Re: [OSM-talk-be] Importing polygons of administrative boundaries for Belgium into OSM

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Fri, Jun 07, 2019 at 02:18:49PM +0200, Pierre Parmentier wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I just read this "L’Administration Générale de la Documentation
> Patrimoniale du SPF Finances a été désignée par les autres institutions
> comme étant la source authentique de ces limites administratives belges et
> les gère donc en tant que telle." or "De Algemene Administratie van de
> Patrimoniumdocumentatie (AAPD) van de FOD financiën is door de andere
> instellingen aangeduid als authentieke bron van de Belgische
> administratieve grenzen en beheert ze daarom als zodanig." on
> https://finances.belgium.be/sites/default/files/20181023_Limitesadministratives.pdf
> and
> https://financien.belgium.be/sites/default/files/20181023_Administratievegrenzen.pdf
> .
> 
> The available files with .shp data allow everybody to check the
> administrative limits of our municipalities. See
> https://finances.belgium.be/fr/particuliers/habitation/cadastre/plan-cadastral
> or
> https://financien.belgium.be/nl/particulieren/woning/kadaster/kadastraal-plan
> .

In short, they have decided who will deterime the official
boundaries.

If you follow the links, depending on Flanders, Brussels or
Wallonia, they will merge existing information, and it's still a
work in progress. At the end of, there will only be 1 source of
this information.

For Flanders, they will base this on GRB, and apply corrections.
They started in 2018, and it should be finnished by mid 2021. The
GRB and CADGIS should have the same information end up with the
same information.

For Brussels they have already done this based on UrbIS, and it
was finnished in 2018.

For Wallonia they don't seem to have a good source of this, and it
seems they have a lot of work, which should be finnished by 2025.

Note that the data you can download is from 1 January 2018, as in
before they actually have done any corrections. I suggest you
don't import it at this time.


Kurt


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[OSM-talk-be] Importing polygons of administrative boundaries for Belgium into OSM

[Pierre Parmentier]

Hello,

I just read this "L’Administration Générale de la Documentation
Patrimoniale du SPF Finances a été désignée par les autres institutions
comme étant la source authentique de ces limites administratives belges et
les gère donc en tant que telle." or "De Algemene Administratie van de
Patrimoniumdocumentatie (AAPD) van de FOD financiën is door de andere
instellingen aangeduid als authentieke bron van de Belgische
administratieve grenzen en beheert ze daarom als zodanig." on
https://finances.belgium.be/sites/default/files/20181023_Limitesadministratives.pdf
and
https://financien.belgium.be/sites/default/files/20181023_Administratievegrenzen.pdf
.

The available files with .shp data allow everybody to check the
administrative limits of our municipalities. See
https://finances.belgium.be/fr/particuliers/habitation/cadastre/plan-cadastral
or
https://financien.belgium.be/nl/particulieren/woning/kadaster/kadastraal-plan
.

Caution : the import of the data are subject to the license!

Regards.

Pierre Parmentier (aka foxandpotatoes)
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Importing polygons of administrative boundaries for Belgium into OSM

[Pierre Parmentier]

Dear all,

A tedious job but - when there is a doubt - the best way is to refer to the
'original': the Processen-verbaal van de Afpalingen van Gemeenten /
Procès-verbaux de Délimitation des Communes.

See for example here

on www.arch.be. All boundaries refers to limits of plots of land.

Need to be be checked all the successive fusion of municipalities.

Don't forget that a boundary marker is not always on the boundary;
sometimes the accompanying text (procès verbal) explains that a boundary or
its change of direction is a point on the line between marker A and marker
B at x metres from marker A (e.g. if the boundary is in the mid of a
stream). Sometimes there are three markers to define an angle of the
boundary.

Regards.

Pierre
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Importing polygons of administrative boundaries for Belgium into OSM

[Tim Couwelier]

Ground truth is only as precise as where they can manage to put up a sign
though.
I know a nearby case there a 3-point-border lies in the middle of an
intersection between two secondary roads.

Overruling an existing border just because the sign may be off a bit, seems
pushing it, no?

Op di 21 mei 2019 om 17:56 schreef joost schouppe :

> NGI data is not open as far as I'm aware. Cadastre is not accurate. You
> could look at Statbel nis9 open data. And for Flanders there is the
> "Voorlopig Referentiebestand Gemeentegrenzen", which is generally
> considered the best quality (note how it's called "voorlopig" though).
> So there is no single objective truth about where the borders are. As long
> as this situation persists (and it's Belgium so there is little reason to
> think this will be fixed soon), I don't see why OpenStreetMap should follow
> any of these sources closely. As long as this persists, looking at the
> different datasets (as well as some ground observations) with a human eye,
> seems the best way forward to me.
>
> --
> Joost Schouppe
> ___
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Importing polygons of administrative boundaries for Belgium into OSM

[joost schouppe]

NGI data is not open as far as I'm aware. Cadastre is not accurate. You
could look at Statbel nis9 open data. And for Flanders there is the
"Voorlopig Referentiebestand Gemeentegrenzen", which is generally
considered the best quality (note how it's called "voorlopig" though).
So there is no single objective truth about where the borders are. As long
as this situation persists (and it's Belgium so there is little reason to
think this will be fixed soon), I don't see why OpenStreetMap should follow
any of these sources closely. As long as this persists, looking at the
different datasets (as well as some ground observations) with a human eye,
seems the best way forward to me.

-- 
Joost Schouppe
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Importing polygons of administrative boundaries for Belgium into OSM

[Lionel Giard]

I know that it's not always possible but in some cases, you can find the
boundaries via the boundary stones (when they exists like in
buildings/chapels). But they are generally well hidden - it often need
local knowledge like from local notary of the village or local
historican... And if you have contact with the municipality, you can get
the information directly when they made a small change in the cadastre to
reflect reality (like when they correct huge mistakes in the cadastre from
more than a century ago).

But i'm pretty sure that cadastre is not yet up to good accuracy (compare
to reality) at the moment. They are improving their data but, as far as i
know, it is not yet corrected everywhere.
For example, in a lot of rural areas, the cadastre was made from the center
of the agglomeration (i.e. the best accuracy is found near the church or
the center of the village) and if you go more and more away of this center,
you'll find big errors or incertitude in the data (like the cadastre
parcels can be few dozen meters off reality).  Relative to other cadastre
parcels, the cadastre data is correct but not if you put our OSM data on
top, it will not match for the comparable data like the location of
streets, ...
That's why i say that i will not *YET *import blindly the cadastre
administrative data, as it *can *be "imprecise" relative to the reality at
the moment.

Le mar. 7 mai 2019 à 10:42, K W via Talk-be  a
écrit :

> Good morning,
> thanks a lot for your reply. It is difficult to see for me how you could
> see "by field survey" where administrative boundaries run. This is
> impossible, as they are not a physical feature. Therefore, the only valid
> reference are the official data. I agree that OSM is quite good, but there
> are definitely instances where the borders deviate by "a few metres" or
> more – which, for certain purposes, makes a big difference. Indeed, so far
> I have corrected mistakes by hand, based on the cadastre. As the only valid
> data one could imagine when it comes to administrative boundaries are the
> official ones (be it from the cadastre or from ING) it would still, in my
> opinion, be better to import those into OSM rather than correcting manually
> here and there.
>
> On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 9:58:05 AM GMT+2, Lionel Giard <
> lionel.gi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> To me this dataset is not necessarily better than what we have in OSM (as
> we corrected some border by field survey  where this dataset is wrong).
> I would never "replace" blindly all existing geometry by this one. I think
> we can say that we are more or less correct (i never saw errors of more
> than a few meters) - and i find it better to improve the current boundaries
> by hand : checking the official sources, the reality on the ground, ... For
> example, i had a part of a street that i surveyed recently where the
> addresses changed of municipality (to have the whole street in the same
> municipality and not cut it before the last three houses). We are correct
> in OSM, but not yet in the official data (as they don't update often
> enough).
>
> Technically, it is not the official source for administrative boundaries
> in Belgium, as the official source is the Cadastre - which is also open -
> but it is not yet accurate enough (even if they are improving it a lot
> recently).
>
> Le mar. 7 mai 2019 à 09:21, K W via Talk-be  a
> écrit :
>
> EN: Good morning, from time to time I make adjustments in OSM where the
> boundaries between municipalities in OSM are not exactly following the
> official data. However, this is a tedious process, and it would be nice, of
> course, to have the exact data for all Belgium municipalities (and former
> municipalities – "deelgemeenten"/"sections") in one go.
> Now, I have seen that it is possible to download the official border
> polygons from the site of the National Geographic Institute for free: IGN
> - produits - Données numériques  . The
> only problem is that I have no clue whatsoever how this could be done
> technically, i.e. to replace the existing municipal boundaries in OSM by
> the correct polygons from IGN. Could anybody help with this?
>
> IGN - produits - Données numériques
>
> 
>
>
> NL: Goedemorgen, af en toe maak ik correcties in OSM waar de grenzen
> tussen gemeenten in OSM niet precies de officiële gegevens volgen. Maar dat
> is een moeilijke procedure en het zou natuurlijk leuk zijn om de precieze
> gegevens voor alle Belgische gemeenten (en vroegere gemeenten –
> "deelgemeenten") in een keer te hebben.
> Nu heb ik gezien dat het mogelijk is om de officiële grenspolygonen van de
> webpagina van het Nationaal Geografisch Instituut gratis te downloaden:
> http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm. Het enige probleem is dat ik geen idee
> heb hoe je dat technisch moet doen, dus hoe de huidige gemeentegrenzen op
> OSM te vervangen door de correcte polygonen van het NGI. Zou iemand kunnen
> 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Importing polygons of administrative boundaries for Belgium into OSM

[K W via Talk-be]

 Good morning,thanks a lot for your reply. It is difficult to see for me how 
you could see "by field survey" where administrative boundaries run. This is 
impossible, as they are not a physical feature. Therefore, the only valid 
reference are the official data. I agree that OSM is quite good, but there are 
definitely instances where the borders deviate by "a few metres" or more – 
which, for certain purposes, makes a big difference. Indeed, so far I have 
corrected mistakes by hand, based on the cadastre. As the only valid data one 
could imagine when it comes to administrative boundaries are the official ones 
(be it from the cadastre or from ING) it would still, in my opinion, be better 
to import those into OSM rather than correcting manually here and there.
On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 9:58:05 AM GMT+2, Lionel Giard 
 wrote:  
 
 Hello,
To me this dataset is not necessarily better than what we have in OSM (as we 
corrected some border by field survey  where this dataset is wrong). I 
would never "replace" blindly all existing geometry by this one. I think we can 
say that we are more or less correct (i never saw errors of more than a few 
meters) - and i find it better to improve the current boundaries by hand : 
checking the official sources, the reality on the ground, ... For example, i 
had a part of a street that i surveyed recently where the addresses changed of 
municipality (to have the whole street in the same municipality and not cut it 
before the last three houses). We are correct in OSM, but not yet in the 
official data (as they don't update often enough). Technically, it is not the 
official source for administrative boundaries in Belgium, as the official 
source is the Cadastre - which is also open - but it is not yet accurate enough 
(even if they are improving it a lot recently). 
Le mar. 7 mai 2019 à 09:21, K W via Talk-be  a écrit 
:

EN: Good morning, from time to time I make adjustments in OSM where the 
boundaries between municipalities in OSM are not exactly following the official 
data. However, this is a tedious process, and it would be nice, of course, to 
have the exact data for all Belgium municipalities (and former municipalities – 
"deelgemeenten"/"sections") in one go.Now, I have seen that it is possible to 
download the official border polygons from the site of the National Geographic 
Institute for free: IGN - produits - Données numériques . The only problem is 
that I have no clue whatsoever how this could be done technically, i.e. to 
replace the existing municipal boundaries in OSM by the correct polygons from 
IGN. Could anybody help with this?

| 
| 
| 
|  |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
IGN - produits - Données numériques


 |

 |

 |



NL: Goedemorgen, af en toe maak ik correcties in OSM waar de grenzen tussen 
gemeenten in OSM niet precies de officiële gegevens volgen. Maar dat is een 
moeilijke procedure en het zou natuurlijk leuk zijn om de precieze gegevens 
voor alle Belgische gemeenten (en vroegere gemeenten – "deelgemeenten") in een 
keer te hebben.Nu heb ik gezien dat het mogelijk is om de officiële 
grenspolygonen van de webpagina van het Nationaal Geografisch Instituut gratis 
te downloaden: http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm. Het enige probleem is dat ik 
geen idee heb hoe je dat technisch moet doen, dus hoe de huidige 
gemeentegrenzen op OSM te vervangen door de correcte polygonen van het NGI. Zou 
iemand kunnen helpen?
FR: Bonjour, du temps en temps je fais des corrections dans OSM où les 
frontières entre les communes dans OSM ne suivent pas les données officielles. 
Mais cela est un processus pénible et il serait agréable, bien sûr, avoir les 
données exactes pour toutes les communes belges (et communes anciennes – 
"sections") d’un seul coup.Or, j’ai vu qu’il est possible télécharger 
gratuitement les polygons officiels des frontières du site de l’Institut 
National Géographique: http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm. Le seul problème est 
que je n’ai aucune idée comment faire cela techniquement, c’est à dire comment 
remplacer les frontières communales existantes dans OSM par les polygons 
corrects de l’IGN. Est-ce que quelqu’un pourrait aider ?
DE: Guten Morgen, ab und zu bringe ich Korrekturen in OSM an, wo die Grenzen 
zwischen den Gemeinden in OSM nicht genau den offiziellen Daten folgen. Aber 
das ist natürlich ein mühsamer Prozess, und es wäre natürlich schön, die 
genauen Daten für alle belgischen Gemeinden (und früheren Gemeinden – 
"Teilgemeinden") auf einmal zu haben.Jetzt habe ich gesehen, dass es möglich 
ist die offiziellen Grenzpolygone auf der Webseite des Nationalen 
Geographischen Instituts gratis herunterzuladen: 
http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm. Das einzige Problem ist, dass ich keine 
Ahnung habe, wie man das technisch machen müßte, mit anderen Worten wie man die 
Gemeindegrenzen, die in OSM derzeit existieren, durch die korrekten Polygone 
des ING ersetzen könnte. Kann mir da jemand helfen?
Many thanks/hartelijk dank/merci 

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Importing polygons of administrative boundaries for Belgium into OSM

[Lionel Giard]

Hello,

To me this dataset is not necessarily better than what we have in OSM (as
we corrected some border by field survey  where this dataset is wrong).
I would never "replace" blindly all existing geometry by this one. I think
we can say that we are more or less correct (i never saw errors of more
than a few meters) - and i find it better to improve the current boundaries
by hand : checking the official sources, the reality on the ground, ... For
example, i had a part of a street that i surveyed recently where the
addresses changed of municipality (to have the whole street in the same
municipality and not cut it before the last three houses). We are correct
in OSM, but not yet in the official data (as they don't update often
enough).

Technically, it is not the official source for administrative boundaries in
Belgium, as the official source is the Cadastre - which is also open - but
it is not yet accurate enough (even if they are improving it a lot
recently).

Le mar. 7 mai 2019 à 09:21, K W via Talk-be  a
écrit :

> EN: Good morning, from time to time I make adjustments in OSM where the
> boundaries between municipalities in OSM are not exactly following the
> official data. However, this is a tedious process, and it would be nice, of
> course, to have the exact data for all Belgium municipalities (and former
> municipalities – "deelgemeenten"/"sections") in one go.
> Now, I have seen that it is possible to download the official border
> polygons from the site of the National Geographic Institute for free: IGN
> - produits - Données numériques  . The
> only problem is that I have no clue whatsoever how this could be done
> technically, i.e. to replace the existing municipal boundaries in OSM by
> the correct polygons from IGN. Could anybody help with this?
>
> IGN - produits - Données numériques
>
> 
>
>
> NL: Goedemorgen, af en toe maak ik correcties in OSM waar de grenzen
> tussen gemeenten in OSM niet precies de officiële gegevens volgen. Maar dat
> is een moeilijke procedure en het zou natuurlijk leuk zijn om de precieze
> gegevens voor alle Belgische gemeenten (en vroegere gemeenten –
> "deelgemeenten") in een keer te hebben.
> Nu heb ik gezien dat het mogelijk is om de officiële grenspolygonen van de
> webpagina van het Nationaal Geografisch Instituut gratis te downloaden:
> http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm. Het enige probleem is dat ik geen idee
> heb hoe je dat technisch moet doen, dus hoe de huidige gemeentegrenzen op
> OSM te vervangen door de correcte polygonen van het NGI. Zou iemand kunnen
> helpen?
>
> FR: Bonjour, du temps en temps je fais des corrections dans OSM où les
> frontières entre les communes dans OSM ne suivent pas les données
> officielles. Mais cela est un processus pénible et il serait agréable, bien
> sûr, avoir les données exactes pour toutes les communes belges (et communes
> anciennes – "sections") d’un seul coup.
> Or, j’ai vu qu’il est possible télécharger gratuitement les polygons
> officiels des frontières du site de l’Institut National Géographique:
> http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm. Le seul problème est que je n’ai
> aucune idée comment faire cela techniquement, c’est à dire comment
> remplacer les frontières communales existantes dans OSM par les polygons
> corrects de l’IGN. Est-ce que quelqu’un pourrait aider ?
>
> DE: Guten Morgen, ab und zu bringe ich Korrekturen in OSM an, wo die
> Grenzen zwischen den Gemeinden in OSM nicht genau den offiziellen Daten
> folgen. Aber das ist natürlich ein mühsamer Prozess, und es wäre natürlich
> schön, die genauen Daten für alle belgischen Gemeinden (und früheren
> Gemeinden – "Teilgemeinden") auf einmal zu haben.
> Jetzt habe ich gesehen, dass es möglich ist die offiziellen Grenzpolygone
> auf der Webseite des Nationalen Geographischen Instituts gratis
> herunterzuladen: http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm. Das einzige Problem
> ist, dass ich keine Ahnung habe, wie man das technisch machen müßte, mit
> anderen Worten wie man die Gemeindegrenzen, die in OSM derzeit existieren,
> durch die korrekten Polygone des ING ersetzen könnte. Kann mir da jemand
> helfen?
>
> Many thanks/hartelijk dank/merci beaucoup/vielen Dank!
> ___
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[OSM-talk-be] Importing polygons of administrative boundaries for Belgium into OSM

[K W via Talk-be]

EN: Good morning, from time to time I make adjustments in OSM where the 
boundaries between municipalities in OSM are not exactly following the official 
data. However, this is a tedious process, and it would be nice, of course, to 
have the exact data for all Belgium municipalities (and former municipalities – 
"deelgemeenten"/"sections") in one go.Now, I have seen that it is possible to 
download the official border polygons from the site of the National Geographic 
Institute for free: IGN - produits - Données numériques . The only problem is 
that I have no clue whatsoever how this could be done technically, i.e. to 
replace the existing municipal boundaries in OSM by the correct polygons from 
IGN. Could anybody help with this?

| 
| 
| 
|  |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
IGN - produits - Données numériques


 |

 |

 |



NL: Goedemorgen, af en toe maak ik correcties in OSM waar de grenzen tussen 
gemeenten in OSM niet precies de officiële gegevens volgen. Maar dat is een 
moeilijke procedure en het zou natuurlijk leuk zijn om de precieze gegevens 
voor alle Belgische gemeenten (en vroegere gemeenten – "deelgemeenten") in een 
keer te hebben.Nu heb ik gezien dat het mogelijk is om de officiële 
grenspolygonen van de webpagina van het Nationaal Geografisch Instituut gratis 
te downloaden: http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm. Het enige probleem is dat ik 
geen idee heb hoe je dat technisch moet doen, dus hoe de huidige 
gemeentegrenzen op OSM te vervangen door de correcte polygonen van het NGI. Zou 
iemand kunnen helpen?
FR: Bonjour, du temps en temps je fais des corrections dans OSM où les 
frontières entre les communes dans OSM ne suivent pas les données officielles. 
Mais cela est un processus pénible et il serait agréable, bien sûr, avoir les 
données exactes pour toutes les communes belges (et communes anciennes – 
"sections") d’un seul coup.Or, j’ai vu qu’il est possible télécharger 
gratuitement les polygons officiels des frontières du site de l’Institut 
National Géographique: http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm. Le seul problème est 
que je n’ai aucune idée comment faire cela techniquement, c’est à dire comment 
remplacer les frontières communales existantes dans OSM par les polygons 
corrects de l’IGN. Est-ce que quelqu’un pourrait aider ?
DE: Guten Morgen, ab und zu bringe ich Korrekturen in OSM an, wo die Grenzen 
zwischen den Gemeinden in OSM nicht genau den offiziellen Daten folgen. Aber 
das ist natürlich ein mühsamer Prozess, und es wäre natürlich schön, die 
genauen Daten für alle belgischen Gemeinden (und früheren Gemeinden – 
"Teilgemeinden") auf einmal zu haben.Jetzt habe ich gesehen, dass es möglich 
ist die offiziellen Grenzpolygone auf der Webseite des Nationalen 
Geographischen Instituts gratis herunterzuladen: 
http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR1-5-2.shtm. Das einzige Problem ist, dass ich keine 
Ahnung habe, wie man das technisch machen müßte, mit anderen Worten wie man die 
Gemeindegrenzen, die in OSM derzeit existieren, durch die korrekten Polygone 
des ING ersetzen könnte. Kann mir da jemand helfen?
Many thanks/hartelijk dank/merci beaucoup/vielen Dank!___
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