Re: [Talk-ca] Adding Buildings + Leisure + Corrections To Ottawa Map Over Holiday Season
Hey Russell / all, I performed a rudimentary test of an address in the map without a postal code and later used the Nominatim to search for it to see what it produced. The address was 27 Cairo Street in St. John's, NL - I used this because it is an old address of mine and I know the postal code there without reference to Canada Post or the like. The result from Nominatim is A1B 3X9. The actual postal address is A1C 4X2 - a significant difference. I don't believe that the postal data in Geocoder is particularly accurate. Adam On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 6:11 PM, Stewart C. Russell scr...@gmail.com wrote: On 2014-12-23 12:27 PM, Richard Burcher wrote: - I've removed the mention of postcode collection. I'm not sure of the legal aspect of collection as raised in an earlier thread. I've found that if you add an address without a postal code, then query Nominatim later, it returns the postal code. I suspect geocoder.ca data is involved somewhere along the way. cheers Stewart ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
[Talk-ca] Postal Codes
Hey all, I was reading over the previous discussions held here regarding the issue of obtaining postal codes for use with civic addresses in Canada. I understand that, unless specific permission is obtained, there is no way to utilize the information stored in the Canada Post database, even if that information is manually acquired from the database during a lookup. The use is restricted to a very limited personal or business application - ie, I want to send a package and I use the database to get the postal code of the address. It initially appears odd that Canada Post would be very restrictive with the code data. I understand that they maintain consumer names with the address data, but the OSM project would not be seeking that connective data, just the bare address to attach to a civic or business address. Looking about their site, I eventually encountered this little gem --- https://www.canadapost.ca/cpo/mc/business/productsservices/mailing/pcdp.jsf It would appear that Canada Post sells a data product that is, effectively, the postal code data attached to a map. It is provided to businesses for the purposes of datamining, allowing them to hone their mailings or identify exploitable market areas. The cynic in me figures that this is the real reason that they won't give OSM the permission to use the data. Not for protection of the consumer or for privacy, but to make money. Fair enough - it is technically a business. Anyway, it would appear that obtaining the information from Canada Post is, basically, a dead end. Might I suggest an alternative? Why not a volunteer effort? I can't look up a code and reproduce it on the map, but I can surely put my own postal code and those of my previous addresses into the map. That knowledge has nothing to do with looking it up on their website. I also know the code for my small hometown in Newfoundland as I lived there for years and the entire town uses the same code. Perhaps there is a way to gather the information voluntarily from Canadian citizens and businesses. Basically go around them? For example, a survey on the Reddit forum for Canada could be asked or something like that. The more we can get without using the post office, the better. Business websites are easily some of the best sources - they offer their mail address without any restriction so that is fair use too. Just a thought! Adam ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Postal Codes
Hi All, Please have a look at David Eaves post on how Canada Post is prosecuting a person for crowdsourcing postal code data: http://eaves.ca/2013/04/25/canada-post-and-the-war-on-open-data-innovation-common-sense-continued-sadly/ Best, Matt On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 7:37 AM, Adam Martin s.adam.mar...@gmail.com wrote: Hey all, I was reading over the previous discussions held here regarding the issue of obtaining postal codes for use with civic addresses in Canada. I understand that, unless specific permission is obtained, there is no way to utilize the information stored in the Canada Post database, even if that information is manually acquired from the database during a lookup. The use is restricted to a very limited personal or business application - ie, I want to send a package and I use the database to get the postal code of the address. It initially appears odd that Canada Post would be very restrictive with the code data. I understand that they maintain consumer names with the address data, but the OSM project would not be seeking that connective data, just the bare address to attach to a civic or business address. Looking about their site, I eventually encountered this little gem --- https://www.canadapost.ca/cpo/mc/business/productsservices/mailing/pcdp.jsf It would appear that Canada Post sells a data product that is, effectively, the postal code data attached to a map. It is provided to businesses for the purposes of datamining, allowing them to hone their mailings or identify exploitable market areas. The cynic in me figures that this is the real reason that they won't give OSM the permission to use the data. Not for protection of the consumer or for privacy, but to make money. Fair enough - it is technically a business. Anyway, it would appear that obtaining the information from Canada Post is, basically, a dead end. Might I suggest an alternative? Why not a volunteer effort? I can't look up a code and reproduce it on the map, but I can surely put my own postal code and those of my previous addresses into the map. That knowledge has nothing to do with looking it up on their website. I also know the code for my small hometown in Newfoundland as I lived there for years and the entire town uses the same code. Perhaps there is a way to gather the information voluntarily from Canadian citizens and businesses. Basically go around them? For example, a survey on the Reddit forum for Canada could be asked or something like that. The more we can get without using the post office, the better. Business websites are easily some of the best sources - they offer their mail address without any restriction so that is fair use too. Just a thought! Adam ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca -- | Matthew Dance, M.A. |Urban Geography Planning | | 780.554.9222 | @mattdance | matthewdance.ca | ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Postal Codes
Totally, it's for money reasons :-( Le 2014-12-30 à 09:37, Adam Martin s.adam.mar...@gmail.com a écrit : Hey all, I was reading over the previous discussions held here regarding the issue of obtaining postal codes for use with civic addresses in Canada. I understand that, unless specific permission is obtained, there is no way to utilize the information stored in the Canada Post database, even if that information is manually acquired from the database during a lookup. The use is restricted to a very limited personal or business application - ie, I want to send a package and I use the database to get the postal code of the address. It initially appears odd that Canada Post would be very restrictive with the code data. I understand that they maintain consumer names with the address data, but the OSM project would not be seeking that connective data, just the bare address to attach to a civic or business address. Looking about their site, I eventually encountered this little gem --- https://www.canadapost.ca/cpo/mc/business/productsservices/mailing/pcdp.jsf It would appear that Canada Post sells a data product that is, effectively, the postal code data attached to a map. It is provided to businesses for the purposes of datamining, allowing them to hone their mailings or identify exploitable market areas. The cynic in me figures that this is the real reason that they won't give OSM the permission to use the data. Not for protection of the consumer or for privacy, but to make money. Fair enough - it is technically a business. Anyway, it would appear that obtaining the information from Canada Post is, basically, a dead end. Might I suggest an alternative? Why not a volunteer effort? I can't look up a code and reproduce it on the map, but I can surely put my own postal code and those of my previous addresses into the map. That knowledge has nothing to do with looking it up on their website. I also know the code for my small hometown in Newfoundland as I lived there for years and the entire town uses the same code. Perhaps there is a way to gather the information voluntarily from Canadian citizens and businesses. Basically go around them? For example, a survey on the Reddit forum for Canada could be asked or something like that. The more we can get without using the post office, the better. Business websites are easily some of the best sources - they offer their mail address without any restriction so that is fair use too. Just a thought! Adam ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Postal Codes
I believe gecoder.ca already provides a method to collect postal codes from citizens. I had a quick look at the website but it was not readily obvious to me. I have sent them an email and when I get the response I will share it here. Bernie. -- Bernie Connors New Maryland, NB div Original message /divdivFrom: Adam Martin s.adam.mar...@gmail.com /divdivDate:12-30-2014 10:37 AM (GMT-04:00) /divdivTo: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org /divdivSubject: [Talk-ca] Postal Codes /divdiv /divHey all, I was reading over the previous discussions held here regarding the issue of obtaining postal codes for use with civic addresses in Canada. I understand that, unless specific permission is obtained, there is no way to utilize the information stored in the Canada Post database, even if that information is manually acquired from the database during a lookup. The use is restricted to a very limited personal or business application - ie, I want to send a package and I use the database to get the postal code of the address. It initially appears odd that Canada Post would be very restrictive with the code data. I understand that they maintain consumer names with the address data, but the OSM project would not be seeking that connective data, just the bare address to attach to a civic or business address. Looking about their site, I eventually encountered this little gem --- https://www.canadapost.ca/cpo/mc/business/productsservices/mailing/pcdp.jsf It would appear that Canada Post sells a data product that is, effectively, the postal code data attached to a map. It is provided to businesses for the purposes of datamining, allowing them to hone their mailings or identify exploitable market areas. The cynic in me figures that this is the real reason that they won't give OSM the permission to use the data. Not for protection of the consumer or for privacy, but to make money. Fair enough - it is technically a business. Anyway, it would appear that obtaining the information from Canada Post is, basically, a dead end. Might I suggest an alternative? Why not a volunteer effort? I can't look up a code and reproduce it on the map, but I can surely put my own postal code and those of my previous addresses into the map. That knowledge has nothing to do with looking it up on their website. I also know the code for my small hometown in Newfoundland as I lived there for years and the entire town uses the same code. Perhaps there is a way to gather the information voluntarily from Canadian citizens and businesses. Basically go around them? For example, a survey on the Reddit forum for Canada could be asked or something like that. The more we can get without using the post office, the better. Business websites are easily some of the best sources - they offer their mail address without any restriction so that is fair use too. Just a thought! Adam ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Postal Codes
On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 7:37 AM, Adam Martin s.adam.mar...@gmail.com wrote: I was reading over the previous discussions held here regarding the issue of obtaining postal codes for use with civic addresses in Canada. I understand that, unless specific permission is obtained, there is no way to utilize the information stored in the Canada Post database, even if that information is manually acquired from the database during a lookup. Anyway, it would appear that obtaining the information from Canada Post is, basically, a dead end. Might I suggest an alternative? Why not a volunteer effort? I can't look up a code and reproduce it on the map, but I can surely put my own postal code and those of my previous addresses into the map. That knowledge has nothing to do with looking it up on their website. Here's where I have a hard time understanding how postal code information can ever be used in OSM. Who created the postal code information? The information can't be traced back to farmer Brown who lived on this lane in 1642, hence the road name Brown Lane. I believe Canada Post created the database, and defines which areas are within the bounds of a particular forward sortation area, local delivery unit. They can change these bounds as necessary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_codes_in_Canada Since OSM can't use any restricted information sources, and must rely on non-encumbered information, how can Canada Post postal code information ever be considered common knowledge or open data? If you look up my postal code, and put it on an envelope, when I receive that letter, and see my postal code, does it suddenly become public knowledge, and Canada Post loses the right to maintain control? If I print out a Google Map, and hand you that copy, does the Google Map data become non-encumbered? The only way to know the postal code for any specific location is to have at one point referenced the Canada Post database, either directly, or indirectly. Road names, town names etc. can be argued to precede the map databases in a number of cases, and have a legal right to be used. In current towns and cities, when the planners make up road names, it could be thought of that the designers hold the copyright on the road name database (if asserted). I don't see where a completely contrived database of information that is created and controlled by an entity which asserts copyright will ever be able to be used in an unencumbered manner, no matter how many times removed from accessing the database the data is derived. The idea of each person in Canada providing their specific postal code to an OSM database does not remove the hold which Canada Post asserts. It would be illegal for one person to copy the database as a whole, so why would it be legal for 30 million people to copy one piece of the database and pool that information? I love the idea of OSM and would like to see all data available and in use in the OSM database, but I've always had a hard time figuring out the line of distinction between encumbered and unencumbered information sources. James VE6SRV ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Postal Codes
Google maps already provides point-to-point postal codes. Wikipedia gives a list of all the postal codes. Is OSM trying to copy this feature? Immanuel On Dec 30, 2014 1:16 PM, James Ewen ve6...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 7:37 AM, Adam Martin s.adam.mar...@gmail.com wrote: I was reading over the previous discussions held here regarding the issue of obtaining postal codes for use with civic addresses in Canada. I understand that, unless specific permission is obtained, there is no way to utilize the information stored in the Canada Post database, even if that information is manually acquired from the database during a lookup. Anyway, it would appear that obtaining the information from Canada Post is, basically, a dead end. Might I suggest an alternative? Why not a volunteer effort? I can't look up a code and reproduce it on the map, but I can surely put my own postal code and those of my previous addresses into the map. That knowledge has nothing to do with looking it up on their website. Here's where I have a hard time understanding how postal code information can ever be used in OSM. Who created the postal code information? The information can't be traced back to farmer Brown who lived on this lane in 1642, hence the road name Brown Lane. I believe Canada Post created the database, and defines which areas are within the bounds of a particular forward sortation area, local delivery unit. They can change these bounds as necessary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_codes_in_Canada Since OSM can't use any restricted information sources, and must rely on non-encumbered information, how can Canada Post postal code information ever be considered common knowledge or open data? If you look up my postal code, and put it on an envelope, when I receive that letter, and see my postal code, does it suddenly become public knowledge, and Canada Post loses the right to maintain control? If I print out a Google Map, and hand you that copy, does the Google Map data become non-encumbered? The only way to know the postal code for any specific location is to have at one point referenced the Canada Post database, either directly, or indirectly. Road names, town names etc. can be argued to precede the map databases in a number of cases, and have a legal right to be used. In current towns and cities, when the planners make up road names, it could be thought of that the designers hold the copyright on the road name database (if asserted). I don't see where a completely contrived database of information that is created and controlled by an entity which asserts copyright will ever be able to be used in an unencumbered manner, no matter how many times removed from accessing the database the data is derived. The idea of each person in Canada providing their specific postal code to an OSM database does not remove the hold which Canada Post asserts. It would be illegal for one person to copy the database as a whole, so why would it be legal for 30 million people to copy one piece of the database and pool that information? I love the idea of OSM and would like to see all data available and in use in the OSM database, but I've always had a hard time figuring out the line of distinction between encumbered and unencumbered information sources. James VE6SRV ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Postal Codes
Nominatim uses a postal code database created by geocoder.ca. I presume they get periodic updates from geocoder.ca. If you find an address that is not properly geocoded by Nominatim (OSM) you can update the geocoder.ca database by entering the entire address including the postal code at http://geocoder.ca Here is a sample screen capture - http://goo.gl/UuX8Kr Bernie. On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 1:40 PM, berniejconnors berniejconn...@gmail.com wrote: I believe gecoder.ca already provides a method to collect postal codes from citizens. I had a quick look at the website but it was not readily obvious to me. I have sent them an email and when I get the response I will share it here. Bernie. -- Bernie Connors New Maryland, NB Original message From: Adam Martin Date:12-30-2014 10:37 AM (GMT-04:00) To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org Subject: [Talk-ca] Postal Codes Hey all, I was reading over the previous discussions held here regarding the issue of obtaining postal codes for use with civic addresses in Canada. I understand that, unless specific permission is obtained, there is no way to utilize the information stored in the Canada Post database, even if that information is manually acquired from the database during a lookup. The use is restricted to a very limited personal or business application - ie, I want to send a package and I use the database to get the postal code of the address. It initially appears odd that Canada Post would be very restrictive with the code data. I understand that they maintain consumer names with the address data, but the OSM project would not be seeking that connective data, just the bare address to attach to a civic or business address. Looking about their site, I eventually encountered this little gem --- https://www.canadapost.ca/cpo/mc/business/productsservices/mailing/pcdp.jsf It would appear that Canada Post sells a data product that is, effectively, the postal code data attached to a map. It is provided to businesses for the purposes of datamining, allowing them to hone their mailings or identify exploitable market areas. The cynic in me figures that this is the real reason that they won't give OSM the permission to use the data. Not for protection of the consumer or for privacy, but to make money. Fair enough - it is technically a business. Anyway, it would appear that obtaining the information from Canada Post is, basically, a dead end. Might I suggest an alternative? Why not a volunteer effort? I can't look up a code and reproduce it on the map, but I can surely put my own postal code and those of my previous addresses into the map. That knowledge has nothing to do with looking it up on their website. I also know the code for my small hometown in Newfoundland as I lived there for years and the entire town uses the same code. Perhaps there is a way to gather the information voluntarily from Canadian citizens and businesses. Basically go around them? For example, a survey on the Reddit forum for Canada could be asked or something like that. The more we can get without using the post office, the better. Business websites are easily some of the best sources - they offer their mail address without any restriction so that is fair use too. Just a thought! Adam -- Bernie Connors New Maryland, NB ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Adding Buildings + Leisure + Corrections To Ottawa Map Over Holiday Season
One thing to remember about postal codes is that they are a delivery mechanism first and foremost. Unless Canada Post has changed things, they don’t have a location, per se, because they’re based on postal walks (the route the postman walks). Most postal codes refer to something like 11 dwellings, except in the cases of large volume receivers (apartment buildings and large commercial receivers) and rural postal codes, so any spatial reference is rarely going to be 100% spatially accurate. Cheers! --G From: Adam Martin [mailto:s.adam.mar...@gmail.com] Sent: December 30, 2014 9:31 AM To: Stewart C. Russell Cc: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Adding Buildings + Leisure + Corrections To Ottawa Map Over Holiday Season Hey Russell / all, I performed a rudimentary test of an address in the map without a postal code and later used the Nominatim to search for it to see what it produced. The address was 27 Cairo Street in St. John's, NL - I used this because it is an old address of mine and I know the postal code there without reference to Canada Post or the like. The result from Nominatim is A1B 3X9. The actual postal address is A1C 4X2 - a significant difference. I don't believe that the postal data in Geocoder is particularly accurate. Adam On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 6:11 PM, Stewart C. Russell scr...@gmail.com mailto:scr...@gmail.com wrote: On 2014-12-23 12:27 PM, Richard Burcher wrote: - I've removed the mention of postcode collection. I'm not sure of the legal aspect of collection as raised in an earlier thread. I've found that if you add an address without a postal code, then query Nominatim later, it returns the postal code. I suspect geocoder.ca http://geocoder.ca data is involved somewhere along the way. cheers Stewart ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
