Re: [Talk-ca] BC2020i OSM Distributed Model and Education

[john whelan]

There are a lot of resources available.  The tool you use in many ways
doesn't matter too much when you are explaining.  ARCgis format can be
converted to .OSM format.  All the GIS tools use the same basic idea of
nodes and ways.  Some use layers, OSM just bungs it all in together.

There are tools to bring in a GPS track very easily into .osm it was at one
time the primary method for recording highways.

The cities aren't going to open up their GIS databases any time soon to
students.  The only way to mix in crowdsourcing on the tags is basically
OSM.

I suggest you find something you want to do from the jargon in the
curriculum and then we'll try to figure out how to do it.  Hopefully we can
benefit the building project as me go.

Cheerio John

On 2 February 2018 at 18:26, Jonathan Brown  wrote:

> Fair enough. It’s jargon from the “innovation, creativity and
> entreprenship” focus in many education sectors these days. Eduspeak,
> agreed. What I meant to say is that the workflow and the technology to
> support the teaching and learning environment for future “citizen
> scientists” needs to be piloted before we can expect students contribute to
> a well-planned flight plan. I can’t see teachers investing instructional
> time to enable the required training to happen unless it is connected to a
> cross-curricular activity as the Manitoba folks point out.
>
>
>
> In Ontario, school boards are licensed to use ArcGIS. This is what many
> municipal and regional GIS staff us. For the non-GIS experts it is not
> user-friendly. I saw this first hand with an outdoor education teacher I
> was observing as he tried to get his GPS data into the program. I also
> heard from a group of teachers I spoke to a professional development
> session in Toronto today that they would love to use GIS tools to teach
> problem-solving in their courses, but not if the technology is too
> complicated or unreliable to use in their classes. I know you’ll have an
> opinion about that, so fire away. I’m trying to figure out what Keith
> pointed out with his experience in Manitoba.
>
>
>
> So, I concur with the need for OSM project management. My guess is that
> might be the role of the Ministry of Infrastructure under the current SMART
> cities challenge they issued:  http://www.infrastructure.gc.
> ca/plan/cities-villes-eng.html
>
> Also, the Canadian Ministry of Innovation, Science and Economic
> Development announced $50 million funding to train 1 million K-12 teachers
> and students on how to use digital technology in the classroom. The CanCode
> federal program
> 
> aims “to equip youth, including traditionally underrepresented groups, with
> the skills and study incentives they need to be prepared for the jobs of
> today and the future.” The funding, however, is going to NGOs because our
> K-12 education sector in Canada is a provincial responsibility. Canada does
> not have a Ministry of Education or a federal department of education like
> in the US.
>
>
>
> That said, I think from my conversations with this community and phone
> calls with folks at Telenav and within the OSM community (a phone call with
> Clifford was most helpful for me). Telenav’s presentation at SOTM 2017 was
> also helpful. Telenav talked Maproulette.org,
> 
>  a
> gamified way to parse out small tasks for mappers to fix, and
> Improveosm.org , a big data resource
> where Telenav has collected billions of *GPS traces* that point our
> errors in OSM. A heatmap highlights the zones of errors that includes
> information and action items. Someone at the conference commented that,
> “historically OpenStreetMap was rather clunky and best for those with more
> patience than I. Thankfully useful apps like MAPS.ME
>  & OSM.And  have emerged.
> These apps use OpenStreetMap as a base map, but present it in an
> aesthetically appealing and more efficient way. They also allow you to
> download regions for offline use, an invaluable feature when you’re
> travelling.”  ,
>
>
>
> As an example of a K-12 use case flight plan there is the Lifelong
> Learning Mapping Project, a European Comenius-funded project involving 5
> different countries in 5 different languages. What was the quality of the
> data collected by those students? Who were the experienced flight crew that
> provided the schools with support? Do they have a flight plan that could be
> adapted to the BC2020 project? https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Life_Long_Learning_Mapping_Project
>
> We have 13 pan-Canadian jurisdictions, so maybe start with some of those
> jurisdictions where OSM capacity already exists and start a wiki flight
> plan.
>
>
>
> Alessandro 

Re: [Talk-ca] BC2020i OSM Distributed Model and Education

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

I repeat myself:  less buzzword-compliance, please.  More embracing of 
tried-and-true OSM tenets and culture, like front-loaded planning, ongoing, 
wide-area project management on something with nationwide scope as this, wiki 
writing/updating both intent and ongoing status, making available short video 
clip "flight plans" (OSM curriculum specific to entering building data) to 
explain process to various audiences in Canada  You have Ottawa as a "good 
acorn," clone what was learned there into the wiki (better than now) and target 
other cities and audiences to harmonize with slow-yet-steady OSM-style growth.  
That is how this turns into "mighty oaks."

I met Clifford in Seattle two summers ago, he presented some excellent OSM 
community-building strategies at SOTM-US, I had a contract with Telenav for a 
while, I know maps.me, and I watched Philly Fresh Food turn into rather 
impressive results, as it was well-planned and was ready to receive beneficial 
and unexpected synergies.  (That didn't happen because somebody said "synergy," 
by the way).  I've been around the OSM block and I'm obviously passionate about 
it yielding awesome results.  But only when some awesome happens up-front.  
Otherwise (and I've both seen it and cleaned it up), it gets messy, and fast.

Yes, gathering "how" intelligence from existing projects is smart.  Yes, 
learning that concerns like liability and a PERCEIVED "lack of control" in an 
open, public, crowdsourced database like OSM can pose problems, but only if you 
push through these perceptions with an understanding of previous pitfalls, and 
the commensurate good planning and active management which can and do avoid 
these.  With both, you can address not only these (perceived) issues, "you" 
(and who is that?) can "drive" the project virtually anyplace desired, provided 
it sticks to OSM's good tenets and keeps the finish line in sight while hewing 
to good bounds to get there.  This project does better at that now, I think it 
will continue to do so.  It seriously needs a flight crew, steering committee, 
whatever you wish to call it.  While those specific individual human beings 
might be in a government bureaucracy (or, they might not), they MUST (I repeat, 
MUST) be steeped in culture and methods of OSM.  Knowledge of ArcGIS or other 
GIS/cartography experience is fine, knowledge of other sorts of crowdsourcing 
can help, yet the way that things are well-built and work in OSM is unique to 
OSM.  Embrace that, and fly.  Don't, or put too much emphasis on "the way we've 
always done things here" and you create more difficulties.

It is getting better.  (As my tone hews closer to honey than vinegar, it will 
get better).  Again, I've said it and said it and said it.  So please:  do it.  
The good intentions to do so are clearly there, that is a terrific place to be 
to continue onto the next steps.

SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] BC2020i OSM Distributed Model and Education

[Jonathan Brown]

Fair enough. It’s jargon from the “innovation, creativity and entreprenship” 
focus in many education sectors these days. Eduspeak, agreed. What I meant to 
say is that the workflow and the technology to support the teaching and 
learning environment for future “citizen scientists” needs to be piloted before 
we can expect students contribute to a well-planned flight plan. I can’t see 
teachers investing instructional time to enable the required training to happen 
unless it is connected to a cross-curricular activity as the Manitoba folks 
point out. 

In Ontario, school boards are licensed to use ArcGIS. This is what many 
municipal and regional GIS staff us. For the non-GIS experts it is not 
user-friendly. I saw this first hand with an outdoor education teacher I was 
observing as he tried to get his GPS data into the program. I also heard from a 
group of teachers I spoke to a professional development session in Toronto 
today that they would love to use GIS tools to teach problem-solving in their 
courses, but not if the technology is too complicated or unreliable to use in 
their classes. I know you’ll have an opinion about that, so fire away. I’m 
trying to figure out what Keith pointed out with his experience in Manitoba.  

So, I concur with the need for OSM project management. My guess is that might 
be the role of the Ministry of Infrastructure under the current SMART cities 
challenge they issued:  
http://www.infrastructure.gc.ca/plan/cities-villes-eng.html
Also, the Canadian Ministry of Innovation, Science and Economic Development 
announced $50 million funding to train 1 million K-12 teachers and students on 
how to use digital technology in the classroom. The CanCode federal program 
aims “to equip youth, including traditionally underrepresented groups, with the 
skills and study incentives they need to be prepared for the jobs of today and 
the future.” The funding, however, is going to NGOs because our K-12 education 
sector in Canada is a provincial responsibility. Canada does not have a 
Ministry of Education or a federal department of education like in the US. 

That said, I think from my conversations with this community and phone calls 
with folks at Telenav and within the OSM community (a phone call with Clifford 
was most helpful for me). Telenav’s presentation at SOTM 2017 was also helpful. 
Telenav talked Maproulette.org, a gamified way to parse out small tasks for 
mappers to fix, and Improveosm.org, a big data resource where Telenav has 
collected billions of GPS traces that point our errors in OSM. A heatmap 
highlights the zones of errors that includes information and action items. 
Someone at the conference commented that, “historically OpenStreetMap was 
rather clunky and best for those with more patience than I. Thankfully useful 
apps like MAPS.ME & OSM.And have emerged. These apps use OpenStreetMap as a 
base map, but present it in an aesthetically appealing and more efficient way. 
They also allow you to download regions for offline use, an invaluable feature 
when you’re travelling.”  ,

As an example of a K-12 use case flight plan there is the Lifelong Learning 
Mapping Project, a European Comenius-funded project involving 5 different 
countries in 5 different languages. What was the quality of the data collected 
by those students? Who were the experienced flight crew that provided the 
schools with support? Do they have a flight plan that could be adapted to the 
BC2020 project? 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Life_Long_Learning_Mapping_Project
We have 13 pan-Canadian jurisdictions, so maybe start with some of those 
jurisdictions where OSM capacity already exists and start a wiki flight plan.  

Alessandro pointed us to the Philly Fresh Food Mapper 
https://www.geovista.psu.edu/phillyfood/
This is a good example of harnessing “crowdsourcing” and “citizen science” to 
solve a local problem. Sterling Quinn already shared with us the following in 
an email: “We also held a map-a-thon at a public library in North Philly where 
we got people from the food, tech, and education communities together. That was 
probably the most interesting thing to come out of the project. I also had a 
few discussions with people working with the city to make a similar database, 
but they had some of the usual concerns about using OSM as their main 
repository (e.g., liability, perceived lack of control).”

Jonathan 

From: OSM Volunteer stevea
Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 4:58 PM
To: Jonathan Brown; talk-ca
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] BC2020i OSM Distributed Model and Education

On Jan 30, 2018, at 7:49 AM, Jonathan Brown  wrote:
> I don’t mind reviewing the OSM education wiki for lessons learned and 
> “promising practices” and seeing how it might inform the design of a mapathon 
> event aligned to the K-12 curricula and postsecondary capstone project model. 
> It will be messy, but that’s the nature of the beast. To use the jargon, 
> start small, fail fast and 

Re: [Talk-ca] BC2020i OSM Distributed Model and Education

[john whelan]

I think we need to identify the possible problem areas and those things
that would be useful to the students.  Not all students will have the same
needs.

The first is we really want to avoid students tracing building outlines in
iD.  Experience has shown they aren't very good at it.  JOSM and the
building_tool plugin works well but needs some preplanning.  If NRC LiDar
building outlines come off that gets round the problem.

First to get an understanding of GIS basics we need to reduce the idea of
an electronic map to two things.  Nodes and ways and we add tags to these.
You can call them different things but basically the nodes have a Longitude
and Latitude tag and the ways connect them.  Tag the way as a highway and
you have a road.  Tag it as a waterway and you have a river.  Four nodes
with four ways connecting them gives you the outline of a building.  Closed
ways are a special case and take tags such as building=yes.

Because my background is technical I would suggest a mention of XML format
of fire type .osm.  It evolved from SGML and is today used in many ways
including the internal file format for Microsoft Word.

An exercise might be to extract a building from OSM in JOSM save the file
and look at it in something such as notepad++


  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  














  


You can see from the idents around way and /way the tags for the building
are grouped together.  The important thing about .xml are the tags.  In a
conventional database if a tag is unrecognised strange things can happen.
With XML only data from within recognised tags are used which means new
tags can be added without affecting the normal processing.  It is often
used as a file transfer format from one system to another.

On a less technical level often people have difficulty in grasping that the
map shown on www.openstreetmap.org is not the real live map.  It would be
useful to mention the concept of rendering and to show the map rendered in
different ways.  OSMand comes to mind.  Look at map layers on
openstreetmap.org.

For the building project itself it would be useful to look at how we
extract the data from the map.  With paper map you'd need to count the
buildings but with an electronic map a program can count them for you.

It would be useful if someone could produce a sample in R that takes a .osm
file and counts the buildings.  A task from that would be to extend it to
count the number of two storey (story) buildings.  Legally in Canada by act
of parliament "storey" is used rather than the American "story".  Discuss
perhaps?

Local knowledge is always preferred in OSM.  So I would suggest for the
mapathon ensure the building outlines are in place then ask the students to
enrich the map by adding tags.  Run R before and after to show the
differences and the impact.

Dig into https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Education and see if there is
anything useful.

Be aware there are many different points of view within OpenStreetMap, as
an example map features and taginfo often differ.  Map features is
someone's idea of this is how to tag taginfo is this are the tags that have
been used.  Could students explain why this is so?

OpenStreetMap isn't just about geography and producing a printed map.
Maperitive is an excellent tool for creating your own map either to the
screen or printed by the way and it can be customised.  Making a simple
change is easy but its almost a programming language in its own right.

The suggestions may or may not be relevant but they cover a fairly wide
range of subjects.

Have fun

Cheerio John








On 30 January 2018 at 10:49, Jonathan Brown  wrote:

> I don’t mind reviewing the OSM education wiki for lessons learned and
> “promising practices” and seeing how it might inform the design of a
> mapathon event aligned to the K-12 curricula and postsecondary capstone
> project model. It will be messy, but that’s the nature of the beast. To use
> the jargon, start small, fail fast and apply what you learn to the next
> event.
>
>
>
> Durham Region is planning on hosting a mapathon event as early as this
> March. I’m working with the GIS Supervisor who also teaches GIS to 2nd
> year environmental science students at Durham College. I also have a
> teacher who is very good at working with students who normally would not
> participate in these kinds of events, but who have street knowledge.
>
>
>
> Jamie Boyd and Moses Iziomon at the Treasury Board’s Open Government
> branch may have some funding to support Alessandro’s group in helping to
> engage the OSM “crowdmappers” and citizen science practitioners. This could
> align to their 2 year open government plan http://open.canada.ca/en/
> 4plan/creating-canadas-4th-plan-open-government-2018-20. They are looking
> for workshop ideas for early May.
>
>
>
> Does anyone know of OSM expertise that we could tap into for a mapathon
> event in the Durham Region? Thanks.
>
>
>
>

Re: [Talk-ca] BC2020i OSM Distributed Model and Education

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

On Jan 30, 2018, at 7:49 AM, Jonathan Brown  wrote:
> I don’t mind reviewing the OSM education wiki for lessons learned and 
> “promising practices” and seeing how it might inform the design of a mapathon 
> event aligned to the K-12 curricula and postsecondary capstone project model. 
> It will be messy, but that’s the nature of the beast. To use the jargon, 
> start small, fail fast and apply what you learn to the next event.

With all due respect to you, Johnathan, I don't know where you got that jargon, 
but it does not apply to OSM:  our worldwide mapping project is not a "dumping 
ground" to "fail fast" where poor quality data are entered and then corrected 
as a nationwide project finds its footing, lurching forward to apply newly 
discovered corrections to its past mistakes.  No, it must plan first.  Pilots 
file flight plans, and they stay in contact with control towers with status and 
progress reports.  A nationwide OSM project is no different if all passengers 
are expected to land safely, especially on a long flight!

Sure, mistakes happen and we learn from them, course-correcting along the way, 
that's simply human nature.  But as I have been exhorting for months, what will 
MAKE BC2020 a successful OSM project is this:  good planning NOW and project 
management along the way.  BOTH must be front-loaded into the nationwide OSM 
project that BC2020 is, not bolted on later as an afterthought.

> Jamie Boyd and Moses Iziomon at the Treasury Board’s Open Government branch 
> may have some funding to support Alessandro’s group in helping to engage the 
> OSM “crowdmappers” and citizen science practitioners. This could align to 
> their 2 year open government plan 
> http://open.canada.ca/en/4plan/creating-canadas-4th-plan-open-government-2018-20.
>  They are looking for workshop ideas for early May.

If TB has funding, ask them to seek and pay for expertise in nationwide-scope 
OSM project management experience:  good planning, harmonizing vision/goals of 
BC2020 with the culture of OSM to be "OSM first" (it is), writing wiki, 
assuring that mapathons, meetups, university and K-12 events have structure, 
direction and a solid plan FIRST before entering vast building data.  Too many 
large-scale OSM projects fail due to poor planning, a lack of standardization 
as to what and how goals are to be achieved and hence suffer poor results.  The 
method by which this gets solved is with up-front planning, that means NOW or 
very soon.  Crowdsourcing is not a magic bullet that yields great results for 
free or without planning.  There are costs involved:  thought, discussion, 
consensus, documentation and those take time and effort.

BC2020 has had a recent "reality check" that is it more than BC2020i (the 
initiative), it is now a full-fledged BC2020 WikiProject (without the i, as an 
OSM project).  That means wikis, import plans, documenting the process that 
each city/event might and should take, etc. get adhered to and followed.  To 
keep this communication in the dark and out of a wider OSM view essentially 
dooms this project to failure.  Please:  plan now for superior data later.  It 
has gotten better in the last week or two, but the "messy nature of the beast" 
approach noted above is not acceptable to the greater OSM community.  Both wiki 
and talk-ca are important venues for this dialog, private email exchanges can 
supplement it, but a nationwide project deserves a nationwide discussion that 
is front-loaded and transparent, not (exclusively) "fail fast."  In fact, OSM 
insists upon this.

Please install pilots in your large, jet aircraft.  If it is to fly and land at 
its destination (years into the future), it not only deserves, it simply must 
have an experienced flight crew.

With respect to you, all OSM volunteers in Canada, and indeed the OSM community 
at large,
SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] using image recognition to create building foot prints.

[Gravel, Pierre (NRCan/RNCan)]

Bien reçu
Je t’informerai lorsque nous aurons des données issues de la pré-production.

Le processus que nous sommes à mettre en place utilise directement le nuage de 
point.
L’identification individuelle des bâtiments est l’un des deux principaux 
problèmes que nous rencontrons :
- La trop grande proximité entre des bâtiments fait en sorte que les empreintes 
sont fusionnées en une seule.
- Le présence de végétation au-dessus des bâtiments réduit la densité de points 
et il en résulte parfois une diminution de la qualité de la représentation.

Pour la fusion des bâtiments, nous pourrons qualifier la probabilité de fusion 
en utilisant les points de sol qui peuvent se retrouver entre deux bâtiments. 
Cette mesure de la probabilité sera fournie en attribut avec les empreintes.

De plus, les maisons jumelés , ou duplex, ou maisons en rangées ne seront pas 
considérées comme étant des bâtiments fusionnés car les données LiDAR ne 
peuvent faire ce type de distinction.

Je suis très content que ce produit suscite de l’intérêt et que nous aurons la 
chance d’avoir de la rétroaction avant la publication de la première version 
officielle.

Bon vendredi.

Pierre



From: Pierre Béland [mailto:pierz...@yahoo.fr]
Sent: February 2, 2018 12:26 PM
To: Gravel, Pierre (NRCan/RNCan) ; john whelan 

Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap ; Alasia, Alessandro 
(STATCAN) ; Bergeron, Denis (NRCan/RNCan) 

Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] using image recognition to create building foot prints.

Pierre,

Je suis aussi intéressé à collaborer à tester de telles données  Les milieux 
urbains denses devraient poser un problème particulier pour l'identification 
des immeubles individuels. À voir comment les modèles de classification peuvent 
performer en utilisant les données d'élévation.

Pierre


Le vendredi 2 février 2018 11:10:41 HNE, john whelan 
> a écrit :


I think when you have something available we should be able to find resources 
to double check the quality and also to work out a process to import them.  The 
latter will be interesting both from the technical point of view and the 
acceptance within the OSM community.
My concern on the Canadian building project was getting reasonable building 
outlines from a mixture of mappers given some experiences we've seen in the 
past.
Cheerio John

2018-02-02 11:01 GMT-05:00 Gravel, Pierre (NRCan/RNCan) 
>:

Hi John, yes I am on the mailing list.

I confirm that we (NRCAN) are working on a process to extract building 
footprints from airborne LiDAR data and we expect to disseminate these 
footprints from June 2018 on Open Map Canada Portal.

The accuracy of these footprints well be very good, but of course that an 
automatic extraction process can’t be better than human eyes.

The quality of these footprints are totally depending on the quality of the 
LiDAR data in input (density and classification) and we will filter LiDAR 
projects that we will use to make sure that the footprints quality will meet a 
minimum threshold.

It’s not an objective of NRCAN to upload these footprints on OSM, but I think 
that these footprints can be a very good start for OSM communities then to 
allow people to improve these footprints.

I take the opportunity to ask you if you accept to give us a feedback on these 
footprints before the official launch.

If yes, It will be my pleasure to provide a pre-production data for those who 
want to check them.



It sounds good ?



Best Regards



Pierre Gravel

Centre canadien de cartographie et d’observation de la terre

Ressources naturelles Canada / Gouvernement du Canada

pierre.gra...@canada.ca / Tél. 819-564-5600, 
poste 246



Canadian Center of Mapping and Earth Observation

Natural Resources Canada / Government of Canada

pierre.gra...@canada.ca / Tel. 819-564-5600, 
x246









From: Pierre Béland [mailto:pierz...@yahoo.fr]
Sent: January 29, 2018 4:54 PM
To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap 
>; john whelan 
>
Cc: Gravel, Pierre (NRCan/RNCan) 
>
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] using image recognition to create building foot prints.



Précision,

Les missions aériennes permettent de produire des images de grande qualité.

 On y associe des équipements LIDAR qui émettent un signal vers le sol pour 
mesurer la distance. Aussi bien la technique LIDAR que de petits drones sont 
aujourd'hui capables de produire des modèles d'élévation avec quelques 
centimètres de précision.  Cela permet aussi de produire des modèles 3D des 
immeubles et de distinguer avec la végétation.



Suite aux inondations du 

Re: [Talk-ca] BC2020i OSM Distributed Model and Education

[Jonathan Brown]

I don’t mind reviewing the OSM education wiki for lessons learned and 
“promising practices” and seeing how it might inform the design of a mapathon 
event aligned to the K-12 curricula and postsecondary capstone project model. 
It will be messy, but that’s the nature of the beast. To use the jargon, start 
small, fail fast and apply what you learn to the next event. 

Durham Region is planning on hosting a mapathon event as early as this March. 
I’m working with the GIS Supervisor who also teaches GIS to 2nd year 
environmental science students at Durham College. I also have a teacher who is 
very good at working with students who normally would not participate in these 
kinds of events, but who have street knowledge. 

Jamie Boyd and Moses Iziomon at the Treasury Board’s Open Government branch may 
have some funding to support Alessandro’s group in helping to engage the OSM 
“crowdmappers” and citizen science practitioners. This could align to their 2 
year open government plan 
http://open.canada.ca/en/4plan/creating-canadas-4th-plan-open-government-2018-20.
 They are looking for workshop ideas for early May. 

Does anyone know of OSM expertise that we could tap into for a mapathon event 
in the Durham Region? Thanks. 


Jonathan 

From: talk-ca-requ...@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 11:06 PM
To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Talk-ca Digest, Vol 119, Issue 32

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: using image recognition to create building foot   prints.
  (Matthew Darwin)
   2. Re: using image recognition to create building foot   prints.
  (john whelan)
   3. Re: using image recognition to create building foot   prints.
  (Matthew Darwin)
   4. Re: using image recognition to create building foot   prints.
  (Matthew Darwin)


--

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 21:11:04 -0500
From: Matthew Darwin 
To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap 
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] using image recognition to create building foot
prints.
Message-ID: <50feb14c-0770-4e78-3363-daec8951a...@mdarwin.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

+1

Unless someone has lots of $$$ to throw at OSM work (which could then 
fund full time coordinators, trainers, lawyers, etc), the only way I 
see to coordinate is to approach it like how OSM in Canada was build 
up to now... distributed model with local groups doing what makes 
sense for their area.   There is, of course, no way to map all 
buildings in Canada by 2020 this way.  Still it is good to set 
aspirational goals...

On 2018-01-29 08:57 PM, Pierre Béland wrote:
>
> Il faut une part de réalisme. Pour bien coordonner, il ne suffit pas 
> de créer une tâche et d'inviter à participer. Nous ne sommes pas une 
> communauté structurée au niveau national.  Je comprends que diverses 
> universités s'intéressent au projet OSM et aimeraient initier leurs 
> étudiants à ce projet. La meilleure solution je pense c'est de se 
> mettre en contact avec la communauté OSM locale et s'assurer de bien 
> encadrer la formation et les premiers jours de participation à OSM.
>
> Les contributeurs sont davantage actifs dans leurs communautés 
> locales ou selon leur divers intérêts liés à leur travail ou loisir. 
> Personne n'est prêt à s'engager à coordonner un tel projet au niveau 
> national.

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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2018 21:17:51 -0500
From: john whelan 
To: Matthew Darwin 
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap 
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] using image recognition to create building foot
prints.
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

 and I think I agree with Pierre the best approach would be to do it a step
at a time using experienced local resources.

We do need to engage with high schools and the Universities but it is
difficult with the resources available.  There is some material available
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Education but it would need reviewing
to see if it is relevant to what is required.

We were exceptionally fortunate in Ottawa with the pilot and the 

Re: [Talk-ca] using image recognition to create building foot prints.

[Pierre Béland]

Pierre, 
Je suis aussi intéressé à collaborer à tester de telles données  Les milieux 
urbains denses devraient poser un problème particulier pour l'identification 
des immeubles individuels. À voir comment les modèles de classification peuvent 
performer en utilisant les données d'élévation.
 
Pierre 
 

Le vendredi 2 février 2018 11:10:41 HNE, john whelan 
 a écrit :  
 
 I think when you have something available we should be able to find resources 
to double check the quality and also to work out a process to import them.  The 
latter will be interesting both from the technical point of view and the 
acceptance within the OSM community. 

My concern on the Canadian building project was getting reasonable building 
outlines from a mixture of mappers given some experiences we've seen in the 
past. 

Cheerio John

2018-02-02 11:01 GMT-05:00 Gravel, Pierre (NRCan/RNCan) 
:


Hi John, yes I am on the mailing list.

I confirm that we (NRCAN) are working on a process to extract building 
footprints from airborne LiDAR data and we expect to disseminate these 
footprints from June 2018 on Open Map Canada Portal.

The accuracy of these footprints well be very good, but of course that an 
automatic extraction process can’t be better than human eyes.

The quality of these footprints are totally depending on the quality of the 
LiDAR data in input (density and classification) and we will filter LiDAR 
projects that we will use to make sure that the footprints quality will meet a 
minimum threshold.

It’s not an objective of NRCAN to upload these footprints on OSM, but I think 
that these footprints can be a very good start for OSM communities then to 
allow people to improve these footprints.

I take the opportunity to ask you if you accept to give us a feedback on these 
footprints before the official launch.

If yes, It will be my pleasure to provide a pre-production data for those who 
want to check them.

 

It sounds good ?

 

Best Regards

 

Pierre Gravel

Centre canadien de cartographie et d’observation de la terre

Ressources naturelles Canada / Gouvernement du Canada

pierre.gra...@canada.ca / Tél. 819-564-5600, poste 246

 

Canadian Center of Mapping and Earth Observation

Natural Resources Canada / Government of Canada

pierre.gra...@canada.ca / Tel. 819-564-5600, x246

 

 

 

 

From: Pierre Béland [mailto:pierz...@yahoo.fr]
Sent: January 29, 2018 4:54 PM
To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap ; john whelan 

Cc: Gravel, Pierre (NRCan/RNCan) 
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] using image recognition to create building foot prints.

 

Précision,  

Les missions aériennes permettent de produire des images de grande qualité. 

 On y associe des équipements LIDAR qui émettent un signal vers le sol pour 
mesurer la distance. Aussi bien la technique LIDAR que de petits drones sont 
aujourd'hui capables de produire des modèles d'élévation avec quelques 
centimètres de précision.  Cela permet aussi de produire des modèles 3D des 
immeubles et de distinguer avec la végétation.

 

Suite aux inondations du Richelieu et du Lac Champlain en 2011, des modèles 
d'élévation très des zones urbaines en bordure de la rivière Richelieu ont été 
produites.

 

Si on se rappelle les discussions il y a quelques mois, un tel travail d'import 
va nécessiter des ressources importantes. Les diverses communautés OSM locales 
devront évaluer leur capacité à réaliser des projets d'import d'immeubles. Et 
il faut éviter de se baser sur le modèle «Cartoparties» pour réaliser de tels 
projets. Des milliers de personnes qui sont sensibiliées quelques heures à la 
cartographie ne reviennent pas ensuite et laisse souvent une donnée de piètre 
qualité.

 

Il faut être réaliste et construire peu à peu, motiver des communautés locales 
à expérimenter un modèle d'import de la donnée. Cela fera ensuite boule de 
neige ( c'est de saison :)  )


Pierre

 

 

Le lundi 29 janvier 2018 16:07:31 HNE, Pierre Béland  a 
écrit :

 

 

Bonjour John

 

Les spécialistes d'imagerie produisent des couches de données assez précises à 
partir d'imagerie LIDAR ou de drones, incluant, immeubles, cours d'eau et 
occupation du sol. Ces images offrent qualité et précision. Des techniques de 
classification, interprétation, correction permettent aux spécialistes de 
converger vers un produit de qualité.  Et bien sûr toutes ces avancées 
technologiques et l'accès éventuel à des profanes bousculent les habitudes tout 
comme les véhicules sans conducteur :)

 

Même si Statistique Canada fournit à OSM un fichier produit par des 
spécialistes, il sera nécessaire ensuite d'établir une procédure d'import, de 
fusionner / aligner avec les données existantes et de corriger. 

 

Et ouvront la porte au Futur! Une autre avenue, c'est l'accès aux profanes que 
nous sommes à des outils semi-automatiques pour faciliter la digitalisation de 

Re: [Talk-ca] Talk-ca Digest, Vol 120, Issue 2

[keith hartley]

ons aériennes permettent de produire des images de grande
> > qualité.
> >
> >  On y associe des équipements LIDAR qui émettent un signal vers le sol
> > pour mesurer la distance. Aussi bien la technique LIDAR que de petits
> > drones sont aujourd'hui capables de produire des modèles d'élévation avec
> > quelques centimètres de précision.  Cela permet aussi de produire des
> > modèles 3D des immeubles et de distinguer avec la végétation.
> >
> >
> >
> > Suite aux inondations du Richelieu et du Lac Champlain en 2011, des
> > modèles d'élévation très des zones urbaines en bordure de la rivière
> > Richelieu ont été produites.
> >
> >
> >
> > Si on se rappelle les discussions il y a quelques mois, un tel travail
> > d'import va nécessiter des ressources importantes. Les diverses
> communautés
> > OSM locales devront évaluer leur capacité à réaliser des projets d'import
> > d'immeubles. Et il faut éviter de se baser sur le modèle «Cartoparties»
> > pour réaliser de tels projets. Des milliers de personnes qui sont
> > sensibiliées quelques heures à la cartographie ne reviennent pas ensuite
> et
> > laisse souvent une donnée de piètre qualité.
> >
> >
> >
> > Il faut être réaliste et construire peu à peu, motiver des communautés
> > locales à expérimenter un modèle d'import de la donnée. Cela fera ensuite
> > boule de neige ( c'est de saison :)  )
> >
> >
> > *Pierre *
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Le lundi 29 janvier 2018 16:07:31 HNE, Pierre Béland <pierz...@yahoo.fr>
> > a écrit :
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bonjour John
> >
> >
> >
> > Les spécialistes d'imagerie produisent des couches de données assez
> > précises à partir d'imagerie LIDAR ou de drones, incluant, immeubles,
> cours
> > d'eau et occupation du sol. Ces images offrent qualité et précision. Des
> > techniques de classification, interprétation, correction permettent aux
> > spécialistes de converger vers un produit de qualité.  Et bien sûr toutes
> > ces avancées technologiques et l'accès éventuel à des profanes bousculent
> > les habitudes tout comme les véhicules sans conducteur :)
> >
> >
> >
> > Même si Statistique Canada fournit à OSM un fichier produit par des
> > spécialistes, il sera nécessaire ensuite d'établir une procédure
> d'import,
> > de fusionner / aligner avec les données existantes et de corriger.
> >
> >
> >
> > Et ouvront la porte au Futur! Une autre avenue, c'est l'accès aux
> profanes
> > que nous sommes à des outils semi-automatiques pour faciliter la
> > digitalisation de différents éléments tels immeubles, routes et rivières.
> > Je ne connais pas l'historique des expériences d'utilisation de tels
> > outils. Mais on peut remonter en 2011, où on parlait d'un outil de
> > détection de route. Divers articles traitent aussi de ce sujet.
> >
> > https://alastaira.wordpress.com/2011/02/04/automatic-road-
> > detection-using-bing-maps-imagery/
> >
> > https://gis.stackexchange.com/questions/77876/is-there-a-
> > tool-that-performs-automatic-recognition-of-buildings
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Facebook a aussi expérimenté des outils de reconnaissance d'image en
> > Thaîlande récemment. Selon les plaintes de certains contributeurs, les
> > données ont été ajoutées à OSM sans valider suffisamment avec la réalité
> > sur le terrain.
> >
> >
> >
> > Je pense qu'il serait intéressant pour les contributeurs expérimentés
> > d'avoir accès à des outils semi-automatisés facilitant dans JOSM par
> > exemple le tracé d'immeubles, routes, cours d'eau, etc. Pour un cours
> d'eau
> > par exemple, je déplace le curseur de la souris, et les contours et le
> > centre de la rivière sont tracés automatiquement. Ou encore le contour
> d'un
> > lac est tracé.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *Pierre *
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Le lundi 29 janvier 2018 15:15:59 HNE, john whelan <
> jwhelan0...@gmail.com>
> > a écrit :
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ·
> >
> > *NRCan is working on a methodology to extract building footprints,
> > including topographic elevation and height attributes, from LiDAR *
> >
> > *Traditionally OSM has not been happy with this sort of thing.  The
> > accuracy can be poor.*
> >
> > *We probably need to think about this since the BC2020i project had this
> > mentioned a

Re: [Talk-ca] using image recognition to create building foot prints.

[john whelan]

I think when you have something available we should be able to find
resources to double check the quality and also to work out a process to
import them.  The latter will be interesting both from the technical point
of view and the acceptance within the OSM community.

My concern on the Canadian building project was getting reasonable building
outlines from a mixture of mappers given some experiences we've seen in the
past.

Cheerio John

2018-02-02 11:01 GMT-05:00 Gravel, Pierre (NRCan/RNCan) <
pierre.gra...@canada.ca>:

> Hi John, yes I am on the mailing list.
>
> I confirm that we (NRCAN) are working on a process to extract building
> footprints from airborne LiDAR data and we expect to disseminate these
> footprints from June 2018 on Open Map Canada Portal.
>
> The accuracy of these footprints well be very good, but of course that an
> automatic extraction process can’t be better than human eyes.
>
> The quality of these footprints are totally depending on the quality of
> the LiDAR data in input (density and classification) and we will filter
> LiDAR projects that we will use to make sure that the footprints quality
> will meet a minimum threshold.
>
> It’s not an objective of NRCAN to upload these footprints on OSM, but I
> think that these footprints can be a very good start for OSM communities
> then to allow people to improve these footprints.
>
> I take the opportunity to ask you if you accept to give us a feedback on
> these footprints before the official launch.
>
> If yes, It will be my pleasure to provide a pre-production data for those
> who want to check them.
>
>
>
> It sounds good ?
>
>
>
> Best Regards
>
>
>
> Pierre Gravel
>
> Centre canadien de cartographie et d’observation de la terre
>
> Ressources naturelles Canada / Gouvernement du Canada
>
> pierre.gra...@canada.ca / Tél. 819-564-5600 <(819)%20564-5600>, poste 246
>
>
>
> Canadian Center of Mapping and Earth Observation
>
> Natural Resources Canada / Government of Canada
>
> pierre.gra...@canada.ca / Tel. 819-564-5600, x246 <(819)%20564-5600>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Pierre Béland [mailto:pierz...@yahoo.fr]
> *Sent:* January 29, 2018 4:54 PM
> *To:* Talk-CA OpenStreetMap ; john whelan <
> jwhelan0...@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Gravel, Pierre (NRCan/RNCan) 
> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-ca] using image recognition to create building foot
> prints.
>
>
>
> Précision,
>
> Les missions aériennes permettent de produire des images de grande
> qualité.
>
>  On y associe des équipements LIDAR qui émettent un signal vers le sol
> pour mesurer la distance. Aussi bien la technique LIDAR que de petits
> drones sont aujourd'hui capables de produire des modèles d'élévation avec
> quelques centimètres de précision.  Cela permet aussi de produire des
> modèles 3D des immeubles et de distinguer avec la végétation.
>
>
>
> Suite aux inondations du Richelieu et du Lac Champlain en 2011, des
> modèles d'élévation très des zones urbaines en bordure de la rivière
> Richelieu ont été produites.
>
>
>
> Si on se rappelle les discussions il y a quelques mois, un tel travail
> d'import va nécessiter des ressources importantes. Les diverses communautés
> OSM locales devront évaluer leur capacité à réaliser des projets d'import
> d'immeubles. Et il faut éviter de se baser sur le modèle «Cartoparties»
> pour réaliser de tels projets. Des milliers de personnes qui sont
> sensibiliées quelques heures à la cartographie ne reviennent pas ensuite et
> laisse souvent une donnée de piètre qualité.
>
>
>
> Il faut être réaliste et construire peu à peu, motiver des communautés
> locales à expérimenter un modèle d'import de la donnée. Cela fera ensuite
> boule de neige ( c'est de saison :)  )
>
>
> *Pierre *
>
>
>
>
>
> Le lundi 29 janvier 2018 16:07:31 HNE, Pierre Béland 
> a écrit :
>
>
>
>
>
> Bonjour John
>
>
>
> Les spécialistes d'imagerie produisent des couches de données assez
> précises à partir d'imagerie LIDAR ou de drones, incluant, immeubles, cours
> d'eau et occupation du sol. Ces images offrent qualité et précision. Des
> techniques de classification, interprétation, correction permettent aux
> spécialistes de converger vers un produit de qualité.  Et bien sûr toutes
> ces avancées technologiques et l'accès éventuel à des profanes bousculent
> les habitudes tout comme les véhicules sans conducteur :)
>
>
>
> Même si Statistique Canada fournit à OSM un fichier produit par des
> spécialistes, il sera nécessaire ensuite d'établir une procédure d'import,
> de fusionner / aligner avec les données existantes et de corriger.
>
>
>
> Et ouvront la porte au Futur! Une autre avenue, c'est l'accès aux profanes
> que nous sommes à des outils semi-automatiques pour faciliter la
> digitalisation de différents éléments tels immeubles, routes et rivières.
> Je ne connais pas l'historique des expériences d'utilisation de tels
> outils. Mais on peut remonter en 2011, où on parlait d'un outil de
> détection de