Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging "Shared space" roads (Preston City Centre)

[Colin Smale]

And here's a road that wants to be a shared space but isn't there yet...

https://www.facebook.com/NHnieuws/videos/1627424217288914/ 

The goal of reducing the traffic speed has been achieved, apparently. 

On 2017-10-01 20:16, Richard Mann wrote:

> The classic shared space scheme in Haren: 
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/53.17312/6.60310 
> 
> has no tags that I can see. 
> 
> I'd go for something like shared_space=yes for the moment. It's a "special" 
> type of traffic calming. 
> 
> On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 6:14 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
> Just like in the UK, the councils here make it up as they go along; a "shared 
> space" has no special legal status, unlike a "woonerf". 
> 
> A general principle which has proved its worth is that to make things safer, 
> you remove the safety features. Like white lines and kerbs. Everyone moans a 
> bit, but in the mean time you slow down and watch out just that little bit 
> more... Hence shared spaces, an apparent free-for-all that works well.
> 
> On 2017-10-01 18:57, Andy Townsend wrote: 
> Not an answer, but a suggestion where there might be a bit more info...
> 
> The Netherlands forum https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=12 [1] 
> might be worth a read, since the shared space concept was pioneered there; 
> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=54843 [2] is directly about 
> "shared_space" but a search for "woonerf" (aka "home zone") gets a whole 
> bunch more hits.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Andy
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging "Shared space" roads (Preston City Centre)

[Richard Mann]

The classic shared space scheme in Haren:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/53.17312/6.60310

has no tags that I can see.

I'd go for something like shared_space=yes for the moment. It's a "special"
type of traffic calming.

On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 6:14 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:

> Just like in the UK, the councils here make it up as they go along; a
> "shared space" has no special legal status, unlike a "woonerf".
>
> A general principle which has proved its worth is that to make things
> safer, you remove the safety features. Like white lines and kerbs. Everyone
> moans a bit, but in the mean time you slow down and watch out just that
> little bit more... Hence shared spaces, an apparent free-for-all that works
> well.
>
> On 2017-10-01 18:57, Andy Townsend wrote:
>
> Not an answer, but a suggestion where there might be a bit more info...
>
> The Netherlands forum https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=12
> might be worth a read, since the shared space concept was pioneered there;
> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=54843 is directly about
> "shared_space" but a search for "woonerf" (aka "home zone") gets a whole
> bunch more hits.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging "Shared space" roads (Preston City Centre)

[Colin Smale]

Just like in the UK, the councils here make it up as they go along; a
"shared space" has no special legal status, unlike a "woonerf". 

A general principle which has proved its worth is that to make things
safer, you remove the safety features. Like white lines and kerbs.
Everyone moans a bit, but in the mean time you slow down and watch out
just that little bit more... Hence shared spaces, an apparent
free-for-all that works well. 

On 2017-10-01 18:57, Andy Townsend wrote:

> Not an answer, but a suggestion where there might be a bit more info...
> 
> The Netherlands forum https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=12 
> might be worth a read, since the shared space concept was pioneered there; 
> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=54843 is directly about 
> "shared_space" but a search for "woonerf" (aka "home zone") gets a whole 
> bunch more hits.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Andy
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging "Shared space" roads (Preston City Centre)

[Andy Townsend]

Not an answer, but a suggestion where there might be a bit more info...

The Netherlands forum 
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=12 might be worth a 
read, since the shared space concept was pioneered there; 
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=54843 is directly about 
"shared_space" but a search for "woonerf" (aka "home zone") gets a whole 
bunch more hits.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging "Shared space" roads (Preston City Centre)

[Adam Snape]

My original solution when I changed the living streets back to normal roads
a few months back was to just add extra tags to highlight the features of
the scheme: access, traffic calming, surface, maxspeed:practical etc. I
have just received a message from contributor 'lakedistrict' who raised the
issue back then, supporting the way I tagged the roads.

Andy, this scheme does have its own signs
https://designnotes.blog.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/53/2014/07/Screen-Shot-2014-07-07-at-12.15.04.png
but it doesn't seem to be an official designation in the same way as Home
Zones/Quiet Lanes so maybe if it needs a specific tag, 'designation' isn't
entirely appropriate. Is it better considered a form of traffic calming?
How about traffic_calming=shared_space?

Michael, thanks for the Poynton example. To me that clearly shows why it
shouldn't be a separate category of highway. It looks like two A roads and
a tertiary road cease to exist upon entering the town centre. There is a
tertiary road similarly affected in Preston

Adam



On 1 October 2017 at 16:58, Michael Booth  wrote:

> One of the first edits I did in OSM was to change my local high street to
> a tertiary road from a living_street. I think I noticed it because it's
> rendered different by osm-carto and some routers wouldn't use the road for
> directions.
>
> It's a 20mph two lane road, except with three traffic calming tables (one
> of which is a pelican crossing), and some larger pavements after
> improvement works reclaimed some parking spaces - so not somewhere like a
> "home zone".
>
> I read about the "shared space" scheme in Poynton, which seemed to be
> about narrowing/redesigning the roads to reduce speeds, and allowing
> pedestrians to cross almost anyway. However I think it's marked wrongly as
> a living_street in OSM: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/19753268/history
> - funnily enough also by Pete Owens...
>
>
> On 01/10/2017 14:12, Adam Snape wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Over the past couple of years Fishergate, the high street in Preston, and
> some surrounding streets have been redeveloped and these highways are now
> designated as 'shared space' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space
>
> Following redeveleopment these were mapped as "highway=living_street".
> Earlier this year fellow mapper 'lakedistrict' left a note saying that this
> seemed incorrect as this wasn't a residential scheme, I agreed and changed
> the roads to unclassified highways (+ 1 tertiary), adding traffic calming,
> surface and access tags as appropriate. These roads have recently been
> changed back to highway-=living_street by another mapper 'Pete Owens'
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/52072635
>
> To move things forward I would like others' opinions about how we should
> map such shared space schemes Are we happy to broaden the definition of
> living_street to include them or are they better mapped as ordinary streets
> with additional tags? Another potential option which I toyed with was
> mapping them as highway=pedestrian, adding access tags (bicycles are
> permitted, motor vehicle access varies across the area from 24/7
> thoroughfares, to time conditional/destination/psv only access).
>
> I'll draw lakedistrict and Pete Owens' attentions to this email so that
> they can contribute to the discussion.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Adam (ACS1986)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging "Shared space" roads (Preston City Centre)

[Michael Booth]

One of the first edits I did in OSM was to change my local high street 
to a tertiary road from a living_street. I think I noticed it because 
it's rendered different by osm-carto and some routers wouldn't use the 
road for directions.


It's a 20mph two lane road, except with three traffic calming tables 
(one of which is a pelican crossing), and some larger pavements after 
improvement works reclaimed some parking spaces - so not somewhere like 
a "home zone".


I read about the "shared space" scheme in Poynton, which seemed to be 
about narrowing/redesigning the roads to reduce speeds, and allowing 
pedestrians to cross almost anyway. However I think it's marked wrongly 
as a living_street in OSM: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/19753268/history - funnily enough also 
by Pete Owens...


On 01/10/2017 14:12, Adam Snape wrote:

Hi,

Over the past couple of years Fishergate, the high street in Preston, 
and some surrounding streets have been redeveloped and these highways 
are now designated as 'shared space' 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space


Following redeveleopment these were mapped as "highway=living_street". 
Earlier this year fellow mapper 'lakedistrict' left a note saying that 
this seemed incorrect as this wasn't a residential scheme, I agreed 
and changed the roads to unclassified highways (+ 1 tertiary), adding 
traffic calming, surface and access tags as appropriate. These roads 
have recently been changed back to highway-=living_street by another 
mapper 'Pete Owens' https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/52072635


To move things forward I would like others' opinions about how we 
should map such shared space schemes Are we happy to broaden the 
definition of living_street to include them or are they better mapped 
as ordinary streets with additional tags? Another potential option 
which I toyed with was mapping them as highway=pedestrian, adding 
access tags (bicycles are permitted, motor vehicle access varies 
across the area from 24/7 thoroughfares, to time 
conditional/destination/psv only access).


I'll draw lakedistrict and Pete Owens' attentions to this email so 
that they can contribute to the discussion.


Kind regards,

Adam (ACS1986)







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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging "Shared space" roads (Preston City Centre)

[Andy Townsend]

On 01/10/2017 14:47, Adam Snape wrote:



If a shared space is not a living street how should it be tagged?


For "quiet lanes" (which are sort-of a rural analogue to urban "home 
zones") I went with "designation", and it looks like I'm not the only one:


https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/designation=quiet_lane

I'm not sure if a shared space is a legal designation in the same way 
though.  Presumably you can tag any traffic rules in force, so that even 
consumers not expecting a particular tag can still do the right thing?


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging "Shared space" roads (Preston City Centre)

[Adam Snape]

Hi Colin,

I agree entirely (though note that the two share many of those features so
I can see where the argument comes from).

If a shared space is not a living street how should it be tagged?

Adam


On 1 October 2017 at 14:29, Colin Smale  wrote:

> It depends if you want to have a uniform basis for "living_street" across
> the world (well, Europe at least). The concept is well known and understood
> in continental Europe, and basically implies driving at walking pace, no
> separate pavements, no parking except in marked spaces, and all road users
> (including pedestrians!) have equal priority. Such streets are always
> residential in character.
>
> The UK implementation of this concept is known as a Home Zone [1].
>
> Shared space schemes (see [2]) are something different, aimed at town
> centre environments more than housing estates.
>
> So please DO NOT consider expanding living_street to include these shared
> spaces.
>
> //colin
>
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_zone
>
> [2] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/shared-space
>
>
> On 2017-10-01 15:12, Adam Snape wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Over the past couple of years Fishergate, the high street in Preston, and
> some surrounding streets have been redeveloped and these highways are now
> designated as 'shared space' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space
>
> Following redeveleopment these were mapped as "highway=living_street".
> Earlier this year fellow mapper 'lakedistrict' left a note saying that this
> seemed incorrect as this wasn't a residential scheme, I agreed and changed
> the roads to unclassified highways (+ 1 tertiary), adding traffic calming,
> surface and access tags as appropriate. These roads have recently been
> changed back to highway-=living_street by another mapper 'Pete Owens'
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/52072635
>
> To move things forward I would like others' opinions about how we should
> map such shared space schemes Are we happy to broaden the definition of
> living_street to include them or are they better mapped as ordinary streets
> with additional tags? Another potential option which I toyed with was
> mapping them as highway=pedestrian, adding access tags (bicycles are
> permitted, motor vehicle access varies across the area from 24/7
> thoroughfares, to time conditional/destination/psv only access).
>
> I'll draw lakedistrict and Pete Owens' attentions to this email so that
> they can contribute to the discussion.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Adam (ACS1986)
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging "Shared space" roads (Preston City Centre)

[Colin Smale]

It depends if you want to have a uniform basis for "living_street"
across the world (well, Europe at least). The concept is well known and
understood in continental Europe, and basically implies driving at
walking pace, no separate pavements, no parking except in marked spaces,
and all road users (including pedestrians!) have equal priority. Such
streets are always residential in character. 

The UK implementation of this concept is known as a Home Zone [1]. 

Shared space schemes (see [2]) are something different, aimed at town
centre environments more than housing estates. 

So please DO NOT consider expanding living_street to include these
shared spaces. 

//colin 

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_zone 

[2] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/shared-space 

On 2017-10-01 15:12, Adam Snape wrote:

> Hi, 
> 
> Over the past couple of years Fishergate, the high street in Preston, and 
> some surrounding streets have been redeveloped and these highways are now 
> designated as 'shared space' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space
> 
> Following redeveleopment these were mapped as "highway=living_street". 
> Earlier this year fellow mapper 'lakedistrict' left a note saying that this 
> seemed incorrect as this wasn't a residential scheme, I agreed and changed 
> the roads to unclassified highways (+ 1 tertiary), adding traffic calming, 
> surface and access tags as appropriate. These roads have recently been 
> changed back to highway-=living_street by another mapper 'Pete Owens' 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/52072635 
> 
> To move things forward I would like others' opinions about how we should map 
> such shared space schemes Are we happy to broaden the definition of 
> living_street to include them or are they better mapped as ordinary streets 
> with additional tags? Another potential option which I toyed with was mapping 
> them as highway=pedestrian, adding access tags (bicycles are permitted, motor 
> vehicle access varies across the area from 24/7 thoroughfares, to time 
> conditional/destination/psv only access). 
> 
> I'll draw lakedistrict and Pete Owens' attentions to this email so that they 
> can contribute to the discussion. 
> 
> Kind regards, 
> 
> Adam (ACS1986) 
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging "Shared space" roads (Preston City Centre)

[David Woolley]

On 01/10/17 14:12, Adam Snape wrote:
To move things forward I would like others' opinions about how we should 
map such shared space schemes Are we happy to broaden the definition of 
living_street to include them or are they better mapped as ordinary 
streets with additional tags? Another potential


I would say that they are not "living streets".

Note that the UK term for a real "living street" is actually "home 
zone", and I think that is what you will see on the signage that should 
be used to justify their mapping.


Shared use possibly needs its own highway tag.  It includes living 
streets, but is broader.


Living streets are more about things like children playing in them, 
which is not something that would be encouraged in a High Street.


(Searching on "Living Streets" gives false positives for a charity that 
encourages walking as a means of transport.)


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[Talk-GB] Tagging "Shared space" roads (Preston City Centre)

[Adam Snape]

Hi,

Over the past couple of years Fishergate, the high street in Preston, and
some surrounding streets have been redeveloped and these highways are now
designated as 'shared space' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space

Following redeveleopment these were mapped as "highway=living_street".
Earlier this year fellow mapper 'lakedistrict' left a note saying that this
seemed incorrect as this wasn't a residential scheme, I agreed and changed
the roads to unclassified highways (+ 1 tertiary), adding traffic calming,
surface and access tags as appropriate. These roads have recently been
changed back to highway-=living_street by another mapper 'Pete Owens'
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/52072635

To move things forward I would like others' opinions about how we should
map such shared space schemes Are we happy to broaden the definition of
living_street to include them or are they better mapped as ordinary streets
with additional tags? Another potential option which I toyed with was
mapping them as highway=pedestrian, adding access tags (bicycles are
permitted, motor vehicle access varies across the area from 24/7
thoroughfares, to time conditional/destination/psv only access).

I'll draw lakedistrict and Pete Owens' attentions to this email so that
they can contribute to the discussion.

Kind regards,

Adam (ACS1986)
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