Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names in Ontario

2018-02-26 Thread James
usually if its included in name its: Xyz Township not township of xyz

On Feb 26, 2018 3:24 PM, "OSM Volunteer stevea" 
wrote:

> Hi Matthew:
>
> You do fine work here, yet I have a concern about "Township."  I don't
> know if in Canada, a Township is a bit of an "odd duck" like it is in the
> USA.  In the USA, we have county as admin_level=6, township as
> admin_level=7 (in about one-third of states) and city/town/village as
> admin_level=8.  The reason for 7 has to do with the way that a county might
> assign "home rule" responsibilities, which flow from the state extending
> its political administration to the counties, then a county might push this
> through to a "township," a crucial component being that township
> jurisdictions can often (but do not always) cover the ENTIRE county, rather
> than a portion of it, like a city does.  It's a little complicated, it
> varies from state to state, in our Midwest Region it often has to do with
> the way that state surveys were done (not the same in our New England
> Region) and OSM doesn't always align with the US Census Bureau's
> methodologies and/or results, (but does most of the time, there are good
> reasons for why OSM has reached the consensus we have in those exceptional
> cases, and we document these in our wikis).
>
> If Canada (its provinces, actually, I believe) has this same or a similar
> concept of "township," (you might, you might not), then admin_level=7 might
> be correct on Canadian "Township of..." boundaries.  If not, I'm blowing a
> lot of smoke into the equation and I'll thank you for reading and apologize
> for wasting time on this thread.
>
> Yes, they are USA-specific, but we have https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/
> United_States_admin_level (prescriptive, comprehensive) and
> https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_States/Boundaries
> (descriptive, rather more user-friendly/novice-oriented).  You might
> check these out (especially https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/
> WikiProject_United_States/Boundaries#Civil_townships) if Canada has
> "townships" as "potentially completely subdivided county entities" and see
> how we do it here (basically, they are admin_level=7).
>
> Looking at the Canada row in https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Tag:
> boundary%3Dadministrative and https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/
> WikiProject_Canada#Administrative_Boundaries I don't see this, I see that
> "Townships" are agglomerated together with "cities, villages, etc."  If
> that's correct, again, all of this I'm spouting about "Township" can be
> ignored, as it is effectively another word to describe an admin_level=8
> entity and you seem to be fine leaving things that way.
>
> Regards,
> SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names in Ontario

2018-02-26 Thread OSM Volunteer stevea
Hi Matthew:

You do fine work here, yet I have a concern about "Township."  I don't know if 
in Canada, a Township is a bit of an "odd duck" like it is in the USA.  In the 
USA, we have county as admin_level=6, township as admin_level=7 (in about 
one-third of states) and city/town/village as admin_level=8.  The reason for 7 
has to do with the way that a county might assign "home rule" responsibilities, 
which flow from the state extending its political administration to the 
counties, then a county might push this through to a "township," a crucial 
component being that township jurisdictions can often (but do not always) cover 
the ENTIRE county, rather than a portion of it, like a city does.  It's a 
little complicated, it varies from state to state, in our Midwest Region it 
often has to do with the way that state surveys were done (not the same in our 
New England Region) and OSM doesn't always align with the US Census Bureau's 
methodologies and/or results, (but does most of the time, there are good 
reasons for why OSM has reached the consensus we have in those exceptional 
cases, and we document these in our wikis).

If Canada (its provinces, actually, I believe) has this same or a similar 
concept of "township," (you might, you might not), then admin_level=7 might be 
correct on Canadian "Township of..." boundaries.  If not, I'm blowing a lot of 
smoke into the equation and I'll thank you for reading and apologize for 
wasting time on this thread.

Yes, they are USA-specific, but we have 
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/United_States_admin_level (prescriptive, 
comprehensive) and 
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_States/Boundaries (descriptive, 
rather more user-friendly/novice-oriented).  You might check these out 
(especially 
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_States/Boundaries#Civil_townships) 
if Canada has "townships" as "potentially completely subdivided county 
entities" and see how we do it here (basically, they are admin_level=7).

Looking at the Canada row in 
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dadministrative and 
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/WikiProject_Canada#Administrative_Boundaries I don't 
see this, I see that "Townships" are agglomerated together with "cities, 
villages, etc."  If that's correct, again, all of this I'm spouting about 
"Township" can be ignored, as it is effectively another word to describe an 
admin_level=8 entity and you seem to be fine leaving things that way.

Regards,
SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names in Ontario

2018-02-25 Thread Matthew Darwin

Here is an update on progress.

"Municipalities" in Ontario are done.  The following 4 names were 
handled as explained.  (New names came from NRCan)


   2439 Municipality of the Nation   >> La Nation
    710 Municipality Of Markstay-warren   >> Markstay-Warren
    293 Municipality Of St.-charles >> St.-Charles
  1 Municipality of Brockton;Municipality of South Bruce   >> 
Unchanged


Next up the rest of Ontario: Townships, Districts, Countys and Towns, 
as follows:



   6466 Township of West Lincoln
   5261 Township of Galway-Cavendish and Harvey
   5063 Township of Rideau Lakes
   4792 Township of Oro-Medonte
   4533 Township of Smith-Ennismore-Lakefield
   4346 Township of South Glengarry
   4222 Township of Severn
   4151 Township of Minden Hills
   3883 Township of St. Clair
   3839 Township of Wainfleet
   3828 Township of Centre Wellington
   3778 Township of Scugog
   3776 Township of Tiny
   3725 Township of Springwater
   3648 Township of Strathroy-Caradoc
   3539 Township of South Dundas
   3481 Township of North Glengarry
   3388 Township of Tay Valley
   3268 Township of Leeds and the Thousand Islands
   3202 Township of North Dundas
   3149 Township of South Frontenac
   3056 Township of Seguin
   3044 Township of King
   3006 Township of Clearview
   2975 Township of South Stormont
   2847 Township of Ramara
   2845 Township of Brock
   2827 Township of Havelock-Belmont-Methuen
   2790 Township of Woolwich
   2785 Township of Tay
   2755 Township of Georgian Bluffs
   2743 Township of Uxbridge
   2704 Township of Elizabethtown-Kitley
   2636 Township of Hamilton
   2627 Township of Alnwick/Haldimand
   2599 Township of Essa
   2517 Township of Drummond/North Elmsley
   2494 Township of North Stormont
   2463 Township of North Kawartha
   2455 Township of Mapleton
   2420 Township of Huron-Kinloss
   2416 Township of Stone Mills
   2265 Township of Loyalist
   2192 Township of Chatsworth
   2191 Township of Zorra
   2173 Township of Norwich
   2144 Township of Southgate
   2055 Township of Russell
   2036 Township of Adjala-Tosorontio
   2023 Township of Douro-Dummer
   2012 Township of Alfred and Plantagenet
   2003 Township of Lanark Highlands
   1977 Township of Edwardsburgh/Cardinal
   1939 Township of Cavan-Monaghan
   1867 Township of Otonabee-South Monaghan
   1822 Township of Wellington North
   1715 Township of Central Frontenac
   1636 Township of Dawn-Euphemia
   1569 Township of Champlain
   1560 Township of South-West Oxford
   1554 Township of Malahide
   1554 Township of Cramahe
   1522 Township of Augusta
   1491 Township of North Dumfries
   1463 Township of Algonquin Highlands
   1450 Township of Guelph/Eramosa
   1414 Township of Wellesley
   1405 Township of Perth East
   1400 Township of Stirling-Rawdon
   1363 Township of Central Manitoulin
   1250 Township of Asphodel-Norwood
   1203 Township of Tyendinaga
   1136 Township of Southwold
   1124 Township of Mulmur
   1092 Township of Sables-Spanish Rivers
   1084 Township of Melancthon
   1043 Township of Amaranth
    988 Township of Enniskillen
    966 Township of Blandford-Blenheim
    933 Township of Carling
    910 Township of McKellar
    907 Township of Madoc
    906 Township of Puslinch
    900 Township of Lucan Biddulph
    868 Township of Montague
    845 Township of Warwick
    842 Township of Addington Highlands
    834 Township of East Hawkesbury
    813 Township of Athens
    767 Township of Adelaide-Metcalfe
    745 Township of Front of Yonge
    732 Township of East Luther Grand Valley
    710 Township of Perry
    672 Township Of Laurentian Valley
    654 Township of East Garafraxa
    640 Township of Georgian Bay
    629 Township of Lake of Bays
    623 Township of East Zorra-Tavistock
    609 Township Of St. Joseph
    571 Township of Frontenac Islands
    546 Township of Muskoka Lakes
    528 Township of Nipigon
    518 Township of Terrace Bay
    512 Township Of Black River-matheson
    488 Township of Beckwith
    470 Township Of Macdonald, Meredith And Aberdeen Additional
    439 Township of Strong
    412 Township of McMurrich-Monteith
    412 Township of Armour
    407 Township of the Archipelago
    362 Township of Schreiber
    345 Township of Madawaska Valley
    342 Township Of Chapleau
    334 Township Of Plummer Additional
    322 Township of Pelee
    313 Township of MacHar
    312 Township Of Laird
    306 Township Of Johnson
    302 Township Of Manitouwadge
    291 Township of North Frontenac
    276 Township of Red Rock
    275 Township of Billings
    273 Township Of Hornepayne
    270 Township Of Jocelyn
    254 Township of Dorion
    251 Township Of Moonbeam
    239 Township Of Tarbutt And Tarbutt Additional
    238 Township Of Hilton
    236 Township of Ryerson
    223 Township of McNab/Braeside
    219 Township of Assiginack
    213 Township Of The North Shore
    208 Township of Nipissing
    204 Township of Perth South
    184 Township Of Prince
    182 Township Of 

Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names in Ontario

2018-02-23 Thread Matthew Darwin
I will leave the wonky towns (the ones that have parentheses) for 
cleanup later.  The other "Town Of" are done.


I am working on "Municipality Of" now.

On 2018-02-18 11:04 PM, Matthew Darwin wrote:


Hi Bill,

Thanks for the feedback.  OSM is updated accordingly.

I also changed "City of Prince Edward County" to "Prince Edward" (I 
didn't receive any comments on that one).   "City Of" updates in 
Ontario is now complete (at least until someone adds another one).


Updates to "Town Of" are now in  progress.   If anyone has comments 
about how to handle the following please do speak up:


   3053 Town of the Blue Mountains   => "Blue Mountains"  [remove "the"]
 14 Town of Caledon (Bolton)
  2 Town of Whitchurch-Stouffville (Stouffville)
  2 Town of Caledon (Sandhill)
  1 Town of Saugeen Shores (Southampton)
  1 Town of Mono (Rosemont)
  1 Town of Huntsville (Port Sydney)
  1 Town of Clarington (Enniskillen)

Following towns, I will be updating "Municipality Of" (after that 
"Township Of").  The list for "Municipality Of" is:


  22881 Municipality of Chatham-Kent
   9906 Municipality of Clarington
   3962 Municipality of West Grey
   3929 Municipality of Grey Highlands
   3815 Municipality of Kincardine
   3690 Municipality of Trent Hills
   3549 Municipality of Leamington
   3543 Municipality of Middlesex Centre
   3293 Municipality of Port Hope
   3284 Municipality of North Grenville
   3192 Municipality of Brockton
   2794 Municipality of Meaford
   2793 Municipality of Highlands East
   2706 Municipality of Arran-Elderslie
   2462 Municipality of Thames Centre
   2439 Municipality of the Nation
   2418 Municipality of Tweed
   2320 Municipality of Southwest Middlesex
   2275 Municipality of Brighton
   2194 Municipality of North Perth
   2145 Municipality of Northern Bruce Peninsula
   1981 Municipality of Central Elgin
   1634 Municipality of South Bruce
   1501 Municipality Of Greenstone
   1462 Municipality of Marmora and Lake
   1424 Municipality of Oliver Paipoonge
   1374 Municipality of Hastings Highlands
   1265 Municipality of Centre Hastings
   1227 Municipality of West Nipissing
   1197 Municipality of Brooke-Alvinston
   1168 Municipality of Bayham
   1060 Municipality of Whitestone
   1015 Municipality of McDougall
    989 Municipality of French River
    943 Municipality of Wawa
    895 Municipality of Magnetawan
    817 Municipality of Shuniah
    790 Municipality of Lambton Shores
    710 Municipality Of Markstay-warren
    665 Municipality of Neebing
    634 Municipality Of Huron Shores
    460 Municipality of West Elgin
    414 Municipality of Huron Shores
    367 Municipality of Dutton/Dunwich
    293 Municipality Of St.-charles
    281 Municipality of Powassan
    236 Municipality of North Middlesex
    165 Municipality of Killarney
 47 Municipality Of West Nipissing
 46 Municipality Of Charlton And Dack
 23 Municipality Of Wawa
 18 Municipality of Callander
  7 Municipality Of Sioux Lookout
  4 Municipality Of Killarney
  2 Municipality Of French River
  1 Municipality of Brockton;Municipality of South Bruce


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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-19 Thread Matthew Darwin
I have summarized the discussion we had here over the last week or so  
on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines for 
easy reference in the future.  It is:



   Municipality Names

Municipality names are to be spelt according to how they are listed in 
NRCan (http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/search) or other 
official source. That means:


 *

   Do not include "City of", "Municipality of" or similar in the name
   unless that is officially part of the name.   "Village of Queen
   Charlotte" (BC) is correct, "City of Toronto" is incorrect (should
   be "Toronto").

 *

   Do not expand "St." to "Saint" or "Ste" to "Sainte" just to
   conform to OSM's "don't abbreviate names" rule. If the city name
   is normally has it expanded, then it is maintained as expanded in
   OSM. If it is not normally expanded, then it is not expanded in
   OSM. "Saint John" (NB) and "St. John's" (NL) are both correct.


Feel free to clarify further on the wiki or continue the discussion 
here...



Matthew Darwin
matt...@mdarwin.ca
http://www.mdarwin.ca

On 2018-02-19 06:33 PM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:

On 2018-02-19 05:08 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:

Have you passed by talk-gb? They have a fair amount of "St" names and
some authority as to how to do things in OSM.

The UK has Bury St Edmunds, Chapel St Leonards, Lytham St Annes, Ottery
St Mary, St Andrews, St Anne, St Austell, St Blazey, St Columb Major, St
Helens, St Ives, St Monans and St Neots all as town names in OSM. The
only two "Saint .*" towns in the whole British Isles' OSM are Saint
Helier and Saint Peter Port, both in the Channel Islands. Both have
French influences. And just to thumb its nose at us, nearby Alderney has
the town of "St Anne". So I don't think they can be a great example.

Near "St. Louis" (Missouri - abbreviated that way in OSM), OSM has the
towns of "Saint Clair" and "Saint James". In the same area, there's St.
Charles, St. Peters and East St. Louis (IL). In the St. Louis metro
area, there are roughly 4500 ways named "St\. Louis.*" and roughly 3500
ways named "St Louis.*". There are also roughly 3500 ways named "Saint .*"

So this is not a standard well kept.

  Stewart

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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names (Jarek Piórkowski)

2018-02-19 Thread OSM Volunteer stevea
> On 2018-02-19 05:08 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
>> Have you passed by talk-gb? They have a fair amount of "St" names and
>> some authority as to how to do things in OSM.

I haven't, but I shall.  As I say quite a bit (in our wiki, e.g. 
California/Railroads), "it's complicated around here."  THEN, there is what we 
do about that in OSM.  (Our best).

On Feb 19, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Stewart C. Russell  wrote:
> The UK has Bury St Edmunds, Chapel St Leonards, Lytham St Annes, Ottery
> St Mary, St Andrews, St Anne, St Austell, St Blazey, St Columb Major, St
> Helens, St Ives, St Monans and St Neots all as town names in OSM. The
> only two "Saint .*" towns in the whole British Isles' OSM are Saint
> Helier and Saint Peter Port, both in the Channel Islands. Both have
> French influences. And just to thumb its nose at us, nearby Alderney has
> the town of "St Anne". So I don't think they can be a great example.

I do not mean to appear to be "the pot calling the kettle black" (even as I 
sheepishly may).  OSM learns by example, by documenting how we should tag 
(prescriptive) and how we do tag (descriptive), — this isn't always clear or 
spelled out — by research such as you've done and by good dialog like here.

> Near "St. Louis" (Missouri - abbreviated that way in OSM), OSM has the
> towns of "Saint Clair" and "Saint James". In the same area, there's St.
> Charles, St. Peters and East St. Louis (IL). In the St. Louis metro
> area, there are roughly 4500 ways named "St\. Louis.*" and roughly 3500
> ways named "St Louis.*". There are also roughly 3500 ways named "Saint .*"
> 
> So this is not a standard well kept.

And we make our point:  OSM doesn't always follow its own rules.  Crowdsourcing 
can be messy, yet we try to improve day by day.  Thanks to all for getting here!

SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names (Jarek Piórkowski)

2018-02-19 Thread Stewart C. Russell
On 2018-02-19 05:08 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
> 
> Have you passed by talk-gb? They have a fair amount of "St" names and
> some authority as to how to do things in OSM.

The UK has Bury St Edmunds, Chapel St Leonards, Lytham St Annes, Ottery
St Mary, St Andrews, St Anne, St Austell, St Blazey, St Columb Major, St
Helens, St Ives, St Monans and St Neots all as town names in OSM. The
only two "Saint .*" towns in the whole British Isles' OSM are Saint
Helier and Saint Peter Port, both in the Channel Islands. Both have
French influences. And just to thumb its nose at us, nearby Alderney has
the town of "St Anne". So I don't think they can be a great example.

Near "St. Louis" (Missouri - abbreviated that way in OSM), OSM has the
towns of "Saint Clair" and "Saint James". In the same area, there's St.
Charles, St. Peters and East St. Louis (IL). In the St. Louis metro
area, there are roughly 4500 ways named "St\. Louis.*" and roughly 3500
ways named "St Louis.*". There are also roughly 3500 ways named "Saint .*"

So this is not a standard well kept.

 Stewart

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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-19 Thread OSM Volunteer stevea
Thank you, Matthew.  As I said, "slavishly follow rules," no, not necessarily.  
"Understand the issues," yes, through good dialog.  I like what I see here, it 
allows good consensus to emerge, tedious and perhaps even a bit annoying as it 
may be. :-)

SteveA

On Feb 19, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
> I respectively I contend that it is not all abbreviations in OSM needs to be 
> expanded, not withstanding of the general direction to expand abbreviations 
> in OSM.  It is illogical to change the well used name of a location.
> 
> There is even a wiki page which has been around since 2010 that lists some 
> exceptions to what should be expanded in the UK: 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion

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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names (Jarek Piórkowski)

2018-02-19 Thread Jarek Piórkowski
Steve -

"St. Catharines" is the the official name, _and_ the local name. One can
invent a full name, but it would be an invention.

Have you passed by talk-gb? They have a fair amount of "St" names and some
authority as to how to do things in OSM.

--Jarek


On Feb 19, 2018 22:49, "OSM Volunteer stevea" <stevea...@softworkers.com>
wrote:

I continue to assert that our (OSM's) name=* wiki states these
abbreviations should be fully expanded and that official_name=* might hold
the abbreviation.  In short, "them's the rules" in OSM:  part of why I'm
pounding so hard on this is that I might get some recognition that OSM does
have rules to follow.  (Slavishly?  Well, perhaps yes, perhaps no, but
please analyze and fully understand the issues before taking exception to
them).  There are good reasons for this "no abbreviations" tenet which have
to do with software parsers being able to do sane things.

Jarek and I have exchanged opinions, though what he distilled for me from
his point of view is that "software parsing of names is fraught with
problems..." and so we should/must "fix these problems in the data."
Again, I respectfully disagree:  the data are to be full names without
abbreviations SO THAT software parsers have a consistent set of data to
use.  This is at least partly why official_name and loc_name exist.

I realize that as somebody from outside Canada, some may feel I clomp
clumsily here, as I don't want to get in the way of "how Canada does
things."  However, what we are talking about is "how Canada does things IN
OSM" and about that, I am not outside the tent, I am inside of it.  I
continue to respect good dialog while realizing that all of us, as we
display our passion in this forum, "wish to do the right things."

SteveA


> On Feb 19, 2018, at 1:32 PM, Kevin Farrugia <kevinfarru...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> St. Catharines was founded by Loyalists, so they would have been English
speaking making comparing with Quebecois names isn't the greatest idea.
Ontario's place names generally have more in common with British convention
than with French/Quebecois historical conventions.  The city's corporate
name uses "St." as does all city and provincial spellings of their name.
In the end, the province has the authority to make a municipal name
"official" and their spelling is only ever found as "St." in any document.
>
> -Kevin Farrugia
> kevinfarru...@gmail.com
>
> On 19 February 2018 at 15:31, Ga Delap <gade...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 23:56:20 +0100
> > From: Jarek Piórkowski <ja...@piorkowski.ca>
> > Cc: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
> > Message-ID:
> 

Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-19 Thread Matthew Darwin

Steve,

I respectively I contend that it is not all abbreviations in OSM needs 
to be expanded, not withstanding of the general direction to expand 
abbreviations in OSM.  It is illogical to change the well used name of 
a location.


There is even a wiki page which has been around since 2010 that lists 
some exceptions to what should be expanded in the UK: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion



On 2018-02-19 04:49 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

I continue to assert that our (OSM's) name=* wiki states these abbreviations should be fully 
expanded and that official_name=* might hold the abbreviation.  In short, "them's the 
rules" in OSM:  part of why I'm pounding so hard on this is that I might get some recognition 
that OSM does have rules to follow.  (Slavishly?  Well, perhaps yes, perhaps no, but please analyze 
and fully understand the issues before taking exception to them).  There are good reasons for this 
"no abbreviations" tenet which have to do with software parsers being able to do sane 
things.

Jarek and I have exchanged opinions, though what he distilled for me from his point of view is that 
"software parsing of names is fraught with problems..." and so we should/must "fix 
these problems in the data."  Again, I respectfully disagree:  the data are to be full names 
without abbreviations SO THAT software parsers have a consistent set of data to use.  This is at 
least partly why official_name and loc_name exist.

I realize that as somebody from outside Canada, some may feel I clomp clumsily here, as I don't want to get 
in the way of "how Canada does things."  However, what we are talking about is "how Canada 
does things IN OSM" and about that, I am not outside the tent, I am inside of it.  I continue to respect 
good dialog while realizing that all of us, as we display our passion in this forum, "wish to do the 
right things."

SteveA



On Feb 19, 2018, at 1:32 PM, Kevin Farrugia <kevinfarru...@gmail.com> wrote:
St. Catharines was founded by Loyalists, so they would have been English speaking making comparing with 
Quebecois names isn't the greatest idea.  Ontario's place names generally have more in common with British 
convention than with French/Quebecois historical conventions.  The city's corporate name uses "St." 
as does all city and provincial spellings of their name.  In the end, the province has the authority to make 
a municipal name "official" and their spelling is only ever found as "St." in any 
document.

-Kevin Farrugia
kevinfarru...@gmail.com

On 19 February 2018 at 15:31, Ga Delap <gade...@gmail.com> wrote:

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 23:56:20 +0100
From: Jarek Piórkowski <ja...@piorkowski.ca>
Cc: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
Message-ID:

 

Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names (Jarek Piórkowski)

2018-02-19 Thread OSM Volunteer stevea
I continue to assert that our (OSM's) name=* wiki states these abbreviations 
should be fully expanded and that official_name=* might hold the abbreviation.  
In short, "them's the rules" in OSM:  part of why I'm pounding so hard on this 
is that I might get some recognition that OSM does have rules to follow.  
(Slavishly?  Well, perhaps yes, perhaps no, but please analyze and fully 
understand the issues before taking exception to them).  There are good reasons 
for this "no abbreviations" tenet which have to do with software parsers being 
able to do sane things.

Jarek and I have exchanged opinions, though what he distilled for me from his 
point of view is that "software parsing of names is fraught with problems..." 
and so we should/must "fix these problems in the data."  Again, I respectfully 
disagree:  the data are to be full names without abbreviations SO THAT software 
parsers have a consistent set of data to use.  This is at least partly why 
official_name and loc_name exist.

I realize that as somebody from outside Canada, some may feel I clomp clumsily 
here, as I don't want to get in the way of "how Canada does things."  However, 
what we are talking about is "how Canada does things IN OSM" and about that, I 
am not outside the tent, I am inside of it.  I continue to respect good dialog 
while realizing that all of us, as we display our passion in this forum, "wish 
to do the right things."

SteveA


> On Feb 19, 2018, at 1:32 PM, Kevin Farrugia <kevinfarru...@gmail.com> wrote:
> St. Catharines was founded by Loyalists, so they would have been English 
> speaking making comparing with Quebecois names isn't the greatest idea.  
> Ontario's place names generally have more in common with British convention 
> than with French/Quebecois historical conventions.  The city's corporate name 
> uses "St." as does all city and provincial spellings of their name.  In the 
> end, the province has the authority to make a municipal name "official" and 
> their spelling is only ever found as "St." in any document.
> 
> -Kevin Farrugia
> kevinfarru...@gmail.com
> 
> On 19 February 2018 at 15:31, Ga Delap <gade...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 23:56:20 +0100
> > From: Jarek Piórkowski <ja...@piorkowski.ca>
> > Cc: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
> > Message-ID:
> 

Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names (Jarek Piórkowski)

2018-02-19 Thread Kevin Farrugia
St. Catharines was founded by Loyalists, so they would have been English
speaking making comparing with Quebecois names isn't the greatest idea.
Ontario's place names generally have more in common with British convention
than with French/Quebecois historical conventions.  The city's corporate
name uses "St." as does all city and provincial spellings of their name.
In the end, the province has the authority to make a municipal name
"official" and their spelling is only ever found as "St." in any document.

-Kevin Farrugia
kevinfarru...@gmail.com

On 19 February 2018 at 15:31, Ga Delap <gade...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 23:56:20 +0100
> > From: Jarek Piórkowski <ja...@piorkowski.ca>
> > Cc: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
> > Message-ID:
> 

Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names (Jarek Piórkowski)

2018-02-19 Thread Ga Delap
> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 23:56:20 +0100
> From: Jarek Piórkowski <ja...@piorkowski.ca>
> Cc: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
> Message-ID:

Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names in Ontario

2018-02-19 Thread Stewart C. Russell
On 2018-02-18 11:04 PM, Matthew Darwin wrote:
> 
>   2 Town of Whitchurch-Stouffville (Stouffville)

Like so many post-Amalgamation towns, Whitchurch-Stouffville is the
official name (http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/unique/FDOLC).
There are some real doozies out there: Ashfield-Colborne-Wawanosh,
Smith-Ennismore-Lakefield, Havelock-Belmont-Methuen …

Having spent several years working on a project in
Ashfield-Colborne-Wawanosh (just north of Goderich), the new name hadn't
exactly taken.

cheers,
 Stewart

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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names in Ontario

2018-02-19 Thread Matthew Darwin
Yes, I plan to do some systematic review of the admin_level tags 
comparing them to addr:city / addr:suburb.   This way the community 
can have a data-based discussion on if addr:city etc tags are needed, 
or the bounaries are good enough or whatever. But first step, we need 
some analysis.


However, I don't have enough spare compute to run all those 
calculations at a canada level.  (My plan is to load a subset of 
canada.osm into postgis and run queries against it.)  Does anyone have 
spare compute they can loan to this project?  Or alternate plan that 
needs less compute.   Using QA tiles might be nice, but QA tiles 
doesn't include relations.



On 2018-02-19 12:40 AM, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

It's good to see that admin_level tags (always 8?  they might be 7 if township, that's a 
chunky topic...) are there.  What I mean by "cutting room floor recycling" 
includes this thought:  it couldn't hurt to update/touch-up/fix these after a cursory 
examination that's they are thumbs-up/thumbs-down, need a touch-up.

SteveA


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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names in Ontario

2018-02-18 Thread OSM Volunteer stevea
It's good to see that admin_level tags (always 8?  they might be 7 if township, 
that's a chunky topic...) are there.  What I mean by "cutting room floor 
recycling" includes this thought:  it couldn't hurt to update/touch-up/fix 
these after a cursory examination that's they are thumbs-up/thumbs-down, need a 
touch-up.

SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names in Ontario

2018-02-18 Thread Matthew Darwin

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the feedback.  OSM is updated accordingly.

I also changed "City of Prince Edward County" to "Prince Edward" (I 
didn't receive any comments on that one).   "City Of" updates in 
Ontario is now complete (at least until someone adds another one).


Updates to "Town Of" are now in  progress.   If anyone has comments 
about how to handle the following please do speak up:


   3053 Town of the Blue Mountains   => "Blue Mountains" [remove "the"]
 14 Town of Caledon (Bolton)
  2 Town of Whitchurch-Stouffville (Stouffville)
  2 Town of Caledon (Sandhill)
  1 Town of Saugeen Shores (Southampton)
  1 Town of Mono (Rosemont)
  1 Town of Huntsville (Port Sydney)
  1 Town of Clarington (Enniskillen)

Following towns, I will be updating "Municipality Of" (after that 
"Township Of").  The list for "Municipality Of" is:


  22881 Municipality of Chatham-Kent
   9906 Municipality of Clarington
   3962 Municipality of West Grey
   3929 Municipality of Grey Highlands
   3815 Municipality of Kincardine
   3690 Municipality of Trent Hills
   3549 Municipality of Leamington
   3543 Municipality of Middlesex Centre
   3293 Municipality of Port Hope
   3284 Municipality of North Grenville
   3192 Municipality of Brockton
   2794 Municipality of Meaford
   2793 Municipality of Highlands East
   2706 Municipality of Arran-Elderslie
   2462 Municipality of Thames Centre
   2439 Municipality of the Nation
   2418 Municipality of Tweed
   2320 Municipality of Southwest Middlesex
   2275 Municipality of Brighton
   2194 Municipality of North Perth
   2145 Municipality of Northern Bruce Peninsula
   1981 Municipality of Central Elgin
   1634 Municipality of South Bruce
   1501 Municipality Of Greenstone
   1462 Municipality of Marmora and Lake
   1424 Municipality of Oliver Paipoonge
   1374 Municipality of Hastings Highlands
   1265 Municipality of Centre Hastings
   1227 Municipality of West Nipissing
   1197 Municipality of Brooke-Alvinston
   1168 Municipality of Bayham
   1060 Municipality of Whitestone
   1015 Municipality of McDougall
    989 Municipality of French River
    943 Municipality of Wawa
    895 Municipality of Magnetawan
    817 Municipality of Shuniah
    790 Municipality of Lambton Shores
    710 Municipality Of Markstay-warren
    665 Municipality of Neebing
    634 Municipality Of Huron Shores
    460 Municipality of West Elgin
    414 Municipality of Huron Shores
    367 Municipality of Dutton/Dunwich
    293 Municipality Of St.-charles
    281 Municipality of Powassan
    236 Municipality of North Middlesex
    165 Municipality of Killarney
 47 Municipality Of West Nipissing
 46 Municipality Of Charlton And Dack
 23 Municipality Of Wawa
 18 Municipality of Callander
  7 Municipality Of Sioux Lookout
  4 Municipality Of Killarney
  2 Municipality Of French River
  1 Municipality of Brockton;Municipality of South Bruce

On 2018-02-17 02:18 PM, Bill & Kathy Patterson wrote:

I can speak to Maple, living a few km north of it.  The OSM wiki states:
—CLIP—
Use place <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place>=suburb to 
identify a major area in a place 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place>=town 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dtown> or place 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place>=city 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dcity> with a 
distinct and recognised local name and identity. Suburbs may have 
uncertain boundaries, may overlap with other suburbs, and are often 
best mapped using a node.
For areas within a suburb, the tag place 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place>=neighbourhood 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dneighbourhood> will 
usually be used. If necessary, place 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place>=quarter 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dquarter> may be 
used for an area of a large settlement which is smaller than a 
suburb and larger than a neighbourhood.

—END CLIP—
and on that basis I'd say yes, Maple is definitely a suburb of 
Vaughan, as are 1/2 of Thornhill, Concord, Woodbridge, and 
Kleinburg.  Purpleville and Nashville should likely be classified as 
neighbourhoods, and Hope and Burrlington (note double "r") as 
pioneer communities.


16796 Town of Markham, has been a city for a few years.

Bill Patterson

--------------
*From:* Matthew Darwin <matt...@mdarwin.ca>
*To:* talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
*Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2018 11:43 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names in Ontario

The following 2 are not changed, as per my previous comment that I 
will not update the name if it does not exist in NRCan without 
further review here.


1)  3 Ci

Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names in Ontario

2018-02-17 Thread Bill & Kathy Patterson
I can speak to Maple, living a few km north of it.  The OSM wiki 
states:—CLIP—Use place=suburb to identify a major area in a place=town or 
place=city with a distinct and recognised local name and identity. Suburbs may 
have uncertain boundaries, may overlap with other suburbs, and are often best 
mapped using a node.For areas within a suburb, the tag place=neighbourhood will 
usually be used. If necessary, place=quarter may be used for an area of a large 
settlement which is smaller than a suburb and larger than a neighbourhood.—END 
CLIP—and on that basis I'd say yes, Maple is definitely a suburb of Vaughan, as 
are 1/2 of Thornhill, Concord, Woodbridge, and Kleinburg.  Purpleville and 
Nashville should likely be classified as neighbourhoods, and Hope and 
Burrlington (note double "r") as pioneer communities.
16796 Town of Markham, has been a city for a few years.
Bill Patterson

  From: Matthew Darwin <matt...@mdarwin.ca>
 To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org 
 Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 11:43 AM
 Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names in Ontario
   
 The following 2 are not changed, as per my previous comment that I will not 
update the name if it does not exist in NRCan without further review here.
 
 1)  3 City of Vaughan (Maple)
 
 Probably "Maple" should in the addr:suburb field instead? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple,_Ontario
 
 2)   6165 City of Prince Edward County
 
 There is a "Prince Edward" as a City in Ontario not "Prince Edward County" as 
a city. Need to drop the word "County"  
http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/unique/FEQSA
 
 Comments?
 
 
 Edits are in progress for the other cities that I previously listed...
 
 Next up, towns:
 
   16796 Town of Markham
   11080 Town of Fort Erie
   10641 Town of Whitby
    7441 Town of Ajax
    7389 Town of Milton
    7025 Town of Lincoln
    6689 Town of Caledon
    6460 Town of Niagara-On-The-Lake
    5995 Town of Georgina
    5947 Town of Innisfil
    5886 Town of Newmarket
    5827 Town of Halton Hills
    5381 Town of Lakeshore
    5036 Town of Pelham
    4914 Town of South Bruce Peninsula
    4796 Town of Wasaga Beach
    4680 Town of Grimsby
    4474 Town of Essex
    4405 Town of Whitchurch-Stouffville
    4244 Town of Aurora
    4127 Town of Saugeen Shores
    3803 Town of New Tecumseth
    3720 Town of Collingwood
    3574 Town of Kingsville
    3188 Town of Amherstburg
    3097 Town of Tecumseh
    3053 Town of the Blue Mountains
    3050 Town of Greater Napanee
    2927 Town of Gravenhurst
    2837 Town of Midland
    2689 Town of Tillsonburg
    2667 Town of East Gwillimbury
    2600 Town of Lasalle
    2542 Town of Bradford West Gwillimbury
    2390 Town of Cobourg
    2201 Town of Plympton-Wyoming
    1993 Town of Erin
    1751 Town of Smiths Falls
    1648 Town of Ingersoll
    1587 Town of Penetanguishene
    1527 Town of Mono
    1506 Town Of Petawawa
    1416 Town of Hanover
    1388 Town of Huntsville
    1328 Town of Mississippi Mills
    1219 Town Of Kirkland Lake
    1217 Town of Hawkesbury
    1113 Town Of Kapuskasing
    1105 Town of Petrolia
    1043 Town of Perth
     982 Town of Parry Sound
     917 Town of Gananoque
     914 Town of Prescott
     897 Town Of Hearst
     847 Town of Espanola
     803 Town Of Iroquois Falls
     792 Town of Minto
     784 Town of Aylmer
     715 Town of Marathon
     706 Town Of Cochrane
     673 Town of Shelburne
     669 Town of Carleton Place
     528 Town of Arnprior
     505 Town of Kearney
     492 Town Of Deep River
     436 Town of Blind River
     409 Town of Northeastern Manitoulin and the Islands
     398 Town of Deseronto
     396 Town of Bracebridge
     326 Town Of Thessalon
     278 Town Of Bruce Mines
     256 Town Of Smooth Rock Falls
     256 Town Of Blind River
     238 Town of Gore Bay
     218 Town of Deep River
     211 Town of Spanish
  92 Town Of Laurentian Hills
  90 Town of St. Marys
  14 Town of Caledon (Bolton)
  14 Town Of Bancroft
   7 Town of Laurentian Hills
   5 Town Of Spanish
   2 Town of Whitchurch-Stouffville (Stouffville)
   2 Town of Caledon (Sandhill)
   1 Town of Saugeen Shores (Southampton)
   1 Town of Mono (Rosemont)
   1 Town of Huntsville (Port Sydney)
   1 Town of Clarington (Enniskillen)
 
 On 2018-02-16 12:41 PM, Matthew Darwin wrote:
  
 
To start the cleanup process, the following Ontario cities are being changed 
(remove "City of" or "City Of").   Once that is done, I'll come back with the 
next batch to process...
  The idea to remove the city name in its entirety will require careful 
consideration to ensure the necessary boundary relations are in place and of 
course more discussion to see if people are comfortable to proceed on that kind 
of activity.
   110707 City of Toronto
   45716 City of Hamilton
   27234 City of London
   25393 City of Brampton
   17251 City of Vaug

Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names in Ontario

2018-02-17 Thread Matthew Darwin
The following 2 are not changed, as per my previous comment that I 
will not update the name if it does not exist in NRCan without further 
review here.


1)  3 City of Vaughan (Maple)

Probably "Maple" should in the addr:suburb field instead? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple,_Ontario


2)   6165 City of Prince Edward County

There is a "Prince Edward" as a City in Ontario not "Prince Edward 
County" as a city. Need to drop the word "County" 
http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/unique/FEQSA


Comments?


Edits are in progress for the other cities that I previously listed...

Next up, towns:

  16796 Town of Markham
  11080 Town of Fort Erie
  10641 Town of Whitby
   7441 Town of Ajax
   7389 Town of Milton
   7025 Town of Lincoln
   6689 Town of Caledon
   6460 Town of Niagara-On-The-Lake
   5995 Town of Georgina
   5947 Town of Innisfil
   5886 Town of Newmarket
   5827 Town of Halton Hills
   5381 Town of Lakeshore
   5036 Town of Pelham
   4914 Town of South Bruce Peninsula
   4796 Town of Wasaga Beach
   4680 Town of Grimsby
   4474 Town of Essex
   4405 Town of Whitchurch-Stouffville
   4244 Town of Aurora
   4127 Town of Saugeen Shores
   3803 Town of New Tecumseth
   3720 Town of Collingwood
   3574 Town of Kingsville
   3188 Town of Amherstburg
   3097 Town of Tecumseh
   3053 Town of the Blue Mountains
   3050 Town of Greater Napanee
   2927 Town of Gravenhurst
   2837 Town of Midland
   2689 Town of Tillsonburg
   2667 Town of East Gwillimbury
   2600 Town of Lasalle
   2542 Town of Bradford West Gwillimbury
   2390 Town of Cobourg
   2201 Town of Plympton-Wyoming
   1993 Town of Erin
   1751 Town of Smiths Falls
   1648 Town of Ingersoll
   1587 Town of Penetanguishene
   1527 Town of Mono
   1506 Town Of Petawawa
   1416 Town of Hanover
   1388 Town of Huntsville
   1328 Town of Mississippi Mills
   1219 Town Of Kirkland Lake
   1217 Town of Hawkesbury
   1113 Town Of Kapuskasing
   1105 Town of Petrolia
   1043 Town of Perth
    982 Town of Parry Sound
    917 Town of Gananoque
    914 Town of Prescott
    897 Town Of Hearst
    847 Town of Espanola
    803 Town Of Iroquois Falls
    792 Town of Minto
    784 Town of Aylmer
    715 Town of Marathon
    706 Town Of Cochrane
    673 Town of Shelburne
    669 Town of Carleton Place
    528 Town of Arnprior
    505 Town of Kearney
    492 Town Of Deep River
    436 Town of Blind River
    409 Town of Northeastern Manitoulin and the Islands
    398 Town of Deseronto
    396 Town of Bracebridge
    326 Town Of Thessalon
    278 Town Of Bruce Mines
    256 Town Of Smooth Rock Falls
    256 Town Of Blind River
    238 Town of Gore Bay
    218 Town of Deep River
    211 Town of Spanish
 92 Town Of Laurentian Hills
 90 Town of St. Marys
 14 Town of Caledon (Bolton)
 14 Town Of Bancroft
  7 Town of Laurentian Hills
  5 Town Of Spanish
  2 Town of Whitchurch-Stouffville (Stouffville)
  2 Town of Caledon (Sandhill)
  1 Town of Saugeen Shores (Southampton)
  1 Town of Mono (Rosemont)
  1 Town of Huntsville (Port Sydney)
  1 Town of Clarington (Enniskillen)

On 2018-02-16 12:41 PM, Matthew Darwin wrote:


To start the cleanup process, the following *Ontario* cities are 
being changed (remove "City of" or "City Of").   Once that is done, 
I'll come back with the next batch to process...


The idea to remove the city name in its entirety will require 
careful consideration to ensure the necessary boundary relations are 
in place and of course more discussion to see if people are 
comfortable to proceed on that kind of activity.


 110707 City of Toronto
  45716 City of Hamilton
  27234 City of London
  25393 City of Brampton
  17251 City of Vaughan
  16929 City of St. Catharines
  16592 City of Kawartha Lakes
  16087 City of Thunder Bay
  14787 City of Niagara Falls
  13966 City of Kingston
  12085 City of Oshawa
  11321 City of Barrie
  10981 City of Burlington
  10347 City of Guelph
   9666 City of Brantford
   9384 City of Sarnia
   9102 City of Windsor
   9044 City Of Sault Ste. Marie
   8263 City of Peterborough
   7819 City of Quinte West
   7593 City of Welland
   6753 City of Pickering
   6608 City of Greater Sudbury
   6375 City Of Greater Sudbury
   6239 City of Belleville
   6165 City of Prince Edward County
   5696 City of Cornwall
   5269 City Of Timmins
   4877 City of Port Colborne
   4208 City of Woodstock
   3971 City of Thorold
   3692 City of St. Thomas
   3603 City of Cambridge
   3529 City of Orillia
   3355 City of Brockville
   3098 City of Owen Sound
   2733 City of Clarence-Rockland
   2377 City Of Pembroke
   1549 City Of Dryden
    871 City of Kenora
    766 City Of Elliot Lake
    544 City of Elliot Lake
    302 City of Waterloo
    241 City of North Bay
 78 City of Kitchener
 47 City of Markham
 18 City of Timmins
  3 City of Vaughan (Maple)
  2 City of Sault Ste. Marie



On 2018-02-12 09:13 PM, Kevin Farrugia wrote:
Bernie is correct.  "City of", 

Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-17 Thread Jarek Piórkowski
On 17 February 2018 at 00:03, OSM Volunteer stevea
 wrote:
> On Feb 16, 2018, at 2:56 PM, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
>> With "street" in a street name, it's clear to most everyone that Pine St is 
>> an abbreviation and Pine Street is the correct unabbreviated Canadian 
>> English version. It is not clear to me that "Saint Catharines" is the 
>> correct unabbreviated version of the city's name. In fact it looks incorrect 
>> to me.
>
> Thank you, Jarek.  However, I politely disagree that your logic of "it's 
> clear to most everyone that Pine St is an abbreviation..." holds up for 
> software logic (even as it might "to most everyone.")  This is 
> well-established and the reasoning behind OSM's policy I noted previously.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for drawing the distinction.

I think that automatic software manipulation of names (whether in OSM
or elsewhere) is necessarily fraught with problems. It must be done
carefully and would be best done on a limited set of fields. There are
too many exceptions and unusual values to handle fully automatically.
The series of articles "things programmers believe about names",
"things programmers believe about addresses" come to mind.

It makes some sense in Canadian English street names, which are 1)
largely standardized and 2) by convention agglutinative - they have
prefixes and suffixes and so on. Thus it might be desirable to replace
"Pine Street" with "Pine St" or "Saint Clair Avenue West" with "St.
Clair Ave W" for rendering or presentation in short fields.

Even there, great care must be taken, or - to use a common example of
a "weird" street name - "Avenue Road" might be incorrectly reduced to
"Ave Rd". In St. Catharines there is a "South Service Road" which can
be abbreviated to "S Service Rd", but also a "South Drive" which might
make sense as "South Dr" but not as "S Drive". In Niagara-on-the-Lake
there is a "East & West Line", which I invite any algorithm to make
sense of.

(I specify "Canadian English" as I'm not familiar with Canadian French
names or with English conventions elsewhere - and that's before
getting into areas with bilingual names.)

As in the example given by others, the spelling is important to the
cities of Saint John and St. John's. IMHO this should not be
automatically modified by software. Thus we shouldn't change names
that are correct for the sake of software.

--Jarek

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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread Bernie Connors
  ‎Matthew,      "Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha!"‎ is a good one. I have driven through "Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha!" on my way from NB to Montreal. Growing up in NS I have always been intrigued by long French names in NB like St-Francois-de-Madawaska. I have lived, studied and worked in geomatics on NB since 1989. I find this discussion of St, Ste, Saint, and Sainte ‎to be a little esoteric. The engineer in me wants to lean toward standardization but the human in me recognizes that everyone can interpret a place name whether it is presented with a St / Saint or Ste / Sainte. However, St. John's, NL and Saint John, NB are a special case. One is always abbreviated and the other is not. Don't feel bad if you mix them up. Prince Charles confused the two while making a speech in Saint John, NB. I still remember the news clip on TV and the gasp from the NB audience when the prince said "St. John's" when he was referring Saint John, NB, while speaking in Saint John, NB! Despite the gasp Prince Charles survived and so will all of us OSM mappers despite our abbreviations. ;-)Bernie.Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Bell network.From: Matthew DarwinSent: Friday, February 16, 2018 8:14 PMTo: talk-ca@openstreetmap.orgSubject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
  

  
  
In my OSM map updates
to remove of "City of" and similar prefixes from locality names,
I will not be expanding any "St", "Ste" or any other
abbreviations of those names.  If the name (minus the prefix to
be removed) matches what is in NRCan database, I will remove the
prefix; if it doesn't, I will bring it back up here for review.
  
I occasionally get "Saint
John, NB" and "St. John's, NL" confused, so personally I do not
want the city name in Newfoundland expanded to add to my
confusion.   :-)
What's your favourite
locality name in Canada?  I have to go with "Saint-Louis-du-Ha!
Ha!"


On 2018-02-16 05:56 PM, Jarek
  Piórkowski wrote:


  With "street" in a street name, it's clear to most
everyone that Pine St is an abbreviation and Pine Street is the
correct unabbreviated Canadian English version. It is not clear
to me that "Saint Catharines" is the correct unabbreviated
version of the city's name. In fact it looks incorrect to me.
  


  



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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread OSM Volunteer stevea
On Feb 16, 2018, at 7:50 PM, Bill & Kathy Patterson 
 wrote:
> It would seem to me that an official place name should take precedence over 
> OSM protocols.  If we expand the abbreviations (or contractions), of St. and 
> Ste., then are we not altering the official place name of the feature?
> 
> The federal government downloaded that responsibility to the provinces, and 
> in Ontario the official place names appear at
> http://www.gisapplication.lrc.gov.on.ca/Geonames/Index.html?site=Geographic_Names=Geonames=en-US

Bill, as I look at "Sault Ste. Marie" in Ontario in that database and compare 
it to the "Sault Ste Marie" across the water in Michigan (land of my birth, but 
not in the realm of this database's naming) I note something interesting:  the 
Canadian version has a period, denoting an abbreviation (we do use English, 
though the rule that a period is found at the end of an abbreviation in French 
is the same),  The Michigan one does not end in a period.  Were I to edit here, 
I would "follow what our OSM wiki says to put in OSM" expanding that 
abbreviation ("Ste." to "Sainte" in the Ontario version).  Some (many? most?)  
"Sainte-Quelque Chose" names have hyphens, too.  So, hm.

That would be my approach, as it is OSM's approach.  This is OSM, yet it is 
Canada, too, of course.  It's not always easy or clear, is it?

SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread Bill & Kathy Patterson
It would seem to me that an official place name should take precedence over OSM 
protocols.  If we expand the abbreviations (or contractions), of St. and Ste., 
then are we not altering the official place name of the feature?
The federal government downloaded that responsibility to the provinces, and in 
Ontario the official place names appear 
athttp://www.gisapplication.lrc.gov.on.ca/Geonames/Index.html?site=Geographic_Names=Geonames=en-US

Bill Patterson
  From: Kevin Farrugia <kevinfarru...@gmail.com>
 To: James <james2...@gmail.com> 
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <talk-ca@openstreetmap.org>
 Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 3:58 PM
 Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
   
Sorry, accidentally pressed reply instead of reply all:
Those are the official names, for example:http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/ 
search-place-names/unique/ FDJFNhttp://www4.rncan.gc.ca/ 
search-place-names/unique/ FDTCR
---
Kevin Farrugia
On Feb 16, 2018 3:50 PM, "James" <james2...@gmail.com> wrote:

http://saultstemarie.ca/
thats how its written. even on signs to there
On Feb 16, 2018 3:47 PM, "OSM Volunteer stevea" <stevea...@softworkers.com> 
wrote:

On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Matthew Darwin <matt...@mdarwin.ca> wrote:
> St. Catharines, St. Thomas, Sault Ste. Marie

I dislike sounding nit-picky, this really is meant as constructive criticism, 
but let's expand these names so there are no abbreviations.  Our wiki 
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Name s says "If the name can be spelled without an 
abbreviation, then don't abbreviate it."

Thanks,
SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread James
My favourite is Moose Factory. I think Canadian typonomy was the consesus
last time we had the same subject come up

On Feb 16, 2018 7:14 PM, "Matthew Darwin"  wrote:

> In my OSM map updates to remove of "City of" and similar prefixes from
> locality names, I will not be expanding any "St", "Ste" or any other
> abbreviations of those names.  If the name (minus the prefix to be removed)
> matches what is in NRCan database, I will remove the prefix; if it doesn't,
> I will bring it back up here for review.
>
> I occasionally get "Saint John, NB" and "St. John's, NL" confused, so
> personally I do not want the city name in Newfoundland expanded to add to
> my confusion.   :-)
>
> What's your favourite locality name in Canada?  I have to go with
> "Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha!"
>
>  On 2018-02-16 05:56 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
>
> With "street" in a street name, it's clear to most everyone that Pine St
> is an abbreviation and Pine Street is the correct unabbreviated Canadian
> English version. It is not clear to me that "Saint Catharines" is the
> correct unabbreviated version of the city's name. In fact it looks
> incorrect to me.
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread Matthew Darwin
In my OSM map updates to remove of "City of" and similar prefixes from 
locality names, I will not be expanding any "St", "Ste" or any other 
abbreviations of those names.  If the name (minus the prefix to be 
removed) matches what is in NRCan database, I will remove the prefix; 
if it doesn't, I will bring it back up here for review.


I occasionally get "Saint John, NB" and "St. John's, NL" confused, so 
personally I do not want the city name in Newfoundland expanded to add 
to my confusion.   :-)


What's your favourite locality name in Canada?  I have to go with 
"Saint-Louis-du-Ha! Ha!"


On 2018-02-16 05:56 PM, Jarek Piórkowski wrote:
With "street" in a street name, it's clear to most everyone that 
Pine St is an abbreviation and Pine Street is the correct 
unabbreviated Canadian English version. It is not clear to me that 
"Saint Catharines" is the correct unabbreviated version of the 
city's name. In fact it looks incorrect to me.


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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread Jarek Piórkowski
With "street" in a street name, it's clear to most everyone that Pine St is
an abbreviation and Pine Street is the correct unabbreviated Canadian
English version. It is not clear to me that "Saint Catharines" is the
correct unabbreviated version of the city's name. In fact it looks
incorrect to me.

--Jarek

On Feb 16, 2018 23:37, "Tristan Anderson" <andersontris...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm going to make here to the unpopular argument that in OSM tagging "St."
> should always be written as "Saint".
>
> I know that you will never see "Sault Sainte Marie" on a sign, map or
> official document and that seeing it written like that looks weird and even
> wrong to local residents.  In much the same way when I started editing OSM,
> "Pine Street" looked weird, even wrong, to me.  After all, street suffixes
> are abbreviated on every sign and map; even when they are referenced in
> articles.  I have since come to accept and embrace the unabbreviated street
> suffix, even to the point writing them out in full in my day-to-day life,
> such as when I enter in my home address.  I think we can all agree that
> there is nothing incorrect about Maple Boulevard, and by extension that an
> abbreviation's ubiquity does not in and of itself make the full version
> incorrect.
>
> There are a lot of streets that begin with Saint.  In one neighbourhood of
> Niagara Falls, for example, there is (using the names recognised by Canada
> Post) a Saint Marys Avenue, St. John St, St Paul Avenue, St Patrick Avenue,
> St. Peter Avenue, and Saint George Avenue.  I doubt that whoever named
> those streets intended for that specific combination of St/St./Saint and I
> can be certain that the abbreviations were merely ever there out of
> convenience, one that's made obsolete by digital maps not needing to cram a
> bunch of street names onto limited space.  I find it hard to see anybody
> having a problem with beginning all six of these names with "Saint".
>
> The "St" abbreviation may particularly problematic for data consumers as
> it could mean Street, Saint, or if you check out the Wikipedia
> disambiguation page, dozens of other things.  Sure it's obvious to a human
> that there is no city called Street Thomas, but a computer might have a bit
> of trouble there.  And don't get me started on the absurdity that St is a
> contraction, not an abbreviation.
>
> I'm not going to rush out and change any existing tagging but I think this
> is one instance where rational thought needs to override tradition.
>
> From: OSM Volunteer stevea <stevea...@softworkers.com>
> Sent: February 16, 2018 4:03 PM
> To: Jarek Piórkowski; talk-ca
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
>
>
> I stand corrected, thank you everybody.
>
> BTW I do my best not to abbreviate thinks like "DC" for District of
> Columbia, but I now better understand that "St." in many cases has now
> truly become the official name, abbreviation included.
>
> SteveA
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread James
the only expanded version of the city name was in french, and on wikipedia:
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sault-Sainte-Marie_(Ontario)

Maybe because people(English) have trouble spelling "Sainte"?

On Feb 16, 2018 5:38 PM, "Tristan Anderson" <andersontris...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm going to make here to the unpopular argument that in OSM tagging "St."
> should always be written as "Saint".
>
> I know that you will never see "Sault Sainte Marie" on a sign, map or
> official document and that seeing it written like that looks weird and even
> wrong to local residents.  In much the same way when I started editing OSM,
> "Pine Street" looked weird, even wrong, to me.  After all, street suffixes
> are abbreviated on every sign and map; even when they are referenced in
> articles.  I have since come to accept and embrace the unabbreviated street
> suffix, even to the point writing them out in full in my day-to-day life,
> such as when I enter in my home address.  I think we can all agree that
> there is nothing incorrect about Maple Boulevard, and by extension that an
> abbreviation's ubiquity does not in and of itself make the full version
> incorrect.
>
> There are a lot of streets that begin with Saint.  In one neighbourhood of
> Niagara Falls, for example, there is (using the names recognised by Canada
> Post) a Saint Marys Avenue, St. John St, St Paul Avenue, St Patrick Avenue,
> St. Peter Avenue, and Saint George Avenue.  I doubt that whoever named
> those streets intended for that specific combination of St/St./Saint and I
> can be certain that the abbreviations were merely ever there out of
> convenience, one that's made obsolete by digital maps not needing to cram a
> bunch of street names onto limited space.  I find it hard to see anybody
> having a problem with beginning all six of these names with "Saint".
>
> The "St" abbreviation may particularly problematic for data consumers as
> it could mean Street, Saint, or if you check out the Wikipedia
> disambiguation page, dozens of other things.  Sure it's obvious to a human
> that there is no city called Street Thomas, but a computer might have a bit
> of trouble there.  And don't get me started on the absurdity that St is a
> contraction, not an abbreviation.
>
> I'm not going to rush out and change any existing tagging but I think this
> is one instance where rational thought needs to override tradition.
>
> From: OSM Volunteer stevea <stevea...@softworkers.com>
> Sent: February 16, 2018 4:03 PM
> To: Jarek Piórkowski; talk-ca
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
>
>
> I stand corrected, thank you everybody.
>
> BTW I do my best not to abbreviate thinks like "DC" for District of
> Columbia, but I now better understand that "St." in many cases has now
> truly become the official name, abbreviation included.
>
> SteveA
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread OSM Volunteer stevea
We call it TALK-ca for a reason!  We call it OPENStreetMap for a reason!  
Consensus doesn't always come easy!  Thanks to everyone for good discussion.

SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread Tristan Anderson
I'm going to make here to the unpopular argument that in OSM tagging "St." 
should always be written as "Saint".

I know that you will never see "Sault Sainte Marie" on a sign, map or official 
document and that seeing it written like that looks weird and even wrong to 
local residents.  In much the same way when I started editing OSM, "Pine 
Street" looked weird, even wrong, to me.  After all, street suffixes are 
abbreviated on every sign and map; even when they are referenced in articles.  
I have since come to accept and embrace the unabbreviated street suffix, even 
to the point writing them out in full in my day-to-day life, such as when I 
enter in my home address.  I think we can all agree that there is nothing 
incorrect about Maple Boulevard, and by extension that an abbreviation's 
ubiquity does not in and of itself make the full version incorrect.

There are a lot of streets that begin with Saint.  In one neighbourhood of 
Niagara Falls, for example, there is (using the names recognised by Canada 
Post) a Saint Marys Avenue, St. John St, St Paul Avenue, St Patrick Avenue, St. 
Peter Avenue, and Saint George Avenue.  I doubt that whoever named those 
streets intended for that specific combination of St/St./Saint and I can be 
certain that the abbreviations were merely ever there out of convenience, one 
that's made obsolete by digital maps not needing to cram a bunch of street 
names onto limited space.  I find it hard to see anybody having a problem with 
beginning all six of these names with "Saint".

The "St" abbreviation may particularly problematic for data consumers as it 
could mean Street, Saint, or if you check out the Wikipedia disambiguation 
page, dozens of other things.  Sure it's obvious to a human that there is no 
city called Street Thomas, but a computer might have a bit of trouble there.  
And don't get me started on the absurdity that St is a contraction, not an 
abbreviation.

I'm not going to rush out and change any existing tagging but I think this is 
one instance where rational thought needs to override tradition.

From: OSM Volunteer stevea <stevea...@softworkers.com>
Sent: February 16, 2018 4:03 PM
To: Jarek Piórkowski; talk-ca
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names
  

I stand corrected, thank you everybody.

BTW I do my best not to abbreviate thinks like "DC" for District of Columbia, 
but I now better understand that "St." in many cases has now truly become the 
official name, abbreviation included.

SteveA

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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread OSM Volunteer stevea
I stand corrected, thank you everybody.

BTW I do my best not to abbreviate thinks like "DC" for District of Columbia, 
but I now better understand that "St." in many cases has now truly become the 
official name, abbreviation included.

SteveA

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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread Jarek Piórkowski
Chiming in as a years-long resident-neighbour of St. Catharines, I
have to concur - it is always abbreviated - city's official
https://www.stcatharines.ca/en/ , regional government e.g.
https://www.niagararegion.ca/transit/routes.aspx

St. James's Park and St. John's Wood in London in England are "St."s
too, not expanded.

--Jarek

On 16 February 2018 at 21:56, OSM Volunteer stevea
 wrote:
> We (the USA) has many sources which "say" St. Louis (Missouri) but OSM has 
> name=Saint Louis.  The latter is correct in an OSM context.  Following our 
> wiki, CAN the name be spelled without an abbreviation?"  If yes, then please 
> do so.
>
> Thanks,
> SteveA
>
>> On Feb 16, 2018, at 12:50 PM, James  wrote:
>>
>> http://saultstemarie.ca/
>>
>> thats how its written. even on signs to there
>>
>> On Feb 16, 2018 3:47 PM, "OSM Volunteer stevea"  
>> wrote:
>> On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
>> > St. Catharines, St. Thomas, Sault Ste. Marie
>>
>> I dislike sounding nit-picky, this really is meant as constructive 
>> criticism, but let's expand these names so there are no abbreviations.  Our 
>> wiki https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Names says "If the name can be spelled 
>> without an abbreviation, then don't abbreviate it."
>>
>> Thanks,
>> SteveA
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-- 
Jarek Piórkowski
I have a PGP key: 0xD8B00764962E826B

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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread Kevin Farrugia
Sorry, accidentally pressed reply instead of reply all:

Those are the official names, for example:
http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/unique/FDJFN
http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/unique/FDTCR

---
Kevin Farrugia

On Feb 16, 2018 3:50 PM, "James"  wrote:

> http://saultstemarie.ca/
>
> thats how its written. even on signs to there
>
> On Feb 16, 2018 3:47 PM, "OSM Volunteer stevea" 
> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
>> > St. Catharines, St. Thomas, Sault Ste. Marie
>>
>> I dislike sounding nit-picky, this really is meant as constructive
>> criticism, but let's expand these names so there are no abbreviations.  Our
>> wiki https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Names says "If the name can be spelled
>> without an abbreviation, then don't abbreviate it."
>>
>> Thanks,
>> SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread OSM Volunteer stevea
We (the USA) has many sources which "say" St. Louis (Missouri) but OSM has 
name=Saint Louis.  The latter is correct in an OSM context.  Following our 
wiki, CAN the name be spelled without an abbreviation?"  If yes, then please do 
so.

Thanks,
SteveA

> On Feb 16, 2018, at 12:50 PM, James  wrote:
> 
> http://saultstemarie.ca/
> 
> thats how its written. even on signs to there
> 
> On Feb 16, 2018 3:47 PM, "OSM Volunteer stevea"  
> wrote:
> On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
> > St. Catharines, St. Thomas, Sault Ste. Marie
> 
> I dislike sounding nit-picky, this really is meant as constructive criticism, 
> but let's expand these names so there are no abbreviations.  Our wiki 
> https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Names says "If the name can be spelled without an 
> abbreviation, then don't abbreviate it."
> 
> Thanks,
> SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread Harald Kliems
See also:
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/19609/saint-or-st-is-there-an-official-osm-policy

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:50 PM James  wrote:

> http://saultstemarie.ca/
>
> thats how its written. even on signs to there
>
> On Feb 16, 2018 3:47 PM, "OSM Volunteer stevea" 
> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
>> > St. Catharines, St. Thomas, Sault Ste. Marie
>>
>> I dislike sounding nit-picky, this really is meant as constructive
>> criticism, but let's expand these names so there are no abbreviations.  Our
>> wiki https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Names says "If the name can be spelled
>> without an abbreviation, then don't abbreviate it."
>>
>> Thanks,
>> SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread James
http://saultstemarie.ca/

thats how its written. even on signs to there

On Feb 16, 2018 3:47 PM, "OSM Volunteer stevea" 
wrote:

> On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
> > St. Catharines, St. Thomas, Sault Ste. Marie
>
> I dislike sounding nit-picky, this really is meant as constructive
> criticism, but let's expand these names so there are no abbreviations.  Our
> wiki https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Names says "If the name can be spelled
> without an abbreviation, then don't abbreviate it."
>
> Thanks,
> SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread OSM Volunteer stevea
On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:41 AM, Matthew Darwin  wrote:
> St. Catharines, St. Thomas, Sault Ste. Marie

I dislike sounding nit-picky, this really is meant as constructive criticism, 
but let's expand these names so there are no abbreviations.  Our wiki 
https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Names says "If the name can be spelled without an 
abbreviation, then don't abbreviate it."

Thanks,
SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-16 Thread Matthew Darwin
To start the cleanup process, the following *Ontario* cities are being 
changed (remove "City of" or "City Of").   Once that is done, I'll 
come back with the next batch to process...


The idea to remove the city name in its entirety will require careful 
consideration to ensure the necessary boundary relations are in place 
and of course more discussion to see if people are comfortable to 
proceed on that kind of activity.


 110707 City of Toronto
  45716 City of Hamilton
  27234 City of London
  25393 City of Brampton
  17251 City of Vaughan
  16929 City of St. Catharines
  16592 City of Kawartha Lakes
  16087 City of Thunder Bay
  14787 City of Niagara Falls
  13966 City of Kingston
  12085 City of Oshawa
  11321 City of Barrie
  10981 City of Burlington
  10347 City of Guelph
   9666 City of Brantford
   9384 City of Sarnia
   9102 City of Windsor
   9044 City Of Sault Ste. Marie
   8263 City of Peterborough
   7819 City of Quinte West
   7593 City of Welland
   6753 City of Pickering
   6608 City of Greater Sudbury
   6375 City Of Greater Sudbury
   6239 City of Belleville
   6165 City of Prince Edward County
   5696 City of Cornwall
   5269 City Of Timmins
   4877 City of Port Colborne
   4208 City of Woodstock
   3971 City of Thorold
   3692 City of St. Thomas
   3603 City of Cambridge
   3529 City of Orillia
   3355 City of Brockville
   3098 City of Owen Sound
   2733 City of Clarence-Rockland
   2377 City Of Pembroke
   1549 City Of Dryden
    871 City of Kenora
    766 City Of Elliot Lake
    544 City of Elliot Lake
    302 City of Waterloo
    241 City of North Bay
 78 City of Kitchener
 47 City of Markham
 18 City of Timmins
  3 City of Vaughan (Maple)
  2 City of Sault Ste. Marie



On 2018-02-12 09:13 PM, Kevin Farrugia wrote:
Bernie is correct.  "City of", "Municipality of", "x County" is a 
legal name that would be referring to the legal entity itself (the 
Government) rather than the place.  The place should just be 
Toronto, Hamilton, Mississauga etc..


The data source these legal names comes from has the legal name as 
it's usually establishing the jurisdiction that contains the road.  
The address ranges are derived from the road system, so it's just 
been copied over.


-Kevin Farrugia
kevinfarru...@gmail.com 

On 12 February 2018 at 21:02, Bernie Connors > wrote:


I see the use of "City of" as indicating the official name of a
municipality as it is defined in legislation. Here in New
Brunswick the Municipalities Act‎ defines the official names of
municipalities. Some opt to use "City of ", "Town of ", etc in
the Municipalities Act and some don't. But when it comes to
names on maps we should be more concerned with toponyms and not
official names. The use of "City of ", "Town of ", etc is very
rare in toponyms. Here is a query on the Canadian Geographic
Names Database searching for the term "of" in the "populated
places" category -

http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/search?q=of%5B%5D=985=O



I only see two examples that include "City of ", "Town of ", etc
across the entire country:
City of Brant, ON
Village of Queen Charlotte, BC

Bernie.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:45 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea
>
wrote:

I smell a harmonization with admin_level...not that there's
anything wrong with that.
SteveA

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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-12 Thread OSM Volunteer stevea
On Feb 12, 2018, at 6:02 PM, Bernie Connors  wrote:
> I see the use of "City of" as indicating the official name of a municipality 
> as it is defined in legislation. Here in New Brunswick the Municipalities 
> Act‎ defines the official names of municipalities. Some opt to use "City of 
> ", "Town of ", etc in the Municipalities Act and some don't. But when it 
> comes to names on maps we should be more concerned with toponyms and not 
> official names. The use of "City of ", "Town of ", etc is very rare in 
> toponyms.  Here is a query on the Canadian Geographic Names Database 
> searching for the term "of" in the "populated places" category - 
> http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/search?q=of%5B%5D=985=O
> 
> I only see two examples that include "City of ", "Town of ", etc across the 
> entire country:
> City of Brant, ON
> Village of Queen Charlotte, BC

Excellent, Bernie:  I love the word toponym, it is a good one for a talk forum 
about OSM.  Thank you for those elucidations.  I am from outside Canada, though 
the CGND seems an authoritative source here and we do have others chiming in as 
I type.

+1, I agree that toponym is an excellent starting point for the value of the 
name=* key.  City of Brant and Village of Queen Charlotte might have those in 
official_name but check taginfo and dig into this further with more discussion. 
 Discussion is good.

What I meant by "I smell admin_level harmonization" is that as this discussion 
continues about deleting "Township of" and "Village of" data (and similar) that 
better admin_level tagging might result.  A sort of (trade off?) of "well, 
let's capture the data we consider deleting by adding them into OSM using OSM 
methods."

This isn't required, more like a "recycle the scraps on the cutting room floor 
into nice, correct data."  I do that where I can, certainly not always!  Great 
discussion.

SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-12 Thread Kevin Farrugia
Bernie is correct.  "City of", "Municipality of", "x County" is a legal
name that would be referring to the legal entity itself (the Government)
rather than the place.  The place should just be Toronto, Hamilton,
Mississauga etc..

The data source these legal names comes from has the legal name as it's
usually establishing the jurisdiction that contains the road.  The address
ranges are derived from the road system, so it's just been copied over.

-Kevin Farrugia
kevinfarru...@gmail.com

On 12 February 2018 at 21:02, Bernie Connors  wrote:

> I see the use of "City of" as indicating the official name of a
> municipality as it is defined in legislation. Here in New Brunswick the
> Municipalities Act‎ defines the official names of municipalities. Some opt
> to use "City of ", "Town of ", etc in the Municipalities Act and some
> don't. But when it comes to names on maps we should be more concerned with
> toponyms and not official names. The use of "City of ", "Town of ", etc is
> very rare in toponyms.  Here is a query on the Canadian Geographic Names
> Database searching for the term "of" in the "populated places" category -
> http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/search?q=
> of%5B%5D=985=O
>
> I only see two examples that include "City of ", "Town of ", etc across
> the entire country:
> City of Brant, ON
> Village of Queen Charlotte, BC
>
> Bernie.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:45 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea <
> stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:
>
>> I smell a harmonization with admin_level...not that there's anything
>> wrong with that.
>> SteveA
>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-12 Thread john whelan
I would concur.  Essentially you want to search for the name of the city or
town so Ottawa rather than "City of Ottawa".

Cheerio John

On 12 February 2018 at 21:02, Bernie Connors  wrote:

> I see the use of "City of" as indicating the official name of a
> municipality as it is defined in legislation. Here in New Brunswick the
> Municipalities Act‎ defines the official names of municipalities. Some opt
> to use "City of ", "Town of ", etc in the Municipalities Act and some
> don't. But when it comes to names on maps we should be more concerned with
> toponyms and not official names. The use of "City of ", "Town of ", etc is
> very rare in toponyms.  Here is a query on the Canadian Geographic Names
> Database searching for the term "of" in the "populated places" category -
> http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/search?q=
> of%5B%5D=985=O
>
> I only see two examples that include "City of ", "Town of ", etc across
> the entire country:
> City of Brant, ON
> Village of Queen Charlotte, BC
>
> Bernie.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:45 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea <
> stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:
>
>> I smell a harmonization with admin_level...not that there's anything
>> wrong with that.
>> SteveA
>>
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>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-12 Thread James
Checked for Toronto and Ottawa they do not have "City of" :
http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/search?q=Toronto[]=985=O
I agree with what Bernie said, unless it's the official name. It seems it's
a classification.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:02 PM, Bernie Connors 
wrote:

> I see the use of "City of" as indicating the official name of a
> municipality as it is defined in legislation. Here in New Brunswick the
> Municipalities Act‎ defines the official names of municipalities. Some opt
> to use "City of ", "Town of ", etc in the Municipalities Act and some
> don't. But when it comes to names on maps we should be more concerned with
> toponyms and not official names. The use of "City of ", "Town of ", etc is
> very rare in toponyms.  Here is a query on the Canadian Geographic Names
> Database searching for the term "of" in the "populated places" category -
> http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/search?q=
> of%5B%5D=985=O
>
> I only see two examples that include "City of ", "Town of ", etc across
> the entire country:
> City of Brant, ON
> Village of Queen Charlotte, BC
>
> Bernie.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:45 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea <
> stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:
>
>> I smell a harmonization with admin_level...not that there's anything
>> wrong with that.
>> SteveA
>>
>> ___
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>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-12 Thread Bernie Connors
 I see the use of "City of" as indicating the official name of a
municipality as it is defined in legislation. Here in New Brunswick the
Municipalities Act‎ defines the official names of municipalities. Some opt
to use "City of ", "Town of ", etc in the Municipalities Act and some
don't. But when it comes to names on maps we should be more concerned with
toponyms and not official names. The use of "City of ", "Town of ", etc is
very rare in toponyms.  Here is a query on the Canadian Geographic Names
Database searching for the term "of" in the "populated places" category -
http://www4.rncan.gc.ca/search-place-names/search?q=of%5B%5D=985=O

I only see two examples that include "City of ", "Town of ", etc across the
entire country:
City of Brant, ON
Village of Queen Charlotte, BC

Bernie.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:45 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea <
stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:

> I smell a harmonization with admin_level...not that there's anything wrong
> with that.
> SteveA
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-12 Thread OSM Volunteer stevea
I smell a harmonization with admin_level...not that there's anything wrong with 
that.
SteveA

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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-12 Thread Matthew Darwin

Hi Steve,

From the top list, I think this is not really a case of different 
names people use vs official name. Seems like a simpler issue than 
what you are talking about. which hopefully then is a simpler to 
solve.  (Not that that issue you are discussing doesn't occur as well, 
I'm sure).


Here are the top 100 that are including " of " in the name:

110707 City of Toronto  45716 City of Hamilton  27234 City of London  
25393 City of Brampton  22881 Municipality of Chatham-Kent  17251 City 
of Vaughan  16929 City of St. Catharines  16796 Town of Markham  16592 
City of Kawartha Lakes  16086 City of Thunder Bay  14787 City of 
Niagara Falls  13966 City of Kingston  12085 City of Oshawa  11321 
City of Barrie  11080 Town of Fort Erie  10981 City of Burlington  
10641 Town of Whitby  10347 City of Guelph   9906 Municipality of 
Clarington   9666 City of Brantford   9384 City of Sarnia   9102 City 
of Windsor   8263 City of Peterborough   7819 City of Quinte West   
7593 City of Welland   7441 Town of Ajax   7389 Town of Milton   7025 
Town of Lincoln   6909 County of Brant   6753 City of Pickering   6689 
Town of Caledon   6608 City of Greater Sudbury   6466 Township of West 
Lincoln   6460 Town of Niagara-On-The-Lake   6239 City of Belleville   
6165 City of Prince Edward County   5995 Town of Georgina   5947 Town 
of Innisfil   5886 Town of Newmarket   5827 Town of Halton Hills   
5696 City of Cornwall   5381 Town of Lakeshore   5261 Township of 
Galway-Cavendish and Harvey   5063 Township of Rideau Lakes   5036 
Town of Pelham   4914 Town of South Bruce Peninsula   4877 City of 
Port Colborne   4796 Town of Wasaga Beach   4792 Township of 
Oro-Medonte   4680 Town of Grimsby   4533 Township of 
Smith-Ennismore-Lakefield   4474 Town of Essex   4405 Town of 
Whitchurch-Stouffville   4346 Township of South Glengarry   4244 Town 
of Aurora   4222 Township of Severn   4208 City of Woodstock   4151 
Township of Minden Hills   4127 Town of Saugeen Shores   3971 City of 
Thorold   3962 Municipality of West Grey   3929 Municipality of Grey 
Highlands   3883 Township of St. Clair   3839 Township of Wainfleet   
3828 Township of Centre Wellington   3815 Municipality of Kincardine   
3803 Town of New Tecumseth   3778 Township of Scugog   3776 Township 
of Tiny   3725 Township of Springwater   3720 Town of Collingwood   
3692 City of St. Thomas   3690 Municipality of Trent Hills   3648 
Township of Strathroy-Caradoc   3603 City of Cambridge   3574 Town of 
Kingsville   3549 Municipality of Leamington   3543 Municipality of 
Middlesex Centre   3539 Township of South Dundas   3529 City of 
Orillia   3495 Township of North Glengarry   3388 Township of Tay 
Valley   3355 City of Brockville   3293 Municipality of Port Hope   
3284 Municipality of North Grenville   3268 Township of Leeds and the 
Thousand Islands   3202 Township of North Dundas   3192 Municipality 
of Brockton   3188 Town of Amherstburg   3149 Township of South 
Frontenac   3098 City of Owen Sound   3097 Town of Tecumseh   3056 
Township of Seguin   3053 Town of the Blue Mountains   3050 Town of 
Greater Napanee   3044 Township of King   3006 Township of Clearview   
2975 Township of South Stormont   2927 Town of Gravenhurst   2847 
Township of Ramara



On 2018-02-12 06:15 PM, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

There are places and circumstances where preceding a city's name with "City of" is 
"a very correct answer."  So, sort that out, if we would, please.

We (California) have a city which nearly everybody in all circumstances calls Ventura which is "officially" 
San Buenaventura.  Stuff like this happens.  Then, there might be a "linguistic register" (like in a legal 
pleading) where "The City of San Buenaventura" is "just what the doctor ordered" acceptably correct.

It appears that "City of Toronto" being roughly 91% of a six-figure-strong consensus is a 
clear winner.  However, Kevin Farrugia says something different.  We listen, we consider, we allow 
consensus to emerge and the bold pull triggers.  By that I mean "clean up what we now agree 
needs correcting."

OSM is so delightfully human and organic.  I'm so glad we so widely speak 
amongst ourselves.



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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-12 Thread Matthew Darwin
Kevin thanks for the history lesson.  As I mentioned on other threads, 
I'm relatively new here, so I am missing the context, so I appreciate 
you filling it in.


Looking at the 100 used "Town/City/Municipality of " names, they seem 
to be entirely in Ontario.  So perhaps this is mostly an Ontario 
discussion to start.


Here is the full list of city:suburb values as context to the 
discussion.  It appears mainly used in the Montreal area:


 89 Le Plateau-Mont-Royal 38 Côte-des-Neiges–NDG 37 
Rosemont-Petite-Patrie 36 Mercier-Hochelaga-Maisonneuve 34 
Saint-Laurent 25 Bramalea 24 Dollard-des-Ormeaux 22 
Outremont 21 Villeray-Saint-Michel-PE 20 
Ahuntsic-Cartierville 17 Saint-Leonard 16 Pointe-Claire 12 
Westmount 12 Dorval 11 Mont-Royal 11 
LÎle-Bizard-Sainte-Geneviève  8 Côte Saint-Luc  7 
RDP-Pointe-Aux-Trembles  6 Verdun  6 
Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue  6 Pointe Claire  6 Le Sud Ouest  
6 LaSalle  4 Lachine  4 Erindale  4 Bolton  3 
Montréal-Nord  3 Montreal-Est  3 Anjou  2 Wesmount  2 
Kirkland  2 Hampstead  1 Unionville  1 Scarborough  1 
Pierrefonds-Roxboro  1 North York  1 Le-Sud-Ouest  1 
Gastown  1 Etobicoke  1 Downtown Dartmouth  1 Delta  1 
Beauport  1 Beaconsfield  1 Alton



On 2018-02-12 06:02 PM, Kevin Farrugia wrote:

Hi Matthew,

Not having the "City of" or "Town of" would be preferred - the 
reason those are there is that the CanVec data that was imported 
uses administrative names in the data.


When people search or say an address out loud they would use "123 
Yonge St, Toronto" not "123 Yonge St, City of Toronto".  It's 
something that I think was overlooked when the data was imported and 
has annoyed the hell out of me when I see it...


As for examples like "North York, Toronto" - some people still use 
the pre-amalgamation borough names for the suburbs that were annexed 
into the City of Toronto.  Sometimes it's for a very good purpose - 
there are multiple King, Queen, Main, etc. streets in the current 
city.  In the cases you found, since there are so few, i would 
suggest the former city names be moved to the city:suburb tag and 
Toronto stays in the addr:city tag?




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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-12 Thread OSM Volunteer stevea
> i believe "city of" is redundant as its a classification vs a name.
> Would we say "village of maniwaki"? nope. 

What "we say" and what "OSM tags" can vary slightly.  Although with names, 
"what we say" is a great place to start and very largely correct.  This is a 
topic which can explode quickly, smearing into many linguistic zones.  We 
define an official_name value at https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Key:name and 
short_name and loc_name can get in on the act in some cases.

There are places and circumstances where preceding a city's name with "City of" 
is "a very correct answer."  So, sort that out, if we would, please.

We (California) have a city which nearly everybody in all circumstances calls 
Ventura which is "officially" San Buenaventura.  Stuff like this happens.  
Then, there might be a "linguistic register" (like in a legal pleading) where 
"The City of San Buenaventura" is "just what the doctor ordered" acceptably 
correct.

It appears that "City of Toronto" being roughly 91% of a six-figure-strong 
consensus is a clear winner.  However, Kevin Farrugia says something different. 
 We listen, we consider, we allow consensus to emerge and the bold pull 
triggers.  By that I mean "clean up what we now agree needs correcting."

OSM is so delightfully human and organic.  I'm so glad we so widely speak 
amongst ourselves.

SteveA
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-12 Thread Matthew Darwin


On 2018-02-12 06:05 PM, Stewart Russell wrote:
On Feb 12, 2018 17:51, "Matthew Darwin" > wrote:


Hi,

I am now reviewing the *addr**:city* tag. Seems we are not very
consistent how we use it. For example, Toronto:

 110707 City of Toronto    9603 Toronto


With my minimalist mapping hat on (it's invisible), if a 
municipality has a boundary defined, we absolutely don't need 
addr:city (or province or country) in address points.




This is the same logic of why the addr:city=Ottawa tags are few and 
far between.


I'm happy to have the discussion about removing redundant tags.
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-12 Thread Kevin Farrugia
Hi Matthew,

Not having the "City of" or "Town of" would be preferred - the reason those
are there is that the CanVec data that was imported uses administrative
names in the data.

When people search or say an address out loud they would use "123 Yonge St,
Toronto" not "123 Yonge St, City of Toronto".  It's something that I think
was overlooked when the data was imported and has annoyed the hell out of
me when I see it...

As for examples like "North York, Toronto" - some people still use the
pre-amalgamation borough names for the suburbs that were annexed into the
City of Toronto.  Sometimes it's for a very good purpose - there are
multiple King, Queen, Main, etc. streets in the current city.  In the cases
you found, since there are so few, i would suggest the former city names be
moved to the city:suburb tag and Toronto stays in the addr:city tag?

-Kevin

On 12 February 2018 at 17:53, James  wrote:

> i believe "city of" is redundant as its a classification vs a name.
>
> Would we say "village of maniwaki"? nope.
>
> On Feb 12, 2018 5:51 PM, "Matthew Darwin"  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am now reviewing the *addr**:city* tag.   Seems we are not very
>> consistent how we use it.  For example, Toronto:
>>
>>  110707 City of Toronto
>>9603 Toronto
>>   4 North York, Toronto
>>   2 Toronto, ON
>>   2 toronto
>>   1 York, Toronto
>>   1 Torontoitalian
>>   1 Toronto;City of Toronto
>>   1 Toronto
>>
>> Which is correct?  "*City of **Toronto*" or "*Toronto*"?   I would think
>> "Toronto"???   Why do people pick one over the other?
>>
>> There are more than 7000 unique names in Canada.  Below are the top 50.
>> Ottawa is not on the top of the list because there was a local decision to
>> not include the addr:city tag during address addition as there there are
>> many different "city" names since almagamation. (The official Canada Post
>> address still has the old municipality name prior to amalgamation while the
>> City of Ottawa works through de-duplicating street names).
>>
>>  110707 City of Toronto
>>  100066 Gatineau
>>   82606 Montréal
>>   79191 Surrey
>>   71932 Edmonton
>>   51096 Québec
>>   45716 City of Hamilton
>>   37232 Mississauga
>>   35763 Laval
>>   32029 Dartmouth
>>   30969 Kamloops
>>   27234 City of London
>>   25393 City of Brampton
>>   22881 Municipality of Chatham-Kent
>>   18534 Saguenay
>>   17921 Lévis
>>   17251 City of Vaughan
>>   16929 City of St. Catharines
>>   16796 Town of Markham
>>   16592 City of Kawartha Lakes
>>   16403 Trois-Rivières
>>   16086 City of Thunder Bay
>>   15788 Oakville
>>   15335 Sherbrooke
>>   14787 City of Niagara Falls
>>   14338 Norfolk County
>>   13966 City of Kingston
>>   13939 Fredericton
>>   12085 City of Oshawa
>>   11966 Saanich
>>   11950 Calgary
>>   11382 Terrebonne
>>   11332 Richmond Hill
>>   11321 City of Barrie
>>   11080 Town of Fort Erie
>>   10986 Cole Harbour
>>   10981 City of Burlington
>>   10641 Town of Whitby
>>   10635 Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu
>>   10455 Drummondville
>>   10347 City of Guelph
>>9906 Municipality of Clarington
>>9666 City of Brantford
>>9603 Toronto
>>9487 Shawinigan
>>9384 City of Sarnia
>>9380 Red Deer
>>9102 City of Windsor
>>9044 City Of Sault Ste. Marie
>>8466 Sudbury
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Formatting of Municipality Names

2018-02-12 Thread James
i believe "city of" is redundant as its a classification vs a name.

Would we say "village of maniwaki"? nope.

On Feb 12, 2018 5:51 PM, "Matthew Darwin"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am now reviewing the *addr**:city* tag.   Seems we are not very
> consistent how we use it.  For example, Toronto:
>
>  110707 City of Toronto
>9603 Toronto
>   4 North York, Toronto
>   2 Toronto, ON
>   2 toronto
>   1 York, Toronto
>   1 Torontoitalian
>   1 Toronto;City of Toronto
>   1 Toronto
>
> Which is correct?  "*City of **Toronto*" or "*Toronto*"?   I would think
> "Toronto"???   Why do people pick one over the other?
>
> There are more than 7000 unique names in Canada.  Below are the top 50.
> Ottawa is not on the top of the list because there was a local decision to
> not include the addr:city tag during address addition as there there are
> many different "city" names since almagamation. (The official Canada Post
> address still has the old municipality name prior to amalgamation while the
> City of Ottawa works through de-duplicating street names).
>
>  110707 City of Toronto
>  100066 Gatineau
>   82606 Montréal
>   79191 Surrey
>   71932 Edmonton
>   51096 Québec
>   45716 City of Hamilton
>   37232 Mississauga
>   35763 Laval
>   32029 Dartmouth
>   30969 Kamloops
>   27234 City of London
>   25393 City of Brampton
>   22881 Municipality of Chatham-Kent
>   18534 Saguenay
>   17921 Lévis
>   17251 City of Vaughan
>   16929 City of St. Catharines
>   16796 Town of Markham
>   16592 City of Kawartha Lakes
>   16403 Trois-Rivières
>   16086 City of Thunder Bay
>   15788 Oakville
>   15335 Sherbrooke
>   14787 City of Niagara Falls
>   14338 Norfolk County
>   13966 City of Kingston
>   13939 Fredericton
>   12085 City of Oshawa
>   11966 Saanich
>   11950 Calgary
>   11382 Terrebonne
>   11332 Richmond Hill
>   11321 City of Barrie
>   11080 Town of Fort Erie
>   10986 Cole Harbour
>   10981 City of Burlington
>   10641 Town of Whitby
>   10635 Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu
>   10455 Drummondville
>   10347 City of Guelph
>9906 Municipality of Clarington
>9666 City of Brantford
>9603 Toronto
>9487 Shawinigan
>9384 City of Sarnia
>9380 Red Deer
>9102 City of Windsor
>9044 City Of Sault Ste. Marie
>8466 Sudbury
>
>
> --
> Matthew Darwinmatthew@mdarwin.cahttp://www.mdarwin.ca
>
>
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>
>
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