Re: [Talk-bd] Discussion: Issues with name localization for
Bangladesh
Dear Nasir Khan,
Sorry for being Late.
The reason I agreed to Mr. Aftabuzzaman Ullah is that now-a-days most of
the software can render Bengali Language. So, there is a possibility to
localize names for Bangladesh (Bengali) .
Thanks again.
*-----------------------------------*
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On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 1:29 PM <talk-bd-requ...@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
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> 1. Re: Discussion: Issues with name localization for Bangladesh
> (Nasir Khan)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 13:27:46 +0600
> From: Nasir Khan <nasir8...@gmail.com>
> To: Fazle Rabbi <fazlerabb...@gmail.com>
> Cc: Aftabuzzaman Ullah <aftabuzzamanul...@gmail.com>,
> talk-bd@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-bd] Discussion: Issues with name localization for
> Bangladesh
> Message-ID:
> <
> cap+9t6s_lghbgxe3nxti+snbsxurzm1k6qpjdzz4efs39x1...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Dear Md. Iqbal Hossain,
>
> Thank you for participating in the discussion.
>
> I believe you are reading all the posts of this email thread and you are
> aware that it is not about adding any vote to some individual, we are
> talking about establishing a policy for the whole community.
>
> At the last mail of this thread Mr Rabbi mentioned that (everyone can check
> this by their own) Mr Aftabuzzaman is referring to a community guideline
> which he added and there is no earlier discussion reference prior to adding
> this common guideline. As you mentioned you agree with Mr Aftabuzzaman,,
> then should i understand that are supporting all of these actions and
> activities regarding this matter or what?
>
> Please write the reply elaborately and mention the reasons which direction
> should we go about the matter we started the discussion here.
>
> thanks
> Nasir Khan
>
>
> --
> *Nasir Khan Saikat*
> www.nasirkhn.com
>
>
>
> On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 at 18:23, Fazle Rabbi <fazlerabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Mr Aftabuzzaman,
> >
> >
> > Thank you for participating in the discussion. We really appreciate it.
> >
> >
> > > I respectfully disagree that we should use default/primary "name" tag
> in
> > English instead of Bangla. If i understand correctly, OSM policy/general
> > community guideline is that default/primary "name" tag should be in
> > whatever language is used locally (for Bangladesh it is Bangla). (
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names ) It is common
> > practice and it is followed by most countries e.g Japan, China, Russia,
> all
> > arabic, cyrillic speaking countries etc countries.
> >
> > Disagreement is part of discussion and always welcomed. You have said
> that
> > as per your understating the OSM policy/general community guideline says
> > `name` tag should be in local language and you refer to 2 OSM wiki links.
> > The first link is about `name` tag localization not about what should be
> > on a `name` tag. The first line of that section says, "By now the
> majority
> > of rendering systems can deal with Unicode characters, so you can use the
> > local script for the default name tag. There is no need to use the Latin
> > script.". If I understand it correctly it says we can use local script
> > assumed it works in most system but for us it is not working. The second
> > link is about one place having multiple name in multiple language. If you
> > check the Issue section (
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Issues), it says
> > in the first point "if not disputed" `name` should have local name. I
> agree
> > to disagree. We have dispute in local name. Multilingual name is not same
> > as localization. For example, 'United States' has 'মার্কিন যুক্তরাষ্ট্র'
> as
> > Bengali as Multilingual name but in the context of our country we call it
> > 'America'. Please don't mix them up. You have also referenced that Japan,
> > China, Russia usages it but spiked about India which has similar font to
> > Bangladesh than any of those countries. India has a different page (
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/India#Naming_in_different_scripts_and_languages
> )
> > for it where the community after much discussion decided to keep English
> in
> > `name` tag. Emphasis on 'after much discussion'. Let's see if we have
> > anything of the same kind, shall we? We see that we do have a Bangladesh
> > section (
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Bangladesh)
> > that says that `name` should be Bengali and `name:en= should be in
> English.
> > But if we see the version history (
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Multilingual_names&action=history
> )
> > for that page that this edit was made by you(
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Aftab) on 19:55, 28 May 2019.
> > The first ever edit made by you on OSM was on 04 Jul 2018 17:53:57.
> Nobody
> > in the community knows about the page or the change. This looks very
> > convenient, isn't it? This is very heart-breaking to see that you edited
> > the wiki page without community consent to justify your work.
> >
> >
> > > We should use English because some software doesn't render Bangla
> > correctly isn't acceptable reason. It's may be true but By now the
> majority
> > of rendering systems/software can deal with unicode characters, supports
> > Bangla characters. Just because some software/site doesn't support Bangla
> > so we should use English, is like you have headache so cut the head like
> > solution.....
> >
> > Let's focus on the problem, shall we? The problem is putting Bengali in
> > `name` tag is causing problem and how we should solve it. For you, UX
> > problem caused by software that can't render Bengali is not an
> 'acceptable
> > reason' to replace Bengali names with `name:bn` tag even if it makes the
> > work of disaster response challenging, and we should ask the dev to fix
> > them. Fair enough. What we need to remember that this is an open source
> > ecosystem and people work as volunteer so it is tough to put a deadline
> on
> > a problem like this. So what should we do in the meantime? If it doesn't
> > work, shouldn't we use the Latin script instead of making a horrible user
> > experience and waiting for the devs to fix the problem?
> >
> > I think, in your rush to reply you didn't read the email completely or
> > understand it. For example, forgot about the second point for adopting
> > English name in `name` tag which was the problem faced by humanitarian
> aid
> > agencies like UN, MSF, Red Crescent and WFP who were unable to the data
> for
> > Bangladesh. You said that "It is not true that in order to fix Bangla
> > rendering problem, developer needs to learn Bangla.". Unfortunately, I
> > didn't say that on my mail. What I said that if we keep default names to
> > Bengali, people from other country who wants to use the map of Bangladesh
> > in OSM needs to learn because how else they will use that map with
> Bengali
> > name?
> >
> >
> > > It is also not true that English names were deleted altogether, i can
> > see it just moved to "name:en" field (e.g "name = Road 1" became "name =
> > সড়ক ১" & "name:en = Road 1"). If any software/site doesn't want to show
> > local language but english, they easily fallback to name:en.
> >
> > At the past it was true. We see that some quick edits has been made to
> > recover this, like: changeset 76836045(osm.org/changeset/76836045). We
> do
> > really appreciate it. But we have discovered 2 new problems on those
> edits.
> >
> > - Changeset comments are in Bengali. For example, 'সংশোধন' meaning
> > 'Fixed'. This is not OK even for me who can read Bengali. For me what is
> > fixed? And for someone who can't read Bengali? Well, he is lost. Please
> > remember that data is not just for the people of Bangladesh but also for
> > all over the work. Please use English both in changeset comments and
> > changeset discussions.
> >
> > - This is not a problem in your edit but it still a problem caused by the
> > same notion that `name` tag should have Bengali value. The problem is
> > `name` tags are being translated using Google Translate from the previous
> > English value of the `name` tag. Which is bad. Really really Bad! For
> > example, Bus stop became 'বাস থামবে'. changeset 76681081(
> > osm.org/changeset/76681081) Photo Reference:
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/2RDMUz2PjQt655p78.
> >
> >
> > > Per OSM policy/general community guideline, We should use
> > default/primary "name" tag in Bangla, any other name language in their
> code
> > e.g name:en for English, name:it for Italian etc. That's should be our
> > general guideline. Yes, If for some reason someone cannot/don't do this,
> > thats fine, no one going to yell / block them. But in general, our broad
> > nameing guideline should be same as OSM general guideline, use
> > default/primary "name" tag in Bangla.
> >
> > The OSM global policy is there to guide us which is not a decisive
> policy.
> > For each community, the members of the community discuses what should be
> > done keeping the guide as reference. What you wrote in this part is a
> > proposal which if you asked the community, we could have discussed to
> come
> > to can conclusion. But you already vandalized the data on your own make
> it
> > unusable for both user and aid agencies. So we are way past that.
> >
> >
> > Look this is not about you or edits made by you. Let's put all of this
> > away for now and see this issue as a whole as it has an effect on the
> whole
> > ecosystem then the tile images on the OSM site like data integrity,
> > usability and use case for end user. Where literally human lives are at
> > stake we should be a bit careful.
> >
> >
> > I would like other in the community to engage on this conversation and
> put
> > forward their opinion. Then we can decide on what to put on `name` tag.
> >
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Fazle Rabbi
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:32 AM Aftabuzzaman Ullah <
> > aftabuzzamanul...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello. Thanks for mail.
> >> I respectfully disagree that we should use default/primary "name" tag in
> >> English instead of Bangla. If i understand correctly, OSM policy/general
> >> community guideline is that default/primary "name" tag should be in
> >> whatever language is used locally (for Bangladesh it is Bangla). (
> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization
> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names ) It is common
> >> practice and it is followed by most countries e.g Japan, China, Russia,
> all
> >> arabic, cyrillic speaking countries etc countries.
> >>
> >> We should use English because some software doesn't render Bangla
> >> correctly isn't acceptable reason. It's may be true but By now the
> majority
> >> of rendering systems/software can deal with unicode characters, supports
> >> Bangla characters. Just because some software/site doesn't support
> Bangla
> >> so we should use English, is like you have headache so cut the head like
> >> solution. Like you said openstreetmap-carto was unable to render Bangla
> but
> >> it was fixed now. Same thing can be done with others, if an app doesn't
> >> support Bangla, we need to submit bug report, reach out the developer
> for
> >> adding Bangla font. Thats will be correct solution. It is not true that
> in
> >> order to fix Bangla rendering problem, developer needs to learn Bangla.
> >> They will just need to specify/include a Bangla font. we should need to
> >> take necessary step to fix rendering problem in the apps/site that don't
> >> render Bangla correctly e.g. submiting bug report (for exemple, to fix
> HOT
> >> rendering problem we need to ask developer to add a Bangla font here
> >> https://github.com/hotosm/HDM-CartoCSS/tree/master/fonts . i can see
> >> they already added arabic, tamil, thai, lao etc font) I will be happy to
> >> help with this & others.
> >>
> >> It is also not true that English names were deleted altogether, i can
> see
> >> it just moved to "name:en" field (e.g "name = Road 1" became "name =
> সড়ক ১"
> >> & "name:en = Road 1"). If any software/site doesn't want to show local
> >> language but english, they easily fallback to name:en.
> >>
> >> Per OSM policy/general community guideline, We should use
> default/primary
> >> "name" tag in Bangla, any other name language in their code e.g name:en
> for
> >> English, name:it for Italian etc. That's should be our general
> >> guideline. Yes, If for some reason someone cannot/don't do this, thats
> >> fine, no one going to yell / block them. But in general, our broad
> nameing
> >> guideline should be same as OSM general guideline, use default/primary
> >> "name" tag in Bangla.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Talk-bd mailing list
> >> Talk-bd@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-bd
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-bd mailing list
> > Talk-bd@openstreetmap.org
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