selection 
rules for thanks to the alphanumeric system.

However there are a states where no prefix is used with numeral only routes. 
Particularly Queensland (which has a mix of numeral and alphanumeric systems 
due to ongoing transition), the Northern Territory, and West Australia (which 
have not adopted the alphanumeric yet).

In other states prefixes are used to separate National Highways (green and gold 
shields), National Routes (white shields) and State Routes (blue shields).

Notably in Melbourne a "S xx" and West Australia a "Sxx" prefix is used for 
blue shield routes. Also in Tasmania "NH1" is used for the only 
non-alphanumeric route.

For national consistency I would like to change all state routes in the 
Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "Sxx" prefix. Additionally in West 
Australia and Northern Territory to change all national highways to "NHxx" 
prefix.

There is no use of a prefix currently anywhere for a national route, however 
changing the few remaining routes in West Australia, Northern Territory and 
Queensland to use a "NRxx" prefix would be useful.

Finally I found state route 24 in Northern Territory is highway=trunk when at 
most it should be highway=primary to match the rest of the state. Also in 
Queensland national route 1 from Cairns heading out west is also trunk when at 
most it should be primary since it does not connect to a major city.

I welcome any feedback or suggestions.




Thanks, 

Leith Bade

le...@mapbox.com

 

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Re: [talk-au] Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

[Leith Bade]

Hi Alex,

That was what I originally going to implement.

However we will need to keep a list of individual routes for QLD NT and WA
since there is no way to separate national and state routes in those states
to give white or blue shield respectively.

The engineers pushed back against this as we much prefer leveraging OSMs
rich data model to do this sort of thing automatically.

To understand the reason, say a state one day changes the designation. If
we hard code the list of routes some one has to remember to go and update
the list. If we just rely on OSM tags then this will be picked up
automatically when a local user updates the ways.
On 10 Nov 2015 8:41 pm, "Alex Sims"  wrote:

> Hi Leith,
>
> I’d second the finger waggling for tagging for the renderer, however a way
> out would be to transform the data in Mapbox on a state by state basis to
> get what you want. So OpenStreetMap records what is on the ground. When
> your rendering your map you can easily intersect polygons of the states
> with each highway link to take account of each states variation to make it
> look consistent nationally inside Mapbox.
>
> At least the states are internally consistent. :-) and South Australia is
> all fine :-) :-)
>
> Alex
>
> On 10 Nov 2015, at 6:46 PM, Leith Bade  wrote:
>
> Hi Ross and Micheal,
>
> Fair enough. Perhaps instead of trying to change the refs to include
> prefixes, they should be removed for routes that are numerical only to
> align with your recommendation.
>
> Basically:
> - in Tasmania: change "NH1" to "1"
> - in Victoria: change all "S x" to "x"
> - in West Australia: change all "Sx" to "x"
>
> To separate shield types, a comprehensive network of route relations would
> be implemented using the networks codes assigned in
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Custom_Highway_Shields#Australia
>
> This would require a large amount of effort however, unless it was
> automated which I know a lot of people do not like.
>
> (Sorry Ross for the duplicate email, I realised I forgot to hit reply all)
>
> Thanks,
> Leith Bade
> le...@mapbox.com
>
> On 10 November 2015 at 18:46, Ross  wrote:
>
>> To me your proposed changes appear to be a lot like tagging for the
>> renderer:
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer
>>
>> If the states are not doing alphanumeric then they should not be rendered
>> that way.
>>
>> I'd suggest linking to the routes you are proposing to change and see
>> what opinions you get.
>>
>> I'm sure this has been discussed before and I think the general consensus
>> was "only tag with alphanumerics where it is signposted as such".
>>
>> You may also want to have a look at these:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_routes_in_Queensland
>>
>> There is a similar wikipedia page for each state.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Ross
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/11/15 16:19, Leith Bade wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I work for Mapbox as their only southern hemisphere contractor based in
>> Canberra.
>>
>> Recently we begun a project to enhance our maps with highway shield
>> images.
>>
>> Most of Australia has been fairly straightforward to develop shield
>> selection rules for thanks to the alphanumeric system.
>>
>> However there are a states where no prefix is used with numeral only
>> routes. Particularly Queensland (which has a mix of numeral and
>> alphanumeric systems due to ongoing transition), the Northern Territory,
>> and West Australia (which have not adopted the alphanumeric yet).
>>
>> In other states prefixes are used to separate National Highways (green
>> and gold shields), National Routes (white shields) and State Routes (blue
>> shields).
>>
>> Notably in Melbourne a "S xx" and West Australia a "Sxx" prefix is used
>> for blue shield routes. Also in Tasmania "NH1" is used for the only
>> non-alphanumeric route.
>>
>> For national consistency I would like to change all state routes in the
>> Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "Sxx" prefix. Additionally in
>> West Australia and Northern Territory to change all national highways to
>> "NHxx" prefix.
>>
>> There is no use of a prefix currently anywhere for a national route,
>> however changing the few remaining routes in West Australia, Northern
>> Territory and Queensland to use a "NRxx" prefix would be useful.
>>
>> Finally I found state route 24 in Northern Territory is highway=trunk
>> when at most it should be highway=primary to match the rest of the state.
>> Also in Queensland national route 1 from Cairns heading out west is also
>> trunk when at most it should be primary since it does not connect to a
>> major city.
>>
>> I welcome any feedback or suggestions.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Leith Bade
>> le...@mapbox.com
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-au mailing 
>> listTalk-au@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> 

Re: [talk-au] Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

[Alex Sims]

Hi Leith,

I’d second the finger waggling for tagging for the renderer, however a way out 
would be to transform the data in Mapbox on a state by state basis to get what 
you want. So OpenStreetMap records what is on the ground. When your rendering 
your map you can easily intersect polygons of the states with each highway link 
to take account of each states variation to make it look consistent nationally 
inside Mapbox.

At least the states are internally consistent. :-) and South Australia is all 
fine :-) :-)

Alex

> On 10 Nov 2015, at 6:46 PM, Leith Bade  wrote:
> 
> Hi Ross and Micheal,
> 
> Fair enough. Perhaps instead of trying to change the refs to include 
> prefixes, they should be removed for routes that are numerical only to align 
> with your recommendation.
> 
> Basically:
> - in Tasmania: change "NH1" to "1"
> - in Victoria: change all "S x" to "x"
> - in West Australia: change all "Sx" to "x"
> 
> To separate shield types, a comprehensive network of route relations would be 
> implemented using the networks codes assigned in 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Custom_Highway_Shields#Australia 
> 
> 
> This would require a large amount of effort however, unless it was automated 
> which I know a lot of people do not like.
> 
> (Sorry Ross for the duplicate email, I realised I forgot to hit reply all)
> 
> Thanks,
> Leith Bade
> le...@mapbox.com 
> On 10 November 2015 at 18:46, Ross  > wrote:
> To me your proposed changes appear to be a lot like tagging for the renderer:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer 
> 
> 
> If the states are not doing alphanumeric then they should not be rendered 
> that way.
> 
> I'd suggest linking to the routes you are proposing to change and see what 
> opinions you get.
> 
> I'm sure this has been discussed before and I think the general consensus was 
> "only tag with alphanumerics where it is signposted as such".
> 
> You may also want to have a look at these:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_routes_in_Queensland 
> 
> 
> There is a similar wikipedia page for each state.
> 
> Cheers
> Ross
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/11/15 16:19, Leith Bade wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I work for Mapbox as their only southern hemisphere contractor based in 
>> Canberra.
>> 
>> Recently we begun a project to enhance our maps with highway shield images.
>> 
>> Most of Australia has been fairly straightforward to develop shield 
>> selection rules for thanks to the alphanumeric system.
>> 
>> However there are a states where no prefix is used with numeral only routes. 
>> Particularly Queensland (which has a mix of numeral and alphanumeric systems 
>> due to ongoing transition), the Northern Territory, and West Australia 
>> (which have not adopted the alphanumeric yet).
>> 
>> In other states prefixes are used to separate National Highways (green and 
>> gold shields), National Routes (white shields) and State Routes (blue 
>> shields).
>> 
>> Notably in Melbourne a "S xx" and West Australia a "Sxx" prefix is used for 
>> blue shield routes. Also in Tasmania "NH1" is used for the only 
>> non-alphanumeric route.
>> 
>> For national consistency I would like to change all state routes in the 
>> Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "Sxx" prefix. Additionally in 
>> West Australia and Northern Territory to change all national highways to 
>> "NHxx" prefix.
>> 
>> There is no use of a prefix currently anywhere for a national route, however 
>> changing the few remaining routes in West Australia, Northern Territory and 
>> Queensland to use a "NRxx" prefix would be useful.
>> 
>> Finally I found state route 24 in Northern Territory is highway=trunk when 
>> at most it should be highway=primary to match the rest of the state. Also in 
>> Queensland national route 1 from Cairns heading out west is also trunk when 
>> at most it should be primary since it does not connect to a major city.
>> 
>> I welcome any feedback or suggestions.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Leith Bade
>> le...@mapbox.com 
>> 
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Re: [talk-au] Highway route number prefixes for QLD and NT

[Ross]

To me your proposed changes appear to be a lot like tagging for the 
renderer:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer

If the states are not doing alphanumeric then they should not be 
rendered that way.


I'd suggest linking to the routes you are proposing to change and see 
what opinions you get.


I'm sure this has been discussed before and I think the general 
consensus was "only tag with alphanumerics where it is signposted as such".


You may also want to have a look at these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_routes_in_Queensland

There is a similar wikipedia page for each state.

Cheers
Ross


On 10/11/15 16:19, Leith Bade wrote:

Hi,

I work for Mapbox as their only southern hemisphere contractor based 
in Canberra.


Recently we begun a project to enhance our maps with highway shield 
images.


Most of Australia has been fairly straightforward to develop shield 
selection rules for thanks to the alphanumeric system.


However there are a states where no prefix is used with numeral only 
routes. Particularly Queensland (which has a mix of numeral and 
alphanumeric systems due to ongoing transition), the Northern 
Territory, and West Australia (which have not adopted the alphanumeric 
yet).


In other states prefixes are used to separate National Highways (green 
and gold shields), National Routes (white shields) and State Routes 
(blue shields).


Notably in Melbourne a "S xx" and West Australia a "Sxx" prefix is 
used for blue shield routes. Also in Tasmania "NH1" is used for the 
only non-alphanumeric route.


For national consistency I would like to change all state routes in 
the Northern Territory and Queensland to use a "Sxx" prefix. 
Additionally in West Australia and Northern Territory to change all 
national highways to "NHxx" prefix.


There is no use of a prefix currently anywhere for a national route, 
however changing the few remaining routes in West Australia, Northern 
Territory and Queensland to use a "NRxx" prefix would be useful.


Finally I found state route 24 in Northern Territory is highway=trunk 
when at most it should be highway=primary to match the rest of the 
state. Also in Queensland national route 1 from Cairns heading out 
west is also trunk when at most it should be primary since it does not 
connect to a major city.


I welcome any feedback or suggestions.

Thanks,
Leith Bade
le...@mapbox.com 


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