Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Warin]

Hummm 

There area number of places around me that have name:ru ... yet there 
are no signs with this language on them.

And there are some in other languages too...

I see nothing wrong with that. These names do not have to be present on 
a local sign.


So I see nothing wrong with having name:cy where you may not find a sign 
with that Welsh name on it.


The "name" tag value should carry the value that the majority use in the 
local community, if that is reflected on local signs, good.


For rendering .. I would use the 'name' value where I wanted a map with 
the local names/languages.
Where I wanted to produce a map in a certain language - say English I 
would use the 'name:en', if that does not exist I'd use the fall back 
'name'.



On 26/03/18 23:04, Gregory wrote:
The OpenStreetMap rule for all time has been "what's on the ground is 
what we use", in the case of names that would be what's on the road 
signs.


I was in Wales last week and saw a mix of road names (I didn't focus 
on place names, but it should still stand):

1)Welshon top line, English below.
2) English on top line,Welshbelow.
3)Welshonly.
It seemed consistent for areas, maybe relating to how old the streets 
were or politics - I think this is interesting enough.


I would tag it the streets always with 2-3 name tags...
A) name:cy and name:en used whenever they are present on a sign. Do 
not transliterate. When we have a complete map, this then provides 
insight into the areas (where and % of roads) actually have Bilingual 
names.
B) You should additionally add a "name" value. My preference is for 
the name on the top line. I can see the argument for putting both/all 
names in, but I think this gets messy as OpenStreetMap doesn't have 
the concept of a separator.


The "name" tag is a used as a fallback (what a German-language map 
would show, what aWelsh-language map would show if no name:cy, etc). 
You should think of it as a fallback name, rather than a default name.
This can then provide us with insight, what streets haveWelshas the 
primary name (name:cy = name)?



While in Wales, I did do some filming so I could demonstrate how to 
map bilingual names/places. I've not finished the editing yet, but can 
share a link when it's published.



From England,
Gregory.


On 25 March 2018 at 23:13, ajt1...@gmail.com 
 > wrote:


On 25/03/2018 21:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:

...
Sorry to insist but you will undermine, especially, Welsh names,
for a generic rendering that uses "name" tags. Think about that.


Can you give a specific example of that?  Are you saying that
"it's important to pretend that Welsh names are displayed even
where they aren't used very often" by sticking them on the end of
the more commonly used name? The other way around (using Welsh in
"name" because it is the most used name) presumably wouldn't
"undermine ... Welsh names".  It could be that I'm completely
misunderstanding what you're saying here but I really don't follow
the argument at all.



Of course, for me, it's a must to fill "name:cy" and "name:en" too.


That's great news - it'll allow maps like
https://openstreetmap.cymru/ (and mine!) to render appropriate
names in appropriate areas.



On 25 March 2018 at 20:30, Curon Davies > wrote:

  * The fundamental problem is that there is no "name"
which is correct. In the medium term, as long as the
name:cy and name:en are correct then the value of
"name" should become less significant. Then it can be
up to the user to decide if they want to display
English, Welsh or both (and if both which language
taking priority).

The problem currently, is that display choice isn't available.



I don't think that that's actually true - I can think of at least
3 choices right now:

  * OSM "Standard map" (and a number of others), which just use
the "name" tag:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.88362/-5.26565


  * Openstreetmap.cymru, which uses "name:cy":


https://openstreetmap.cymru?h=51.88397494833407=-5.264972448348999=17



  * Mine, that show one of "name:cy", "name:en", "name:ga" or
"name" depending on location:



http://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=18=51.883531=-5.264898



and of course anyone making their own maps (Garmin etc.) can do
whatever they want.

Best Regards,

Andy

PS: Apologies to Curon if his message wasn't meant for the list -
I'm guessing that it was but that he's actually not 

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Gregory]

The OpenStreetMap rule for all time has been "what's on the ground is what
we use", in the case of names that would be what's on the road signs.

I was in Wales last week and saw a mix of road names (I didn't focus on
place names, but it should still stand):
1) Welsh on top line, English below.
2) English on top line, Welsh below.
3) Welsh only.
It seemed consistent for areas, maybe relating to how old the streets were
or politics - I think this is interesting enough.

I would tag it the streets always with 2-3 name tags...
A) name:cy and name:en used whenever they are present on a sign. Do not
transliterate. When we have a complete map, this then provides insight into
the areas (where and % of roads) actually have Bilingual names.
B) You should additionally add a "name" value. My preference is for the
name on the top line. I can see the argument for putting both/all names in,
but I think this gets messy as OpenStreetMap doesn't have the concept of a
separator.

The "name" tag is a used as a fallback (what a German-language map would
show, what a Welsh-language map would show if no name:cy, etc). You should
think of it as a fallback name, rather than a default name.
This can then provide us with insight, what streets have Welsh as the
primary name (name:cy = name)?


While in Wales, I did do some filming so I could demonstrate how to map
bilingual names/places. I've not finished the editing yet, but can share a
link when it's published.


>From England,
Gregory.


On 25 March 2018 at 23:13, ajt1...@gmail.com  wrote:

> On 25/03/2018 21:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
>
> ...
> Sorry to insist but you will undermine, especially, Welsh names, for a
> generic rendering that uses "name" tags. Think about that.
>
>
> Can you give a specific example of that?  Are you saying that "it's
> important to pretend that Welsh names are displayed even where they aren't
> used very often" by sticking them on the end of the more commonly used
> name?  The other way around (using Welsh in "name" because it is the most
> used name) presumably wouldn't "undermine ... Welsh names".  It could be
> that I'm completely misunderstanding what you're saying here but I really
> don't follow the argument at all.
>
>
> Of course, for me, it's a must to fill "name:cy" and "name:en" too.
>
>
> That's great news - it'll allow maps like https://openstreetmap.cymru/
> (and mine!) to render appropriate names in appropriate areas.
>
>
> On 25 March 2018 at 20:30, Curon Davies  wrote:
>
>>
>>>- The fundamental problem is that there is no "name" which is
>>>correct. In the medium term, as long as the name:cy and name:en are 
>>> correct
>>>then the value of "name" should become less significant. Then it can be 
>>> up
>>>to the user to decide if they want to display English, Welsh or both (and
>>>if both which language taking priority).
>>>
>>> The problem currently, is that display choice isn't available.
>>
>
> I don't think that that's actually true - I can think of at least 3
> choices right now:
>
>
>- OSM "Standard map" (and a number of others), which just use the
>"name" tag:
>
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.88362/-5.26565
>
>
>- Openstreetmap.cymru, which uses "name:cy":
>
>
> https://openstreetmap.cymru?h=51.88397494833407=-5.
> 264972448348999=17
>
>
>- Mine, that show one of "name:cy", "name:en", "name:ga" or "name"
>depending on location:
>
>
> http://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=18=
> 51.883531=-5.264898
>
> and of course anyone making their own maps (Garmin etc.) can do whatever
> they want.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
> PS: Apologies to Curon if his message wasn't meant for the list - I'm
> guessing that it was but that he's actually not subscribed yet and his
> reply went both to that and Miguel.
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>


-- 
Gregory
o...@livingwithdragons.com
http://www.livingwithdragons.com
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