Re: [Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[James]

I have answered most of your concerns Stewart on the wiki. I will continue
later today when I'm awake

On Oct 20, 2016 1:04 AM, "Denis Carriere"  wrote:

> Stewart,
>
> The process was a success for me, the only issue was the data was bad...
> I've been involved in importing some of the GNS data and it was a great set
> up Pierre and other OSM members set up.
>
> Bad data goes in, bad data comes out.
>
> Thankfully we have good data provided by the City of Ottawa that was
> created by GIS professionals.
>
> On Oct 20, 2016 12:54 AM, "Stewart C. Russell"  wrote:
>
>> Hi Denis,
>>
>> > There's been countless amounts of Tasking Manager's that have been set
>> > up for importing GNS (towns & villages) in Africa, I believe all of them
>> > were only point data and have been very successful.
>>
>> While it's not a reflection on tasking manager, the African village GNS
>> import recently made “Worst of OSM”: “Look at these nicely arranged
>> Nigerian villages”
>> > e-nicely-arranged-nigerian-villages>.
>> There's no way that these villages are arranged in nice neat rows and
>> columns exactly one minute of arc apart …
>>
>>  cheers,
>>  Stewart
>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[Denis Carriere]

Stewart,

The process was a success for me, the only issue was the data was bad...
I've been involved in importing some of the GNS data and it was a great set
up Pierre and other OSM members set up.

Bad data goes in, bad data comes out.

Thankfully we have good data provided by the City of Ottawa that was
created by GIS professionals.

On Oct 20, 2016 12:54 AM, "Stewart C. Russell"  wrote:

> Hi Denis,
>
> > There's been countless amounts of Tasking Manager's that have been set
> > up for importing GNS (towns & villages) in Africa, I believe all of them
> > were only point data and have been very successful.
>
> While it's not a reflection on tasking manager, the African village GNS
> import recently made “Worst of OSM”: “Look at these nicely arranged
> Nigerian villages”
>  these-nicely-arranged-nigerian-villages>.
> There's no way that these villages are arranged in nice neat rows and
> columns exactly one minute of arc apart …
>
>  cheers,
>  Stewart
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] [Imports] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[Stewart C. Russell]

Please note my comments/concerns on the process here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan

copied below —


Initial Comments on Plan

It would be helpful if the plan were structured more like the Los
Angeles, California/Buildings Import

documentation. While it's not perfect (relying too much on off-OSM
resource like github), it does break up the documentation into helpful
sections.


  Commitment to follow the rules

Please ensure that any documentation contains a commitment to follow the
Import/Guidelines
 and Automated
Edits code of conduct
.
These are non-negotiable parts of participation in OSM imports. The
Ottawa import very definitely falls under the definition of an Automated
Edit.

As previous activities have been flagged by the Data working group
, it should be
assumed that every edit will now be watched and critiqued from afar.


  Licence

While it is generally considered that OGL-CA is acceptable to OSM, the
lingering third-party waiver issue is troubling. As the City of Ottawa
almost certainly relied on third parties to collect and correct the
data, what efforts have the importers made to ensure that OSMF would not
face legal claims if a third party could prove that their proprietary
data was mixed in with the import?

Please document the “considerable effort and research [that] was made to
ensure the licensing was correct”.


  Data permission

Please note that the Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Permission

link refers to incompatible data. You may wish to seek updated
permissions. All imports pre-dating the licence change (mid September
2016)

should be reverted, as they were done without following the import rules.


  Data availability

Please post a link to the original outline data and licence file. I
can't support an import of data that we can't inspect.


  Data schema

Please indicate how you will map the fields from the source data to OSM
tags. This is a very important part of the process, as it allows users
with import experience to make helpful suggestions.


  Data quality

If you wish to delete existing buildings, please prove that the city's
data is better. We've run into this problem before in Canada:
municipalities want to work with us, but only if we overwrite community
data with municipal GIS data. We couldn't accept that, as their data is
never better in all ways.


  Data deletion

While you will likely be able to show that some imported outlines are
more accurate than existing tracings, please don't delete/overwrite
community contributions. Also, under *no* circumstances delete anything
other than bad building outlines or erroneous address points. The
reverted import deleted Address Interpolation
 ways
(example: Way History: 69590585
) that other OSM
users rely upon.


  Process comments

  *

The three stage “Import Buildings/Import Addresses/Merge Addresses”
process appears cumbersome. Could the import and merge stages be
combined offsite, rather than adding lots of edit history?

  *

What steps are you taking to avoid address point duplication? Other
municipal imports may have addressed this and have tools available
to help.

  *

Is it correct to assume that address points outside a building can
be moved over a building?


  OSMCanada

I'm unfamiliar with this term. Who are OSMCanada? Do they claim special
standing? I do hope that no representations have been made to the City
of Ottawa or Statistics Canada that “OSMCanada” have authority to import
data or speak for OSM process beyond being who we all are: just some
people who happen to contribute to OSM.


  How can we help?

The Ottawa/Gatineau import pilot shows great potential. With wider
community discussion, it could be a paragon of OSM/Government
interaction. How can we help move this process along after community
concerns are addressed? --Scruss
 (talk
) 04:23, 20
October 2016 (UTC)



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Re: [Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[Stewart C. Russell]

Hi Denis,

> There's been countless amounts of Tasking Manager's that have been set
> up for importing GNS (towns & villages) in Africa, I believe all of them
> were only point data and have been very successful.

While it's not a reflection on tasking manager, the African village GNS
import recently made “Worst of OSM”: “Look at these nicely arranged
Nigerian villages”
.
There's no way that these villages are arranged in nice neat rows and
columns exactly one minute of arc apart …

 cheers,
 Stewart

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Re: [Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[Denis Carriere]

Hey Steve,

James already answered a few of your comments, however I can expand a bit
more on one of your questions/comment about the TM and the OSM tiles.


> Are there examples of tasking manager coordinated building imports that
> the community considers a success? If so how does this plan compare to what
> has worked well. (This isn't specifically directed at James)
> I haven't yet looked at samples of the .OSM files


There's been countless amounts of Tasking Manager's that have been set up
for importing GNS (towns & villages) in Africa, I believe all of them were
only point data and have been very successful.

This task is attempting to import polygon datatypes which can be very
problematic for tile based semi-manual imports.

Anyone who's ever attempting to pre-process GIS data into individual tiles
knows how much a pain it can become, especially when you have a large
dataset and multiple scales (zoom 13-14-15).

Since we are trying to integrate the data directly into the Tasking
Manager, we want the users to be able to split the tiles in the event that
the individual task is too large, this is why we wanted to have the data
dynamic.

Using a lot of awesome tools created by Mapbox such as tippecanoe
 [0] & turfjs  [1]
& geojson2osm. We are able to dynamically create OSM tiles for the Tasking
manager by simply creating a simple Vector Tile dataset (.mbtiles) and
using our Micro Data Service[2] which was created by OSMCanada.

This web based service creates a set of URL's that can be loaded into the
Tasking Manager or downloaded manually.

*URL Schemas*

https://data.osmcanada.ca/{z}/{x}/{y}/.(osm|geojson)
https://data.osmcanada.ca/15/9501/21037/ottawa-buildings.osm
https://data.osmcanada.ca/15/9501/21037/ottawa-buildings.geojson

Add this URL in *Extra Instructions* for your Tasking Manager

http://localhost:8111/import?new_layer=true=https://
data.osmcanada.ca/{z}/{x}/{y}/ottawa-buildings.osm

Let me know if anyone needs more details or want to test out a dataset of
their own, the only input required is a GeoJSON.

Cheers,

[0]: https://github.com/mapbox/tippecanoe
[1]: http://turfjs.org/
[2]: https://github.com/osmottawa/micro-data-service

*~~*
*Denis Carriere*
*GIS Software & Systems Specialist*

*Twitter: @DenisCarriere *
*OSM: DenisCarriere *
GitHub: DenisCarriere 
Email: carriere.de...@gmail.com

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Steve Singer  wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Oct 2016, James wrote:
>
> Seems like a good enough time like any other to talk about the import of
>> Ottawa buildings and addresses
>> into OpenStreetMap.
>>
>> Documentation is available here:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan
>>
>
> A few comments
>
> * Replacing Building Geometries - I don't like the policy of replacing
> existing building geometries with imported ones.  I feel that large scale
> replacement of hand traced work with automated/imported work will
> discourage future mappers.  Also sometimes which is 'better' is a matter of
> opinion and if a few mappers are replacing hundreds or thousands of
> buildings in a short period of time it is hard to have discussion on an
> individual building basis.   I don't have issues with a mapper manually
> changing or replacing the geometries but the bulk non-traced nature
> concerns me. I have heard numerous complaints over the years from mappers
> who traced lakes manually only to see them replaced by canvec imported
> lakes.
>
> * Notes - How many 'What is the address of this house?' notes do we think
> this is going to generate? Adding a few dozen notes in the Ottawa area
> isn't an issue but if this process adds hundreds of notes that require
> manual survey then I'm not sure that is better than just skipping the
> address(but this could be discussed)
>
> I think the import plan needs to talk more about what the expected
> 'quality' is. I am not talking about the quality of the data but the
> quality of the merging
>
> For example:
> * Do we expect that before uploading a tile all JOSM validator errors get
> cleared on the objects being uploaded?
> * If an existing object such as a road, alley or stream runs through the
> geometry of the building then will the pre-upload validation process
> require that this be fixed
>
>
> Part of the problem with the Canvec imports is that quality is very much a
> factor of who imported a tile in a particular area.  We never really came
> up with minimum standards for the validation and repair requirements. I
> think a checklist of specific types of problems that we expect will need
> correcting/validating by the person uploading the tile would help
>
>
> The plan also talks about using post upload validation tools like Osmose.
>
> Is the proposed workflow something along the lines of
> 1) Grab a .osm 

Re: [Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[James]

Steve, the only replacement, is if ottawa's geometry is better. There are a
lot of buildings in Ottawa that are CanVec 6.0 which is ancient! Not to
mention pretty crumby/blocky.

As for manually mapped buildings like stittsville(AJ Ashton's buildings)
just re-align it as they offset to bing(2-10meters off) in the most cases

Osmose is a tool we can use to further validate that our data on the map,
it's not ment to be an after thought. JOSM errors should be cleared before
uploading(we don't need to burdon these problems on new mappers: see canvec
errors). Yes I do believe if there's a river going through a house(there
isnt by the way) it should be corrected. This will also lead to a map with
less errors on it. Expected errors that might occur are self intersecting
ways(there's often a small tail pointing in wards to the building then
coming back on the same node) I'm not sure if this is like a trap street
for the data(to avoid unauthorised copying) as it is present once or twice
in about 70% of the tiles.

Of the tiles I've faced with my 2 other collegues, there were only 2-3 that
may need surveying not hundreds. The major issue with addresses is
placement in the backyard and not directly on the building (big back yards
or parks might have 2-3 nodes spread over the parcel, but is still accurate.

There are no more tiles in OSM that would be considered a success as
currently woodpecker(Frederik Ramm) is reverting the all of them.

The people that will be dealing with the import are expert level mappers.
One of them works in the GIS field  another sells satelite imagery. Myself,
I am on the programming side of things and have been mapping for many
years(have dealt with importing canvec data and clearing errors).
Johnwhelan(expert mapper and frequent contributor to HOT tasks) has also
offered to help with the validation process.

As the documentation states, this import will be handled by the OSMCanada
team and a few expert mappers if they wish to join. We are not picking a
day one mapper and expecting him to know what has to be done.

Once the data has been imported building footprints and addresses with
coincide together(no backyard addresses) and will provide us with more
accurate routing/geolocalization power

On Oct 19, 2016 9:59 PM, "Steve Singer"  wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Oct 2016, James wrote:
>
> Seems like a good enough time like any other to talk about the import of
>> Ottawa buildings and addresses
>> into OpenStreetMap.
>>
>> Documentation is available here:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan
>>
>
> A few comments
>
> * Replacing Building Geometries - I don't like the policy of replacing
> existing building geometries with imported ones.  I feel that large scale
> replacement of hand traced work with automated/imported work will
> discourage future mappers.  Also sometimes which is 'better' is a matter of
> opinion and if a few mappers are replacing hundreds or thousands of
> buildings in a short period of time it is hard to have discussion on an
> individual building basis.   I don't have issues with a mapper manually
> changing or replacing the geometries but the bulk non-traced nature
> concerns me. I have heard numerous complaints over the years from mappers
> who traced lakes manually only to see them replaced by canvec imported
> lakes.
>
> * Notes - How many 'What is the address of this house?' notes do we think
> this is going to generate? Adding a few dozen notes in the Ottawa area
> isn't an issue but if this process adds hundreds of notes that require
> manual survey then I'm not sure that is better than just skipping the
> address(but this could be discussed)
>
> I think the import plan needs to talk more about what the expected
> 'quality' is. I am not talking about the quality of the data but the
> quality of the merging
>
> For example:
> * Do we expect that before uploading a tile all JOSM validator errors get
> cleared on the objects being uploaded?
> * If an existing object such as a road, alley or stream runs through the
> geometry of the building then will the pre-upload validation process
> require that this be fixed
>
>
> Part of the problem with the Canvec imports is that quality is very much a
> factor of who imported a tile in a particular area.  We never really came
> up with minimum standards for the validation and repair requirements. I
> think a checklist of specific types of problems that we expect will need
> correcting/validating by the person uploading the tile would help
>
>
> The plan also talks about using post upload validation tools like Osmose.
>
> Is the proposed workflow something along the lines of
> 1) Grab a .osm tile with buildings
> 2) Work in JOSM to address any issues the importer finds by eyeballing
> things or using the validator
> 3) Upload
> 4) Pick another tile repeat
> 5) Once there are no more tiles left check Osmose and other tools
>
> I think it would be better to fix all the issues with 

Re: [Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[Steve Singer]

On Wed, 19 Oct 2016, James wrote:


Seems like a good enough time like any other to talk about the import of Ottawa 
buildings and addresses
into OpenStreetMap.

Documentation is available here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan


A few comments

* Replacing Building Geometries - I don't like the policy of replacing 
existing building geometries with imported ones.  I feel that large scale 
replacement of hand traced work with automated/imported work will discourage 
future mappers.  Also sometimes which is 'better' is a matter of opinion and 
if a few mappers are replacing hundreds or thousands of buildings in a short 
period of time it is hard to have discussion on an individual building 
basis.   I don't have issues with a mapper manually changing or replacing 
the geometries but the bulk non-traced nature concerns me. I have 
heard numerous complaints over the years from mappers who traced lakes 
manually only to see them replaced by canvec imported lakes.


* Notes - How many 'What is the address of this house?' notes do we think 
this is going to generate? Adding a few dozen notes in the Ottawa area isn't an 
issue but if this process adds hundreds of notes that require manual survey 
then I'm not sure that is better than just skipping the address(but 
this could be discussed)


I think the import plan needs to talk more about what the expected 'quality' 
is. I am not talking about the quality of the data but the quality of the 
merging


For example:
* Do we expect that before uploading a tile all JOSM validator errors get 
cleared on the objects being uploaded?
* If an existing object such as a road, alley or stream runs through the 
geometry of the building then will the pre-upload validation process require 
that this be fixed



Part of the problem with the Canvec imports is that quality is very much a 
factor of who imported a tile in a particular area.  We never really came up 
with minimum standards for the validation and repair requirements. I think a 
checklist of specific types of problems that we expect will need 
correcting/validating by the person uploading the tile would help



The plan also talks about using post upload validation tools like Osmose.

Is the proposed workflow something along the lines of
1) Grab a .osm tile with buildings
2) Work in JOSM to address any issues the importer finds by eyeballing 
things or using the validator

3) Upload
4) Pick another tile repeat
5) Once there are no more tiles left check Osmose and other tools

I think it would be better to fix all the issues with the footprints in the 
first tile before moving onto a second tile.


Are there examples of tasking manager coordinated building imports that the 
community considers a success? If so how does this plan compare to what has 
worked well. (This isn't specifically directed at James)




I haven't yet looked at samples of the .OSM files


Steve





Discussion with local mappers has happened in person for multiple 
months(community buy in is very high in
these meetings and we all saw benefit in including this data) :
https://www.meetup.com/openstreetmap-ottawa/

Once positive discussion of a period of 2 weeks has been met, we would like to 
start the import of said
data.

Thank you.






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Re: [Talk-ca] [Imports] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[James]

If you really need source data it will be available when the goverment
makes up their mind where to host it. If you need it we have it in GeoJSON
format here:
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/addxy.com/ottawa-buildings.geojson

Original file shouldn't matter anyways as it's full of errors to begin with.

As for addresses we have used a set of internal tools(available on github)
to rename and de-retard the original shape file like:
https://github.com/osmottawa/etl2osm
I also have a .net application at work that can do the same processing.

When we were doing the import (was 96% complete before being reverted) at
no point did I see any address that couldn't be determined with the help of
Bing and Mapbox satelite imagery combined. This is why we are working with
experienced users, not mappers that started yesterday. This is why we have
it under risks with a mitigation:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan#Risks
The advantage of working with the local mappers is that if they need a
survey to fix data before import.

Building geometry is compared to properly offset Bing or Mapbox imagery,
which can be aligned using the building data as it is properly aligned and
traced from 30cm imagery dead overhead and not at a 5-20 degree incline
like a lot of satellite imagery.

This is not a pump and dump operation. Every tile tasked via the tasking
manager will be corrected of 1. Errors (JOSM Validator) 2. Addresses will
be properly set overhead of building(buildings that might need terracing)
or merged (single buildings and simpler terracing). *IN NO WAY SHAPE OR
FORM IS THIS A AUTOMATED IMPORT*. It is more like a HOT task, using data
available to us. Errors will be corrected before upload to OSM and before
marking a tile as "done" or "validated"

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Christoph Hormann 
wrote:

> On Wednesday 19 October 2016, James wrote:
> > Ok, Christoph now that I am at a proper computer I can address your
> > comments:
> > [...]
>
> Thanks for the additional information.  Based on this i modify my
> comments, what i am still missing is:
>
> - link to the source data for the buildings
> - information on attribute and geometry processing - this refers to how
> the source data is processed to generate the OSM files.  Based on the
> address data this is clearly non-trivial and needs further explanation
> (expansion of abbreviations, conversion of upper case names).
> - information on what you actually intend to import - please forgive me
> for not taking the time to scrape every data tile from
> data.osmcanada.ca to determine the extent of the data.
>
> Additional notes:
>
> - the address data is clearly not ready for import in the current form,
> it contains lots of duplicate addresses and positions seem pretty far
> off in some cases, often too far to be properly matched with buildings
> without on-the-ground inspection.
>
> - the building geometries contain various flaws like poor
> orthogonalization, overlaps and impossible geometries like here:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.32737/-75.70919
>
> and systematic errors like here:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.32802/-75.71617
>
> - it is unclear how you intend to determine which building geometry is
> more accurate if there is already data in OSM.
>
> > If you are just going to skim over documentation, what is the point
> > of creating it?
>
> The purpose is to document the import to allow mappers to look up how
> this particular import is done.  If finding out a specific detail about
> it - like for example to determine how the value of a certain tag is
> determined or which area exactly is affected by the import - requires
> you to read the full text from top to bottom, it does not fulfill this
> purpose that well.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[john whelan]

*And since the introductory paragraph on that page indicates there are*
*organizations involved in the planning of this (Stats Canada and City*
*of Ottawa) it would be important to know who of those involved in the*
*import is acting in a professional capacity for one of these*
*organizations** and what their interest is in the matter.*

My personal interpretation.

Stats Canada is attempting to involve the public in mapping some
characteristics of non residential buildings in a pilot project in Ottawa
Gatineau.  They were instrumental in identifying the data that the City of
Ottawa held and made a request to the City asking if it could be made
available.  Stats Canada's interest is in making the task of new
crowdsourcing mappers as simple as possible and with the local OSM group
there is concern about the quality of buildings drawn in iD by new mappers
in HOT for example.

The City Of Ottawa merely provided the data under their Open Data licence.
They will probably be interested in the final results of the survey.

Neither organisation is involved in the import directly.

The advantage to OpenStreetMap if the Stats Canada pilot is successful is
we can expect a number of new mappers.

Cheerio John
On 19 Oct 2016 4:59 pm, "James"  wrote:

> Ok, Christoph now that I am at a proper computer I can address your
> comments:
>
> *- no link to the source data*
>
> Have you read the background or just skimmed over it? There is a debate
> from StatsCan and the City of Ottawa where the building footprints should
> be hosted(Ottawa open data portal, StatsCan website, Federal Goverment open
> data portal) so until then it will not be available to the public. The
> address data file IS available here: http://data.ottawa.ca/dataset/
> addresspoints Which I will add to the documentation
>
> *- no information on what data you actually intend to import*
>
> Really? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:
> Ottawa/Import/Plan#Import_Data
> "The data used for this import is are two datasets cleaned up by the
> OSMCanada team one containing building outlines and the other address
> points."
> Seems descriptive enough to what we are importing to me. Addresses and
> Building footprints.
>
> *- no information on attribute and geometry processing*
>
> Under risks and mitigation (https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan#Risks), says what will happen
> if a building exists what to do. Replace geometry just replaces the way so
> by definition attributes are copied over.
>
> *- no link to the processed data*
>
> Please see: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:
> Ottawa/Import/Plan#Import_Data there is in *bold:* *Data source site*
> which tells you where the processed data can be accessed. Example for
> buildings (in Metcalfe(which is a part of Ottawa))https://data.
> osmcanada.ca/13/2378/5252/ottawa-buildings.osm?area=350 and for the
> addresses: https://data.osmcanada.ca/13/2378/5252/ottawa-address.osm
>
>
>
>
>
> *And since the introductory paragraph on that page indicates there are
> organizations involved in the planning of this (Stats Canada and City of
> Ottawa) it would be important to know who of those involved in the import
> is acting in a professional capacity for one of these organizations and
> what their interest is in the matter.*
>
> I can add points of contact to the documentation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *If this represents the current state of preparation the planned two weeks
> time until starting the import seems unrealistic.  You need to complete
> your plans and preparation to a point where they can be properly assessed
> before you can ask for a review here and then you need to allocate
> sufficient time afterwards for people to review and to make adjustments
> based on the results.*
> If you are just going to skim over documentation, what is the point of
> creating it?
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 4:28 PM, john whelan 
> wrote:
>
>> There were a couple of fairly critical dates that happened in the
>> background.  The first was Stats Canada wanting to announce they had gone
>> live on October 17th that date was internal to them and only finalised very
>> late in the day, the other was the Open Data license, we've been working
>> with the City of Ottawa and Treasury Board to come up with something that
>> was acceptable to OSM, TB did a lot of work on the licence with many
>> international organisations following a meeting I was at about four or five
>> years ago now where we identified there was a problem.
>>
>> Stats Canada did announce a while back what they were looking for and
>> local OSM mappers have been adding tags but they wanted to use a customised
>> version of iD and there have been some undocumented features turned up in
>> the customisation.  So yes it went live October 17th but a week or two
>> before they were not 100% certain everything would be in place.
>>
>> TB's license is fine and other 

Re: [Talk-ca] [Imports] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[James]

Bjenk said he will send me the agreement Friday when he's back at the
office that will clear us for use of the data.

On Oct 19, 2016 5:01 PM, "James"  wrote:

> I will contact Bjenk to get the agreement between StatsCan and the city of
> Ottawa and update the permission as they have previously discussed
> licensing in OpenStreetMap with Ottawa's data and the result was that it
> was compatible
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Paul Norman  wrote:
>
>> On 10/19/2016 12:53 PM, James wrote:
>>
>> Does this count Paul?
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Im
>>> port/Permission
>>>
>>> As its in the plan
>>>
>>>
>> This is all about the old terms of use, not the current license, and does
>> not clearly give us permission to redistribute their data under the ODbL.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Imports mailing list
>> impo...@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports
>>
>
>
>
> --
> 外に遊びに行こう！
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] [Imports] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[James]

I will contact Bjenk to get the agreement between StatsCan and the city of
Ottawa and update the permission as they have previously discussed
licensing in OpenStreetMap with Ottawa's data and the result was that it
was compatible

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Paul Norman  wrote:

> On 10/19/2016 12:53 PM, James wrote:
>
> Does this count Paul?
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/
>> Import/Permission
>>
>> As its in the plan
>>
>>
> This is all about the old terms of use, not the current license, and does
> not clearly give us permission to redistribute their data under the ODbL.
>
>
> ___
> Imports mailing list
> impo...@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports
>



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Re: [Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[James]

Ok, Christoph now that I am at a proper computer I can address your
comments:

*- no link to the source data*

Have you read the background or just skimmed over it? There is a debate
from StatsCan and the City of Ottawa where the building footprints should
be hosted(Ottawa open data portal, StatsCan website, Federal Goverment open
data portal) so until then it will not be available to the public. The
address data file IS available here:
http://data.ottawa.ca/dataset/addresspoints Which I will add to the
documentation

*- no information on what data you actually intend to import*

Really?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan#Import_Data
"The data used for this import is are two datasets cleaned up by the
OSMCanada team one containing building outlines and the other address
points."
Seems descriptive enough to what we are importing to me. Addresses and
Building footprints.

*- no information on attribute and geometry processing*

Under risks and mitigation (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan#Risks),
says what will happen if a building exists what to do. Replace geometry
just replaces the way so by definition attributes are copied over.

*- no link to the processed data*

Please see:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan#Import_Data
there is in *bold:* *Data source site* which tells you where the processed
data can be accessed. Example for buildings (in Metcalfe(which is a part of
Ottawa))https://data.osmcanada.ca/13/2378/5252/ottawa-buildings.osm?area=350
and for the addresses:
https://data.osmcanada.ca/13/2378/5252/ottawa-address.osm





*And since the introductory paragraph on that page indicates there are
organizations involved in the planning of this (Stats Canada and City of
Ottawa) it would be important to know who of those involved in the import
is acting in a professional capacity for one of these organizations and
what their interest is in the matter.*

I can add points of contact to the documentation









*If this represents the current state of preparation the planned two weeks
time until starting the import seems unrealistic.  You need to complete
your plans and preparation to a point where they can be properly assessed
before you can ask for a review here and then you need to allocate
sufficient time afterwards for people to review and to make adjustments
based on the results.*
If you are just going to skim over documentation, what is the point of
creating it?

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 4:28 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> There were a couple of fairly critical dates that happened in the
> background.  The first was Stats Canada wanting to announce they had gone
> live on October 17th that date was internal to them and only finalised very
> late in the day, the other was the Open Data license, we've been working
> with the City of Ottawa and Treasury Board to come up with something that
> was acceptable to OSM, TB did a lot of work on the licence with many
> international organisations following a meeting I was at about four or five
> years ago now where we identified there was a problem.
>
> Stats Canada did announce a while back what they were looking for and
> local OSM mappers have been adding tags but they wanted to use a customised
> version of iD and there have been some undocumented features turned up in
> the customisation.  So yes it went live October 17th but a week or two
> before they were not 100% certain everything would be in place.
>
> TB's license is fine and other imports have been done in Canada using it.
> We knew the City of Ottawa was about to change its license to align with
> the TB one, again we've been working with them for the last three years but
> it needed a formal approval and during the summer it wasn't possible to
> find the appropriate people to get it formally passed and until it was
> formally passed we couldn't use their data.  I sensed a feeling of
> frustration in the City of Ottawa by some of their staff.  Plan B was Stats
> would put it up on the TB Open Data portal.
>
> So yes it has all been planned for some time and there has been a sense of
> what another delay with the local mappers but the data only became
> available under the correct license very recently and I think there was a
> bit of rush to get the import done after all the twiddling of thumbs.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 19 October 2016 at 14:59, Alan Richards  wrote:
>
>> I like it overall. Nice to see more quality data being added, and I'm
>> personally pretty pro-import generally.
>>
>> However, just from following this list, I was surprised that the import
>> was suddenly being done. I recall seeing messages about the possibility of
>> a project, and it sounded like it was slowly moving forward, but there
>> wasn't a lot of activity. It is clear now that a lot of the discussion was
>> happening offline at local meetups. To me this is fine with an 

Re: [Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[john whelan]

There were a couple of fairly critical dates that happened in the
background.  The first was Stats Canada wanting to announce they had gone
live on October 17th that date was internal to them and only finalised very
late in the day, the other was the Open Data license, we've been working
with the City of Ottawa and Treasury Board to come up with something that
was acceptable to OSM, TB did a lot of work on the licence with many
international organisations following a meeting I was at about four or five
years ago now where we identified there was a problem.

Stats Canada did announce a while back what they were looking for and local
OSM mappers have been adding tags but they wanted to use a customised
version of iD and there have been some undocumented features turned up in
the customisation.  So yes it went live October 17th but a week or two
before they were not 100% certain everything would be in place.

TB's license is fine and other imports have been done in Canada using it.
We knew the City of Ottawa was about to change its license to align with
the TB one, again we've been working with them for the last three years but
it needed a formal approval and during the summer it wasn't possible to
find the appropriate people to get it formally passed and until it was
formally passed we couldn't use their data.  I sensed a feeling of
frustration in the City of Ottawa by some of their staff.  Plan B was Stats
would put it up on the TB Open Data portal.

So yes it has all been planned for some time and there has been a sense of
what another delay with the local mappers but the data only became
available under the correct license very recently and I think there was a
bit of rush to get the import done after all the twiddling of thumbs.

Cheerio John

On 19 October 2016 at 14:59, Alan Richards  wrote:

> I like it overall. Nice to see more quality data being added, and I'm
> personally pretty pro-import generally.
>
> However, just from following this list, I was surprised that the import
> was suddenly being done. I recall seeing messages about the possibility of
> a project, and it sounded like it was slowly moving forward, but there
> wasn't a lot of activity. It is clear now that a lot of the discussion was
> happening offline at local meetups. To me this is fine with an active
> community like Ottawa has, but perhaps the fact that this was going on
> should have been shared back to the mailing list to show the progress that
> was happening. The fact that a tasking manager was actually running and
> data being imported and verified was quite a surprise, and obviously then
> led to the unwanted revert.
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, John Marshall  wrote:
>
>> Looks good to me.
>>
>> I only would add if there are multiple buildings and it is not not clear
>> what  the correct address are, local survey may be required. Then add a
>> note like this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/741666
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, john whelan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> A comment the data is of high quality and the building outlines are of
>>> particular interest to the Stats Canada Project where Statistics Canada is
>>> attempting to crowd source adding tags added to non residential buildings
>>> within the City of Ottawa and Gatineau.  These include the number of levels
>>> and the use of the building.  They will be suggesting using a customised iD
>>> to their general public but given the experience of iD mapping buildings in
>>> HOT it was thought that importing the building outlines would give a better
>>> quality map at the end.
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>> On 19 October 2016 at 13:45, James  wrote:
>>>
 Seems like a good enough time like any other to talk about the import
 of Ottawa buildings and addresses into OpenStreetMap.

 Documentation is available here:
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan

 Discussion with local mappers has happened in person for multiple
 months(community buy in is very high in these meetings and we all saw
 benefit in including this data) :
 https://www.meetup.com/openstreetmap-ottawa/

 Once positive discussion of a period of 2 weeks has been met, we would
 like to start the import of said data.

 Thank you.


 ___
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 Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca


>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[Alan Richards]

I like it overall. Nice to see more quality data being added, and I'm
personally pretty pro-import generally.

However, just from following this list, I was surprised that the import was
suddenly being done. I recall seeing messages about the possibility of a
project, and it sounded like it was slowly moving forward, but there wasn't
a lot of activity. It is clear now that a lot of the discussion was
happening offline at local meetups. To me this is fine with an active
community like Ottawa has, but perhaps the fact that this was going on
should have been shared back to the mailing list to show the progress that
was happening. The fact that a tasking manager was actually running and
data being imported and verified was quite a surprise, and obviously then
led to the unwanted revert.

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:49 AM, John Marshall  wrote:

> Looks good to me.
>
> I only would add if there are multiple buildings and it is not not clear
> what  the correct address are, local survey may be required. Then add a
> note like this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/741666
>
>
> John
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, john whelan 
> wrote:
>
>> A comment the data is of high quality and the building outlines are of
>> particular interest to the Stats Canada Project where Statistics Canada is
>> attempting to crowd source adding tags added to non residential buildings
>> within the City of Ottawa and Gatineau.  These include the number of levels
>> and the use of the building.  They will be suggesting using a customised iD
>> to their general public but given the experience of iD mapping buildings in
>> HOT it was thought that importing the building outlines would give a better
>> quality map at the end.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On 19 October 2016 at 13:45, James  wrote:
>>
>>> Seems like a good enough time like any other to talk about the import of
>>> Ottawa buildings and addresses into OpenStreetMap.
>>>
>>> Documentation is available here:
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan
>>>
>>> Discussion with local mappers has happened in person for multiple
>>> months(community buy in is very high in these meetings and we all saw
>>> benefit in including this data) :
>>> https://www.meetup.com/openstreetmap-ottawa/
>>>
>>> Once positive discussion of a period of 2 weeks has been met, we would
>>> like to start the import of said data.
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Talk-ca mailing list
>>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[James]

I have updated the documentation in the Risks and mitigation

On Oct 19, 2016 2:49 PM, "John Marshall"  wrote:

> Looks good to me.
>
> I only would add if there are multiple buildings and it is not not clear
> what  the correct address are, local survey may be required. Then add a
> note like this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/741666
>
>
> John
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, john whelan 
> wrote:
>
>> A comment the data is of high quality and the building outlines are of
>> particular interest to the Stats Canada Project where Statistics Canada is
>> attempting to crowd source adding tags added to non residential buildings
>> within the City of Ottawa and Gatineau.  These include the number of levels
>> and the use of the building.  They will be suggesting using a customised iD
>> to their general public but given the experience of iD mapping buildings in
>> HOT it was thought that importing the building outlines would give a better
>> quality map at the end.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On 19 October 2016 at 13:45, James  wrote:
>>
>>> Seems like a good enough time like any other to talk about the import of
>>> Ottawa buildings and addresses into OpenStreetMap.
>>>
>>> Documentation is available here:
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan
>>>
>>> Discussion with local mappers has happened in person for multiple
>>> months(community buy in is very high in these meetings and we all saw
>>> benefit in including this data) :
>>> https://www.meetup.com/openstreetmap-ottawa/
>>>
>>> Once positive discussion of a period of 2 weeks has been met, we would
>>> like to start the import of said data.
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Talk-ca mailing list
>>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[John Marshall]

Looks good to me.

I only would add if there are multiple buildings and it is not not clear
what  the correct address are, local survey may be required. Then add a
note like this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/741666


John

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 1:57 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> A comment the data is of high quality and the building outlines are of
> particular interest to the Stats Canada Project where Statistics Canada is
> attempting to crowd source adding tags added to non residential buildings
> within the City of Ottawa and Gatineau.  These include the number of levels
> and the use of the building.  They will be suggesting using a customised iD
> to their general public but given the experience of iD mapping buildings in
> HOT it was thought that importing the building outlines would give a better
> quality map at the end.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 19 October 2016 at 13:45, James  wrote:
>
>> Seems like a good enough time like any other to talk about the import of
>> Ottawa buildings and addresses into OpenStreetMap.
>>
>> Documentation is available here:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan
>>
>> Discussion with local mappers has happened in person for multiple
>> months(community buy in is very high in these meetings and we all saw
>> benefit in including this data) :
>> https://www.meetup.com/openstreetmap-ottawa/
>>
>> Once positive discussion of a period of 2 weeks has been met, we would
>> like to start the import of said data.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-ca mailing list
>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>>
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Telenav mapping turn restrictions

[James]

Yeah no one really wants to do that, except maybe mapbox's india contractors

On Oct 19, 2016 2:43 PM, "John Marshall"  wrote:

> Make sense to me. Adding turn restrictions is something I don't want to
> add.
>
> Happy to see all my Mapillary and OpenStreetView imagery being used to
> help improve the map.
>
> John
>
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Begin Daniel  wrote:
>
>> Go with the recommended scheme as described on the wiki.
>>
>> Daniel
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Martijn van Exel [mailto:m...@rtijn.org]
>> *Sent:* Monday, 17 October, 2016 23:53
>> *To:* Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
>> *Subject:* [Talk-ca] Telenav mapping turn restrictions
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> I wanted to give you a heads up that my colleagues on the Telenav map
>> team are starting work on adding turn restrictions in Toronto, Montréal,
>> and later on also Vancouver, Ottawa and Calgary. We are using
>> OpenStreetView and Mapillary as sources. If you have any questions or
>> concerns, please reach out to me and we will address it right away.
>>
>>
>>
>> For conditional (time-restricted) turn restrictions, we intend to use the
>> schema described in http://wiki.openstreetmap.o
>> rg/wiki/Conditional_restrictions. We encounter a more complex mapping of
>> conditional turn restrictions sometimes, where mappers have used day_on /
>> day_off and hour_on / hour_off. This is uncommon and as far as I know not
>> recommended for mapping time-restricted turn restrictions. If we encounter
>> these, our proposal would be to remove these tags and if necessary replace
>> them with the preferred scheme as described on the wiki. Opinions?
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Martijn
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Telenav mapping turn restrictions

[John Marshall]

Make sense to me. Adding turn restrictions is something I don't want to add.

Happy to see all my Mapillary and OpenStreetView imagery being used to help
improve the map.

John

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 9:24 AM, Begin Daniel  wrote:

> Go with the recommended scheme as described on the wiki.
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
> *From:* Martijn van Exel [mailto:m...@rtijn.org]
> *Sent:* Monday, 17 October, 2016 23:53
> *To:* Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
> *Subject:* [Talk-ca] Telenav mapping turn restrictions
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I wanted to give you a heads up that my colleagues on the Telenav map team
> are starting work on adding turn restrictions in Toronto, Montréal, and
> later on also Vancouver, Ottawa and Calgary. We are using OpenStreetView
> and Mapillary as sources. If you have any questions or concerns, please
> reach out to me and we will address it right away.
>
>
>
> For conditional (time-restricted) turn restrictions, we intend to use the
> schema described in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_
> restrictions. We encounter a more complex mapping of conditional turn
> restrictions sometimes, where mappers have used day_on / day_off and
> hour_on / hour_off. This is uncommon and as far as I know not recommended
> for mapping time-restricted turn restrictions. If we encounter these, our
> proposal would be to remove these tags and if necessary replace them with
> the preferred scheme as described on the wiki. Opinions?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Martijn
>
>
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[john whelan]

A comment the data is of high quality and the building outlines are of
particular interest to the Stats Canada Project where Statistics Canada is
attempting to crowd source adding tags added to non residential buildings
within the City of Ottawa and Gatineau.  These include the number of levels
and the use of the building.  They will be suggesting using a customised iD
to their general public but given the experience of iD mapping buildings in
HOT it was thought that importing the building outlines would give a better
quality map at the end.

Cheerio John

On 19 October 2016 at 13:45, James  wrote:

> Seems like a good enough time like any other to talk about the import of
> Ottawa buildings and addresses into OpenStreetMap.
>
> Documentation is available here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan
>
> Discussion with local mappers has happened in person for multiple
> months(community buy in is very high in these meetings and we all saw
> benefit in including this data) :
> https://www.meetup.com/openstreetmap-ottawa/
>
> Once positive discussion of a period of 2 weeks has been met, we would
> like to start the import of said data.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>
___
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[Talk-ca] [Import] Ottawa Buildings & Addresses [Statistics Canada project]

[James]

Seems like a good enough time like any other to talk about the import of
Ottawa buildings and addresses into OpenStreetMap.

Documentation is available here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canada:Ontario:Ottawa/Import/Plan

Discussion with local mappers has happened in person for multiple
months(community buy in is very high in these meetings and we all saw
benefit in including this data) :
https://www.meetup.com/openstreetmap-ottawa/

Once positive discussion of a period of 2 weeks has been met, we would like
to start the import of said data.

Thank you.
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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Stewart C. Russell]

On 2016-10-19 02:31 AM, Denis Carriere wrote:
> 
> *Quick survey: *Who is even opposed to a Building Import in Ottawa

I'm opposed to the word “opposed”, as good imports done properly do add
value to the map. But this import wasn't done right, so I can't support
the method.

More later.
 Stewart

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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Michael Reichert]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi Denis, hi Rps333, hi LogicalViolinist [3]

Am 19.10.2016 um 08:31 schrieb Denis Carriere:
> Ok this Ottawa reverting process is getting out of hand now!
> Frederik (woodpeck_repair) is reverting entire user history without
> looking at what his osm-revert-script is doing.
> 
> *Before & After of Revert - More info with photos* 
> https://gist.github.com/DenisCarriere/581b3dbc6adf36608f470702d0bcc38d
>
>  This all started because a "building:level" tag was removed by
> accident in Stittsville, it happens, don't cry over it.
> 
> As for "lack of discussion" we've been planning this for months and
> invited all the local mappers to events & we've also got the
> license agreement from the City of Ottawa.
> 
> So why are you reverting possibly hundreds of hours of work done by
> the local OSM Ottawa group?
> 
> If you're only concern is documentation and workflows, then we can
> easily provide it, no need for an emergency revert of entire users 
> histories (LogicalViolinist, Rps333, DenisCarriere) all of them are
> very active contributors.

I have the impression that we are talking to a brick wall. As people
have pointed out on this mailing list for the last days, your import
lacks nearly everything which is required by the guideline. Please
read the postings of the other people on this mailing list carefully.

Additionally, I hereby ask you, DenisCarriere, Rps333 and
LogicalViolinist not to upload any buildings or addresses, modifying
or deleting them before the full revert is completed. Don't try to
start or continue any edit wars [1,2]! Don't restart the import just
after the revert has been finished. Do everything which is required by
the guideline. [4] I hope we do not need a fifth user block within
three days to enforce these rules. :-(

Best regards

Michael



[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/42988442
[2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1067
[3] email address unknown
[4] You have to wait about two to three weeks between asking on a
mailing list for approval and starting the import.


- -- 
Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt.
(Mailinglisten ausgenommen)
I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
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Re: [Talk-ca] City of Ottawa imported buildings & addresses

[Denis Carriere]

Ok this Ottawa reverting process is getting out of hand now! Frederik
(woodpeck_repair) is reverting entire user history without looking at what
his osm-revert-script is doing.

*Before & After of Revert - More info with photos*
https://gist.github.com/DenisCarriere/581b3dbc6adf36608f470702d0bcc38d

This all started because a "building:level" tag was removed by accident in
Stittsville, it happens, don't cry over it.

As for "lack of discussion" we've been planning this for months and invited
all the local mappers to events & we've also got the license agreement from
the City of Ottawa.

So why are you reverting possibly hundreds of hours of work done by the
local OSM Ottawa group?

If you're only concern is documentation and workflows, then we can easily
provide it, no need for an emergency revert of entire users
histories (LogicalViolinist, Rps333, DenisCarriere) all of them are very
active contributors.

I understand the need of a revert if we are breaking a legal agreement for
data that isn't compatible with the OSM license, but this isn't the case.
We've sent dozens of emails to Talk-CA and the only people interested in
the project was our group, next time people should be more involved in
local Canadian open data effort from our government (StatsCan in
particular).

The data in Ottawa is pitiful compared to other parts of the world, I'm
frankly embarrassed when I look at our OSM maps. We finally have a project
that promotes the use of open data provided by the City of Ottawa and we
have a dedicated group that is willing to put all the hard work to improve
the map in Ottawa, and now weeks of hard work is being totally reverted by
a command line script from @woodpeck_repair.

*Quick survey: *Who is even opposed to a Building Import in Ottawa (rural
areas is a big concern)? If no one is, Frederick can you please stop your
revert process and we can continue working on adding the buildings to
Ottawa. We're all very talented mappers and we can fix our mistakes, we
don't need a full user history revert.

Don't hesitate to reply, we're welcoming comments and concerns.

Thanks,

*~~*
*Denis Carriere*
*GIS Software & Systems Specialist*

*Twitter: @DenisCarriere *
*OSM: DenisCarriere *
GitHub: DenisCarriere 
Email: carriere.de...@gmail.com

On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 10/17/2016 11:59 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > The person responsible for cleaning up a poor revert should be the
> > person who ran it ;) it's only 30% complete and will run far into the
> > night in my time zone and I'll have to check on it after getting up. I'm
> > confident all will be fixed when you get up tomorrow morning.
>
> Unfortunately the import was larger than expected and the revert drags
> on. Meanwhile, a couple of accounts have been newly created by parties
> unknown ("addxy_imports", "ottawa_import") and these have (accidentally
> or purposefully) interfered with the revert, meaning that it will take
> even longer for me do this right.
>
> I would like to appeal to all involved parties to show some maturity.
> The import was in clear violation of established processes; it must be
> reverted, and then the community can - calmly and without any time
> pressure - decide what they want to do with the data.
>
> I haven't analysed the import in depth but I have seen a couple of
> examples where a perfectly well mapped building was wiped clean and
> replaced with one that was not at all better - this is clearly something
> we don't want to see in an import, it is a technical (or procedural)
> shortcoming that would definitely have been pointed out had there been a
> proper discussion beforehand.
>
> The requirement to talk about imports before you act is not an
> unnecessary bueraucratic hurdle; it is intended to avoid disappointment
> on all sides. An import that fears the broad daylight is probably one
> that should not be attempted at all!
>
> I should maybe have made that clearer in my initial email but I'm acting
> here as a member of the OSMF's data working group in response to a
> legitimate complaint, not as a German mapper seeking trouble. I
> sincerely ask everyone involved to keep calm and let the revert complete
> cleanly.
>
> I see that user LogicalViolinist has already found fields of endeavour
> outside of Canada for the time being.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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