Re: [OSM-talk-be] int_ref, ref spelling, no space between letter and number....

[Marc Gemis]

When you search for "blank" on Wikipedia, you will find some
disambiguation pages (a.o https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blank_space),
and finally end up on :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_(punctuation)
So space is correct.

m.

p.s. Do we need to ask people not to write in Dutch whenever they
violate the dt-rule ? :-)
p.p.s Do you read the Dutch forum ? I sometimes have to read certain
posts 3 or 4 times to understand the "Dutch" that is used there. So I
do not bother the occasional typo in English.
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 3:49 PM Karel Adams  wrote:
>
> Thanks, Jo, you are looking on from a little distance, that is always helpful 
> to get consensus...
>
> I agree with your "the key to create such a blank is commonly known as the 
> space bar" - which only confirms how subtle the English language really is. 
> And that is precisely what makes me contest the "rule" cited by @Ruben 
> (he/she is right in the citation, but I defy the rule) "on this list the 
> accepted standard is to use English" - I never liked that rule, mostly for 
> this reason. There's all too many people who post (to some degree) gibberish, 
> in the firm belief they have good English.
>
> And to come back to @Ruben's reply "no-one would have failed to understand 
> what we meant": try taking this conversation though some www translation tool 
> to an exotic language, say Japanese or Swahili or Latin or Basque, than back 
> to English. Without having checked, I dare to bet that somewhere in the 
> process the "space" was converted to something astronautical. So yes, I am 
> sure many people might get confused. Or in other words, what's the added 
> value of posting in a language that is NOT native to this Belgian country? 
> Except of course to oblige those few who prefer learning foreign languages 
> over learning their own.
>
> Karel (admittedly touchy on matters of language and local culture)
>
>
> On 11/08/18 13:31, Jo wrote:
>
> Karel, you are probably right, but the key to create such a blank is commonly 
> known as the space bar.
>
> I would also remove the 'empty character' (Leerzeichen) here in Belgium.
>
> In France it's consistently with a space, I guess they find it like that on 
> their signage.
>
> Jo
>
> Op za 11 aug. 2018 om 15:11 schreef Karel Adams :
>>
>> Excuse me for being pecky on language - for this once I feel free
>> because language is (more or less) the subject matter anyway.
>>
>> Where @jakka writes "space", and @ruben neatly follows suit, I think the
>> actual meaning is "blank".
>>
>> nl "spatie" => en "blank"
>>
>> en "space" => nl "ruimte"
>>
>> Not wanting to "score" any personal hits, just for the common good:
>> allow me to recommend that English should only be used by those who
>> master that subtle language really well. There is no reason for not
>> posting in one's native language, on a list of regional importance such
>> as this.
>>
>> Groeten :)
>>
>> Karel
>>
>>
>> On 11/08/18 12:38, Ruben wrote:
>> > Hi Frank,
>> >
>> > On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 21:06:54 +0200, Jakka  wrote:
>> >> Where can I see and read what is the correct spelling of the E and other 
>> >> road network like A? Is there a space between the letter and number?
>> >> The wiki pages 
>> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/E-road_network and 
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_E-road_network are not clear 
>> >> about that...
>> >> See the mapillary https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vEtPrDgYQ9nVD2kfehABQg 
>> >> example: there are no spaces so should we adapt all those tags?
>> > I believe our local refs are without space (so "A17", "R0", "N540"). Our 
>> > signposting for international refs doesn't use a space either (E40), or 
>> > sometimes a 'thin space' (E 40). I've never seen a full space (E 40).
>> > On their site[1], the Flemish Agency for Roads and Traffic (AWV) 
>> > consistently uses no space for both local and E refs. So I'd be inclined 
>> > to say it's without space.
>> >
>> >> I see that most of int_ref is with space and ref and nat_ref without? But 
>> >> not always...
>> > A few years ago, a French mapper came along and mechanically edited 
>> > int_refs in Belgium. I asked them to stop but their changes were never 
>> > fully reverted, so there are still int_refs with a space in Belgium.
>> > I think it would be safe to remove the spaces mechanically, as it would 
>> > actually be reverting an earlier unauthorized mechanical edit. What do you 
>> > think?
>> >
>> > [1] https://wegenenverkeer.be/
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Ruben
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] int_ref, ref spelling, no space between letter and number....

[Stijn Rombauts]

 Hi,
A year or 2 ago I asked the same question and then no-one objected to ref and 
nat_ref without space and int_ref with a space.
Regards,
StijnRR

On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 2:38:33 PM GMT+2, Ruben 
 wrote:  
 
 Hi Frank,

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 21:06:54 +0200, Jakka  wrote:
> Where can I see and read what is the correct spelling of the E and other road 
> network like A? Is there a space between the letter and number?
> The wiki pages 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/E-road_network and 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_E-road_network are not clear 
> about that...
> See the mapillary https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vEtPrDgYQ9nVD2kfehABQg 
> example: there are no spaces so should we adapt all those tags?

I believe our local refs are without space (so "A17", "R0", "N540"). Our 
signposting for international refs doesn't use a space either (E40), or 
sometimes a 'thin space' (E 40). I've never seen a full space (E 40).
On their site[1], the Flemish Agency for Roads and Traffic (AWV) consistently 
uses no space for both local and E refs. So I'd be inclined to say it's without 
space.

> I see that most of int_ref is with space and ref and nat_ref without? But not 
> always...

A few years ago, a French mapper came along and mechanically edited int_refs in 
Belgium. I asked them to stop but their changes were never fully reverted, so 
there are still int_refs with a space in Belgium.
I think it would be safe to remove the spaces mechanically, as it would 
actually be reverting an earlier unauthorized mechanical edit. What do you 
think?

[1] https://wegenenverkeer.be/

Cheers,
Ruben

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] int_ref, ref spelling, no space between letter and number....

[Karel Adams]

Thanks, Jo, you are looking on from a little distance, that is always 
helpful to get consensus...


I agree with your "the key to create such a blank is commonly known as 
the space bar" - which only confirms how subtle the English language 
really is. And that is precisely what makes me contest the "rule" cited 
by @Ruben (he/she is right in the citation, but I defy the rule) "on 
this list the accepted standard is to use English" - I never liked that 
rule, mostly for this reason. There's all too many people who post (to 
some degree) gibberish, in the firm belief they have good English.


And to come back to @Ruben's reply "no-one would have failed to 
understand what we meant": try taking this conversation though some www 
translation tool to an exotic language, say Japanese or Swahili or Latin 
or Basque, than back to English. Without having checked, I dare to bet 
that somewhere in the process the "space" was converted to something 
astronautical. So yes, I am sure many people might get confused. Or in 
other words, what's the added value of posting in a language that is NOT 
native to this Belgian country? Except of course to oblige those few who 
prefer learning foreign languages over learning their own.


Karel (admittedly touchy on matters of language and local culture)


On 11/08/18 13:31, Jo wrote:

Karel, you are probably right, but the key to create such a blank is 
commonly known as the space bar.


I would also remove the 'empty character' (Leerzeichen) here in Belgium.

In France it's consistently with a space, I guess they find it like 
that on their signage.


Jo

Op za 11 aug. 2018 om 15:11 schreef Karel Adams >:


Excuse me for being pecky on language - for this once I feel free
because language is (more or less) the subject matter anyway.

Where @jakka writes "space", and @ruben neatly follows suit, I
think the
actual meaning is "blank".

nl "spatie" => en "blank"

en "space" => nl "ruimte"

Not wanting to "score" any personal hits, just for the common good:
allow me to recommend that English should only be used by those who
master that subtle language really well. There is no reason for not
posting in one's native language, on a list of regional importance
such
as this.

Groeten :)

Karel


On 11/08/18 12:38, Ruben wrote:
> Hi Frank,
>
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 21:06:54 +0200, Jakka mailto:vdmfrank...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Where can I see and read what is the correct spelling of the E
and other road network like A? Is there a space between the letter
and number?
>> The wiki pages
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/E-road_network
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_E-road_network are
not clear about that...
>> See the mapillary
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vEtPrDgYQ9nVD2kfehABQg example:
there are no spaces so should we adapt all those tags?
> I believe our local refs are without space (so "A17", "R0",
"N540"). Our signposting for international refs doesn't use a
space either (E40), or sometimes a 'thin space' (E 40). I've never
seen a full space (E 40).
> On their site[1], the Flemish Agency for Roads and Traffic (AWV)
consistently uses no space for both local and E refs. So I'd be
inclined to say it's without space.
>
>> I see that most of int_ref is with space and ref and nat_ref
without? But not always...
> A few years ago, a French mapper came along and mechanically
edited int_refs in Belgium. I asked them to stop but their changes
were never fully reverted, so there are still int_refs with a
space in Belgium.
> I think it would be safe to remove the spaces mechanically, as
it would actually be reverting an earlier unauthorized mechanical
edit. What do you think?
>
> [1] https://wegenenverkeer.be/
>
> Cheers,
> Ruben
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] int_ref, ref spelling, no space between letter and number....

[Wouter Hamelinck]

The ASCII standard RFC 20 describes character 32 as "Space (Normally
Non-Printing)". Nothing wrong with shortening that to "space" according to
me.
wouter

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 3:11 PM Karel Adams  wrote:

> Excuse me for being pecky on language - for this once I feel free
> because language is (more or less) the subject matter anyway.
>
> Where @jakka writes "space", and @ruben neatly follows suit, I think the
> actual meaning is "blank".
>
> nl "spatie" => en "blank"
>
> en "space" => nl "ruimte"
>
> Not wanting to "score" any personal hits, just for the common good:
> allow me to recommend that English should only be used by those who
> master that subtle language really well. There is no reason for not
> posting in one's native language, on a list of regional importance such
> as this.
>
> Groeten :)
>
> Karel
>
>
> On 11/08/18 12:38, Ruben wrote:
> > Hi Frank,
> >
> > On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 21:06:54 +0200, Jakka  wrote:
> >> Where can I see and read what is the correct spelling of the E and
> other road network like A? Is there a space between the letter and number?
> >> The wiki pages
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/E-road_network and
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_E-road_network are not clear
> about that...
> >> See the mapillary
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vEtPrDgYQ9nVD2kfehABQg example: there
> are no spaces so should we adapt all those tags?
> > I believe our local refs are without space (so "A17", "R0", "N540"). Our
> signposting for international refs doesn't use a space either (E40), or
> sometimes a 'thin space' (E 40). I've never seen a full space (E 40).
> > On their site[1], the Flemish Agency for Roads and Traffic (AWV)
> consistently uses no space for both local and E refs. So I'd be inclined to
> say it's without space.
> >
> >> I see that most of int_ref is with space and ref and nat_ref without?
> But not always...
> > A few years ago, a French mapper came along and mechanically edited
> int_refs in Belgium. I asked them to stop but their changes were never
> fully reverted, so there are still int_refs with a space in Belgium.
> > I think it would be safe to remove the spaces mechanically, as it would
> actually be reverting an earlier unauthorized mechanical edit. What do you
> think?
> >
> > [1] https://wegenenverkeer.be/
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Ruben
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-be mailing list
> > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
>
> ___
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>


-- 
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   - Thor Heyerdahl
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] int_ref, ref spelling, no space between letter and number....

[Ruben]

On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 15:30:26 +0200, Ruben  wrote:
> "Space" in English has well over 20 distinct meanings. One of them is
>  • according to Wiktionary[1]: "(letterpress typography) A piece of metal 
> type used to separate words, cast lower than other type so as not to take 
> ink, especially one that is narrower than one en (compare quad). [from 
> 17thc.]".
>  • according to OED[2]:  "In a text: an interval or blank between words, 
> lines, etc.; (Typography) any of several intervals or blanks of varying 
> widths used to separate words, justify lines, etc. Now also (in an electronic 
> or typewritten text): an interval or blank equivalent to one character, which 
> may be produced by pressing a specific key (cf. space bar n.)."

This is not to say that it was necessarily the best word, but that no-one would 
have failed to understand what we meant.

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] int_ref, ref spelling, no space between letter and number....

[Jo]

Karel, you are probably right, but the key to create such a blank is
commonly known as the space bar.

I would also remove the 'empty character' (Leerzeichen) here in Belgium.

In France it's consistently with a space, I guess they find it like that on
their signage.

Jo

Op za 11 aug. 2018 om 15:11 schreef Karel Adams :

> Excuse me for being pecky on language - for this once I feel free
> because language is (more or less) the subject matter anyway.
>
> Where @jakka writes "space", and @ruben neatly follows suit, I think the
> actual meaning is "blank".
>
> nl "spatie" => en "blank"
>
> en "space" => nl "ruimte"
>
> Not wanting to "score" any personal hits, just for the common good:
> allow me to recommend that English should only be used by those who
> master that subtle language really well. There is no reason for not
> posting in one's native language, on a list of regional importance such
> as this.
>
> Groeten :)
>
> Karel
>
>
> On 11/08/18 12:38, Ruben wrote:
> > Hi Frank,
> >
> > On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 21:06:54 +0200, Jakka  wrote:
> >> Where can I see and read what is the correct spelling of the E and
> other road network like A? Is there a space between the letter and number?
> >> The wiki pages
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/E-road_network and
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_E-road_network are not clear
> about that...
> >> See the mapillary
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vEtPrDgYQ9nVD2kfehABQg example: there
> are no spaces so should we adapt all those tags?
> > I believe our local refs are without space (so "A17", "R0", "N540"). Our
> signposting for international refs doesn't use a space either (E40), or
> sometimes a 'thin space' (E 40). I've never seen a full space (E 40).
> > On their site[1], the Flemish Agency for Roads and Traffic (AWV)
> consistently uses no space for both local and E refs. So I'd be inclined to
> say it's without space.
> >
> >> I see that most of int_ref is with space and ref and nat_ref without?
> But not always...
> > A few years ago, a French mapper came along and mechanically edited
> int_refs in Belgium. I asked them to stop but their changes were never
> fully reverted, so there are still int_refs with a space in Belgium.
> > I think it would be safe to remove the spaces mechanically, as it would
> actually be reverting an earlier unauthorized mechanical edit. What do you
> think?
> >
> > [1] https://wegenenverkeer.be/
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Ruben
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-be mailing list
> > Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
>
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] int_ref, ref spelling, no space between letter and number....

[Ruben]

On Sat, 11 Aug 2018 13:11:07 +, Karel Adams  wrote:
> Excuse me for being pecky on language - for this once I feel free 
> because language is (more or less) the subject matter anyway.

It's not – typography of road references is. Typography is distinct from 
language in general.

> Where @jakka writes "space", and @ruben neatly follows suit, I think the 
> actual meaning is "blank".
> 
> nl "spatie" => en "blank"
> 
> en "space" => nl "ruimte"

"Space" in English has well over 20 distinct meanings. One of them is
 • according to Wiktionary[1]: "(letterpress typography) A piece of metal type 
used to separate words, cast lower than other type so as not to take ink, 
especially one that is narrower than one en (compare quad). [from 17thc.]".
 • according to OED[2]:  "In a text: an interval or blank between words, lines, 
etc.; (Typography) any of several intervals or blanks of varying widths used to 
separate words, justify lines, etc. Now also (in an electronic or typewritten 
text): an interval or blank equivalent to one character, which may be produced 
by pressing a specific key (cf. space bar n.)."

> Not wanting to "score" any personal hits, just for the common good: 
> allow me to recommend that English should only be used by those who 
> master that subtle language really well.

What the fuck?

> There is no reason for not 
> posting in one's native language, on a list of regional importance such 
> as this.

There is: on this list the accepted standard is to use English, as a compromise 
between Dutch, French and German.

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/space#Noun item 3.4
[2] 
http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/185414?rskey=BIiqG4=1=false#eid21540226

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] int_ref, ref spelling, no space between letter and number....

[Karel Adams]

Excuse me for being pecky on language - for this once I feel free 
because language is (more or less) the subject matter anyway.


Where @jakka writes "space", and @ruben neatly follows suit, I think the 
actual meaning is "blank".


nl "spatie" => en "blank"

en "space" => nl "ruimte"

Not wanting to "score" any personal hits, just for the common good: 
allow me to recommend that English should only be used by those who 
master that subtle language really well. There is no reason for not 
posting in one's native language, on a list of regional importance such 
as this.


Groeten :)

Karel


On 11/08/18 12:38, Ruben wrote:

Hi Frank,

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 21:06:54 +0200, Jakka  wrote:

Where can I see and read what is the correct spelling of the E and other road 
network like A? Is there a space between the letter and number?
The wiki pages 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/E-road_network and 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_E-road_network are not clear about 
that...
See the mapillary https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vEtPrDgYQ9nVD2kfehABQg 
example: there are no spaces so should we adapt all those tags?

I believe our local refs are without space (so "A17", "R0", "N540"). Our 
signposting for international refs doesn't use a space either (E40), or sometimes a 'thin space' (E 40). I've 
never seen a full space (E 40).
On their site[1], the Flemish Agency for Roads and Traffic (AWV) consistently 
uses no space for both local and E refs. So I'd be inclined to say it's without 
space.


I see that most of int_ref is with space and ref and nat_ref without? But not 
always...

A few years ago, a French mapper came along and mechanically edited int_refs in 
Belgium. I asked them to stop but their changes were never fully reverted, so 
there are still int_refs with a space in Belgium.
I think it would be safe to remove the spaces mechanically, as it would 
actually be reverting an earlier unauthorized mechanical edit. What do you 
think?

[1] https://wegenenverkeer.be/

Cheers,
Ruben

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] int_ref, ref spelling, no space between letter and number....

[Ruben]

Hi Frank,

On Fri, 10 Aug 2018 21:06:54 +0200, Jakka  wrote:
> Where can I see and read what is the correct spelling of the E and other road 
> network like A? Is there a space between the letter and number?
> The wiki pages 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/E-road_network and 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_E-road_network are not clear 
> about that...
> See the mapillary https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/vEtPrDgYQ9nVD2kfehABQg 
> example: there are no spaces so should we adapt all those tags?

I believe our local refs are without space (so "A17", "R0", "N540"). Our 
signposting for international refs doesn't use a space either (E40), or 
sometimes a 'thin space' (E 40). I've never seen a full space (E 40).
On their site[1], the Flemish Agency for Roads and Traffic (AWV) consistently 
uses no space for both local and E refs. So I'd be inclined to say it's without 
space.

> I see that most of int_ref is with space and ref and nat_ref without? But not 
> always...

A few years ago, a French mapper came along and mechanically edited int_refs in 
Belgium. I asked them to stop but their changes were never fully reverted, so 
there are still int_refs with a space in Belgium.
I think it would be safe to remove the spaces mechanically, as it would 
actually be reverting an earlier unauthorized mechanical edit. What do you 
think?

[1] https://wegenenverkeer.be/

Cheers,
Ruben

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