Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

2017-11-16 Thread Andrew Black 
On 17 Nov 2017 04:14, "Andrew Black"  wrote:

"  I believe we need to be very clear about the licencing. All we have is
Ilya's word (and I don't dispute it but it is hardly verifiable) that Shell
has instructed a third party to map its petrol stations on various
platforms using a dataset it supplied'

Agree



I think we need assurance from Shell's legal department (or ay least
management we believe to be reasonably aware of licencing issues.)

An analogy  I was  once in a confused situation when I was volunteering
for org A.  An employee org B (sponsoring the project) said org C had said
it was ok to do print extracts their maps.  I suspect they had permission
to publish certain extract on website.  Org A printed extracts with no
attribution.As a volunteer my concerns were ignored.

Chinese whispers (is there a better phrase) are common in large
organisations.


I realise my example is a bit abstract but I don't want to break confidence.

On 16 Nov 2017 17:35, "Brian Prangle"  wrote:

> This is something that could be done officially by the UK OSM chapter
>
> On 16 November 2017 at 13:05, Lester Caine  wrote:
>
>> On 16/11/17 12:48, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
>> >> Here's a strawman to start the discussion:
>> >>
>> >> Use Harry Wood's improved visualisation as a progress checker, with a
>> colour
>> >> change for  missing filling stations to red
>> >> Get active mappers to add/amend data around their localities or
>> journeys
>> >> Change marker colour for filling stations that are "complete" with
>> Shell
>> >> data where it is correct to green
>> >> Watch the map turn green as we make progress
>> > That sounds good to me. The one issue I have with the import though is
>> > the reference numbers being proposed. As I think someone already noted
>> > in the previous discussion, these seem to belong to the third-party
>> > rather than being an official branch number assigned by Shell.
>>
>> Anybody asked Spar if we can use THEIR list of 1054 forecourts to add
>> even more detail to this. Certainly many Shell and BP forecourts are
>> owned and run by Spar and not Shell or BP ...
>>
>> --
>> Lester Caine - G8HFL
>> -
>> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
>> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
>> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
>> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
>> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Reception desks

2017-11-16 Thread Warin 
One person raised the interesting possibility of  the 'reception desk' 
being 'staffed' remotely .. with a video terminal. I suppose that one 
receptionist could serve several points for the one organisation.

In that situation the 'desk' may be a shelf.

Personally I would be happy with 'reception desks' being a simple node 
rather than a way or area.


---
Reception area or waiting area ? Not too worried about that or what it 
is called. To me the most important thing is where to go as a visitor 
for first contact.
Once that is done I would think further instruction would be gained.  So 
I am not too worried about mapping it. So I leave it up to those concerned?


On 16-Nov-17 11:58 PM, Edward Catmur wrote:



On 16 Nov 2017 01:01, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


A reception desk may not have a reception area?
Think I'd want to know where the desk is so I go there and am
directed to an area or straight on to what I want?


Ah, hadn't thought of that. So would you say that a reception desk is 
a staffed information facility while a reception area is more like a 
waiting room (though it may have a reception desk within or beside it)?


In which case there would be reason to use both tags when mapping the 
same overall facility.




On 16-Nov-17 11:04 AM, Edward Catmur wrote:



On 15 Nov 2017 20:15, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com
> wrote:

From tag info
amenity=reception_desk 121 uses
tourism=reception_desk 3 uses
office=reception_desk 0 uses

There are a few buildings named 'Reception', I think those
are not named but used to indicate where the reception
function is.
I have one of these myself.




However:

amenity=reception_area 111 uses






On 15-Nov-17 10:03 PM, Marc Gemis wrote:

There was a proposal for this:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/amenity%3Dreception_desk



but since people could not agree on amenity vs. tourism
vs. office
during the voting process, it got rejected.
There is probably a lengthy discussion on the tagging
mailing list
archive about the proposal.

I still believe amenity=reception_desk could be used though.

regards

m.

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Will Bailey
> wrote:

Hi



I’m doing some internal mapping of hospitals in North
Wales with the
objective of allowing people to navigate from their
front doors to the front
desk of a relevant hospital department in our
accessible journey planner. I
haven’t been able to find a definitive way to tag a
reception desk – can
anyone help me with this please? Is their agreed
approach to doing this?

Thanks!

Will


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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

2017-11-16 Thread Ilya Zverev 

Hi everyone,

Thank you Brian for pushing this forward. The ongoing discussion (and 
reminders from a NavAds employee) have made me start developing the 
auditing tool for imported data. Hopefully next week I'll give you all a 
link where you can check every imported object one by one, and alter the 
data.


Harry's visualisation was merged into my map. Alas, colours there do not 
work as you think they do: blue means modified existing objects, green — 
new nodes to be added to OSM. Tracking the progress with the 
visualization would be complicated, since we don't have any means to 
store your verdicts on each point.


As for the questions about license and location quality, I answered 
these in May:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-May/020216.html

Robert, I don't have official branch numbers from Shell. Identifiers 
that are being added in "ref:navads_shell" will be used for updating the 
data, to skip the matching step.


Thanks,
Ilya

16.11.2017 20:34, Brian Prangle пишет:

This is something that could be done officially by the UK OSM chapter

On 16 November 2017 at 13:05, Lester Caine > wrote:


On 16/11/17 12:48, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
>> Here's a strawman to start the discussion:
>>
>> Use Harry Wood's improved visualisation as a progress checker, with a 
colour
>> change for  missing filling stations to red
>> Get active mappers to add/amend data around their localities or journeys
>> Change marker colour for filling stations that are "complete" with Shell
>> data where it is correct to green
>> Watch the map turn green as we make progress
> That sounds good to me. The one issue I have with the import though is
> the reference numbers being proposed. As I think someone already noted
> in the previous discussion, these seem to belong to the third-party
> rather than being an official branch number assigned by Shell.

Anybody asked Spar if we can use THEIR list of 1054 forecourts to add
even more detail to this. Certainly many Shell and BP forecourts are
owned and run by Spar and not Shell or BP ...

--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact

L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk


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Re: [Talk-GB] Welsh language map

2017-11-16 Thread Brian Prangle 
Hi Ben

Congratulations! You will no doubt get much practical assistance from
individual OSMers but if there's any organisational assistance I'm sure the
OSM UK chapter will do its best to assist - after all this was one of our
first priorities!

Regards

brian

On 15 November 2017 at 13:31, Ben Proctor  wrote:

> Hi all
>
> The Welsh Government announced yesterday a grant to ODI-Cardiff to fund
> some work around the Welsh language on OSM.
>
> This is our announcement
>
> In English http://cardiff.theodi.org/2017/11/14/map-i-gymru/
> and in Welsh http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/2017/11/14/map-i-gymru/
>
> In the way of these things, the funding application was put together at
> the last minute and, though we heard a couple of weeks ago that we would be
> getting the grant we couldn't talk about it publicly until yesterday.
>
> We hope to:
> - create a Welsh language tileserver (building on the excellent cysom
> project)
> - do some work to encourage tagging in the Welsh language and to encourage
> more mapping in Wales
> - encourage organisations in Wales (including the public sector) to make
> more use of OSM including by demonstrating one or two simple Welsh
> language uses
>
> The funding covers a project until end of March and we will also be
> looking for opportunities for ongoing funding/support to keep the server
> infrastructure viable into the medium term.
>
> We have contacted a few people off list to talk about this project but I'm
> conscious that there are people who have been very actively mapping in
> Wales for some time who we haven't had the chance to contact.
>
> We really hope to work with the whole community on this. Any suggestions,
> insights, ideas, "definitely don't do this..." experiences etc would be
> very gratefully received.
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> Ben Proctor
> ODI-Cardiff / The Satori Lab
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

2017-11-16 Thread Brian Prangle 
This is something that could be done officially by the UK OSM chapter

On 16 November 2017 at 13:05, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 16/11/17 12:48, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
> >> Here's a strawman to start the discussion:
> >>
> >> Use Harry Wood's improved visualisation as a progress checker, with a
> colour
> >> change for  missing filling stations to red
> >> Get active mappers to add/amend data around their localities or journeys
> >> Change marker colour for filling stations that are "complete" with Shell
> >> data where it is correct to green
> >> Watch the map turn green as we make progress
> > That sounds good to me. The one issue I have with the import though is
> > the reference numbers being proposed. As I think someone already noted
> > in the previous discussion, these seem to belong to the third-party
> > rather than being an official branch number assigned by Shell.
>
> Anybody asked Spar if we can use THEIR list of 1054 forecourts to add
> even more detail to this. Certainly many Shell and BP forecourts are
> owned and run by Spar and not Shell or BP ...
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

2017-11-16 Thread Lester Caine 
On 16/11/17 12:48, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) wrote:
>> Here's a strawman to start the discussion:
>>
>> Use Harry Wood's improved visualisation as a progress checker, with a colour
>> change for  missing filling stations to red
>> Get active mappers to add/amend data around their localities or journeys
>> Change marker colour for filling stations that are "complete" with Shell
>> data where it is correct to green
>> Watch the map turn green as we make progress
> That sounds good to me. The one issue I have with the import though is
> the reference numbers being proposed. As I think someone already noted
> in the previous discussion, these seem to belong to the third-party
> rather than being an official branch number assigned by Shell.

Anybody asked Spar if we can use THEIR list of 1054 forecourts to add
even more detail to this. Certainly many Shell and BP forecourts are
owned and run by Spar and not Shell or BP ...

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Reception desks

2017-11-16 Thread Edward Catmur 
On 16 Nov 2017 01:01, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

A reception desk may not have a reception area?
Think I'd want to know where the desk is so I go there and am directed to
an area or straight on to what I want?


Ah, hadn't thought of that. So would you say that a reception desk is a
staffed information facility while a reception area is more like a waiting
room (though it may have a reception desk within or beside it)?

In which case there would be reason to use both tags when mapping the same
overall facility.



On 16-Nov-17 11:04 AM, Edward Catmur wrote:



On 15 Nov 2017 20:15, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>From tag info
amenity=reception_desk 121 uses
tourism=reception_desk 3 uses
office=reception_desk 0 uses

There are a few buildings named 'Reception', I think those are not named
but used to indicate where the reception function is.
I have one of these myself.





However:

amenity=reception_area 111 uses






On 15-Nov-17 10:03 PM, Marc Gemis wrote:

> There was a proposal for this:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/amenit
> y%3Dreception_desk
>
> but since people could not agree on amenity vs. tourism vs. office
> during the voting process, it got rejected.
> There is probably a lengthy discussion on the tagging mailing list
> archive about the proposal.
>
> I still believe amenity=reception_desk could be used though.
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Will Bailey  wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m doing some internal mapping of hospitals in North Wales with the
>> objective of allowing people to navigate from their front doors to the
>> front
>> desk of a relevant hospital department in our accessible journey planner.
>> I
>> haven’t been able to find a definitive way to tag a reception desk – can
>> anyone help me with this please? Is their agreed approach to doing this?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Will
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

2017-11-16 Thread Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
On 15 November 2017 at 18:38, Brian Prangle  wrote:
> Here's a strawman to start the discussion:
>
> Use Harry Wood's improved visualisation as a progress checker, with a colour
> change for  missing filling stations to red
> Get active mappers to add/amend data around their localities or journeys
> Change marker colour for filling stations that are "complete" with Shell
> data where it is correct to green
> Watch the map turn green as we make progress

That sounds good to me. The one issue I have with the import though is
the reference numbers being proposed. As I think someone already noted
in the previous discussion, these seem to belong to the third-party
rather than being an official branch number assigned by Shell. So I
don't think we should include these numbers in OSM. On the other hand,
having some form of id/key would certainly be useful in terms of
future updates to the data. I don't know exactly what Shell do, but
I've seen what I assume are branch reference numbers on display at a
couple of Shell petrol stations (I think in conjunction with the "fill
& go code" mobile payment system identifying each pump as a branch
number followed by a pump number). See e.g.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/248030653 Assuming these branch
numbers do exist and are expected to be stable, I think we should be
using them instead.

And +1 to Adam Snape's comments about licensing.

Robert.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Importing Shell fuel stations

2017-11-16 Thread Adam Snape 
Hi,

Most of that 'strawman' suggestion seems sensible and entirely the right
kind of way for the community to help companies add useful data to the map.
I do however, disagree with the penultimate point. I do not belive that we
should be automatically importing this kind of data. An omission is much
more easily noticed and solved than incorrect imported data.

To add another angle to this discussion. If we are to use these kinds of
datasets in the future  I believe we need to be very clear about the
licencing. All we have is Ilya's word (and I don't dispute it but it is
hardly verifiable) that Shell has instructed a third party to map its
petrol stations on various platforms using a dataset it supplied. Going
forward I believe that we ought to have explicit written permission or
confirmation of an open licence from the copyright holder before
considering importing datasets. Openstreetmap is different to many online
mapping platforms companies might add information to because it involves
the perpetual free public release of all information entered. Has Shell
explicitly consented to this information being released under the ODBL or
compatible licence? I also wonder how Shell obtained its co-ordinate
information and whether we can be reasonably confident that no other
organisation could claim copyright in this information as a derived work.

Adam



On 15 November 2017 at 18:38, Brian Prangle  wrote:

> Like most discussions we get a useful survey of opinion and some
> elucidation of the nature of the problem, with lots of suggestions, but no
> actual decision on how we are going to proceed, except maintain the status
> quo.  As one of the core objectives of the UK OSM Chapter is to "promote
> and facilitate the release by organisations in the United Kingdom of  data
> that is suitable for use in OpenStreetMap" I'd like to suggest we focus on
> how we can achieve that objective and use this dataset as  a template for a
> methodology we can adopt for future datasets. I might be wrong but I think
> this is the first UK- wide release of data from a commercial body rather
> than a public one and we need to encourage others.
>
> Here's a strawman to start the discussion:
>
> Use Harry Wood's improved visualisation as a progress checker, with a
> colour change for  missing filling stations to red
> Get active mappers to add/amend data around their localities or journeys
> Change marker colour for filling stations that are "complete" with Shell
> data where it is correct to green
> Watch the map turn green as we make progress
> We can get going on this straight away whilst we decide on POI checker or
> Map Roulette as a better tool
> Review progress- see if we need a Qarterly Project
> After   say 3 months, we should see how much the active mapping community
> can achieve, and maybe  import the remainder with a "Review=yes/no" tag
> Ask Shell to release their data on the rollout of ev charging points once
> we've made some progress (ev charging points is another story but as we
> move away from fossil fuels OSM can demonstrate its utility in keeping up
> to date for vehile navigation)
>
> Regards
>
> Brian
>
> .
>
> On 11 November 2017 at 17:36, Rory McCann  wrote:
>
>> On 06/11/17 16:45, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> > Some years ago, we had a data donation, here in the United Kingdom, of
>> > data on cycle shops. These were imported into a tool which (if memory
>> > serves) enabled users to compare them to existing entries, and import
>> > the data to them if useful, or add new objects if necessary. I recall
>> > that it didn't take long for the UK community to process them.
>> >
>> > Can that tool not be repurposed, and thereby avoid the friction that
>> > imports like this seem sadly to cause?
>>
>> I have come across this tool which is designed for "merging" in 3rd
>> party data into OSM in a semi-manual manner. But it's a bit rough around
>> the edges, with no way to add new datasets (I think)
>>
>>  http://poichecker.com/en
>>
>>
>>
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